I've had it with Zero Tolerance policies in schools. They are the most idiotic garbage ever.

[Danger Mouse]

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=105&topic_id=7189263&mesg_id=7189263
    Here it is, in action again. I don't know how many times I've read in the news about some kid getting arrested or suspended or even CHARGED over some inane, harmless shit that nobody would've batted an eye at ten years ago. It's getting absurd.
With No Child Left Behind, children are not taught to think critically, only to take tests. Ridiculous and arbitrary penalties for minor offenses grinds down children and oppresses them and teaches them to fear and hate authority.
Schools are being run like prisons, and we are treating our children like criminals. I said it elsewhere, but I will say it here too. That will come back to haunt us some day.
    What the hell is the point in any of this anyway? Who honestly wants to see a kid arrested or suspended for scribbling on their desk or kissing someone or god forbid, drawing a picture of a gun? Who is actually in SUPPORT of this garbage? Hysterical, fanatical, nanny state whackos who would be more than happy to give up their own freedom in order to be free from fear, but live in fear anyway. They're more than happy to do the same to their children.
I hear people today complaining CONSTANTLY about how kids are nowadays. Bullshit! Why are they the way they are? Families are breaking down...with the weakening of the middle class, families are under strain, forced to work multiple jobs, have less times for kids. In school, children are expected to be robots, and any break with the status quo can land them in deep shit. Kids never know when it's going to be them that's hauled up for some draconian punishment because they pointed a finger at someone and said pow.
We live in an informed age, but our society is backsliding and science is under assault by idiotic fundies trying to force schools to tout their narrow views. Our country is in the toilet, and so is the environment, and who's going to be the ones to suffer for it? Our kids.
    On top of this garbage, we have 'Zero Tolerance,' an idiotic system for idiots, which is supposedly designed to protect scared idiots from the threat of school shootings. This is moronic thinking to the highest degree: punish any inappropriate behavior as harshly as possible, that'll learn the little bastards! Did they do this kind of garbage when you were a kid? Even when I was a kid?? (I graduated high school in 2000) Of course not! People had some fucking sense back then. Zero tolerance won't do shit to prevent school shootings. You think if some kid wants to shoot up his school, he's going to care about a zero tolerance policy? If that were true, no laws would ever be broken!
    Zero tolerance is useless, and all it does is hurt decent kids who screw up but aren't really hurting anyone. All I know, is if anything like this ever happened to my little sister, I would be right up the school board's ass until they were crying for mommy. We've let our country become a nation of fear, where we pass our hysterical, irrational idiocy onto our children. Kids aren't allowed to be kids anymore...when they are, they risk arrest and being charged as an adult!
It does serve one purpose, however: crushing the spirits of the youth so that they are already cowed by authority before they even reach adulthood.
    God bless America, land of fear and ignorance.

[madeline_con]

1. Kids are "the way they are" because so many people

SUCK at parenting. Bottom line.

[Danger Mouse]

4. Yes, I know that is a cause...I've seen some of the worst parents you can imagine in my work...

and have horror stories that could make you weep or vomit.
Some people are just lousy parents because they're stupid or lazy or not suited to raise children...others are too worn out from working all the time and stressed from having no money to do much parenting.
It's not so simple.
Kids get messed up for lots of reasons. 'Bad parenting' isn't the only cause.
Trust me on this one.

[madeline_con]

13. The admin can be just as problematic

We had a call go out on the bus radio system a couple weeks back. A kid was threatening to blow up the bus. They did not stop the bus, call police, just said they'd better write him up.

The following morning, another call. Should the bus transport the kid? He's at the stop.

Sure, go ahead, we'll write him up on arrival.

I saw the kid tge other day getting off the bus.

And today, getting on after school.

[Danger Mouse]

15. That's absurd. A bomb threat warrants more than that.

Inconsistency doesn't help things any, either.

[madeline_con]

23. He's just the type who'd flip out, too.

According to all who know him.

[Fresh_Start]

2. How about threatened expulsion because two grade school

boys use their fingers to make guns and go 'bang bang' with each other while they are playing together.....

[Danger Mouse]

8. My friends and I used to beat the crap out of each other in school.

We played games like 'kill the carrier'...can you imagine kids doing that today?
What the hell is wrong with us as a country?

[Rabrrrrrr]

3. No no no - families are breaking down because of Rosie and Janet's exposed nipple.

It has NOTHING to do with Republican economic policy.

It's TOTALLY about Hollywood and other liberal scum peddling their filth.

