53% of Americans believe in Creationism according to CNN's God's Wariors

[Dawggie]

and a full third of Americans want the teaching of evolution to be stopped.

Okay, is it just me or is America really getting stupid or have the pod people taken over?

[Horse with no Name]

1. Bullshit.

That isn't true no matter how hard they try to wish it to be true. CNN just enables the freaks to have a voice.

[TheUniverse]

What would make you think its not true?

The scientific polls say so. And in my personal experience, I know far more people who believe in acient holy books than in actual Science. Do you think every single one of the polls from every organization is rigged? That would take quite a conspiracy.

[Horse with no Name]

8. No. There is a very LOUD voice

with lots of politicians giving them a megaphone.
Creationism is bullshit.
Educated people know this.
You need to educate yourself about the dumbing down of Americans.
These holy rollers were laughed at in the 70's.
Ask yourself what exactly changed?
By the way..your anecdotal knowing far more people who believe in the Bible than those who believe in Science kind of says all I need to know about where you are going with this conversation.
Not interested, but thanks all the same.
I tend to associate with thinkers, not believers.

[TheUniverse]

10. LMAO, what elitist trash.

[Horse with no Name]

13. You are pretty transparent.

The use of the word "elitist" is a dead giveaway.
Did you get lost?

[TheUniverse]

16. Damnit you caught me.

I'm really a freeper troll. I believe Jesus will return to send all the liberals to hell, but he still loves you. I don't believe in gravity because Its only a theory. I believe that the most charitable thing we can do is donate all our money to large corporations.


There, feel better?

[Toots]

49. I don't get it

Since Freepers are almost always LIARS and Liberals are almost always truth tellers, your post confuses me :crazy:

[fascisthunter]

69. No.. Elitest Think They are right Regardless of what Facts tell them

Because a higher power tells them. That also makes them nutty. No such thing as creationism.

[HughMoran]

77. Thinking is elitist?

LMAO - what ignorant bullshit.

[Swamp Rat]

104. LOL!!!!!!

:rofl:

[TheUniverse]

132. Let me clarify why I called that elitist trash.

He basically said he looks down on me because I know some Christians. He said he refuses to associate with "believers" I am an atheist myself, but I think what HorsewithNoName was saying, was elitist trash.

[Hobarticus]

251. I rode a unicorn to work today. Doubt me? Elitist trash!!!

I've seen some stretches, but yours is by far the best, and most ambitious.

[TheUniverse]

266. That made no God Damn sense...

[Djinn]

151. yes it's so elitist

to teach kids verifiable facts instead of fairy stories written by goat herders 2000 years ago.

:eyes:

[TheUniverse]

243. Thats not what I was referring to as "elitist"

I was referring to Horse with no name's smartass attitude. He seemed to think less of me because I "associate with believers" Believe me, I absolutely 100 percent support teaching science. And I agree, this creation in 6 days nonsense has no place in public school except in maybe a mythology class.

[Ilsa]

48. Yep, and the fundies and GOPers don't want the population educated. nt

[GOPBasher]

89. "Anecdotal"????

The scientific polls say this. I wish it weren't true; I'm a former science teacher. But our wishing it weren't true doesn't mean it's not.

The majority of people believe in creationism over evolution. It's a stupid country, sorry. I wish it were smarter.

[Homer Wells]

234. I would be quite interested to see

how very "scientific" this poll is. A poll, no matter who runs it, can be skewed to make anything appear "proven". This term "scientific poll" is way over used, much like another post I read here today, regrading how "experts" have shown that "Global Warming" is a fallacy because a few of them have disagreed with 3000+ others that AGW is not man made.

Go figure.

[The Straight Story]

112. I have to agree with TheUniverse poster - I know very few people who

believe we evolved from apes (which is how they say it when they do). But then, I grew up in a fundie area and now live in Bakersfield where things like global warming and evolution are seen as a bunch of BS from anti-christian liberals (and since the bible predicted such attacks on the faith would come people take faith over science in the debate).

My sister just went to the creation museum last month.

Of course, I don't know many people anymore so I am just a small sampling :)

[Le Taz Hot]

206. I know it was a rhetorical question

but you asked, "What changed?" What changed was Reagan. He was the first to start courting the nutjob fundamentalists thinking (correctly) that their numbers would put him over the top to win the 1980 election only 6 years after Nixon resigned in disgrace. That election was the beginning of the end for this country.

Sorry, carry on.

[Dawggie]

11. Uhhhh. More people that believe in ancient books than actual science?"

Damn, bro. I'm sorry you have to live in such a world.

If I had to decide which ancient book I had to believe in it would be Greek mythology. Older and way more cooler.

[TheUniverse]

18. Yep, God of War is awesome.

Zeus really puts yahweh to shame.

[Arkana]

175. "I WILL make you suffer!!"

[treestar]

75. I don't think it has to be either, or

There are people comfortable with both - the less literal religiious people can accept science as proven facts, evolution as a viable theory yet still believe in a Creator who started it all. Some people can't understand why the fundies think is has to be literally as in Genesis or there's no God.

It's hard to maintain a literal belief in what is in the Bible without being insane. The average person can deal with the Bible as symbolic yet still value the religion (the New Testament, for example, doesn't have all this stuff. The Old Testament can be considered historical, more or less - every religion has something about how the world was created).

There is a lot that you can't believe literally in the Old Testament. Men who lived for hundreds of years, got stuck inside a whale, etc.

[jedr]

24. And what makes you think it's true??????

Was this poll (or polls) taken outside a Baptize church in the Midwest or in New Jersey? I can give you a poll to prove most anything. CNN's job is to sell soap and considering that most educated people have given up on MSM. they're just catering to those who watch. I think it's hogwash, used to enable a small group of people into developing it's American Talaban. I sure am glad my kids are out of school and aren't subjected to this medieval folklore. When Bush used the Christian right to get into office he opened Pandora's Box! If you want your children to learn folklore instead of science, then send them to a religious school, but keep your personal religious beliefs out of public education. ( or is this just one more way to destroy public education and create a working class to compete with slave labor):grr:

[TheUniverse]

26. I am a atheist.

I really have no personal beliefs, so trust me, I won't force any beliefs on anyone. Im just saying I see no reason to believe these polls are fake because they are right in line with the rest of them. I know very very few atheists so I have no reason to doubt any of the statistics.

[jedr]

27. Still think that 53% is off the mark;

and that CNN is catering to those who watch. Sorry for the rant, I don't know you personally and jumped to many conclusions...so we can agree to disagree....:toast:

[muriel_volestrangler]

45. A link to dozens of polls on this subject

http://www.pollingreport.com/science.htm

It tends to be 45-55% of people think God created humans exactly as the are in the last 10,000 years, with no descent from any other animal.

[KittyWampus]

66. You mischaracterize the polls, as they all ask different questions. Some of those questions

are long winded. Many people are probably not even sure of definitions or what's actually being asked.

People hear "Creationism" and think it just means a deity created the Universe. They probably don't realize it negates Evolution.

And even when a poll does explain what Creationism is, people just don't pay that much attention nor do they listen to the whole question.

