Ladies, WOULD you fight, or reason?

[coffee_strong]

I was just reading a story where a rape victim got her rapist to admit that he heard her say no. She was drunk, and didn't fight back, she just said no, and cried. I've been drunk, but never to the point where I couldn't move. Some experts say woman shouldn't fight back during an attack b/c it will just mamke the perp more angry and more violent. There have been some women who have talked their way out of attempted rapes and the like. I know it's hard to say whay you would ''hypotetically'' , but according to your personality, would you be the one to fight with all your might, or reason with all your might?

[LeftyMom]

1. If you haven't been there you have no idea.

And shame on you for judging a rape victim based on her reaction.

What a ghoulish thread.

[JuniperLea]

44. Empathy and human kindness... understanding...

We can always put ourselves in the shoes of others. If we can't, we should look inward and figure out why not. That's where the word 'empathy' comes from... to go into one's own mind and imagine how another feels.

I don't see judgment going on in the OP. And I certainly wouldn't call it ghoulish to want to discuss such things. For all you know this is a young woman looking for advice. IMHO, these things should be discussed. In the very Victorian times my great-grandmother grew up in, there were no such discussions. She had no idea that what a certain man had been doing to her was wrong.

Hope you can lighten up.

[LeftyMom]

47. Lighten up? About RAPE?

Oh for fuck's sake.

[JuniperLea]

53. You are over the top

to the point where you aren't making sense.

These topics call for rational, calm discussions... not hysteria.

Yes, lighten up. You are flying off the handle without knowing who you are talking to or what these people have experienced in their own lives.

[LeftyMom]

56. No.

I'm not going to lighten up and have a calm discussion about the proper way to be raped.

[JuniperLea]

65. Congratulations for twisting the hell out of the OP and the discussion

Shame on you for implying that women cannot prepare themselves for the possibility of rape. How progressive of you.

[LeftyMom]

67. It's one thing to say "takea self defense course" it's another to imply that some other woman

"let" herself get raped because she reacted differently than you think you would. Especially when you weren't there.

This sort of shit devolves into Old Testament "if she didn't scream she must have wanted it" bullshit. It's anti-woman and it revictimizes the victim.

Fear of facing this sort of nonsense from law enforcement and the community at large keeps victims quiet and rapists free to rape again. So knock it the fuck off.

[Phillycat]

68. But no one said that! No one even implied that!

I am a rape survivor and hypersensitive to the "she asked for it" mentality, and I didn't get that at all from the OP. :shrug:

[LeftyMom]

72. It implies that one can "get out of it" with determination and a plan.

Which, more often than not, is pure bullshit.

The responsibility for ending rape lies not with women, but with men.

[JuniperLea]

74. You're saying that all the psychologists and psychiatrists who...

formulated self-defense classes and techniques for women don't know as much as you do... riiiiiiiight.

This is by far the most disgusting thing I've read on this thread: "The responsibility for ending rape lies not with women, but with men."

Since when should women wait for men to do anything?? Why shouldn't a woman learn to take care of herself?

There are many proven techniques to dissuade a rapist. Although it's true that there are no guarantees, and no woman is at fault for being raped, it is a very good idea to arm women with information that has the possibility of helping.

[LeftyMom]

80. Depending on estimates, somewhere between 1/3 and 1/2 of all women will be raped.

How many of them took a self defense course? I did, for all the good it did me (none.)

The only way to stop rape is to get men to stop fucking women who don't want it. They're bigger and stronger. Implying that it's women's job to stop rape makes about as much sense as saying that if we teach kids to poke adults in the eyes and knee them in the nuts we can stop abuse and molestation. In the real world bigger and stronger wins, and the responsibility for their behavior lies with the aggressors, not the victims.

[JuniperLea]

82. That is so naive

What do you suggest then? Lay back and take it like a good little submissive girl?


:eyes:

[LeftyMom]

85. Yeah. You figured it out.

:sarcasm:

[iamthebandfanman]

98. gees

such vulgar language

'fucking women'

[coffee_strong]

140. Juniper, just give it up

with these two. there are others who find this thread informative and not offensive. If they feel that alerting women, or talking about ways to prevent rape is oppresive, or fault finding then not much else can be said. I have an aversion to overly hostile(for no good reason) people. I'd rather not deal with them if I didn't have to. These would be the type of women that if they were at a self defense class and the instructer used a mock attack, and asked the participants, how she could have avoided said mock attack, would blame the instructor for blaming the victims.....where as in reality they are trying to empower women, and give them tools to avoid, or get out(at least try) of dangerous situations. NO ONE, I repeat no one here has faulted ANY victim(s)

Also, in my original OP, the story was still fresh in my mind and I was recounting what I read. So sue me, I tried to convey the story in which my question arose.

[JuniperLea]

73. Where the hell are you reading that crap?

No one has said anything even close to that!!! Not the OP, and nowhere else in the entire thread!

[Reterr]

77. You are quite right -the OP said nothing of the sort

And this is a discussion forum-not a scientific paper-people should be able to post questions without having all their parameters and variables in place, without getting flamed so badly. If such stringent criteria were applied to all posts on DU (or any discussion forum), I suspect discussion forums would become extinct ;).


People can always ask politely if they are unclear of things in the OP without shouting "shame on you", " what a load of bullshit" etc. without provocation. This is what makes forums such unfriendly places. People attack first and ask questions later-not cool...

[Whisp]

84. the OP certainly does say that.

would you fight or would you submit ? it's tough enough to make a case even when fighting for your life, with bruises and medical documentation, but submitting to a rape pretty well gives you no chance at all in the courts.

[JTFrog]

91. And equates submit with "reason".

:grr:

[Whisp]

99. argh. like reasoning with a criminal intent on doing harm

has value. when obviously he/she is very unreasonable.
I wonder how many people in the Omaha mall tried to 'reason' the shooter out of his actions...

[JuniperLea]

107. I don't believe reasoning is good either

but I'll be damned if I'm going to come out shooting with both barrels at someone who is asking valid questions. Shame on you. Shame on you and your stupid strawman argument too.

[Whisp]

109. sorry, but you cannot shame me.

I know that's a nice club you think you own, but you don't.

