How to really save jobs. right here..right now., not a lot of effort

[Solar Power]

Yes, here is a simple formula for saving jobs in this country, and in your neighborhood or in your area. This is not something new or difficult. Most of us have done it all our lives. Yet the big corporations would have us do something else, in the name of saving "time" and some money...................So what is it????????????
............................
............................PAY YOUR BILLS WITH A CHECK....THROUGH THE MAILS.........................................
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..........DO NOT USE AUTOMATIC DEDUCTIONS FROM YOUR BANK ACCOUNT, no no no no no no no no......

In the name of convenience, and the idea that the Gas Comapany or your phone company wants to help you out..(sure) they are firing hundreds and thousands of people. Right here, in your city, state, county. Replacing them with an easy, cheap computer on line print out. You all know what I am talking about. And what about the Post Office, and people working there? (you know a job is a job..)

So, are you going to take a half an hour to an hour a month, and 6 or seven stamps, (4l cents each) to save some postal employee's job?
Or save some bill opener or bill poster's job?...The utilities and the credit card companies sure hope you save time their way... Not for your sake, but for theirs. Their selfish desire to fire as many people as possible..And most of these are local jobs. Not all, but most. They have to be..convenience for them..(or in the case of phone and credit, most are U.S. Jobs..

Think I am wrong..Ok. Just this..who is the phone company really helping when you pay on line???.. Who is really saving money?...Who is going to be fired for using direct deduction.....Whose profit line will be increased?????
...end of rant.........solar.

[knitter4democracy]

1. I hate automatic deductions.

We don't use them after the bank for our last house messed up when to deduct and bounced a whole lot of stuff they then refused to pay for, saying that, even though we'd signed up for the 15th of the month, they could deduct any time up to the 15th. I maintain that's ridiculous. So, we pay by check and mail it all in.

[Occam Bandage]

2. Similarly, we could replace

with



And create thousands of construction jobs overnight.

[Solar Power]

3. That is not the point...

We already have the skills and ability to pay with stamps and checks. It would be changing very little..Further, it would stop the firing of many many people. And quickly too. Because these companies have a schedule to the firings. They have to have this system in place. They may even have to hire more if everyone stopped this online paying..Oh does anyone really care?x( x(
..I bet you would care if it were your job........solar.

[Occam Bandage]

5. There's really no difference.

In both cases, you are decreasing efficiency for the sake of providing jobs. In both cases, nothing more is produced. Nothing more is created. No extra services, no extra goods, no extra anything is created. All that you have accomplished is adding payroll for no economic benefit.

Now, suppose that we went entirely to automatic deductions. And suppose, then, that the companies were to hire those same people that were rendered redundant by the switchover to instead sit in a room all day, doing nothing but pouring water in and out of a glass.

There would still be the same number of jobs as if everyone paid by check. It would have the same cost to the company as if everyone paid by check. And the same amount would be produced. It would be the exact same. Would that be an acceptable alternative?

[Union Thug]

9. "Nothing more is produced...."

So what? Sometimes we need to make the decision to put people before so-called "efficiency."

More importantly, however, we can make automation/mechanization work for the working people, or we can make it work the few. The technology doesn't care how it is used, nor does select one group over another. Only we, as a society, can make those choices. And unless one believes that the the few will trickle rivers of gold upon the many, the choice is clear - even when it may not be the 'most efficient*' option.


* most efficient=most profitable

[Occam Bandage]

18. Understood. But what problem would you have with automating,

and then paying the obsolete employees to do crosswords or something similarly useless all day? In fact, I would think that would be even better, since you're also providing jobs to the programmers who develop and maintain those systems.

[Union Thug]

20. Frankly, I don't have any problem with it because the

fact that we have to be asking these questions reveals the problems intrinsic to the social-economic system that we are expected to survive in. But that these jobs are not useless at all and your premise that they are equiv. to crossword puzzles is untrue. They are certainly slower than the automated iterations, but the end product is the same.

And about those American programmers and network admins, they are already being offshored in growing numbers, so, they should just acquiesce now to their more cost-effecient chinese replacements, and give up their unrealistic expectations of stable and dignified employment, accepting the fact they will have to abandon their pampered lifestyles in exchange for more efficient impoverished ones.

[Occam Bandage]

26. My premise is not that they are equiv. to crossword puzzles.

My premise is that they are equivalent to the combination of direct deposit and dedicated crossword puzzlers. And that combination would cost just as much to the company, provide as many jobs, and be even more convenient to the public.

So anyway. Does it then logically follow that we should abolish bulldozers and replace them with shovels, thus creating many new jobs? If not, why?

[Th1onein]

17. Yep, there's one in every crowd....

n/t

[lumberjack_jeff]

19. Indeed.

By resisting efficiency, here's a society which demonstrates that it values its workers.