Absolutely NOTHING to do with Republican Big Brother Government or pull-yourself-up prosperity-gospel nincompoopery.




I'm with you - zero tolerance, like No Child Left Behind, is a great big fucking pile of shit.

[Danger Mouse]

9. You're wrong about that, dude.

It's gay marriage. Gay marriage is causing all of this.

Don't even get me started on No Child Left Behind...it's educational policy written by buffoons with no concept of what good education is.

[JenniferJuniper]

33. Gay marriage, nipples and Charles Darwin

are all responsible.

Replace science class with Bible study and America will be back on top again.

[Danger Mouse]

34. Mandatory 'praise Jesus' time! What a fantastic idea!

Screw non-Christians. If they don't like it, we'll 'zero tolerance' them, too!

[Progressive_In_NC]

47. I blame the tax structure

I'll be honest, I make enough money that my wife can afford to choose to be at home and care for our children.

But if two people make 70,000 a year between them, they can be assured that they are going to have to pay:

1. Federal Tax
2. State Tax
3. Local Tax
4. Vehicle Tax
5. Sales Tax
6. Property Tax
7. Gas Tax


My dad is a union guy, but he tells me that when he got his first job in the late 50s, it was enough for a family of four to live on. Now he pays 35-40% of his overall income in taxes (as opposed to about 9% back then).

My neighbors swear that if not for the taxes at all levels of government, they'd be able to have him stay at home with their kids (she's a PM and makes more money).

NC has a top income tax rate of 9%. I pay that, but we have enough. I'd hate to try to make it on 30K less with the feds taking 17% and the state taking 7% and the rest taking another 3-5%.

When your first 20k of your 60K a year salary is gone, it makes like hard for a family of 4 or more.

[provis99]

48. taxes aren't the problem

Its the fact that wages have been declining since the early '70s.

[Danger Mouse]

51. bingo. wages haven't risen to match inflation.

and therefore, what seems like a lot of money 20 years ago is nothing today.

[VP505]

5. Zero tolerance

isn't the problem, its the people that think that "zero tolerance" has to mean max punishment no matter what the circumstance that's the problem.

[Danger Mouse]

6. That's what it's become, though...zero tolerance means max penalties.

It's a rancid system, and just an excuse for schools to abuse powers.
It should be done away with entirely, because the schools are obviously unable to handle the system in a sane or ethical manner.

[JVS]

63. The alternative is, "Johnnie gets breaks because he's well connected" "Mike gets the shaft because..

his family is trash"

Both situations suck

[Danger Mouse]

65. The best alternative is somewhere in between.

[JVS]

66. So you want playing favorites and iniquity, but only to a tasteful degree?

;-)

It's a hard nut to crack. That's all I'm trying to say

[Danger Mouse]

67. No. But be realistic.

We're never going to entirely do away with favoritism and iniquity.
We're also never going to entirely do away with idiocy and capriciousness on the part of school administrators.
That's why the best option is to have a system were both are moderately contained.

[NuttyFluffers]

70. that's technically a red herring (but valid 2ndary concern)

punishment w/o regard to context of the act is not equal in relation to punishment w/ regard to infractor's social strata. the either/or dichotomy constructed here correlating the two is false. but human society is complex and both issues are crucial in understanding the nature of crime and punishment. we can place higher expectations of perception and judgment on both separate spectrums.

:hug:

[Mojorabbit]

7. It is about teaching the next generation

to be sheep and to bend over and take it. When I was in school in the early 70's none of this was even thought of.

[Danger Mouse]

10. When I was in school in the LATE 90'S things weren't like this!

And I was a problem kid in high school...i can't even imagine what it would be like for me today!
I count my blessings I wasn't born a few years later...

[noamnety]

27. I think the ideal is a bit of both extremes.

In the early 70's, people who were getting harassed at school were told to bend over and take it.

It took a lot of activism for schools to step up to the place and take action against bullies and harassment. There was a time when girls had to sometimes just accept getting groped on on the bus, or having boys lift their skirts up to expose their underwear, all sorts of dumb shit. When my mom went to high school (in the 50's), she regularly had people threaten her with knives for her homework.

So I'd caution against the "good old days" mentality. The good old days often prioritized people based on some magic combination of privilege and brute strength and meanness.

Allowing harassment to go unchecked isn't the answer. vpilot is right. It's not zero tolerance that's the problem, it's mandatory maximum punishments.