Example:

In first poll, 53% are apparently sure/somewhat sure evolution is true and yet in the same group of people 66% are apparently sure/somewhat sure creationism is true. In other words, in the first poll people gave contradictory answers to the two questions.

"Evolution -- that is, the idea that human beings developed over millions of years from less advanced forms of life"

18 35 16 28 3

Only 28% said DEFINITELY false.

We don't know what those who said "PROBABLY false" meant by their response. It could very well be those people didn't understand or listen closely enough.

Many people think Creationism simply means God created the Universe and don't realize it implies evolution didn't happen. Or if they DO accept Creationism, it's with the caveat that it's to be understood symbolically and not literally.

Furthermore, that 28% is about the percentage of Americans that are Fundies. So, it seems most likely that a more likely number of Americans who believe in Creationism and reject Evolution is only around 25-28%.

[muriel_volestrangler]

81. No mischaracterization

10 of the polls specify "god created humans as they are, within the last 10,000 years". There's a consistent 45-50% choosing that option, when asked.

"Some of those questions are long winded. Many people are probably not even sure of definitions or what's actually being asked."

Well, they're long winded because they explain the definitions. You can't have it both ways.

Yes, there must have been some people who answered 'probably true' for both the "creationism" and "evolution" options in the first poll. That shows there are some stupid people. The polls when they're not allowed to say both are 'probably true' are in the 45-50% region - and that's when they could still have said they believe evolution, but God-guided, as another option.

"So, it seems most likely that a more likely number of Americans who believe in Creationism and reject Evolution is only around 25-28%".

The same poll has 39% saying creationism is definitely true - so that's the minimum number for the fundies.

[ProfessorGAC]

267. Do You Know The Methodology?

How about the actual framed questions? On a topic such as this, the poll can be easily distorted to inflate the results.

I take any such poll, unless it's simply a choice (Hillary, Edwards, Biden or Barrack?, with no qualifiers) the sample size will almost always have to be very large, but usually isn't.

So, the scientific validity of the results suffer. Just thought you should know. You don't have to have facts to create doubt. You need the facts of the survey to alleviate doubt.
The Professor

[Toots]

47. If this were true evolution would not be taught in every school in america

The few have tried to push their creationist views onto the rest of America through many ways but have been rebuffed every time..If in fact the Majority of every single community in America wanted Creationism taught in school it would be taught. The Majority is usually reresented by their lawmakers. If the Majority wanted Laws changed to make it happen those Laws would be changed.

[MindPilot]

54. The majority wants an end to the Iraq occupation.

That's not working out too well either.

[Thothmes]

208. I would disagree

From what I have heard in the past, a majority of Americans believe that a woman should have a legal right to terminate a pregnancy without interference
from anyone. If a majority really believed that, then we should have a law passed by Congress and signed by the President making this legal in all states. We do not have this. Instead what we have is a tenuous ruling by the Supreme Court (Roe v. Wade) based on an interpretation of the XIV Amendment to the Constitution. Add just one more conservative Supreme Court Justice, and watch a right that a majority of Americans support disappear.

[Swamp Rat]

107. "The scientific polls say so." - CNN does not conduct 'scientific' polls.

One reason Americans are so ignorant is that they believe cable news.



CNN does, however, conduct 'polls'.

Here ya go:
http://www.amazon.com/How-Lie-Statistics-Darrell-Huff/dp/0393310728/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1197833087&sr=8-1

[muriel_volestrangler]

114. Do you believe anyone has ever conducted a scientific survey?

Or do you dismiss them all?

[Swamp Rat]

195. What odd questions!

:D

[muriel_volestrangler]

202. Why 'odd'?

Some people do think that all surveys are hopelessly compromised, and can never give any meaningful answers. They feel that only a certain type of person will answer a survey, whether by phone or face-to-face, so you don't get a proper sample of the population. If you feel this way, then calling a poll 'unscientific' is fair enough.

But if you do accept the results of one poll, on any subject, then you have to have proper reasons to reject other polls. "That doesn't sound right" doesn't cut it as a reason.

[Swamp Rat]

245. We live different realities.

[muriel_volestrangler]

246. I don't know why you single out cable news

This was probably either the poll carried out for them by Opinion Research for the program, or the one carried out for them by Gallup a couple of years earlier (which did report 53% believing God created humans as we are now). Is it that cable news uses these companies, and they're unreliable? Are there any reliable polling companies?

[SharkSquid]

44. HOW DARE THOSE FREAKS HAVE A VOICE!!!

Lets get a Gag-order on them immediately. Maybe the patriot act can help?

[fascisthunter]

70. Try Not to Over React

sooo dramatic

[fascisthunter]

72. BINGO

and righties are here to defend it with all they have... lol. Sad, but transparent.

[SharkSquid]

123. Yes because we defend the rights of people to trust in faith over science

Without being insulted we MUST be Righties, you are a credit to Progressive thought everywhere.:eyes:

[Marr]

Who said you shouldn't have a right to your beliefs?

I believe the OP talked about dismantling legitimate science education because some religious people demand it. Do you honestly believe that your "freedom of belief" means you can run roughshod over the rights of others?

You are free to believe anything you like. You are *not* free to force those beliefs on others.

[Marr]

227. I agree with you-- I think these sorts of surveys are very unreliable.

First, they're usually conducted by groups with a serious bias. They want a certain result.

Second, it's very easy to word these types of questions in a way that puts the interviewee on the spot. They want to give the "right" answer-- the one they assume their interviewer wants to hear.

I've no doubt that the US has an unusually high level of fundamentalism, as developed nations go. I've seen some reliable studies that back up that assertion, but it's not so extreme as this result suggests. We're not nearly *that* backwards.

[Bolo Boffin]

2. I'll have to look at the question

Is that Six-Day Creationism, or is it open to "God using evolution"?

[Dawggie]

7. It seems to be those that state unequivocally that if it wasn't said in the bible, it isn't true.

Electricity, anyone?

[Mojambo]

3. I could believe it. Americans aren't really into reality these days. n/t

[Bigmack]

4. Watch the first 5 minutes of the DVD "Idiocracy"... nt

[RaleighNCDUer]

9. Very funny,

and yet, scary.

[bowens43]

5. America is getting dumber.

The greatest threat faced by our country comes from the 'believers'.

[Union Thug]

6. Drop EVILution and get with the "Talking Snake Theory" of

human origins, dammit!

And let's burn a few witches while we're at it!

My GAWD this country is full of 'morans.'

[Disturbed]

14. It all gets down to that millions refuse to believe that humans

evolved from apes. Their bible says that mankind was created in the image of their god. Their god cannot be an ape. The bible was mainly written by men who dominated women. These men had superstitious notions & in order to dominate other men & woman they conjured up potent magical stories. Now days men control others through economic forces & weapons.

[magellan]

31. And they'd be right, because humans didn't evolve from apes

Humans and apes evolved from a common ancestor.