[JuniperLea]

112. When the student is ready, the teacher will appear eom

[Whisp]

117. and what exactly are you trying to teach me

that I already know.

rape is a crime, a sexless crime, a violent one. The person that is raped is now on the stand for not being able to avoid it?

[JuniperLea]

121. You are the only one putting the victim on the stand

No one ever said there is a fail-safe way to avoid being raped. You made that up and now you are trying to punish others for saying it, when it was you who said it.

[Whisp]

128. I didn't make it up, some in this thread have.

in degrees.
implied - be 'reasonable' and you may avoid rape. submit to the rape, then have the rapist say 'you wanted it'. That's all I'm saying.

and don't go all Justice on me about the victim not being on the stand. You and I and most know that happens all too often.

[JuniperLea]

131. It's not happening here

You are making it up.

[Whisp]

134. here? where is here?

whats not happening somewhere other than here.

[coffee_strong]

141. Looks like you

and a few others are looking for reasons to argue, as once again you totally mangled my op.

The question was would you fight or reason..according to your personality, which do you think you'd do( that was the question)

As you can see, as the thread progresses, women share stories of how reasoning actually worked. So BOTH can work.

Nice try at trying to make me look like the bad guy though.

[JuniperLea]

106. You are ignorant

And need to learn to read for comprehension. Shame on you for belittling someone honestly asking questions and looking for advice.

I'm consumed with repulsion by your willful and completely made up naivete.

[Whisp]

115. sure, let's belitte rape victims instead.

that they were not 'reasonable' enough to avoid the crime. or strong enough, or didn't take the right courses on defense.

[JuniperLea]

120. You can't put words in my mouth...

Or in my posts, or in anyone else's. You can misread, not comprehend, but you cannot change reality.

[Whisp]

124. then post what you actually mean.

[JuniperLea]

129. I have. I'm not responsible for your lack of comprehension

Perhaps you were responding to someone else, I don't know, but your attitude is pretty disgusting in light of what I have written here.

I'm trying to empower women here, apparently you are trying to tell them there is no hope! That is ridiculous, disgusting and dangerous.

[Whisp]

132. there is hope, and I am not a disgusting person.

just to let you know.
in what way do you empower women saying that they can avoid rape in a rapist world? Certainly are some things to be aware of, from our side, the woman side. Dangers of all sorts - economic, ego driven male laws, yadda yadda.

Empowerment to me does not mean submitting to a reasonable rapist.

[JuniperLea]

135. Submission was never in any of my posts

And I cannot for the life of me fathom what a "reasonable rapist" might be. Those two words have never come together in my mind, or at my fingertips!

I've repeatedly said these things:

There are no guarantees.

Women can learn to defend themselves against attackers, including rapists.

If a woman feels empowered, she can do amazing things no matter how big and strong an attacker is.

Every woman here should Google up some self defense course information and educate herself!!

I'm sorry if I offended you. But this is an issue near and dear to my heart. And when I see misinformation flying about, I get very angry because some woman might read that misinformation and take it for truth, and that one little thing could cost a woman her life.

[Whisp]

137. rape is real.

the definition of it has become unreal.

[JuniperLea]

138. I know all too well how real rape is. eom

[La Lioness Priyanka]

125. actually thats what you do. at no point have i stated that women cant do anything. yet you insist

i have. either you have no ability to read or you like to put words in other people's mouth.

[JuniperLea]

130. I'll quote you...

even if he had a gun to her head. you people have no idea what you are talking about.

i would say no one knows what the fuck they are talking about about rape, unless they are actually being raped. (so all those experts are wrong... :eyes: )

people cannot predict in advance how they will react. they will probably react the way most other women have reacted. (you edited this one, so it's not quite as offensive as it once was)

there are plenty of studies that show people like to think they would behave differently from a rape victim because it lulls them into a sense of security, believing that rape will not happen to them. (this one is the ultimate bullshit)

[La Lioness Priyanka]

133. i didnt edit for offensiveness. i edited for grammar. and yet none of what you quote

states that women are powerless. look at that.

[JuniperLea]

136. This one is particularly offensive to women... and utterly false and dangerous

there are plenty of studies that show people like to think they would behave differently from a rape victim because it lulls them into a sense of security, believing that rape will not happen to them. (this one is the ultimate bullshit)

[La Lioness Priyanka]

167. no its neither false nor dangerous.

[Pastiche423]

150. I agree w/you 100%

and for the record - I fought back w/every once of energy I had.

I was raped, robbed, stabbed, beaten and left for dead.

Unfortunately, I lived. But am paralyzed for life.

[Horse with no Name]

162. What a terrible ordeal

I am so sorry for what you went through.:hug:

[BOSSHOG]

2. I think a potential rapist

would have his hands full if he assaulted my wife. She would kick, scream, shout, mall, spit at and just make his worthless life even more so. If there is any possibility that someone is in earshot I think that might be the course of action. The same should apply for men.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

4. even if he had a gun to her head. you people have no idea what you are talking about.

[BOSSHOG]

14. I do know how my wife reacted

when she was assaulted. It was not rape but a man attempted to steal her purse. She put up a fight, pitched a fit, still has her purse, the assaulter was arrested shortly thereafter. Of course that action could have gotten her killed.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

19. was she drugged? did he have a gun? was he much bigger/smaller than her?

were other people there?

so many different variables.

[JuniperLea]

46. You people?

WTF?

Some of us know exactly what the hell we are talking about here. You have no right to judge.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

3. i would say no one knows what the fuck they are talking about

about rape, unless they are actually being raped.

your post creeps me out.

[coffee_strong]

5. How did i know my post would be

misconstrued? Sigh!! Oh and for the record you are only assuming I haven't been thru as much b/c that would make you feel better. I can say the same....you have no idea....

[LeftyMom]

10. If you had, you would NEVER have posted this.

Shame on you.

[Runcible Spoon]

16. enough with the witchunt please!

I for one think the poster is entitled to the benefit of the doubt. Not everyone with less thatn 5K posts is from freeperville or wants to make fun of rape victims SHEESH.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

17. i didnt call her or imply she was a freeper. i said she has no idea what she is talking about.

which she doesnt.