[Danger Mouse]

30. Well, yeah, something needs to be done about bullying and harrassment...

we often say 'zero tolerance for teasing' in the classroom i work in, and hey, it works. We know how to deal with bullies, too. Harshly. But not arbitrarily or stupidly.

[Mojorabbit]

41. That wasn't my experience

in the seventies. We had walkouts, sitins, and protests and the most that happened was detention or a short suspension. We pushed the envelope and the consequences were not severe.

[Trillo]

11. Yes, zero tolerance is one authoritarian's tool of control.

Suspended for 10 days because of a photo? Seems extreme.

I've said for years on this board, and will say it again, when a school expels (perhaps suspension as well), the child should be released from further compulsory education. If they're not, there's a conflicting message sent that cannot be resolved from the kid's point-of-view. ("I was expelled, but I must go to school") That doesn't teach logic, but rather illogic: it is a secular policy of fundamentalism.

Perhaps this internally created mental conflict is the machine's main point, as it tends to cause one to mistrust one's self, therefore training one to look to "authority" for all answers. Curiously, the system requires one to answer test questions without looking to authority. It's one sequential mental paradox after another.

Perhaps these constructs of illogic are where zero tolerance should be directed.

[Danger Mouse]

14. Not just suspended, but possibly charged with a crime! As an adult!

Doesn't it make you want to :banghead: or :puke:??

Our society's autoritarian nature has really come out of the woodwork in recent years. We're such a meek and scared people...willing to accept our punishment and subject our children to same out of fear of the supreme authority.
How did we become so weak?

[Trillo]

36. Just a guess: We've been watching too much TV

All those pictures, that most often are fictional, have warped our minds perception of reality. Note that there are many shows whose main theme center around authority: Law and Order, for one, but there are many others. So much gratuitous violence is shown in some movies, as another example, perhaps we are all looking for the subtle signal the precedes great violence, then presume the worst when it comes to kids' behavior.

Oh, my, SueBob took an unflatering photo of a teacher, so this show of disrespect is the signal of greater disrespects to come, it is presumed. Nip it in the bud.... PREEMPTION.

[Danger Mouse]

38. yeah, preemption is all the rage these days.

we treat all kids like potential criminals, plain and simple.

[Occulus]

69. It sounds as if this incident will put her on the state's sex offender registry

which, in most states if not all, is life.

If that is true, her future is over. She doesn't have a chance of any sort of successful life.

For taking a photo of a teacher's ass.

We. Are. Mad. Batshit crazy. Totally fucking looney tunes.

[Thothmes]

72. zero tolerance

I tend to view it as something other than an authoritarian tool of control. I see it as a convienient way to evade any responsibility for having to make a decision. Zero tolerance policies relieves school officials of having to make a judgment on these type of issues. Since they are bound by a zero tolerance policy, they are not responsible for their decisions. This is just the opposite of authoritarians who work to expand the areas of control that they are the decision makers in.

[Trillo]

74. I agree with some of what you say,

but view your idea versus mine as laying along different logical axes. In your idea, the officials are simply implementing someone or some groups' policy, therefore they don't need to think or be responsible. In mine, the child gets expelled or suspended due to the actions of the school officials: this is control exerted by the officials as authoritarians. So the logistical difference to some degree has to do with one being an outward manifestation (mine) and yours seems more centered inwardly within the mind(s) of the official(s).
      Another way of viewing a difference between our two views is point of view. I took a student's point of view: yours seems from the officials. These are not necessarily in conflict. From the student's POV, the officials action is an outward manifestation, yet it has inward consequences for the student, that's what I meant when I wrote "internally created mental conflict". From the officials POV, they may have indeed simply been implementing a policy.
      At some point in the evolution of these policies or rulesets (no need for officials to think inwardly) or actions taken (outward manifestations), authority expanded to students' disrespectful picture taking, so there has been expansion, though the policy change may have occurred sometime previous to the incident referred to by the OP.
      One place where I disagree with you is the idea you expressed that for something to be authoritarian there has to be a constantly expanding territory of authority: Sometimes tyranny is just tyranny, whether it's new tyranny or old.

edit: various corrections, accidentally pressed "post" instead of preview.

[SeattleGirl]

12. Excellent rant, and you are quite correct: Kids are allowed to be

kids any more. When I was in grade school (started 1st grade in 1960), we always had "gun battles" and stuff, and no one ever got in trouble for that.

