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Could somebody tell me what the hell "islamofascism" is?

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ChipperbackDemocrat Donating Member (331 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-04-07 01:07 PM
Original message
Could somebody tell me what the hell "islamofascism" is?
I know what Islam is. I know what fascism...But I have no clue as to what this "Isamofascism" is. Is it guys who believe in Mohammad and believe in the corporate state?

This word makes me laugh every time I hear it because it sounds like something people like Richard Perle just made up, made it sound intellectual and people believe this crap.

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shadowknows69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-04-07 01:07 PM
Response to Original message
1. Boogeyman of the year
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iamthebandfanman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-04-07 01:09 PM
Response to Original message
2. yeah, the term never made sense
i think its just to miskew the definition of fascism so they wont get figured out themselves ;)
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Zywiec Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-04-07 01:10 PM
Response to Original message
3. Sure, check wikipedia
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BushOut06 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-04-07 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #3
12. Sure, there's a reputable source
:sarcasm:

If you're going to try and prove a point, do NOT use Wikipedia. It's only a few steps above using Free Republic as a source.
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StClone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-04-07 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #12
26. Wiki is accurate
Edited on Tue Dec-04-07 01:38 PM by StClone
Wiki calls it a controversial neologism because religion is not the main focus in Classical Fascism. Religion is tertiary and Classical Fascism is usually state-driven reinforced by most other elements of society especially corporate.
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LSK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-04-07 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #12
30. Wiki has these little things called sources
You can usually judge for yourself whether its a reputable source or not.
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Zywiec Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-04-07 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #12
33. Is the New Oxford American Dictionary also disreputable?
The New Oxford American Dictionary defines Islamofascism as "a controversial term equating some modern Islamic movements with the European fascist movements of the early twentieth century"

I guess you also disagree with this link on Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democraticunderground

It sure does reek of only a few steps above FR.

:sarcasm:

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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-04-07 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #3
18. Yes... Everyone Please Do Read It!
It will tell you that the word is founded on a BS precept to create boogeymen, boogeymen that are Islamic.
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krispos42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-04-07 01:11 PM
Response to Original message
4. A right-wing talking point that activates...
...both the "fear-of-Hitler" mental frame and the "fear-of-Islamic-terrorists" mental frame.

Ironically, it is spewed by Christofascists on an hourly basis.
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-04-07 01:13 PM
Response to Original message
5. It Means "christofascism" is OK
It means nothing. It's another BS talking point neo-cons came up with to conflate Islam with fascism when in fact, neo-cons are fascists themselves.
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Zywiec Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-04-07 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. Christofascism?
Edited on Tue Dec-04-07 01:18 PM by Zywiec
Where is that term defined anywhere?

You asked about Islamofascism which is defined in dictionaries and goes back over 70 years.

What is your point?
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-04-07 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #8
14. Barely... I Read the Wikipedia Entry
Edited on Tue Dec-04-07 01:34 PM by fascisthunter
It's origins are ambiguous at most and as ridiculous and bigoted as the word christofascists. Neo-cons adopted the word for this idiotioc war on "terror". You know exactly what my opoint was. Stop trying to justify the neo-con propaganda.
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-04-07 01:13 PM
Response to Original message
6. Intended to refer to authoritarian Muslim theocracy..
usually by people who'd be just fine with authoritarian Christian theocracy.
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-04-07 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. And We Have A Winner, Ladies And Gentlemen!
You have put it in a nut-shell, Ma'am.
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Truth2Tell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-04-07 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #6
20. Doesn't "fascism" require
a melding of corporate and state interests? How would that apply to the many Muslim headed dictatorships in the world - most of which operate socialist economies? Seems like it wouldn't? :shrug:
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Ignis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-04-07 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #6
31. B-b-b-ut...that's DIFFERENT!
It's okay when you're torturing people and/or burning them at the stake in Jesus' name. Not so much when done in Allah's name.

Can't you see the very clear difference?!?!1

:sarcasm:
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-04-07 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #6
38. I use the term, and I am just NOT fine with ANY "authoritarian theocracy".
Edited on Tue Dec-04-07 02:26 PM by WinkyDink
Speak for yourself.
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NMMNG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-04-07 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #6
41. Bingo
And they typically don't see the blatant hypocrisy in their use of the term.
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flordehinojos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-04-07 01:16 PM
Response to Original message
9. boomeranging the crap!
that is what i think it is. bush knows he is fascist. bush knows his father is a closet fascist. bush knows his grandfater and great-grandfather were fascist. he doesn't want to admit he is one. he doesn't want us to call him one. so he is just boomeranging the crap. turning it around. and focusing on some innocent one, or religion, or movement ... you know, his old poppy's fear and smear campaign technique, not to forget bush's own cheerleading cheers ... the man is really still, has always been, will always be only a cheerleader ... so now he is cheerleading for fear spreading and the misinformation crowd. that is all that it is.
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bif Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-04-07 01:16 PM
Response to Original message
10. It's an excuse to drain the coffers of the U.S. Treasury
And enrich all of Bushie's friends
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BushOut06 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-04-07 01:19 PM
Response to Original message
11. It's a made-up term to keep the Rethuglican base in line
As in "vote for our candidate or the Democrats will cave in to the Islamofascists".
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Iggo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-04-07 01:21 PM
Response to Original message
13. It's like Christofascism...
except differ'nt.
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Zywiec Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-04-07 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. Yes, it's different because one is real and one isn't. n/t
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-04-07 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #13
39. What is "Christofascism"?
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-04-07 01:26 PM
Response to Original message
16. A mis-use
of language.
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mdmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-04-07 01:26 PM
Response to Original message
17. It is like the KKK, but without Christ
:kick:
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Guy Whitey Corngood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-04-07 01:26 PM
Response to Original message
19. It's government run by the prophet Mohammed's corporate cronies. n/t
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EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-04-07 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. Citigroup and Kingdom Holding Company ?
Edited on Tue Dec-04-07 01:31 PM by EVDebs
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Waleed_bin_Talal