:eyes:

[Runcible Spoon]

18. SO WHAT?

THAT'S WHY PEOPLE...UMM..ASK QUESTIONS. Talk about a hostile environment, how ironic.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

23. and you are not?

[Reterr]

49. Spot on

:applause:

[JuniperLea]

54. Well said!

Thank you.

[Reterr]

55. That is your opinion-not a fact

In your opinion no one knows-others might think differently.

[JuniperLea]

50. Bullshit

That's your opinion.

[LeftyMom]

57. And I stand by it.

:hi:

[La Lioness Priyanka]

12. no i am saying that every rape is different. this hypothetical rape assumes that there is only one

kind of rape.

people cannot predict in advance how they will react.

they will probably react the way most other women have reacted.

[JuniperLea]

60. Bull Fucking Shit

There are plenty of self-defense courses out there and their main thrust is that if you are prepared, you can more easily control yourself and do the right thing.

Contrary to your one-note conclusions, many women are strong enough willed to put up a damn good fight regardless of how well prepared they are. Others are well prepared and can rely on what they have learned.

Shame on you for saying women don't have the wherewithal to keep their wits about them in a time of crisis!! That is disgusting and it's bullshit.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

71. actually my opinion wasnt that no woman can do anything just that the circumstance

of the rape might be different. the womans state of health/mind might also be different.

how on earth can you judge what you would do, when you have no idea who the rapist is, what circumstance it happened under, if you were drugged, if you were 9 and the rapist was your uncle.

there are plenty of studies that show people like to think they would behave differently from a rape victim because it lulls them into a sense of security, believing that rape will not happen to them.

[JuniperLea]

75. You need to get yourself to a women's self defense class

And listen to an expert. I don't know where you arrived at this bullshit, but it isn't healthy.

[Whisp]

88. what I think is not healthy is the attitude that

there wouldn't be any rape at all, only if women were smart enough to avoid it. that's the message I am getting from your posts.

[JuniperLea]

105. Then you should get yourself to a reading expert...

And learn to read for comprehension. I never, ever said these techniques would end all rape. That is stupid and it was never said anywhere in this entire thread. You should be ashamed.

I've said numerous times here that there is no guarantee, but women should empower themselves to at least try to defend themselves.

Anyone who thinks women are completely powerless are disgusting to me.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

114. you should learn how to read at no point have i ever stated that women are powerless

[JuniperLea]

118. You have stated over and over in this thread

That women cannot prepare themselves. Go ahead and empower men to be rapists. Just go right ahead. And I will continue telling women that they can empower themselves, they can fight back, bigger and stronger does not equal smarter or better prepared. There are no quarantees in life, not with this subject or anything else. But I'll be damned if I'm ever going to believe that women don't have the options. You are not an expert.



The Rape Aggression Defense System is a program of realistic self-defense tactics and techniques for women. The R.A.D. System is a comprehensive, women-only course that begins with awareness, prevention, risk reduction and risk avoidance, while progressing on to the basics of hands-on defense training. R.A.D. is not a Martial Arts program. Our courses are taught by nationally certified R.A.D. Instructors and provide each student with a workbook/reference manual. This manual outlines the entire Physical Defense Program for reference and continuous personal growth, and is the key to our free lifetime return and practice policy for R.A.D. graduates.


http://www.rad-systems.com/


Get a clue...

[La Lioness Priyanka]

119. apparantly you cant read. and i cant bother to argue with people who cant read. nt

[JuniperLea]

122. Pardon the fuck out of me... I didn't realize I was dealing with a supreme being

Good Goddess...

[Skittles]

159. put 'em on IGNORE

it's much easier that way

[La Lioness Priyanka]

111. exactly.

[Runcible Spoon]

15. I knew you would be jumped on probably because of your low post count.

for what it's worth, i give you the benefit of the doubt that you were honestly asking a straight forward question without judgment. Don't feel badly, some people on this board won't allow any discussion of rape or pertinent and important women's issues without first posting photographic evidence that you yourself or someone close to you was brutalized; apparently anyone else who has serious and candid questions about these issues has no "right" to ask. Fuck that, I say.

[coffee_strong]

24. Thank you Farceofnature

Maybe they just think I'm some sexist male. I'm a woman who was wanting to talk about an important issue women and girls have to face on a daily basis, or should I say ''the threat of''

[JuniperLea]

48. Quite frankly, it's your posts that are creepy to me

You have no idea what the OP has experienced, or the rest of us for that matter.

Talking about these topics are critical to the well-being of women. If you can't handle it, bug out.

[Reterr]

51. Totally agree. eom

[Phillycat]

62. I agree. nt

[mtnester]

6. Everyone reacts differently to extreme stress

assuming a fierce, to the death struggle should and is always the action of a victim in this circumstance is simply...well an assumption.

Unless you have worn those shoes, you really cannot know.

[coffee_strong]

11. Also I was not

judging her, I said that I have NEVER BEEN DRUNK to the point I couldn't move! How is saying I've never been so drunk that I couln't move judging the victim?

[Gormy Cuss]

34. But you do understand that drunk to that point may have been assisted by roofies, don't you?

You do know that certain ways of drinking alcohol can make it quite easy to ingest far too much before your brain registers the fact and you start feeling really drunk?

The problem that I see with your OP is that the story WAS about someone immobilized from intoxication (whether by her own hand or assisted by someone slipping her a drug) and you then pose the generic question of reasoning or fighting back with the attacker. This woman only had the first choice. To use her story as an example this way suggests that she deserved it, whether or not that was your intent.

[Runcible Spoon]

7. it's one of those things you can't really prepare for.

once you're in the situation, what you may have told yourself a million times can get lost in the panic that you are being attacked and you are powerless. And sometimes the coercion is psychological and not physical. I would like to say I would fight, but if I had any control over actions I would try to read the situation to best react. A while ago in Buenos Aires someone tried to pickpocket me, yeah it's not rape but it felt like a violation nonetheless. I caught him doing it and I'm living abroad and am not fluent in the language. my reaction was embarrassment at first and then a sense of triumph that I had caught him in the act but I didn't attack him, I just glared at him and kept spitting "HIJO DE PUTA" at him since we were stuck on a crowded bus and it was the only Castillano curse I knew at the time. it took about 5 minutes after stepping off the bus that I really felt like I wanted to kick his ass.