On the other hand, we were also taught to hide under our desks to protect ourselves from nuclear fallout, but I digress. I remember a lot of fun times from when I was a kid, playing games of all sorts, most of them ones that we made up. A few kids got in trouble, yes, but it was for things that actually WERE bad, like beating the crap out of another kid or something, NOT for forming ones fist into the shape of a gun, fer gawd sakes.

We live in such a goddamned nanny state, and there's no reason for it. It's just more trumped up fear.

[Danger Mouse]

19. Hell, when I was a kid, we did all kinds of stuff, and it wasn't that long ago!

We do live in a nanny state...it's for adults AND kids...everyone is to fear Beloved Leader. If they do not fear, then they are broken as harshly as possible.
We have surrendered our rights without hardly a struggle. They don't need troops in the street or jackbooted thugs kicking down doors in the middle of the night. They have fear, and that is all they need.

[fizzgig]

16. we know nothing of moderation these days

the swing of the pendulum has been so drastic even since i graduated high school.

kids in my junior high used to draw the most horrific, violent, bloody war scenes...teachers didn't care (not that i'm saying kids should be punished for what they draw)

the blatant harassment by some students (in the presences of teachers)...no big deal

vandalism...nope, no one cared

now you can't look at someone cross-eyed without this knee-jerk hysteria

gods forbid we deal with students on an individual basis and craft a resolution that fits the situation

[Danger Mouse]

22. hell, i used to draw the most violent, obscene shit ever in art class...

and i wouldn't get in trouble...haha, those were the days...

[NashVegas]

17. Lay This One Soley On Parents, IMO

When I was young, my brothers and their friends played baseball out of doors, out in the streets. If they happened to send a ball through someone's window, they were expected to immediately own up to their actions, they were expected to pay for a replacement through their allowance & extra chores, or work something out with the home owner.

I don't want kids to be robots, I want parents to teach their kids to use their fucking brains and take responsibility for those times when they don't.

[Danger Mouse]

20. Parents are a part of the problem...

but i think it's the hysterical overreactions of the parents in general, and the tendency of this country in general toward authoritarianism, that has caused this trend.

[NashVegas]

32. Littabitaboth?

A kid in Nashville got his ass busted for bringing a gun to school yesterday. We all thought it was stupid when the district adopted a dress code, but the gun wouldn't have been spotted if not for that code. We have increasing gang problems; in addition to the old usual suspects, in the 1990s, it was Laotian gangs, and now Kurdish Pride. Someone's got to take a stand. If parents won't ...

[TomInTib]

18. It happened to my youngest son.

The Ass't Principal pulled him over in the hall and said he thought Will had beensmoking reefer because his pupils were dilated.

DILATED???

I have been smoking for well over 40 years. I have smoked some of the best pot on the Planet (still do, just did) and I have never seen pot cause pupil dilation.

They expelled him for the rest of the year.

I could go on and on about the ridiculous series that followed, but there is a great Jazz/Blues trio down the street and duty calls.

[madeline_con]

24. Was he tested?

If not, they had no ground to stand on. If he was and failed, they can expell I guess.

[Danger Mouse]

26. I'm interested in hearing more, when you have the time.

:hi:

[JenniferJuniper]

29. I went to high school in the late 1970's

and about half the school was stoned at any given time.

There were no stabbing or shootings or metal detectors. Hardly ever a fight. Mellow, hazy days. We weren't going to learn anything from that teaching staff anyway.

I would hate being a kid today.

I say pass out the pot and spare the ammunition.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

21. It drives the teachers and guidance counselors I know crazy

They spend years and thousands of dollars to gain knowledge and expertise in education and child development. Now they can't apply any of it because they are bound by stupid arbitrary laws that take away all their discretion and judgement. It's very similar to the ridiculous mandatory minimum sentences in the criminal justice system.

If there's a concern with a particular behavior, why not TALK to the kids and find out what's motivating them to act out and THEN determine if disciplinary action is warranted?

[Danger Mouse]

25. I know, right? Heaven forbid...TALKING to them?? LISTENING to them??

And I also agree that it parallels the idiotic mandatory minimums in the 'justice' system.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

28. The other trend is letting the craziest parents influence school policy

You can't celebrate Halloween in school because a few brainwashed fundies think it's "devil worship."

A French teacher I knew in Oregon got in trouble for showing a film in class: there were people (gasp!) drinking wine in it, and a shot of a statue with bare breasts. (Because high school students have never seen anyone drink wine and don't know that women have breasts, right? I bet the parents were big John Ashcroft fans, too.)