[SidDithers]

35. Great minds, and all that...

:hi:

Sid

[magellan]

37. Not so great, I replied to myself -- LOL

Beer's on me! :toast:

[magellan]

36. Oops, wrong place n/t

[SidDithers]

34. Humans didn't evolve from apes...

I'm sure you know that, but it's worth saying again. Humans and apes both evolved from a common ancestor.

Sid

[HamdenRice]

41. Wrong again Sid

Maybe you mean humans did not evolve from chimpanzees, gorillas or any of the modern species of apes in existence now.

But the human-chimp split took place somewhere between 5.3 and 7 million years ago, and possibly as long ago as 10 million years (according to some theories).

But apes, the common ancestor, emerged by at least 18 million years ago. So, yes, humans did evolve from an ancient ape species.

It's always humorous to read hectoring corrections from the point of view of the erroneous!

[SidDithers]

67. So, humans and modern apes evolved from a common ancestor...

Thanks for the confirmation.

Sid

[HamdenRice]

99. Check your subject line: "Humans didn't evolve from apes..."

Humans did evolve from an ape species.

Sorry, wrong again Sid. You are confusing "ape" with a modern group of ape species. The common ancestor was an ape.

If you cannot see that my post does not confirm yours, then not only do you need a refresher in taxonomy, you need a refresher in reading comprehension.

[SidDithers]

121. Right, common ancestor...

Thanks again.

Sid

[HamdenRice]

152. So what you are saying is that nothing you post can be trusted?

Your original subject line is obviously, manifestly, egregiously wrong. This has been pointed out to you. Yet you persist in making believe that you are right.

So this means that when you post something incorrect, even after it has been pointed out to you that it is manifestly wrong, you will persist in the fantasy that it is correct. So you have no internal censor that says, gosh, I've posted something incorrect; I should admit my mistake? In other words, you don't have the maturity that many DUers have, to admit when they are wrong? You don't have that self correcting mechanism that helps us assume that most of what is posted, is posted in the good faith belief that it is correct?

So, Sid, why should we believe anything whatsoever that you post is intended to be true, rather than bullshit, or possibly bullshit that hasn't been corrected?

That's cool, because that's what I assumed that about your posts all along!

[SidDithers]

165. Common ancestor, exactly...

glad we agree.

Sid

[HamdenRice]

200. So from now on, I can assume the "Sid Dithers Discount"?

Your subject line was: "Humans didn't evolve from apes..."

That is manifestly WRONG. Yet you refuse to admit it. In the face of absolute refutation of one of your many errors, you continue to make believe that anything I wrote confirms your error.

So from now on, I will discount as false every single post of yours. Let's call it the "Sid Dithers Discount."

Thanks for confirming what I already suspected.

[SidDithers]

210. We agree on so little...

I'm glad we're together on this common ancestor thing.

Thanks again.

Sid

[HamdenRice]

220. So if humans did not evolve from apes, what did we evolve from?

Frogs? Bats? Ferns perhaps? Adam's rib?

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Sid, you're giving the creationists a run for their money in the woo woo department!

Or should I just take everything you wrote in this subthread with the Dither's Discount?

[SidDithers]

222. Take it however you want...

but we both agree that humans and apes evolved from a common ancestor, and that humans did not evolve from modern apes.

Sid

[treestar]

78. Here is the inarguable and undebatable evidence:

[HamdenRice]

102. Bush's syndrome explained: “Backward evolution” spawns ape-like people"

“Backward evolution” spawns ape-like people

Feb. 21, 2006
Special to World Science

An editor of a noted scientific journal says he has discovered a genetic defect that seems to set back the clock on human evolution by more than a million years.

Its victims walk on all fours and mouth a primitive language, the scientist reported. He added that the syndrome may literally undo eons of evolution, and thus reflect with some accuracy what our ape-like ancestors were like.



<end quote>

More at:

http://www.world-science.net/exclusives/060221_unertanfrm.htm

I wonder whether the primitive language includes such gems as "rarely is the question asked is our children learning?"

[MindPilot]

203. Apparently that is unimpeachable evidence. n/t

[defendandprotect]

190. Keep in mind the native Indian called us the "pig people" --- we're actually more pink than beige!!

Also keep in mind the various religous bans on pig eating!!!

[RaleighNCDUer]

12. Speaking as a pure state/church separationist and atheist, I have

to say this is the best argument possible for teaching the bible in public schools.

Most of the most virulent true believers have never read the damn book, and don't know what it says. They'll never see the inconsistancies and absolute garbage from what they get at church, if they even go to church. With the bible, as with most things, familiarity breeds contempt.

Force it down their throats in 7th grade, and they'll never buy into it.

(And I am only half kidding)

[provis99]

28. You may actually be on to something

If anyone has carefully read the Bible from beginning to end, it looks less like a book of holy wisdom and more like a book of horrors written by insane sadists. Take any passage out of the Bible that isn't regularly read in Church or suggested reading lists, and ask a Pastor to explain what the hell it means. Geez, I can't even figure out what the heck is so holy about the book of Numbers.

My favorite insane passage from the Bible: 1 Samuel 5:6. God smites the people of Ashdod with hemorrhoids.

[SharkSquid]

155. Yawn

Welcome to damn near every book written 5000-1500 years ago in the Middle East/India. Crazy, violent world = crazy violent stories.

[proud2BlibKansan]

15. Are they just quoting a fundie preacher

or is that a real statistic?

I heard one of these idiot talibornagains a few months ago say that 90% of Americans were evangelicals. But I know that's bullshit.

[frogcycle]

17. talibornagains

love it!

[Cha]

19. god's warriors lie..so

there's that.

[spanone]

20. i ain't buying that shit....

[Dawggie]

229. Then try this link

What Americans Really Believe
And Why Faith Isn't As Universal As They Think
by George Bishop

http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/fi/bishop_19_3.html



The tables don't translate well in a cut and paste and the data is from 1991 but is still astounding in America's gullibility.

[alfredo]

21. what was the margin of error?

[Horse with no Name]

22. 50%? n/t

[alfredo]

30. Must have been done for Fox Neuz.

[Ishoutandscream2]

23. Oh, I believe it

You can't swing a dead cat without hitting a church around here. And yes, the vast majority of those churches are very fundy. Including a mega church.

[stillcool]

25. And what percentage of DU'ers..

believe this shit? I love how the phrase 'believe' is used and abused.

[creeksneakers2]

29. Most Americans believe God created the universe

The majority believe in evolution too. They aren't mutually exclusive.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

32. Hey I'm happy that 47% don't.

I expected the believer number to be even higher.

[Zebedeo]

38. Me, too

I think the actual number is likely much higher than 53%.

[depakid]

33. "is it just me or is America really getting stupid or have the pod people taken over?"

Americans may be getting stupid- but CNN is full of shit and lost its credibility a LONG time ago.

Might as well believe Fox "news" or Gallup- who will tell you that 75% of Americans believe that angels are watching over them....

[Capn Sunshine]

39. I doubt that over 20% of the population is religious

Frankly, those people and their polls are lying for Christ.

[Solar_Power]

40. You haven't been in any Southern state then

[MedleyMisty]

174. I've lived my whole life in a Southern state

I've known maybe two fundies.