[niyad]

8. ever heard of the date rape drugs? nobody knows until they are there

[katty]

9. it's not something anyone 'plans for'-and who wld want to?!

[treestar]

27. It can happen, so what's wrong with having some idea what you

might do? There are even self defense classes out there that can give you good ideas.

[Phillycat]

63. I think that's both short-sighted and not self-empowering.

Ignoring the reality that many women will be sexually assaulted in their lifetimes is to your own detriment.

[JuniperLea]

66. The hell it isn't!!!

What the hell do you think is taught in all those self defense classes for women? Good God! These preparations have been taught for over 30 years now! WTF???

[RamboLiberal]

90. Plan for it IMHO - I've always thought the more one has considered

the scenarios the better your mind is trained to react and to react w/o complete panic. Not saying you won't be frightened - but even fear can be channeled.

[JuniperLea]

108. That is precisely what the experts say.

Well said.

[alarimer]

144. That makes a lot of sense

And rehearsal (in a class, where it is safe to do so) helps even more.

[polichick]

13. If lucid, I'd fight like hell and curse like a sailor...

Those date rape drugs have changed things so much ~ women should never walk away from a drink at a party or a bar, and then finish the drink.

[coffee_strong]

20. Since there's

alot of assuming going on, could a mod please close this? I think ppl zoned in on one sentence and didn't read the thread objectively enough to see the question i was aking.

Oh and since you asked(sarcasm) I do NOT blame the victim here in the least. If you think I do, then that's on you. Geez I see why everyone in the lounge always badmouths GD now.

since nothing constructive will become of this, could you please close this. thanks!

ETA-NEVERMIND MODS. SINCE THIS THREAD HAS STARTED TO TAKE A TURN for the better could you leave it open. thanks.

[AuntPatsy]

21. It would depend on the situation, I don't think any one of us could accurately predict

how we would respond in such a situation, male or female, it seems people forget that men are just as capable of being raped and this should not be ignored, I would imagine there are countless male rape victims more fearful of talking out than perhaps a woman would be for fear of the supposed laughter they would face, that to me is more than sad.

[IndianaJones]

22. this is a lighthearted change of pace for a Friday. nt.

[treestar]

25. It would depend

I don't know for sure, but depending on the situation. Say a young kid, then talking him out of it might seem possible.

One thing that always sounded sensible to me: tell them you're menstruating. Seems plausible it might work on some, at least.

I would tend to think fighting would make it worse, but then maybe it's an instinct. Then again, instinct does not always serve one well, so it's best to try to be prepared for such things to the extent possible.

Self defense classes give out some good ideas too - where to aim for and things like that.

[coffee_strong]

29. treestar, thank you for

actually trying to engage in a dialogue and bring us back to the point of my post.I'e also heard of such stories as you've mentioned working.

[BlackVelvet04]

78. Or better yet tell them you have an STD. n/t

[dysfunctional press]

26. wouldn't the circumstances of the rape dictate that?

not all rapes are equal, and not all rapists have the same mindests, motives, and responses. and while virtually all rapes are crimes of violence- the level and type of violence can vary by quite a lot.
i don't think that anyone can honestly say what they would do, until/unless they are actually in that situation...

and of course- they could always just "lay back and think of england".

[Avalux]

28. I'd urinate on myself.

I took a class a long time ago; it was one of the things we were taught that would make the rapist stop.

[coffee_strong]

30. sparo

Interestingly a college student actually used that tactic. She urinated as her rapist was trying to remove her underwear, and he fled. She thinks it was a combination of her yelling, and that-that spared her!

[TomInTib]

37. Fingers down throat.

Vomit is a heck of a deterrent.

And, coffee_strong, don't let all of the knee-jerks here inhibit you (which, obviously, you haven't).

I always wonder how many of these "You don't know what you're talking about" people know just what the fu*k they are "talking about".

[JuniperLea]

64. "You don't know what you're talking about" people

You got that right! We should just tell all psychiatrists and psychologists to go fuck themselves because they can't treat rape victims if they haven't been raped themselves. Hell, if they aren't schizophrenic, they should not be treating schizophrenics either... if they aren't bi-polar, they should keep their opinions to themselves.

Perhaps brain surgeons should undergo brain surgery before doing surgery themselves.

Funny how the English language contains words like 'empathy', yet humans can't be empathetic?

[polichick]

31. It's important to consider what you would do so that you can put the plan into action immediately...

This sounds a little crazy, but for women who don't usually curse it's particularly important to practice the nastiest phrase you can think of so that you have it when you need it. An attacker wants an easy and passive target ~ surprise the hell out of him!

I know from experience that this can save your life. A knife-wielding whack job would've killed me a few years ago if I hadn't recalled what I'd heard on a TV program about self-defense. I cursed the creep out as loudly as I could, calling as much attention to us as possible and struggling out of his grasp ~ I was too much trouble for him and he was afraid he'd be seen, so he fled. Turned out he had killed another woman that same day.

[JuniperLea]

69. Best post of the thread, polichick!!!

Good on you! You did exactly the right thing! I'm so glad you posted this here. Women CAN be prepared. It frightens me that so many WOMEN are posting crap here that indicates that 1) women CAN'T prepare themselves, 2) that no one can be empathetic to a situation like this unless they have experienced it, 3) that so many WOMEN would post such hostile things when someone is obviously wanting to discuss a very serious issue!

There are plenty of self defense classes for women, plenty of the same info on the Internets as well.

[polichick]

86. Thanks!

Ya never know when just mentioning something could help someone else out of a tight situation.

I've actually come up with even more vulgar things to say since then ~ asking my husband and sons which ones freaked them out the most. LOL

[JuniperLea]

110. When the student is ready, the teacher will appear!

I'm betting your husband and sons are all for you practicing and trying to prepare... we all hope you never have to use your new-found mad cussing skills... hehe.. but still, I bet your family appreciates your efforts.

[jmg257]

32. Why not shoot 1st and talk later? NOT being funny, but if this is a real fear

(and understandably so), why don't more ladies prepare (better) for it? Why decide to be a defenseless victim?