[Danger Mouse]

31. Ha, when I was in school, I saw movies with nudity in them!

Nobody complained.
Fundies should not impact any sort of policy, ESPECIALLY policy that involves children. We shouldn't make everyone suffer because of the idiotic religions beliefs of a few whackos.

[Oeditpus Rex]

43. When I was in eighth grade (1969), some of the English classes saw 'Romeo and Juliet'

We had to get Special Permission Slips because in addition to being a field trip, it was rated M (the precursor to GP, which was the precursor to PG), because of... well, this:







I don't remember any fuss about it. :shrug:

[napi21]

35. Strict black & white orders are always bad!

I'm not quite sure why, but it seems to me that teachers, bus drivers, hall monitors etc. are not permitted to THINK or make a judge ment on their own. In every insace case I've heard about where some 1st grader is suspended for having a keychain with a 1" plastic gun on it, or a child drawing a gun on a piece of paper, the penalty decisions have always been based on the strict text of the rule. A gun is a gun. It doesn't matter if it's a piece of paper, a kid forming that shape with his hand, or a real colt 45 revolver...they're all the same and possession is punishable the same.

I can't believe that most of the teachers don't already recognize that some of these cases are flat out silly or stupid! The only reason I can even imagine is that they are told "DON'T THINK!" "THE RULE IS THE RULE AND THERE'S NO ROOM FOR RATIONAL JUDGEMENT!"

I heard a former member of TSA on the radio last night stating that she was fired because she checked passengers for knives, guns, etc, and didn't pay any attention to tweezers and nail clippers. She was told she wasn't permitted to THINK! She was to reject ANYTHING that could be used as a weapon!

I can ony HOPE that a new administration will inject some logic and sanity back into our daily lives!

[Danger Mouse]

37. As someone who works in education...

i would sooner lose my job than enforce an idiotic policy like that.

[Layla_Z]

39. I'm a teacher (15 years) and you people are right

School is becoming less and less about learning and especially teaching kids how to learn and to want to learn. If you are a core teacher(math, science, English, social studies) everything you do is geared to improve test scores. We were taught in college that the standardized test is the worst way to measure knowledge but now it is the most used method. If you are not a core teacher(arts) you are ignored except when you are expected to "help" teach the core subjects to raise test scores. We are creating a generation of students with no creativity and no desire to learn.

When you hear about low test scores remember we are one of the few countries that tests all of the students. Most European countries divide students into college bound and non-college bound. Only the college bound take the big tests. Here a student with an IQ of 70 is tested in communication arts with all the other students. There is no way this student is going to score high enough to please NCLB. Schools and teachers are being set up to fail.

[Danger Mouse]

40. It's sad, and pathetic...

i work with emotionally disturbed kids...we are required by law to administer the tests to them.
It's an exercise in futility, and a complete waste of time.

[GoneOffShore]

42. Good post and

Welcome to DU!


:hi:

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

44. Life in a black and white, right or wrong, good or evil Puritanical culture

There's no shade of gray acceptable in that culture. There's no such thing as middle ground. There's no moderation. If you allow someone to break a law, even in the slightest and most remote sense, you must be punished in full and there is no room for the exercise of reasonable discretion when handing out punishment. The laws must be adhered to in the absolute, like the teachings of the Holy Bible.

These are kids. I believe that schools should exercise strict discipline and that they should be for kids who go there to learn. But bring the kid into the principal's office. Call their parents. Talk to the kid and explain why what they did was wrong. Don't turn it into a federal case with suspensions or expulsions every time a kid stupidly brings a butterknife to school and don't call it a deadly weapon when it isn't any more or less so than a pen or pencil.

[napi21]

45. Ahh, but then the Admin would have to let people make a rational decision

on what constitutes a weapon. I seriously doubt any kids really bring a butter knife (what I call a butter knife) to school. I have a very nice set of flatware, and it has ONE butter knife! Nobody takes that one anywhere. They take a table knife. In all fairness, I dare anybody to really harm somebody with one of my table knives! But then there's the decision of a fork! I happen to think one of my table forks are more of a weapon than the darn table knife! I don't think I ever heard of any kid being punished for having a fork?

All I'm saying is that the administrators are afraid to let any teacher make their own ration decision, I guess because they're afraid one just might be wrong once!

[Danger Mouse]

50. That's what it comes down to...

and that's why we have the drug war and politicians swearing to be 'tough on crime' and why we have one of the highest (if not THE highest) rate of incarcerations on the planet.
With the growing power of fear and fundies, we have desceneded even further into authoritarianism.