and banks like BCCI come readily to mind. But they were all OUR guys.
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Guy Whitey Corngood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-04-07 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #21
44. I was joking, but you make a good point. n/t
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devilgrrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-04-07 01:30 PM
Response to Original message
22. It's the same thing as the "Jew-O-Fascism" that hit Berlin in the 1930's.
Doesn't it sound familiar?
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tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-04-07 01:31 PM
Response to Original message
23. Orwellian Lunacy. NewSpeak. Read "1984" for more info, if you haven't already
n/t
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BuyingThyme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-04-07 01:32 PM
Response to Original message
24. Projectionism by Christian fascists.
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rocktivity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-04-07 01:37 PM
Response to Original message
25. I define it as a form of RELIGIOUS fascism
which is the advocation or use of violence, discrimination, opression, or sedition to install or further one's religious beliefs.

It isn't one's religion that makes one a religious fascist, but one's fascism.

:headbang:
rocknation
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Beerboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-04-07 01:43 PM
Response to Original message
27. This one's easy.
Edited on Tue Dec-04-07 02:01 PM by Beerboy
"Islamo-Fascism" is a clumsy RW media meme attempting to link the persecuted belivers of a diverse religion with a Western political and economic system.
It's lame mis-direction and bullshit projection.
edit to add : Where's my manners?
Welcome to DU!:thumbsup:
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-04-07 01:45 PM
Response to Original message
28. It's the new Gay Agenda only the brown people are scarier because they have facial hair. nt
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LSK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-04-07 01:46 PM
Response to Original message
29. a complete oxymoron
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bullimiami Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-04-07 01:58 PM
Response to Original message
32. saudi arabia (sort of)
Edited on Tue Dec-04-07 01:58 PM by bullimiami
although its more like islamic-cronyism
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backscatter712 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-04-07 02:02 PM
Response to Original message
34. Psychological projection. n/t
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-04-07 02:04 PM
Response to Original message
35. A replacement for the Red bogeyman that used to scare the "home of the brave."
“The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary.” H.L. Mencken
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-04-07 02:14 PM
Response to Original message
36. It's like "Jew menace" only for muslims.
:shrug:
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warren pease Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-04-07 02:23 PM
Response to Original message
37. It's code for...
...give us all your money so we can further enrich our friends and cronies in the weapons and fossil fuels businesses.


wp
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-04-07 02:28 PM
Response to Original message
40. it's like "Terrorism." it means nothing, really.
But it has the advantage of letting whoever uses the term believe that it's whatever makes them angry at the moment.
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MisterP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-04-07 02:49 PM
Response to Original message
42. a continuation of the trend to portraying the Enemy as monolithic "totalitarianism" intent on
conquering the entire world: WWII's "bipartisan" anti-Fascism was sublimated into bipartisan Cold-War anti-Communism in 1945, when it was declared that the "far right" and "far left" met, making the political spectrum a circle. "Islamofascism" is the next step in this evolution, once we "discovered" a suitable enemy for a new Great War on. Hirsi Ali and the rest are trying to appeal to liberals to oppose "Islamofascism," painting Islam as woman-hating, etc., etc., and trying to impose a litmus test for "honest" liberals written by Alessandra Mussolini. Americans, the media, and the "leader" can pretend Islamism is a terrorist nexus intent on taking over the entire world, just like the dreadful Muscovites who supported indigenous anti-colonial movements and were thus "puppets"--to be overthrown at will. Oh, and all the "Islamofascists" are on top of lots of oil.
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Igel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-04-07 03:05 PM
Response to Original message
43. First, define 'fascism'.
Some define it in strictly economic terms. Then all of
Hitler's racism and anti-Semitism, militarism, death-cult, etc., etc. are suddenly irrelevant. Not important at all to having Germany be fascist.

Then again, the progressive in '89 who called me a 'fascist' because he assumed that I was in a church that was anti-abortion and anti a few other liberties was also wrong. Because I wasn't corporatist.

Here are a few snippets from Wiki for 'fascism' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism). Good as any other source.