Is being armed not worth the aggravation? Curious...

[niyad]

35. a gun can easily be taken away and used against you. and some of us

simply do not have, and will not use, guns.

[jmg257]

39. Fair enough (and thanks for the response). I don't agree with the 1st part

because that could be overcome with training (and...mindset(?)), which I think is very important anyway re: such a serious responsibility. But I do understand that thought. Your latter responses I guess deserve another "why?".

My wife does not carry a handgun, and I should REALLY ask HER why. To me the process (here in NY) and extra care involved is well-worth having the ability for defense. And rape seems to me like the worse crime one be subject to after murder. I do worry about her because of her job and the sometimes late hours she must put in. I HATE thinking about it - it IS creepy. Anyway, I couldn't convince her it may be worth it. (I have to work on my daughter!)

It seems if one isn't that concerned about being a victim, the I could see the reason for avoiding the hassles of handgun ownnership/carrying - a decided trade-off I guess.

[kimmylavin]

41. Well..

A LARGE number of rapes are not of the unknown assailant, grabbed on the street type.
They are date rapes, and usually perpetrated by a person who knows the woman he's raping.
You're generally not packing when hanging out with someone you know.

Also, I think to suggest that anyone who doesn't want to carry a gun "isn't that concerned about being a victim" is strange. I don't carry a gun because I hate guns. Case closed.

[jmg257]

45. Again - understood, Sorry - no offense meant, I was trying to

contrast..."a viable solution" with "the perceived threat"(??). Anyway, hating guns is definetly a good reason not to want one!

Cheers!

[RamboLiberal]

87. And some of us will use guns

Made up my mind a long time ago as a woman that I'm going to fight back in all likelihood. And I've backed up that mindset with quite a bit of training in martial arts and tactical handgun. I'll be doing my best to empty that mag into the attacker if he ever made a grab for my gun.

Can't say I won't be killed or injured, and in fact I fully expect that latter and hope I've built the mindset to handle, but I'd rather go down fighting.

[supernova]

33. Would definitely size him up

and make a decision about whether I could take him or not.

Beyond that I can't say.

[niyad]

36. years ago, a woman in Chicago (II believe) awakened in the night to find a man in her room,

apparently intending to rape her. she grabbed him by the balls, twisting and squeezing with one hand while she phoned the police with the other. apparently when the police arrived, the man begged to be taken into custody.

ah, for the days of 8-inch hatpins.

[guitar man]

38. my ex girlfriend years ago

...was jumped by a guy who was trying to rape her. She always carried a pair of pliers with her and I never knew why until then. She begged him not to hurt her and acted like she was going to go along with it, then she turned the tables by grabbing hold of his penis with the pliers :wow:

The cops caught up with him at an emergency room later :evilgrin:

[RamboLiberal]

94. Smart girlfriend and a great choice of weapons I hadn't even

considered!

[guitar man]

97. she was from Chicago originally

...grew up in a tough neighborhood on some mean streets. Funny thing was, now that I remember, the guy didn't go to the ER because of his penis, he went because she had picked up a chunk of broken asphalt and busted his head open with it while she had hold of his tallywhacker with the pliers!

[Blue_In_AK]

40. I am a reasoner

I've talked my way out of a couple of really scary situations. I know I would lose in a fight.

[JuniperLea]

42. The first thing I did when my daughter asked about such things...

Was to impress upon her how sensitive a man's genitalia are... kick him in the nuts.

All of my kids were taught to yell, scream, kick, fight, and don't stop. That's what I did when accosted at age 10, and it worked like a charm.

Rape is not about sex. I fail to see the logic in trying to talk someone out of a violent rage when they are already at the point of trying to rape another.

[kimmylavin]

43. Hard to do a hypothetical.

Whenever I was asked what I would grab from my home if it burned down, I had a long list.
Then my home burned down, and all I took was my sister and the pajamas I was wearing.
I was grateful to get out of the situation with what was important - my family.

Whenever I was asked if I would fight a potential rapist, I said hell yes.
Then my friend raped me and that fighting back simply did not happen.
I was just grateful to get out of the situation.

[coffee_strong]

52. jmg257-many women carry

They just don't talk about it as much as men.

Reason number 1) they don't want to be judged!

[Phillycat]

61. If you want to reply to a post, you can click the "reply" button

at the bottom of every post. You don't have to reply to the main thread. :hi:

[NashVegas]

58. So Sorry, Kimmy

:hug:

[kimmylavin]

103. Thanks Crisco...

:hi:

[Phillycat]

59. As a rape survivor, I really don't understand the vitriol of the first few responses

to this thread. :shrug:

I didn't get that you were judging from the initial post, I thought you were just asking a question and thinking about something that SHOULD be considered by every woman just in case god forbid it ever happens!

I was too drunk to fight back when I was raped, but unless an attacker had a gun these days, I would fight with everything I had not to let another person touch me in abuse ever again.

[coffee_strong]

70. Thank you everyone for making me see rational

people post here,and sorry for the one who have been raped. I wonder if I would have made a long elaborate post of a personal rape, if I wouldn't have gotten my head chopped off? Just b/c people choose not to share their stories with complete strangers does not make them void of the experience, and nobody's experience is any worse, and nobody's experience trumps anyone else's experiences. You never know..what someone reads on tuesday, could save their life on thursday. How many times have we heard somebody performed cpr, or the heimlick, only to have seen it on a tv show or a movie?!

[JuniperLea]

79. Exactly...

And what would you rather see your daughter read? That a woman has no choice but to give in to a rapist? Or that she should fight back?

I hope every woman posting here goes immediately to Google and finds a self defense class for women in their own neighborhood. They are all over the place.

[noamnety]

142. I understand why people are objecting to your posts.

It's that either/or mentality: That a woman has no choice but to give in to a rapist? Or that she should fight back?

I believe you are misrepresenting (or simply misunderstanding) what others were saying. Lionesspriyanka had a good point, that the only person in a position to speak about a rape is the victim of THAT rape. I didn't read her posts as saying she believed other people did or did not have personal experience. I read it as the circumstances of each rape are different. She's not saying don't fight back. She's not saying don't take a self-defense course. She's not giving advice one way or another, but your post that I quoted here, and some others, falsely imply that she is saying don't bother with self-defense. No, that's not it.