[Donnachaidh]

4. years ago when they were working on automatic banking

It was being touted for convenience and consumers were being told it would be a FREE service. I know, because I was working for one of the big banking groups at the time. People were concerned about fees, and were lied to.

I doubt if most people even KNOW what fees they are paying, for this *convenience*. Take one month's worth of bills, go through them, and do a tally on the fees you've been charged. Then multiply it by 12. Then think of the thousands of people paying those fees, and you'll get an idea as to why the banks and the credit card companies WANT you to spend, and let *them* handle your accounts for you.

Cut up the damned plastic! Keep ONE card for EMERGENCIES. And start writing checks. Because no matter what your bank offers you as a *goodie* for using plastic - they are getting a hundred times that value out of your wallet in the long run.

[Solar Power]

6. Excellent point..

The big banks and credit card companies care about one thing only..and only one.
..........Their profit......that's all folks....
...............Save a job, pay by check and mail..................solar.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

7. 2 things

1. What about the fossil fuel required for mail delivery and transportation of employees?

2. Isn't time to envision an economy that's not based on perpetual work-consumption-growth? It is my opinion that the vast majority of jobs being done in this country are superfluous and unnecessary, existing only because we still have this ridiculous Protestant work ethic that says we have to have a job and be busy, busy, busy at all times. Entire industries devoted to unneeded consumer crap and services, and other industries devoted to endless paper pushing.

We don't need to reinstate the superfluous jobs that were eliminated by technology. If anything, I'm for using technology to replace ALL tedious, mindless, and grueling tasks. The reason it hasn't happened yet is because too many businesses can pay slave wages to human beings for a lot less than it would cost to develop the technology to replace their labor.

If people must work, how about working on rebuilding our country's crumbling infrastructure? We have bridges, roads, dams, and levies that badly need to be repaired. We need a massive alternative energy project to get us off fossil fuel. Sure some of the work on that stuff would be sucky, but people would be well paid and have good benefits, with the knowledge that they were doing something worthwhile. IMHO that's a big cause of job dissatisfaction, knowing that what you do ultimately isn't that important.

[Solar Power]

10. Of course..in the long term you are right..but what about now?

But what about the short term. Until the government and the economy create those jobs rebuilding society and improving our lives, like using building bridges, windmills, etc.
People need jobs right now. We, need to keep our jobs, not have them replaced by technology, if there are no jobs available. The government does not have enough job training programs to help those that need them. Oh my goodness. We must know how awful this is.
It isn't some economic argument, this is how people live work and have dignity. I was in Japan, Tokyo, and they had many make work jobs to provide work. We did it during the depression,and I believe we need to do this now.

[Union Thug]

12. In a 'consumer' society, most jobs are 'not that important'

Unless one defines important to mean service industry drudgery.

We need a big vision and the collective courage to pursue it to begin building the world you are proposing. But I'm afraid americans aren't willing to think big when they are so complacent and so invested in the cancerous consumerism that has been marketed to them for the past 30 years.

Other than that, I agree with you. But until day comes when we, as a society, are willing to make the big changes we need to make your vision reality, we need to take care of people in the dysfunctional system we're given. If that means writing a check instead of using automatic payments, then so be it.

[terisan]

8. I would prefer that we rev up green revolution which will build new jobs nt

[China_cat]

11. I use online banking

but nothing is automatically deducted (except the mortgage...it's the only way we could get on the twice a month payment plan to pay off almost 5 years earlier). I set up the processing date and the bank sends a PAPER check to arrive at the the payee by the date I choose. It's free through my bank.

I don't get out much, don't drive, use a wheelchair or scooter to get around. Before online banking, we ended up paying a ton of money in late charges (now, if a payment is late, the bank pays the charges because it was their fault it didn't get there in time) and people still lost their jobs.

[Solar Power]

15. I must be honest here.

If there are any exceptions to be made, this is one of them. I would say, for people who cannot get out, mainly because of disabilities, I would say it would be ok to use on line banking.
As for an over all ethical question for society, I would say no. Please, no online banking.
.. I feel it is wrong for society to fire people if it isn't necessary. And some of the large corporations, and including the PO, do offer good benefits too. This issue is at the heart our society.
In Germany, they have an excellent job retraining program. Here, who knows? It is run by the states. If I believed that people fired from some credit card department that posts checks to accounts could get a decent job elsewhere, or could get reasonable job training to get another job, well may argument would fall apart.
But, under this current government, these people care not about our jobs. I want to help now. Not in two years when a New Administration might get funding for additional job programs..And I said might. Who knows what the economy might be like.