Is this a generational disconnect? Because honestly, the South that I grew up in and live in is a lot less religious and racist than people here claim it is.

Maybe it's also an economic disconnect. When I worked at the Arby's in the town where Andy Griffith grew up almost everyone's significant other had differently shaded skin pigments and one of those interracial couples was also homosexual. Never saw a burning cross anywhere.

I know, it's all anecdotal, but personal anecdotes are better than prejudice and stereotyping so hey.

[readmoreoften]

191. I live in what is probably the most liberal town in the South and there are fundies everywhere.

And if you go outside the city, you see tons of fundies. Just because we've made some progress doesn't mean that these people don't exist.

[MindPilot]

51. You have it backward.

20% is the generally accepted top end number of Americans who are NOT religious.

[Solon]

90. I think he's referring to church attendance...

The amount of Americans who go to church at least weekly is somewhere around 20 percent or so. That would be, if you get technical, the most "religious" observers of the religion. This is always an estimate, however, because polls usually show about 40% of American go to church weekly, however, that also isn't accurate, because at least half those people lied. Comparing some church sizes and attendance, they find that the polls are inaccurate by a factor of 2 or so.

[Djinn]

154. you kidding Capn?

Having just returned from your lovely shores I was ASTOUNDED at the over the top god bothering. I knew all the stats beforehand but you don't get it until you see it, just how ridiculously religion infects public life.

[blogslut]

42. link please?

[Dawggie]

71. Sorry. Here's a link to the report site

http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2007/gods.warriors/

and a link to a general piece on the poll: http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/08/22/gw.poll/index.html

[ThePowerofWill]

43. I know tons of folks who believe in Creationism.

However, most of them also believe in evolution. I guess you might call it intelligent design, but they do agree the Earth is billions of yrs old, and dinosaurs roamed the earth before man. Most also take a very liberal view of the 7 days of creation stating, "we have no idea how long 7 days ight be to someone who is eternal. The concept of Adam and Eve viewed as when the first sapiens had true human thought.

The above represents the largest portion of Christians. The orthodox by the book variety is in the minority.

[spoony]

46. Yes, technically the ones who believe the earth is

only a few thousand years old are "young earth creationists" and you're quite right, they are the minority. This poll question sounds like it mashed the different sorts of creationism together.

[muriel_volestrangler]

83. No, as far as where humans come from, "God made them with no evolution" is the biggest group

See the surveys in post #45. Several gave these options, with results in these ranges:

God Guided The Process 29-40%
God Had No Part 9-17%
Created In Present Form in last 10,000 years 44-48%

(if the "in the last 10,000 years is omitted, that section goes up to 51-55%).

[RiverStone]

231. then 53% don't believe in the literal Biblical wording...

The 6 days + 1 for rest deal.

So then maybe we are only talking a much smaller percentage believe the earth is flat? Rather misleading poll then eh?

[MindPilot]

50. Hold on. Evolution is not something you get to "believe in"; it just is.

Evolution is as real as gravity, climate, electricity and magnetism. What makes it work is the subject of considerable study, but it's existence is simply not open to question.

[muriel_volestrangler]

88. They don't believe the evidence

They think fossils are animals killed in Noah's flood, and that sedimentary rocks were all laid down in that flood (and that ice cores where laid down in thousands of layers during that flood, too). They think that radio-isotope dating is a fraud. If pushed, they'll admit that bacteria and viruses develop resistance to drugs, but they'll call that 'micro-evolution' and they're adamant that's completely different to one species giving rise to another.

They think the universe is just 6000 years old, and any evidence that says it isn't means that the normal laws of physics we measure now have not applied in the past. When you only admit to a 6,000 year old universe, claiming the evolution of species hasn't happened is a minor point.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

52. The 'moron'' comments here disturb me...

We are tolerant?

I'm going to out myself here: Despite the fact I think Bush is the worst president in history, that we need to have government be an instrument of enforcing or rights and our liberties, that corporation need to be paying their fair share, the fact I support unions, the fact I think proposals like the 'marriage amendment' are complete and tole pig crap aimed at only scoring political points, despite all this I believe in the Bible account of creation.

Judge me on my political views not my religious views..


Apparently despite the fact I have an Engineering Degree, and among my electives was evolutionary biology I'm an idiot who cant understand science. Please separate out people who want to push their faith on people from those who hold a faith you disagree with!

[Stuckinthebush]

53. Why?

Just curious - not bashing.

Why do you believe in the account of creation of the world that is written in Genesis? Are you saying that you believe it literally (God started with nothingness, created light in one day, the next day..etc.), or that it is a story to explain that a supreme being created all that is? I think many Christians would agree with the latter but not necessarily with the former.

Thanks.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

55. THe question is not bashing no need to worry ;)

I believe because I have faith, its not a blind faith but its what the spirit has given me

I believe that God as in the God of the Bible created existance from nothing and himself exists outside time..

[immoderate]

62. Can you give an example of what would be a blind faith?

Sounds like you believe because you have faith, and you have faith because the spirit has given you this belief... :shrug:

--IMM

[muriel_volestrangler]

91. What is your view of the physical evidence?

Do you accept a geological age for the earth of billions of years? Do you accept the radio-isotope figures for fossil animals and hominids? Does your spiritual faith specify that the age of the earth is just a few thousand years, as opposed to a universe considerably older? If so, is that something you feel directly, or do you just feel that God wouldn't allow the Bible to be wrong in any way, so that you have to accept everything it says?

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

95. I honestly dont know

Days could have been epochs..

What I do know is this:

If God is capable of forming an adult make from the earth he is most likely capable of forming an adult earth.. Complete with appropriate amounts of carbon-16.

[muriel_volestrangler]

113. If you think God capable of anything, then the bible story is possible

but that doesn't mean it's what happened. With the suspension of the physical laws that we have now (which you'd need, with things like plants being created before the Sun, as Genesis claims), you could have any creation you want. Is there any particular reason to think the writer(s) of Genesis had the correct story, rather than the other people who claimed they knew the creation story? Do you think that what science sees as convincing evidence of the non-biblical history of the Earth and universe is just coincidence - or was it actually made that way to test people's faith?

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

119. Like I said, there is alot I dont know

Let there be light could be the placement of the sun, Im not going to get into it here because my point was not to start a debate with a class of people who don't want to hear it. I was pointing out that if we want to call ourselves tolerant we have to stop assuming that if someones faith leads them to a different conclusion that they are slackjawed idiots..

Statements like 'An Engineer, no way'

Why the heck would creationism prevent me from designing a new drug? or a bridge? or a communications protocol. Why the heck would having faith drive me in this manner make me a moron? Or even ignorant?

Ive seen the argument: well if you knew science like me you would have to have all the same life conclusions so therefore you must be ignorant! wow talk about bigotry..

[muriel_volestrangler]

127. I suppose the worry is that if you think the laws of physics changed a few thousand years ago

then you may be designing your bridges etc. in the expectation that the laws of physics will change in the future. More realistically, it may be a worry that your standard of evidence is different from other engineers - that if there is a conflict between the bible and modern evidence, you'll favour the bible - or even something a priest tells you. More likely to be a problem if you're designing a drug than the other examples.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

133. Again what does it matter

If I think (the laws of physics change 10,000 years ago) Ill put my understanding of them now up against anyone and do pretty well most of the time.