[treestar]

54. Exactly. And the adults don't want to have to use any judgment

They want what they have to do to handle it set out, so they can say they had no choice.

[Smith_3]

46. The appropriate response in the picture taking incident:

-Conviscate the cell phone to have it later be picked up by the parents.
-Have the picture deleted.
-Have the student write a two-page essay about appropriate behaviour in class.

Problem solved. Getting the legal system involved in such a case is moronic.

[Danger Mouse]

49. Sounds like an appropriate response.

Heaven forbid anyone use any common sense and rationality. :(

[Smith_3]

73. Amazing, isn't it? In my school days...

... what I described above would have been considered "harsh punishment". Getting the parents involved and all...

[lumberjack_jeff]

52. In 7th grade, my middle son was suspended for two weeks

For "sexual harassment".

Sounds bad, right?

Turns out, he was frustrated about what he perceived as being picked on by the teacher, and he turned to whisper to the friend sitting next to him; "this is so gay".

Another student heard the exchange and dashed to the teacher to tell her that he called her gay.

The teacher demanded justice from the administration. As did her married boyfriend, a fellow teacher.

In my experience, 90% of discipline is doled out to mollify teachers.

Had I done that 30 years ago, I'd have gotten my butt paddled and sent to the office if the teacher had heard it. If the teacher were told of it by the third party, hearsay style, the third party would have been advised that no one likes a suck-up snitch.

[Danger Mouse]

59. That's absurd. I guess he's lucky he escaped without criminal charges.

:banghead:

[lumberjack_jeff]

61. They only called the cops when he passed a note to a friend...

... about their "plans" to purchase one of these.

http://www.hobbytron.com/AirsoftGuns.html

Talking about airsoft guns merits a visit from the police... without informing the parents until after the fact, it seems.

On bad days, parenthood really, really sucks.

[Danger Mouse]

62. Are you serious?

Ugh.
Well, if it makes you feel any better, my high school tried to have me institutionalized!
Ah, it was a funny story, except it wasn't funny...it was humiliating and awful, and I've never fully forgiven them for the hell they put me through.

[lumberjack_jeff]

68. Quite.

Once the cops had interviewed each of "the subjects" and determined that they were passing notes about toys, the issue was dropped and he was suspended three days (if memory serves) for passing notes in class.

Three days for passing notes? "Well, the teacher was *really* upset, see..."

[Layla_Z]

64. I agree that the response was crazy but

I don't agree that discipline is nearly always to mollify the teacher. In my experience discipline is often done or not done to please the parent. What also happens to often is the teacher is ignored because the principal can't be bothered. I have known principals who ask the teacher to back away from a legitimate complaint because the he/she didn't want to deal with the parent.

[Kansas Wyatt]

53. Relax, it's only TRAINING for you police state.

Just your Corporate Government making sure that the population knows it's place when the lock down comes.

[Danger Mouse]

58. There won't need to be a lockdown.

The American Sheep are too weak and compliant to ever demand change, so why do they need to use enforce to rule?

[Initech]

55. I think the last people to impliment zero tolerance were the Germans. Circa early 1940's.

Yeah, I hate to bring up the Nazi comparison, but I think it applies here.

[Rabrrrrrr]

56. No: Idi Amin, Castro, the Hutu, the Janjaweed, Kim Jong-Il, the Taliban,

and a whole host of other central american and African leaders/tribes.

Zero Tolerance is VERY popular amongst the evil.

[Danger Mouse]

57. The Nazis don't have an exclusive on evil...

though they were certainly good at it.

[Initech]

60. True. I forget about the Taliban.

[NuttyFluffers]

71. this is the triumph of literalism and obedience

there's a reason cultures throughout the world taught about "soft virtues" of mercy, grace, temperance, etc. because utilizing "spirit of the law" vs. "letter of the law" thinking, a.k.a. allegory and critical thinking vs. literalism and blind obedience, helped keep a balanced perspective in society and its relation to its collective power. this is why strict formulas that work in the physical world cannot be applied upon the mental and social world of humans; our social technology has to be more like guidelines administered by wisdom's discretion because otherwise abuse and entropy will rapidly enter the system. flexibility, a.k.a. ethics, is a failsafe against this: rigidity, a.k.a. fundamental moralism, is the removal of this failsafe, hence why fundamentalism is a repeated danger to societies throughout history.