---------
...Former Columbia University Professor Robert O. Paxton has written that:

Fascism may be defined as a form of political behavior marked by obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation, or victim-hood and by compensatory cults of unity, energy, and purity, in which a mass-based party of committed nationalist militants, working in uneasy but effective collaboration with traditional elites, abandons democratic liberties and pursues with redemptive violence and without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing and external expansion."
----------

Note that extreme takfiri groups that seek to establish a caliphate focus on community decline, humiliation, and their victim-hood; the "ummah" must unit (tawhid is not just an attribute of Allah). They are not "nationalist" in the sense of ethnic natio, they are nationalist in the sense that the ummah--the Muslim nation--must be victorious. In this, they echo the Ottoman's view that your tribal affiliation is in many ways less important than your "confession", i.e., your religion. Violence is certainly redemptive for those folk, and they seek to both purity the ummah and expand its reach. But let's not assume that there's any similarity between any group dubbed "Islamic" and Paxton's definition.

--------
Stanley Payne's Fascism: Comparison and Definition (1980) uses a lengthy itemized list of characteristics to identify fascism, including the creation of an authoritarian state; a regulated, state-integrated economic sector; fascist symbolism; anti-liberalism; anti-communism; anti-conservatism.<14> He argues that common aim of all fascist movements was elimination of the autonomy or, in same cases, the existence of large-scale capitalism.
--------
Authoritarian state, check. But the economic model under Islam is a bit different; apart from disposing of usury and enforcing zakat, as well as making sure that all businesses are properly religious, they don't care. The symbolism has to be shifted--I doubt if swastikas are necessarily the rage, although nationalism (as tweaked above) is. Certainly anti-liberal, anti-communist. "Anti-conservatism" needs further explication for me to understand it; most Fascist parties were both modernising and conservative, just in their own ways and for their own ends (as well most Communist parties). Odd that autonomy or existence of large-scale capitalism could be included by *anyone* if corporatism is the most important feature; I suspect I'm missing either dueling definitions or something in Payne's definition.

--------------
Semiotician Umberto Eco attempts to identify the characteristics of proto-fascism as the cult of tradition, rejection of modernism, cult of action for action's sake, life is lived for struggle, fear of difference, rejection of disagreement, contempt for the weak, cult of masculinity and machismo, qualitative populism, appeal to a frustrated majority, obsession with a plot, illicitly wealthy enemies, education to become a hero, and speaking Newspeak, in his popular essay Eternal Fascism: Fourteen Ways of Looking at a Blackshirt.
------------
Tradition, check. Rejection of modernism, check (but cf. Payne). Action for action's sake, check. Life is lived for struggle, double check. Etc., check. I've apparently overlooked the urgency of corporatism, but note that I find little about the extremist forms of Islam that believe in jihad and takfir and Eco's definitions. Perhaps he's been coopted by the neocons.

-------
Fascism in Italy arose in the 1920s as a mixture of syndicalist notions with an anti-materialist theory of the state; the latter had already been linked to an extreme nationalism. Fascists accused parliamentary democracy of producing division and decline, and wished to renew the nation from decadence. They viewed the state as an organic entity in a positive light rather than as an institution designed to protect individual rights, or as one that should be held in check. Fascism universally dismissed the Marxist concept of "class struggle", replacing it instead with the concept of "class collaboration". Fascists embraced nationalism and mysticism, advancing ideals of strength and power as means of legitimacy. These ideas are in direct opposition to the liberal ideals of humanism and rationalism characteristic of the Age of Enlightenment.

Fascism is also typified by totalitarian attempts to impose state control over all aspects of life: political, social, cultural, and economic, by way of a strong, single-party government for enacting laws and a strong, sometimes brutal militia or police force for enforcing them.<19> Fascism exalts the nation, state, or group of people as superior to the individuals composing it. Fascism uses explicit populist rhetoric; calls for a heroic mass effort to restore past greatness; and demands loyalty to a single leader, leading to a cult of personality and unquestioned obedience to orders (Führerprinzip). Fascism is also considered to be a form of collectivism
---------
The Wiki sort-of-summary/consensus description, that. Now, one problem is that the 'state' is not just an important construct in Islamism, nor is the ethnos or class. Instead, we have the ummah, and the need for the ummah to unite in order to serve Allah. But in most essential features, these are analogous constructs: Just as we can define fascism so narrowly that only Mussolini's state apparatus meets the test, or so narrowly that Franco wasn't fascist, so we can construct a definition to make sure "we" are right and the freepers are wrong; all the better if it restricts the word to precisely those things *we* think are all important (corporations). I don't see a point in haranguing over words and making pointless appeals to authority just because some people believe that all Islam is the same and we must protect the word's hymen from being violated and breeched--whether the definition of the word is UBL's or ayeshahaqqiqa's, the head guy at al-Azhar's or Taariq Ramadan's (or his pa's).
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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-04-07 06:52 PM
Response to Original message
45. It's scary......
:scared:

like ghosts and werewolves and stuff
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