What she and others have pointed out is that this thread sort of comes at the issue as though the default situation for rape is that you don't know the rapist, or don't know them very well, and that they don't hold some sort of emotional or financial or power situation that goes beyond the momentary power that a stranger/acquaintance rapist would have.

I think they are saying that a whole hell of a lot of rapes happen in situations like, say, a husband raping a wife, a father raping a daughter. A self-defense course is a very different thing in that scenario, especially if the husband or father is financially supporting the family. Then it's a situation where you aren't choosing between "giving in" to a rapist or fighting back. You're choosing between being homeless, maybe putting your kids out on the street as well, and not knowing if you will be able to provide for them, or submitting. In other cases, emotional abuse and power games come into play as well. And the finances of going after your own provider ... lord, that will put you in a bind like no other. A husband hits you, you are already stretched so thin that you can barely afford groceries. If you call 911, he will get hauled away - but then you will get legal fees. So now what? You do without food because the primary salary is going to defend the abuser instead of feeding the victim?

Nobody here would give the advice to "stay with your abuser." I think we all understand that, in the same way we should be able to understand that Lioness and others were not saying "submit to your rapist." I think they were saying that people need to be more understanding of the day to day realities of rape, which very very commonly do not fall into the sensationalized version that we tend to hear about most. (And I would add that I think there's a reason we only hear about the sensationalized ones - because otherwise we have to confront the ugly truth that it's not a few psychopaths doing all those rapes ... most of them are just normal guys, it's a normal part of our culture.)

I think what some people here are objecting to is the black and white portrayal of rape victims as always having free will because in a great many cases, free will is not exactly free, any more than a sweat shop worker has "free will" to submit to those conditions or not. And I think they are objecting to the portrayal of rapists as random people you can just walk away from when you are done attacking them. Sometimes yes, sometimes no, but only the person in that particular rape scenario knows.

[coffee_strong]

146. lwfern

Very well thought out post. There's a saying...you can catch more bees with honey. You made sense, without all the self righteous accusatory speak. Thanks for taking the time to rationally right all of that out, and state some interesting points!

[Reterr]

83. I don't get it either-I thought the OP was interesting

Very sorry to hear about what happened to you :(.

[Raejeanowl]

76. I Would Gouge His Eyes Out

Rake him with my keys, pee on myself and him, crack his Adam's apple, splinter his shins and insteps with my size 11 feet, send his septum up into his brain, bite his penis in half, and act like I'm seriously crazy and hallucinating.

I am a large, strong, smart woman and you don't want to mess with me when I'm angry.

Having said all that, I am picturing Indiana Jones taking out the gun and just shooting the swordsman (Raiders or Temple?)to end the discussion.

[JuniperLea]

81. Good for you! Those are some of the many things...

Taught in self defense classes for women.

[RamboLiberal]

89. One successful self-defense I remember reading

and that was when one woman was forced in to oral sex - she bit down very hard.

In some situations that may be one helluva good self-defense.

[I work for workers]

116. The problem with things like "punch him in the dick" and "eye gouge" is

every man expects a women to fight like that. If you can pull it off, great, but its not nearly as easy as people make it out to be. The best way to prepare for the worst case scenario, actually being raped, is to regularly take some kind of legitimate martial arts class.

I'm going to start a new thread about this, because it will probably get lost here and I have a pretty strong view on the issue.

[JuniperLea]

127. I just Googled up a bunch of those classes

They are all over the place, and many are recommended by local police departments, women's organizations, etc.

I cannot understand for the life of me why so many WOMEN here are willing to give up their right to fight, or their right to be properly informed! But to tell other women that you can't prepare is not only disgusting and naive, but it's dangerous!!!

Women! Stop doing a disservice to other women! Educate yourselves instead of this visceral and misplaced reaction!

[RamboLiberal]

92. Back in my disco days

Yes I'm that old this was one reason why I would drink but never get shit-faced. I just never wanted to be in the position of not having full control of My Body and Mind. And I realized getting that drunk was a danger being female.

Of course back then while you'd hear of guys slipping a girl a Mickey(yeah my mom cautioned me about that), there wasn't the date rape drug.

[coffee_strong]

96. Rambo

I'd cringe everytime I'd see a woman leave from a bar/club alone with a guy that was stone cold drunk. After awhile you can tell,who's with who, who just met for the first time, whos friends etc, but you can't force people not to leave.

[Breeze54]

93. Yes. I have and the anwswer is ---

YES!!!!

[doodadem]

95. I can tell you what I did that worked.

Nearly 20 years ago now, I went out for a quick five mile run before my husband and I were to leave for a play that night. At the time, I was training for a half-marathon, and was in the best shape of my life, doing distance runs, as well as, speed work on the track.

A couple miles down the road, this guy jumps out of the bushes and grabs me. He had a stocking over his head, and was wielding a large butcher knife. I yelled my freakin' head off, and then spun around and started running back toward the guard shack of a large manufacturing plant I had run past. The guy stayed with me for a bit and kept grabbing me, I finally made it to a row of trees, locked my arms around one, and kicked the hell out of his shins. He kept saying, let go or I'm going to cut you.

I finally gave him one more good wallop and took off at a dead sprint. I outran him, and made it to the guardshack. He took back off the way he'd come.

The guard took one look at the blood all over me, and called 911. Then, he came back out to yell at ME, because I was so pissed off, I kept kicking the hell out of the side of his little building. Within minutes, there were cop cars everywhere and a helicopter. Within 30 minutes, they had caught this guy running down the nearby interstate. He had turned his jacket inside out to change the color, and of course, taken the stocking off his head. He was bleeding. But the minute I walked up to the cop car to see if I could I.D. him, he started bawling and confessed. He was charged with attempted kidnapping, attempted rape, assault, and attempted murder.

He turned out to be 17 1/2 years old, with a wife and young baby. He was also a martial arts instructor at the local YMCA, and did weight training. He had looked HUGE to me at the time! Turns out I was the last in line of a number of women he had assaulted in the area. The blood on me was actually his, where he had apparently cut himself with his own knife. I had a couple of shredded up knees where he'd tried to drag me across the pavement. He had thought I was some vulnerable young girl, because I had my hair in a ponytail, and big Oakley sunglasses on. And like I said, at the time, I was this skinny little thing in running shorts.