[muriel_volestrangler]

138. It may well not matter, in practice

But if, for instance, you thought that since the earth is 6,000 years old, and that the Ice Ages had never happened, you might not believe that global warming was happening now - which might be a problem if you were a civil engineer designing flood defences, or a mechanical engineer designing an automobile engine. It would be more of a problem if you were in a management position in those areas, though.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

140. All you had to say was:

"It may well not matter, in practice"

[Djinn]

159. WRONG

I was pointing out that if we want to call ourselves tolerant we have to stop assuming that if someones faith leads them to a different conclusion that they are slackjawed idiots..

So a Nazi who basis his racial theories on his "faith" should be respected?

Why on earth should I respect someone coming to a "conclusion" based on absolutely no evidence at all? Do you respect my belief and my faith in the Easter Bunny?

If not how DARE you disrespect my beliefs, they're every bit as valid as yours as we BOTH base them on nothing concrete at all.

[SharkSquid]

161. I respect your belief in the Easter Bunny

If he really brought you eggs you would have some pretty good proof too. :)

[Djinn]

164. Bullshit

If you met me and I was seriously espousing this as my belief you'd think I was bat shit crazy, same goes for me and religious folk.

[SharkSquid]

167. I am glad that your religion gives you mind reading powers too

So you can tell me what I am actually thinking. I am incredibly tolerant and accepting of others beliefs. I used to be an atheist but I eventually came down on the side of theism in the theodicy argument. I then came back to the Jewish faith because it is rooted in my cultural heritage. I like to hear why people believe the way they do. I talk with every preacher I have time to speak to on the street or on campus or on base. I love to go to Christian Bible studies and talk with people about Jesus and theology. I honestly would behave in exactly that way and would not question their sanity, so you can call "BS" all you want, if you knew me at all you would know I was speaking the truth.

Have a lovely evening.

[Djinn]

170. then I suggest you stay away

from the mental health field.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

182. So if we could prove the intelligece of one group was highger than another

would racism then be ok because it has a scientific foundation?

[Djinn]

261. nice try

I never said anything about discriminating against religious people I simply said I hold their beliefs in no higher esteem than a belief in voodoo, the easter bunny, astral travelling or Baal.

The only analogy to be made here is with racists and the religious. Both hold their views based on myths and patently and demonstrably false pseudo science (eg theology and the belief that there are different races in the first place)

And even if your analogy made any sense at all, given the factual history of man's migration and evolution it would not be possible to prove that anyway.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

219. What a stupid statement

"So a Nazi who basis his racial theories on his "faith" should be respected?"

So a Nazi that basis their racial theories on the scientific evidence in the bell curve should be respected?

[Djinn]

259. no

because that evidence is hugely flawed - obvious to anyone with a passing knowledge of what constitutes scientific evidence.

you might want to think twice about throwing the word stupid around, glass houses and all that

[Djinn]

157. I have faith

that the mighty all seeing Easter Bunny god will soon be reborn on earth and chocolate eggs will spout from the ground.

I have no basis for this other than "belief".

Bet you a MILLION dollars you'd make some unfavourable judgements on my sanity and intelligence if you actually thought I was serious here.

[SharkSquid]

160. Ill take that bet

Faith is just that, faith.

If that theology is what helps you sleep better at night, go nuts :)

The only relevant philisophical argument regarding religion is the theodicy, everything else is a matter of my historical info v your historical info.

[Djinn]

166. whatever

I suggest you start liberating people from mental health hospitals and get them off the drugs their on. Clearly they're not suffering delusions, they just have non mainstream beliefs.

[SharkSquid]

169. You clearly are not interested in arguing this point

and merely want to attack the sanity of Theists. Fine, I hope you can find happiness living in your theophobic bubble.

[Djinn]

172. there is no argument on this point

Either, ALL views are equally valid - in which case I presume you'll announce your tolerance for Nazism, or they're not.

[SharkSquid]

201. ANY belief is fine, as long as harm is not done to others by it

Nazism does not qualify. Your belief in the Easter Bunny does, unless it begins to violate others rights.

How about you take the Nazi straw man out back and burn it, it isnt keeping the crows away.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

181. We should have known when we saw the topic...

It was time for a good old fashion witch Theist burning..

Folks can get all high and mighty about how this one aspect of belief makes us morons and them our intellectual superiors..

[Djinn]

265. yeah

you're being burnt - completely OTT martyr complex there. You view the views of MILLIONS of people worldwide with the same utter disbelief and disdain as I do the views of creationists like yourself.

If you believe (as you've stated in this thread) in the Bible story of creation (even if only in apocryphal form) then you are expressly rejecting the beliefs of billions of people alive today and billions more throughout history.

How dare you :eyes:

[Avalux]

56. You can believe whatever you want. Don't mix it up with science and facts.

And don't force your 'beliefs' to be taught in public schools under the guise of science.

Tolerance of religion has nothing to do with the FACT that scientific principles cannot be applied to creationism; there is absolutely no evidence to support it as a valid scientific theory for the existence of life on this planet. Evolution, however, is the accepted scientific answer because of the plethora of hard facts that support it - there's a reason it hasn't bee disproved for 150 years.

I am sick and tired of people mixing up religion and science. Get a clue.

[HughMoran]

59. An engineer that believes in creationism!!!!!!

OK, I've heard it all now. Oh. My. Fucking. God.

[Avalux]

60. Scary, huh?

I know I won't get an answer, but I'd like his explanation for the geological and archaeological evidence supporting the fact that the earth and life are millions of years old.

[HughMoran]

61. People are so scared of the unknown

The fact that people have been duped into believing this hogwash for so many years just shows the power of fear.

Fear of death

Fear of those not like you/foreigners (xenophobia)

Fear, fear fear - this is how the Republicans coalesce their power - religion takes advantage of people's fears - I find it sickening. :puke:

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

82. If God created Adam a fully formed adult

why is creation of an 'adult' planet out of the question?

[HughMoran]

141. You can't believe that a complicated imperfect chemical system like man was "created"

by a "perfect" being.

That is such an outlandish thought that I can't believe that any intelligent person could believe such a fabricated crock of utter bullshit! I'm sorry, but anybody that believes such inanity has to have their head so far up their ass as to have all of their senses smothered in feces. Science laughs in your face. Please return your degree to the School - they were mistaken.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

147. Whatever, Im done engaging troll on this thread

Ill just take my engineering degree and 10 years of experience using it and walk away..

[Hobarticus]

252. 281 posts, and you're calling "troll"? That's cute. eom

[Lorien]

189. Do you believe in unicorns? Because the Bible mentions them, too

personally I see the Bible as allegory, written by men, not God.They only had the scientific knowledge that existed over two thousand years ago. If they had the same knowledge we do today they would have written something very different.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

85. It gets worse

I know *gasp* doctors, lawyers, and scientist who share my beliefs...

THe tolerance on DU in regards to this seems to be so paper thin that at times its quite sickening..

