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jpgray (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-10-07 08:34 PM Original message |
By what logic does ineffective opposition engender blame equal to direct perpetuation or initiation? |
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The Magistrate (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-10-07 08:37 PM Original message |
Well Said, Sir! |
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LoZoccolo (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-10-07 08:37 PM Response to Original message |
1. This is the logic. |
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bemildred (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-10-07 08:48 PM Response to Reply #1 |
6. Precisely. |
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LoZoccolo (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-10-07 08:52 PM Response to Reply #6 |
8. Right, and then we can have a whole nation of crazy people. |
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bemildred (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-10-07 08:54 PM Response to Reply #8 |
9. How would that be different? nt |
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MadMaddie (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-10-07 08:43 PM Response to Original message |
2. When you are presented time after time with the opportunity |
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jpgray (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-10-07 08:47 PM Response to Reply #2 |
5. That's the basic fact, which all know and condemn. I want people to ask "why?" |
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MadMaddie (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-10-07 08:56 PM Response to Reply #5 |
10. I honestly think it comes down to the fact that they are too |
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jpgray (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-10-07 09:00 PM Response to Reply #10 |
12. That's possible. Now the question becomes, what can you do? |
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MadMaddie (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-10-07 09:21 PM Response to Reply #12 |
23. Replace him with someone that will.... |
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jpgray (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-10-07 09:25 PM Response to Reply #23 |
25. And if it's a conservative district that will likely only elect a conservative? |
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MadMaddie (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-10-07 09:28 PM Response to Reply #25 |
26. You are really trying to make me think tonight. |
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jpgray (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-10-07 09:55 PM Response to Reply #26 |
42. I think that's the closest thing to a solution--lots of fed-up, determined citizens |
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sendero (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-10-07 09:42 PM Response to Reply #25 |
32. Your math is faulty.. |
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jpgray (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-10-07 09:46 PM Response to Reply #32 |
35. If I remember, more than a few did just that in 06 |
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sendero (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-10-07 09:49 PM Response to Reply #35 |
39. You know... |
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jpgray (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-10-07 09:52 PM Response to Reply #39 |
40. Nader made the same argument about non-voters. Did they vote for him? |
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sendero (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-10-07 09:56 PM Response to Reply #40 |
43. I really...... |
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bvar22 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-11-07 01:20 AM Response to Reply #25 |
56. You start with targeted campaigns against .... |
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jpgray (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-11-07 01:08 PM Response to Reply #56 |
66. I actually completely agree with regard to Liberman and Feinstein |
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LWolf (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-10-07 08:44 PM Response to Original message |
3. My thoughts: |
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jpgray (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-10-07 08:51 PM Response to Reply #3 |
7. If Pelosi tried impeachment, and it failed--to the great crowing of the GOP--would DU cheer her on? |
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Der Blaue Engel (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-10-07 08:44 PM Response to Original message |
4. I think you've got it right, jpgray |
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walldude (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-10-07 09:00 PM Response to Original message |
11. If I were any member of congress who was asked/told/forced |
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jpgray (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-10-07 09:03 PM Response to Reply #11 |
15. Would you say that Sanders, Conyers, Waxman, etc. are coerced and/or amoral? |
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walldude (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-10-07 09:10 PM Response to Reply #15 |
19. Obviously one does not convince them. My statement is just |
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creeksneakers2 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-10-07 09:25 PM Response to Reply #19 |
24. Where do you work? |
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walldude (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Dec-12-07 02:22 PM Response to Reply #24 |
74. Um.. I'm self employed.. |
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jpgray (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-11-07 03:37 PM Response to Reply #19 |
68. So what do you expect from whom, and who gets the blame for failing to meet expectation? |
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Hissyspit (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-10-07 09:01 PM Response to Original message |
13. There is more than ineffective opposition going on. n/t |
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jpgray (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-10-07 09:04 PM Response to Reply #13 |
16. What would you argue is going on? |
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Hippo_Tron (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-10-07 09:02 PM Response to Original message |
14. IMO, The legislative branch has lost its spine |
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jpgray (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-10-07 09:11 PM Response to Reply #14 |
21. That's fair. But I'd note this is a very different Congressional makeup from 74/72 |
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Tierra_y_Libertad (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-10-07 09:04 PM Response to Original message |
17. It is the failure of political parties that seek only power. |
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jpgray (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-10-07 09:08 PM Response to Reply #17 |
18. Is the GOP therefore more able to take controversial united stances? |
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Tierra_y_Libertad (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-10-07 09:31 PM Response to Reply #18 |
27. By the vote. |
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jpgray (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-10-07 09:36 PM Response to Reply #27 |
29. It's not entirely "power" or "winning," or at least, not yet. |
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warren pease (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-10-07 09:53 PM Response to Reply #29 |
41. So where's the risk?... |
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jpgray (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-11-07 03:39 PM Response to Reply #41 |