[Breeze54]

13. I get paper bills mailed to me every month.

I only pay online when I'm running late. Got to keep the IT people employed too! ;)

[NickB79]

14. This post, coupled with your user name, just broke my irony meter

Someone going by the name Solar Power is advocating creating jobs by reducing efficiency and increasing waste. :crazy:

[Solar Power]

16. I picked solar power becasue.

Well usually, I use the word sun in forums like this..
But that was taken. This term is the first thing that came to mind.

I did not think I would be writing this thread. If I did, I suppose I would have called myself ..snail power..
Anyway, too late to change, and I didn't know that someone else had something very similar...and I am sorry I am going off topic.sorry....;-)

[NMMNG]

21. We shouldn't use online banking because it puts postal workers out of work?

But what about all of the coal miners who are out of work because some people choose to use Solar Power?

[Solar Power]

22. Losing jobs is very important.

While making fun of my name is ok, losing U.S. jobs is very serious. If coal were not so dirty, especially soft coal, and so hard to clean up,(and expensive) then those jobs would not have been lost. We must do everything possible to save jobs in this country and create new ones. Unfortunately, the creation of new jobs is tedious and not dependable. Especially when this economy is in trouble.
That is why I think this idea of not using electronic banking and paying of bills is important. Saving the jobs we have in a simple, almost costless way, is a good thing. We should think long and hard about this simple idea. Creating new jobs in this economy may be much harder than keeping the ones we have.

[Occam Bandage]

27. So you believe that coal jobs are expendable because coal is a flawed paradigm.

Couldn't the same reasoning be used to justify the loss of check-processors? That they are expensive, inefficient, bad for the environment (with all that paper waste), and inconvenient?

And what about the people who work for data-processing firms? What about the programmers who create these systems? Those are high-paying jobs requiring education. Why do they not deserve to compete for business?

[Solar Power]

28. Perhaps the coal jobs are not.."expendible"

I do not believe that good jobs in the U.S. are expendable. The coal industry in the U.S is actually doing better now. Yet the kind of coal that was mined 65 years ago in many places. did cause environmental issues. I sure wish it didn't
.. Soft coal is very very abundant here in Illinois. I wish those jobs were still here.

[Generic Brad]

29. Well, if people do as you say, I would lose my job

What did I ever do to you?

[NMMNG]

32. Just write your checks and send them off in the mail like a good boy

:P

[Generic Brad]

33. I think you're fighting a losing battle

Paper checks will always be with us same as cash. But electronic fund transfers are growing at an unbelievable pace. In general, consumers like these types of transactions more than traditional payment methods. If they did not, it would not be the most popular way to pay. And new jobs that did not exist ten years ago are being created to support that.

I certainly have no intention of getting into a GD battle over this issue. You are entitled to your opinion and the old school payment options are still available for consumers like you to use. I moved into this industry years ago precisely because I saw that was where the future was heading. I will agree to disagree.

I hope you get your bills to the post office in time so you don't get stuck with late fees.

[NMMNG]

34. I was being facetious

I adore online banking.

[Generic Brad]

35. We need a facetious icon

Until then, I have an appropriate one that should be directed at me. :spank:

[high density]

23. Eh.... I once had a job processing checks

It was a $7/hr job. Not exactly one of those great positions that leads a person to financial freedom.

[Solar Power]

24. When did yoiu get that? recently, or a while ago.

I know that 7.00 an hour ten years ago wasn't bad. At least it helped to keep you alive. Did the company have any benefits?
Jobs are a very complicated issue. Was that job worth having as opposed to sitting at home and watching TV?

[boston bean]

25. ALSO, DO NOT CHECK YOURSELF OUT AT THE GROCERY STORE! NT

[Samantha]

31. Right, I no longer use those scanners

also, when COMCAST tries to walk me thru fixing my own cable, I tell the rep I don't work for COMCAST, I am a customer and I expect customer service.

I pay my bills thru snail mail because I do not want sorters and carriers to lose their jobs.

I have been using computers since the 70s and I love them. However, I am acutely aware of the loss of jobs in this Country, and I am constantly on the look-out for ways to support the little guy. I have cut way back on my Shopper's Food and now patronize a local organic store which gets much of its produce from local growers.

Every little bit helps.

[SweetThingy]

30. I am proud to pay my bills on-line

I save paper. Think of all those paper envelopes being packed full of more paper, so that a bill can be sent. Then I have to pack that paper back in another paper envelope to send it back. Then there is paperwork to do once the bill gets there. This is for everyone you owe money. Phone, water, garbage, mortgage, credit cards, cable etc. Every month.

Instead, with a few mouse clicks I send a few electrons through a wire and I accomplish the EXACT SAME THING. Plus, I save postage and time.

[mdmc]

36. kick