[HughMoran]

168. Well, do you believe in Santa Clause too?

If you think there is a difference between Santa Clause and creationism, that is YOUR problem. Both are MADE UP and anyone with the slightest amount of intelligence who isn't scared of the unknown can figure this out easily. It's not intolerance - you believe in something that is unprovable and you are an engineer - that is laughable. Any person in any profession who believes this fairy tale is just scared of the unknown - don't go telling us about your insane theories on the origins of the Universe with NO NO NO proof at all - NONE - just the word of some MEN who wrote the book. I can't believe I live on a planet filled with superstitious morons!!

[fascisthunter]

73. Drop the "tolerance Meme"

Nobody should tolerate ignorance.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

87. Tolerence

Is putting up with crap you disagree with *not* molding peoples beliefs to be comfortable to you..

Am I ignorant of science? no

So what exactly Am I ignorant of that you cant tolerate?

[mudesi]

117. You absolutely are ignorant of science

If you weren't, you wouldn't accept creationism at all.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

118. Right casue faith = ignorance

Forget the fact I know the precepts of science and can and have done more coursework in scientific fields than most people...

Because I have a faith which leads to a different conclusion I must be ignorant..

You're sense of tolerance is as deep as a neocons concept of compassion.

[Richard Steele]

125. Again with the transparent attempts to accuse others of bigotry by putting words in their mouths.

No one's buying it- you should stop trying to SELL it.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

131. Umm exactly what words am I putting into his mouth

"You absolutely are ignorant of science If you weren't, you wouldn't accept creationism at all."

Those are not words placed in his mouth, those are the words that came out of it..

[SharkSquid]

143. Do you have trouble walking

With that big ol' head of your dicksteele. All I ever see you do is snipe and accuse.

[Evoman]

215. Well...more like...

Belief in creationism = ignorance. I'd say faith is a load of shit as well, but there are better words for faith than ignorance.

[Djinn]

162. You are insisting

that we have to rspect ALL beliefs regardless of how they came about.

I have to respect the beliefs of Nazi's because they have faith in them

I have to respect the views of Bush voters because they have faith that God told them to vote for the bastard.

I have to respect my mate's claims that the CIA are trying to kidnap her son because she absolutely believes it.

I respect views that people have come to after evaluating EVIDENCE not voices in their heads.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

176. I said no such thing

What I said is having a different belief on creation does not make one a moron..

[Silent3]

241. It does make one a moron regarding that particular subject.

Perhaps you're good at playing all the necessary games of rationalization to carve out a safe niche for creationism to live inside, within an otherwise reasonably functional brain. Perhaps you even waste good intellectual power on building elaborate rationalizations for believing in the idiocy which is creationism.

That's even sadder than being a complete moron without any capacity to know better.

[Djinn]

263. the point - cause you seem to be missing it

YOU are objecting to people's lack of "tolerance" for ignorance. When people here have said they believe creationism to be an ignorant view of the world you've berated them for "intolerance".

Unless you would make no judgments about the intelligence and mental health of someone who believed in the existence of the Easter Bunny and tooth fairy you are a hypocrite.

[JVS]

228. So what are you going to do? Are you going to kill him or something?

Otherwise you're tolerating him, which in MHO is a good thing

[Richard Steele]

80. So, if you don't believe in evolution, do you oppose teaching it in science classes?

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

86. No

If I *really* dont want my kids exposed to that (It did not break me) Ill send them to a private school. My faith has no place in the public education sphere..

[readmoreoften]

192. If you don't believe in creation taught in schools and you don't believe that the

world was created 6,000 years ago, but believe that 6000 is code for eons, I don't really have a problem with your beliefs, they don't seem extreme, but I would urge you to confront them. You keep saying that you aren't an expert on this. Maybe you really should investigate evolution. You might find that maybe your god worked in more complex and mysterious ways than you previously realized. :)

Take care, and understand that some of us here have been very hurt by religion or have seen people hurt by it.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

207. To clarify

I lean on the 6,000 yo side but my faith does not hinge on it...

I know more than enough about evolution I have taken it up to the 200 level in college. What I am not an expert on is theology..

Likewise take care and realize that many people re hurt daily by people some religious ad some not..

[SharkSquid]

144. I dont believe in the completely "atheistic" take on evolution

But that is just me, if I bought evolution exactly as it is taught there is no room for faith. So there for I concur with the theory of evolution as it fits into the worldview of my faith. I am very familiar with the scientific concepts behind it, and I concur with the methods and conclusions drawn (for the most part) drawn from the observation of the natural world and the fossil record. Do I believe in an "Intelligent Design" in the universe, most certainly. Do I believe in evolution, most certainly.

Am I a "freak" I don't think so, but if you do, I hope you have fun wasting your time on sniping people of faith rather than getting on with the important work of getting this country back on track.

Peace

The Squid

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

146. Of course youre a freak

Have you not been paying atention, youre either a freak or a mouth breather if you have any faith in anything not tangible..

[SharkSquid]

153. I must be a mouthbreather

The Navy sure has lowered their standards :(

[mudesi]

96. You are not an engineer, and you didn't take evolutionary biology

Come on.

Stop choosing ignorance over knowledge.

[Richard Steele]

98. I've got the same feeling, Lynyrd. nm

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

100. I did take evo bio

Stop assuming because I have different beliefs I am ignorant..

[Richard Steele]

103. That's not why. Not at all. Nice try, though.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

109. Nice try at what

I have an Engineering degree with evo bio as one of my courses taken..

I know and understand evolution about as well as 90% of the ppl here, I just choose not to believe it because my beliefs dictate otherwise. I dont believe that creationism should be taught in science classes, I dont think there should be prayer in school..

But hey if calling someone with different beliefs is youre cup of tea then have at it..

[Chovexani]

193. Well, I have a G.E.D.

And think creationism is man-made bullshit. :shrug:

But I'm a polytheist/animist who believes the gods evolved right along with us.

[Evoman]

218. Well, your beliefs are wrong.

If your beliefs keep you from believing a scientific fact, maybe you need to toss those beliefs away.

[SharkSquid]

158. Dick, you think anyone who dosent share the beliefs

(that you oh so adeptly drop off in one liner form) is a troll or a liar, I would ignore you but the anger you instill keeps my heart rate up which is the only exercise I get these days. :)

[Name removed]

198. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Richard Steele]

257. Yup. And I'll put my track record up against your "Local Meteorologist's" any day.

[varkam]

122. There is a difference...

between respecting one's right to believe, and respecting one's belief. The former, IMO, is tolerance.

[Richard Steele]

126. That's very well put, Varkam.

I wish I had thought of that. :toast:

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

130. I can sort of agree with that

But to assume that someone has to be stupid or ignorant to believe other than you believe is not a deep tolerance its very, very shallow..