The senior officer on the scene turned out to be an old friend, and my almost father-in-law! (His son and I cohabited for awhile in college). He took this very personally, and called me to let me know they were trying to turn this guy back loose as a juvie. He had me call a TV reporter he knew, and I was interviewed about the whole thing as my 15 seconds of fame. Also, all 3 running clubs I was involved with, and my cycling club, etc. got involved in a major letter-writing campaign to the DA, newspaper editor, and so forth, to try this guy as an adult.

It still ended up in juvenile court, but I was asked to make a victim's statement, which I did. The guy showed up with his entire family, including the waling baby. The judge gave him the maximum sentence he could, which was juvie jail until he turned 18, at which point his record would also be expunged. That sucked.

BUT.........I ended up arranging women's self-defense classes with the police dept. That helped me recover. The officers made me a gift of this nifty little brass keychain thing, that innocently looks like a cat's face, but when you put your fingers thru the holes, you have these nice big spikes on top of your knuckles. They told me to aim for the eyes or the throat. I never ran without it again, and still have it.

That's my story.

[Breeze54]

148. You are a fighter!!

What a hellish thing to go through!

Thanks for sharing your story and I'm glad you fought back!!

Good for you!! :hug:

[RamboLiberal]

154. Fantastic - you thought on your feet

He sure got a wake up call - probably thought he was bad-ass with his MA training and his knife. And you are certainly proof that fighting back can work.

Hope the idiot who attacked you learned his lesson.

[western mass]

156. There's research....

I read a metanalytic review (a compilation of data from many studies) some time ago showing that, in stranger-rape situations, women who fight back are much less likely to be raped. The idea that fighting could lead to greater injury to the victim was somewhat, but only weakly, true.

Very empowering story.

[Pastiche423]

158. Weakly true?

What crap!

I wish I had talked w/the officers working on my case before I was violently raped and beaten. They told me that the majority of women that fought back were injured worse (or died).

And mine was stranger rape.

[western mass]

164. You can listen to anecdote..

or look at a large body of compiled data.

[Pastiche423]

168. Where is this large body of compiled data?

[ourbluenation]

100. ok - not only was I too drunk to push my date raper off me when I mumbled "no" but...

I also work at a sexual assault agency where we teach self defense classes.

If I was sober, I could have kicked his goldbricking ass. But since I was inebriated I was unable to. But I said no and that makes what he did legal rape.

[coffee_strong]

101. You are right

no ALWAYS means no!

[Ilsa]

102. I was in a state of shock and trauma when I was being raped.

There was no room for creative thought in my brain. The reptilian part took over and sought only survival. I lost about half of my vocabulary for a couple of days, I was so traumatized.

And no, i wasn't drunk and on a bad date. My home was invaded and I was targeted for assault. Yeah, that kind of rape still happens to women.

[Breeze54]

149. I'm glad you survived, Ilsa.

:hug:

[angstlessk]

104. Not to hijack this thread, but I was forced into a car at gun point

and talked my attacker out of raping me...probably because he was more scared than I was rather than my great gift of gab. He ended up driving me home and asking me for a date...of course I declined the date!!! But I was foolish enough to show him where I lived. Thank GOD he never showed up on my doorstep. I was a teenager at the time.

[sandnsea]

113. oh my god, bless your heart

You are so incredibly lucky. I have always heard that the situation you describe is the most dangerous, the most likely to end up really badly. That you're supposed to fight to the death before you go somewhere with a rapist. I am so so glad you came out of it okay. :hug:

[angstlessk]

123. Thanks for the consolation, it was many many years ago

I don't think about it at all, but this reminded me. Thanks again :hug:

[annabanana]

145. down memory lane for me too..

I had a knife pulled on me in Central Park, shortly before Christmas.. Probably in the early 70's.. He started steering me towards some bushes. I saw some people in the distance and started begging, LOUDLY. . .He ran off.

I was lucky. No one knows how they will react. I don't know what I would have said if someone had asked me that before it happened.

[Breeze54]

151. Now that's pretty scary!

:wow:

Guns and assholes holding guns pointed at me scare the hell out of me!

You were very smart to talk him out of it! Do what ever it takes!

I'm glad you made it out of it unscathed. :hug:

[NorthernSpy]

126. I would turn savage...

:nuke:

[Dorian Gray]

139. I'm not that strong physically....

but I think that I'd fight it. At least yell or something. I just don't think I'd lie down quietly, especially if it was someone that I knew. (When I come home late at night, I always keep my key between my clenched knuckles. It's one little protection that I learned. So, if someone grabs me, they're going to get htat in their eye!)

[SammyWinstonJack]

143. Are you for real? If so, wtf?

[marlakay]

147. When I am real scared I "freeze" up

I had a fire cracker thrown under my bathroom door once as a practical joke by my brother...not funny and boy did he get in trouble but I froze...couldn't move to do anything to it or even cover my ears.

I am not a strong woman and couldn't fight anyone. I wonder if many think this way. Wouldn't know what to do if attacked.

I probably would freeze in the beginning and then try to reason or manipulate my way out of it. Depends on if I was scared out of my "wits".

[Truthiness Inspector]

152. Some advice

Since you know that about yourself (which is excellent self-awareness) you can do something to change your reactions. Get some friends together and practice "scenarios"---over and over and over---where you practice being attacked and what you would do to the point that if it happens in real-life you will automatically fall back on those reactions because it will be ingrained in you.

Joining a self-defense class would be ideal, so PLEASE consider that. If you aren't able to do that, try the scenario practice with friends. You'd be amazed how you can can go into auto-pilot once you've trained to react to bad situations. Getting yourself out of the "freeze" mode is important. As long as you aren't "frozen" you can at least think and evaluate your options, therefore increasing your chances of survival.

Just remember that the biggest goal is to SURVIVE.