69. To me that's the really interesting question. Do you believe they behave this way by choice? |
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warren pease (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-11-07 04:23 PM Response to Reply #69 |
70. I have no idea... |
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uppityperson (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-10-07 09:11 PM Response to Original message |
20. k&r for good questions. Politics is dirty business. Are all politicians political? |
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jpgray (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-10-07 09:13 PM Response to Reply #20 |
22. There is definitely not a "right" answer to this. But hopefully we can ask the right questions |
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warren pease (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-10-07 09:33 PM Response to Original message |
28. Well, if I were in Pelosi's $1,000 shoes... |
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Hippo_Tron (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-11-07 04:28 AM Response to Reply #28 |
58. I'll admit that those leaders were far more effective than Pelosi |
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warren pease (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-11-07 10:40 AM Response to Reply #58 |
63. Very nuanced reply. Thanks for the comment and the info. |
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Armstead (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-10-07 09:37 PM Response to Original message |
30. IMO it's a chicken-and-egg problem |
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jpgray (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-10-07 09:45 PM Response to Reply #30 |
34. Fair enough. Why do voters then reject progressive candidates when they -do- appear? |
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Armstead (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-10-07 11:17 PM Original message |
We need a progressive in Mitt Romney's body |
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Hippo_Tron (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-11-07 03:57 AM Response to Original message |
57. Reagan would have succeeded as an empty suit moderate but not made any long term changes |
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annabanana (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-10-07 09:38 PM Response to Original message |
31. It is because our hearts are broken. |
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jpgray (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-10-07 09:47 PM Response to Reply #31 |
38. There is no arguing with the emotional response to this failure |
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natrat (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-10-07 09:44 PM Response to Original message |
33. omg--why not start by differentiating the 2 parties and maybe taking just a tiny stand |
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jpgray (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-10-07 10:04 PM Response to Reply #33 |
45. Just a tiny stand? What did you think of the Habeas Corpus vote? |
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Occam Bandage (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-10-07 09:46 PM Response to Original message |
36. Very well said. Thank you. |
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jpgray (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-10-07 10:21 PM Response to Reply #36 |
46. Welcome to DU! |
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creeksneakers2 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-10-07 09:47 PM Response to Original message |
37. Your title asks a great question |
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warren pease (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-10-07 10:03 PM Response to Reply #37 |
44. The good German argument... |
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creeksneakers2 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-10-07 10:34 PM Response to Reply #44 |
48. The Germans were pretty good |
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warren pease (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-10-07 11:02 PM Response to Reply #48 |
49. No. I think they've paid the price... |
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Joe Fields (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-10-07 10:31 PM Response to Original message |
47. Not trying to be nasty here, but I do take issue with a few points. |
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jpgray (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-10-07 11:11 PM Response to Reply #47 |
52. Not nasty at all. And I agree that a lack of strong leadership is certainly part of the problem |
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Stinky The Clown (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-10-07 11:12 PM Response to Reply #47 |
53. For all that you said, it still comes down to counting the votes |
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Joe Fields (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-10-07 11:33 PM Response to Reply #53 |
55. The votes aren't going to be handed to them on a silver platter. |
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Stinky The Clown (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-11-07 06:58 AM Response to Reply #55 |
60. What's the 'process' to which you allude? |
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Joe Fields (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-11-07 11:13 AM Response to Reply #60 |
64. Are you an ultra-maroon, or what? |
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jpgray (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-11-07 01:11 PM Response to Reply #64 |
67. And if you don't have the votes during or after the "process has begun?" |
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Stinky The Clown (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-11-07 07:10 PM Response to Reply #64 |
71. Please don't bother you again? |
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Stinky The Clown (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-10-07 11:03 PM Response to Original message |
50. I think you present an excellent analysis |
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rucky (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-10-07 11:06 PM Response to Original message |
51. You just burnt a hole in my Thesaurus. |
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jpgray (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-10-07 11:17 PM Response to Reply #51 |
54. Yeah, well RandomKoolzop spilled bongwater on my copy of "The Purpose Driven Life" |
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bridgit (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-11-07 06:27 AM Response to Original message |
59. It would seem the term "ineffective opposition" exists in a vaccum... |
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jpgray (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-11-07 10:09 AM Response to Reply #59 |
62. I'm not handing out white hats here, bridg |
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Perry Logan (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-11-07 07:12 AM Response to Original message |
61. Your premise is wrong. The Democrats in Congress showed the highest unity score in 51 years. |
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Hell Hath No Fury (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-11-07 11:53 AM Response to Reply #61 |
65. Dude, do you get paid... |
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Stinky The Clown (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-11-07 07:33 PM Response to Reply #65 |
72. That doesn't change the essential focts of that post, though, does it? |
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jpgray (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-11-07 08:22 PM Response to Reply #61 |
73. The easy hole in that argument is that often the "party line" position is weak and vacillating |
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