[varkam]

150. Perhaps I should explain a bit more.

I think that, as with any debate involving deeply held beliefs, emotions tend to run hot and some of the finer points are lost on both sides. As I posted previously, respecting the right for one to believe what they will is tolerance in my opinion whereas respect afforded to beliefs in and of themselves is irrelevant to the notion of tolerance. I will state at the outset that I do not respect the idea of creationism. When speaking of it, I do not sprinkle my words with piousness and sounds of respect. To me it was an attempt of a nomadic people over two thousand years ago to make sense of the things that they could not understand. That we still rely on it to the detriment of science is, to me, simultaneously ignorant and tragic.

However, there is also a difference between respecting a belief and respecting a person who holds that belief. There are many things on which me and good friends of mine disagree (God, abortion, gun control, affirmative action, and so forth), but we are able to maintain our friendship despite our sometimes heated disagreements as we recognize that we are more than that one belief.

The recognition that despite our differences we have much in common goes a long way to rhetorical civility. I think one should always strive to be civil, even when in a heated disagreement, even when such civility is not afforded to you. I have, of course, failed at this many times. In an online pseudononymous environment, the temptation to engage in bomb-throwing is powerful - though I admit I have made few friends when engaged in that sort of behavior (and I imagine convinced even fewer others of the veracity of my claims).

In sum, I think we should always try to refrain from calling one another stupid or ignorant, as I do not think that is the case. I know that the people who make me feel as if I should bang my head against a wall are not stupid or ignorant, their beliefs in stupid or ignorant things notwithstanding.

In other words, I think there is a difference between calling a belief stupid and calling a person stupid for subscribing to that belief.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

177. I can agree with that

Lets not say Im a moron in science because of only creation..

[Djinn]

163. nicely put

I'll defend anyone's right to be a Nazi but I wont respect their belief no matter how strongly and faithfully it is held.

Same with religious views - believe what you like don't expect me to respect those beliefs because by dint of believing in religion you're "disrespecting" mine.

[Dawggie]

149. From my original OP, I did not want to disparage any main line religions.

However the folks that want to believe the bible or other such texts verbatim frighten me a bit in that they exclude any answers that aren't found in that particular text.

[Djinn]

156. why are religious views sacrosanct?

why should I only judge you on yur political views? if you're allowed to say:

I think Bush is the worst president in history, that we need to have government be an instrument of enforcing or rights and our liberties, that corporation need to be paying their fair share, the fact I support unions, the fact I think proposals like the 'marriage amendment' are complete and tole pig crap aimed at only scoring political points

why can't I enunciate my views on religion? You (presumably) think Bush voters are deluded/confused/ill informed at best so why can't I think the same of anyone who believes the contradictory stories of the Bible?

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

178. Please feel free

To question beliefs but when folks around here start assuming because of a different belief someone is a moron who can understand science they have gone too far.

[Djinn]

264. because

creationism isn't compatible with science and I don't consider it going "too far" to hold and express an opinion, odd that you do given you've regularly expressed views on Bush voters, how intolerant of you.

[Warren DeMontague]

197. Because Evolution isn't a matter of "Faith", it's a scientific FACT.

If you can reconcile your belief in the Bible or God or whatever with the FACTS of evolution and the 4.7 Billion year history of this planet and life on it, bully for you- so can a lot of people.

But evolution is not a "faith" to be "disagreed with" any more than our scientific understanding of gravity, the thermonuclear fusion that drives the sun, or the spherical nature of the Earth are. It is a scientific fact, and if people don't want their kids to learn about it, they should keep them out of public school SCIENCE classes. They can teach whatever they want in Church during Sunday School.

[Silent3]

238. What does tolerance have to do...

...with judging the quality of an opinion? All that civil tolerance requires is that I respect the right you have to hold your opinions. I am in no way obligated to respect the opinions themselves.

Perhaps you're an engineer, and are smart in many ways, but when it comes to evolution and creationism, I see you as guilty of switching your brain off completely on that subject matter, or worse, yoking your intellect with the ridiculous task of coming up with fanciful rationalizations to duck and dodge what mountains of evidence reveal.

At least theistic evolution isn't plainly at odds with the evidence. Not a particularly useful concept, as far as I'm concerned, but at least it doesn't require denial of the obvious. ("Obvious", at least, if you've taken just a little time and brainpower to examine the evidence out there in an unbiased way.) Biblically literal creationism -- even old earth instead of young earth, with its "Who knows how long those first days were?" caveats -- is completely at odds with the evidence, contrary to any sensible interpretation the data we have gathered over the past couple of centuries.

I won't mince words. I think creationism is idiocy. If you're smart enough to be an engineer, then it's worse -- it's willful idiocy. I don't consider subordinating your intellect to faith a laudible, virtuous act of some sort -- and you seem to expect some sort of respect "credit" for being oh so faithful.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

57. The Great Turtle smiles at your cynicism ...

... you animated piece of clay.

:hi:

[HughMoran]

58. Fuckin' morans

:puke:

[Beelzebud]

63. 80% of all statistics are pulled out of someone's ass.

I simply don't believe that figure, because out of all the people I know I can only think of 1 that is stupid enough to be a creationist.

[IsItJustMe]

171. Bingo!!! You got it. Lies, damn lies, and statistics.

[irislake]

64. Please, no!

I never felt it was necessary to defend our border before, now I do. (Sheesh!)

[OzarkDem]

65. Welcome to DU

Got a link?

These posts trying to encourage DU posters to appear anti-religious are getting tiresome.

[Dawggie]

74. Here's two links

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/08/22/gw.poll/index.html


http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2007/gods.warriors/

[HughMoran]

79. So the US is half fucking morons

It's settled. At least I know how to avoid them.

[OzarkDem]

94. Bogus polls

Apparently the right wing wants to use religion as a wedge issue this election cycle (they have so little left to motivate their base).

There's nothing in these articles that shows details, questions, methodology.

Bogus polling practices will become as popular as vote stealing in this race, so be careful what you trust.

[OzarkDem]

93. Neither poll in your link says that

The flaw in your "logic":

Just because someone says they are a Christian doesn't mean they believe in Creationism.

Nice try, no cigar.

[Dawggie]

105. Agreed. I never said or implied thatt.

[OzarkDem]

111. Your OP states it very clearly

that 58% of Americans believe in Creationism. You extrapolated that from a poll that said 58% of Americans claim to be Christians.

[Dawggie]

115. No, I didn't. I extrapolated it frome a quote by Christianne Amanpour (sp?)

And the OP stated 53% and not 58%.

I'm sorry that you disagree, but I just stated what a CNN reporter that I respect said on the air. I wish the links covered that particular statement, but it was a rather long series that investigated several fundamentalist religions.

[muriel_volestrangler]

128. For the record, the transcript

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I learn math, science, geography, history and Latin. AMANPOUR (voice-over): And science, specifically Darwin's theory of evolution, is a battleground for many conservative Christian parents. It's not in the Bible. And so, they think it's wrong.

(on camera) What will you teach your children about science? About where we all came from?

M. NEVARR: We'll teach them the truth, that in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. And we will certainly teach them about evolution, about the theory or hypothesis of evolution.

AMANPOUR: Hypothesis?

M. NEVARR: Absolutely. It's an unproven hypothesis. I think that's safe to say.

AMANPOUR: Will you tell them it's wrong?