[doodadem]

170. Very true

In the classes I helped organize, and the few I've been to since, we were taught to survive--even if it's not pretty. For instance, one lady instructor said, GRAB the knife by the BLADE, if that's what the guy has. She said, you may get your fingers cut to the bone, but it will keep it from going in any vital parts of your body. Thank goodness I've never had to put that one to the test again!

I think, and most of these classes tended to agree, that stranger rapes are crimes of convenience. The guy that attacked me admitted that he was driving down the road I was running on, saw me, turned around and drove back past me and parked up ahead to way-lay me. He thought it was going to be easy--some skinny little teenager out by herself. If you put up much of a fight, they'll go find easier pickin's somewhere else. I froze at first when this guy jumped out of the bushes at me too, but survival instincts kicked in hard.

I will still, to this day, nearly jump out of my skin if someone startles me from behind. I've also roundhoused a few people by reflex. So......don't do that!

[uppityperson]

153. It depends on a number of factors. Each situation is different. No 1 answer.

How serious is the perp? Weapons? Who, where, when, how? What is each person's mental state (I was sober and raped by a drunk boyfriend, no weapons but fear of being beaten as I had in the past). It all depends on a whole number of things.

[Lorien]

155. Agreed. If a stranger attacked me, I think that my instict would be to fight

him tooth and nail and curse him loudly while doing it. However, an ex-boyfriend assaulted me not long ago and I talked him out of the worst of it. I allowed some things to happen because I, like you, didn't want to be beaten. I analyzed the possible outcomes and enduring sexual assault was more palatable to me than ending up in the ER (or worse. So yes, what it takes to survive in one case may be the wrong reaction in another.

[uppityperson]

163. Indeed. Sounds very similar.

hugs to you

[Lorien]

169. To you too

:hug:

[Anais_98]

157. ok

I have to ask something: Why are we even talking about self-defense for women when we have yet to even address the culture of violence we have in this country?

If you really want to lower the incidence of rape, here is what you should do.
* Impose tougher sentences for rapists (no man convicted of rape should receive a nine-month sentence IMHO).
* Rape victims need greater access to the legal system- a conviction rate of 2%, or whatever it is now, is not going to deter anyone from committing this crime
* Teach young men about rape in school- it should be part of the curriculum
* Provide more funding to sexual assault services and awareness programs
* Finally address the systematic oppression of women in society

These will, in effect, do more to prevent rape than any self-defense class.Self-defense training may stop a few rapes, however it will not do more than that. It is not a solution. The only solution is a systemic one, as I have outlined above. To suggest that rape victims should be responsible for protecting themseleves by taking self-defense classes, when society fails to offer them any protection, is disgusting. It only works to further belief that women are responsible for rape.

And I believe that with early education any person can be taught not to rape... I don't people are born to rape, I believe that are taught to rape by a culture such as ours.

[uppityperson]

165. Multi tasking.

I agree with increasing those services, that would help too. I do not think that rape victims are responsible for being raped, but I also think that learning some ways to avoid situations, learn how to not freeze when assaulted, learn how to fight back, learn how to run, could IN SOME SITUATIONS be useful also.

Rape is violence. Violence disguised as sex.

Our culture is a violent one, promoting and tolerating violence in so many ways. Why is violence showed on tv and in movies so much? I could not watch Lord of the Rings (recent one, movie #1) when it came out since it was so violent yet it is considered such a wonderful movie. Look in video stores under "action". Violence. Even movies aimed towards kids have violence. Sports can be a way of channeling aggressiveness but can also contribute by making it seem attractive. Look at ads in magazines. Media is full of it as is the toy aisles in stores. Don't get me started on lack of accessible affordable non-stigmatic mental health services. rant rant rant.

[Skittles]

160. well this is me

man, I would fight like fucking HELL with and I would make a weapon out of ANYTHING...when I was an airman in the Air Force a sergeant ended up with a broken nose and broken teeth when I smashed him in the face with a stapler and he was just trying to PAW me. However, I would never judge how anyone else might react - too many factors involved

[Horse with no Name]

161. Let me tell you about being drunk

and the reason I don't drink anymore.
Sometimes you just never know how it will affect you. Honestly I am not sure why I am even sharing this because it isn't something that I am proud of.
I am a nurse. I had a "bad boyfriend"--you know, the abusive, alcoholic, drug abuser one.
We had a special night planned. No drinking was the promise.
Of course, after the steaks were on the grill, his buddies came by and...he picked up his bottle to start drinking.
I hated when he drank so in order to combat it, I drank myself into a state of near-passing out.
I went to bed (never ate my steak by the way). When I went inside to bed, he and his buddies were still in the yard.
Anyway, about 2 in the am...he came in and woke me up with some far fetched story about needing money for something...I was still pretty groggy so I really didn't comprehend why we were going to his mother's house at 2 in the morning because I had money in my purse. Actually, key word "had".
I know from hindsight that he had smoked crack and drank all night.
Anyway, his mother wasn't home, so we drove to a friends house who...realized that I was pretty messed up...and KNEW that there is NO WAY I would ever (sober)get in the car with someone who so fucked up...basically held me down and wouldn't let me get in the car with that fool. This pissed off the bad boyfriend, so he got in the car (mine) and started racing down the road about 100 mph.
(As I was sobering up, I realized he was looking for more crack money).
Anyway, we got in the car and followed the crazy bastard, just in time to watch him sail off of a bridge at 100 mph.
I was still so messed up that I could do nothing.
All I could do was stand at the top of the bridge and look at the tail lights of my car underwater with him in it.
I was trained to save lives but I stood on the bridge vomiting while rescue crews were cutting him out of the car.
I had no idea if he was alive or dead.
One of the DPS guys told me that I needed to sit in the car because with all of the law enforcement present, I could be taken to jail for Public Intoxication. He was married to one of my work colleagues.
Having good judgment and being judged for not doing the right thing while drunk are antithetical.
I could physically move...but I couldn't react. Even when the person that I thought I "loved" could have been dying.
Maybe that is the difference that you aren't realizing.

[uppityperson]

171. &

:cry: :hug:

[JustAnotherGen]

166. I college while doing my rounds

as a Resident Assistant . . . I fought back. I broke his nose in doing so. But not every woman has the fight instinct. I would never judge a woman on what she did to keep her life.