M. NEVARR: You know, yes. We will.

AMANPOUR: How can you be so sure?

M. NEVARR: Well, because the word of God is truth.

AMANPOUR (voice-over): Fifty-three percent, that's more than half of all Americans, believe in creationism, that God created the earth and everything on it, as it says in the book of Genesis.

One third of Americans feel so strongly about it, they want to banish evolution from the classroom and replace it with creationism.

I spoke with religious historian Karen Armstrong about why feelings on evolution run so strongly in America.

(on camera) What do you think accounts for more than half of America believing in creationism?

KAREN ARMSTRONG, RELIGIOUS HISTORIAN: Once you say that the first chapter of Genesis is not literally historically and scientifically true, then the whole Bible becomes a nonsense.

So, Darwinism became -- it was no longer just a scientific hypothesis. It became a symbol of everything that was wrong with the modern world.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0708/23/cp.01.html

I expect it came from this CNN/Gallup poll, from September 2005:

"Which of the following statements comes closest to your views on the origin and development of human beings? Human beings have evolved over millions of years from other forms of life and God guided this process. Human beings have evolved over millions of years from other forms of life, but God had no part in this process. OR, God created human beings in their present form exactly the way the Bible describes it."
Exactly As Bible Describes - 53%

or perhaps this CBS poll, from April 2006:

"Which of the following statements comes closest to your views on the origin of human beings? (1) Human beings evolved from less advanced life forms over millions of years, and God did not directly guide this process. (2) Human beings evolved from less advanced life forms over millions of years, but God guided this process. (3) God created human beings in their present form."
God Created In Present Form - 53%

See http://www.pollingreport.com/science.htm for both of those.

[Dawggie]

137. Thank you!

[Elidor]

145. Your first link is to a poll of Christians

Not a poll of "Americans." Perhaps you have another, better link to back up your original post? Not that I don't believe that Americans are the biggest suckers in the world, but I'd prefer to actually see the poll that reflects your assertion.

[slackmaster]

68. As someone who was born four months after the launch of Sputnik

At the end of the International Geophysical Year, and having grown up during the Space Race and the accompanying push for better science, engineering, and technology education, I am continuously shocked at how far we have slipped.

[donsu]

76. I find that hard to believe

nt

[spanone]

84. MAYBE 53% of republicans believe they didn't evolve...i think i agree

[wishlist]

92. Not surprising since 80% or more believe in a Creator God supposedly n/t

[iamthebandfanman]

97. id say the majority of americans believe in both

actually.

[Arugula Latte]

101. I don't find that surprising. A huge chunk of Americans are ignorant and superstitious.

Religion and TV, the opiates of the public.

[MrScorpio]

106. WHAT?!?!?

No way

[Swamp Rat]

108. Your gut reaction is probably correct

See my response in post #107.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2476251&mesg_id=2478796

I am willing to concede that around one third of Americans are this ignorant.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

110. I created a stew yesterday. Can I call myself God and pass the basket?

[porphyrian]

116. Horseshit data from a horseshit poll by horseshit people. -n/t

[Dawggie]

120. From CBS in '04: Poll: Creationism Trumps Evolution

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/11/22/opinion/polls/main657083.shtml

Americans do not believe that humans evolved, and the vast majority says that even if they evolved, God guided the process. Just 13 percent say that God was not involved. But most would not substitute the teaching of creationism for the teaching of evolution in public schools.

Support for evolution is more heavily concentrated among those with more education and among those who attend religious services rarely or not at all.

There are also differences between voters who supported Kerry and those who supported Bush: 47 percent of John Kerry’s voters think God created humans as they are now, compared with 67 percent of Bush voters.

more at the above link.

[porphyrian]

142. Better, but still horseshit.

I'd love to see the disposition distribution, including the refusal rate, and a copy of the actual survey. I don't trust any survey report with an agenda, with good reason. I'd put big money on this being horseshit, if I had big money.

[Dawggie]

148. I would too. But I don't see any particular agenda here.

It's a frightening figure to me and one that I have been wondering about because of the number of fundies I keep running into.

[porphyrian]

173. You don't see any particular agenda? Like promoting the teaching of creationism in school?

The Koolaid-drinking, televangelist watching creationists have been pushing their agendas on all of us since 2000, with a disturbing amount of success. Teaching it in schools, instead of evolution when possible, has always been an item on their agenda, and this administration has worked with them in promoting that agenda in incredible and disturbing ways. Certainly, you have to see that.

[muriel_volestrangler]

204. Did CBS and the New York Times both have the agenda?

Or did one organisation successfully trick the other into accepting the questions you think are biased - or selecting a biased sample?

Do you claim that all the other organisations who have asked similar questions, and got similar results, are also secretly in favour of teaching creationism? Do you believe that there isn't a single polling group that aren't secret creationists - and that's why all published polls show similar results to this?

If you think that all these organisations are actually creationist, it would point to creationism being a fairly common mindset, of course ...

[porphyrian]

211. The corporate media has been promoting this administration's agenda since 2000.

Don't act like I'm making a ridiculous claim.

[muriel_volestrangler]

212. What about the 7 polls from the 80s and 90s giving similar results?

see here: http://www.pollingreport.com/science.htm

Have you seen any poll of the USA, at any time, that significantly disagrees with these figures?

[porphyrian]

221. If polls are the best you've got, you really don't have much.

This phenomenon has been happening since Reagan, who began the republican courtship with fundies, remember?

I'm right.

Edit: accidentally omitted a sentence

[muriel_volestrangler]

224. How do you think we should set about finding the opinions of the US populace

on evolution and so on? Hold a country-wide referendum?

Seriously, why do you think you personally possess the 'right' information about the attitude of a whole country?

[porphyrian]

226. I don't care about finding the opinions of the US populace.

But I know that polls are an increasingly-unreliable way of doing so. And despite your repeated snarky attempt to paint me as the only person who thinks as I do, or that what I'm saying is somehow lunatic, I'm right about this. The earth is also an ellipse, and I'm right about that too. I really don't give a shit what you choose to believe.

[muriel_volestrangler]

236. If you don't care, why worry when other people publish their results?

I'm not saying you're the only person who thinks polls are unreliable; but you did give the impression you knew what people really think (otherwise how would you know the data is 'horseshit'?). Since you have no idea what people's views are, we'll have to go with the multiple opinion surveys.

[porphyrian]

239. Who's worrying?

And I'd appreciate it if you stop making assumptions about what I do or don't know, especially with telling me that I "have no idea what people's views are," which would only be possible if I had spent my entire life in a bunker without human contact, which is not the case, genius. Go with whatever the fuck you want, just go until you have something worthwhile to say.

[muriel_volestrangler]

242. You say you don't care about finding out the opinions

and you can't know what they are without making an effort. None of us personally know a reliable cross-section of an entire country.

[porphyrian]

244. Stop telling me what I know or don't know, because you don't know.

Go play in the street.

[Dawggie]

233. No, I don't. The figure was given out as a sort of warning in the way

I understood it.

[porphyrian]

235. Well, that explains your position. -n/t

[napi21]

124. You might be missing something here. I attended a Catholic school for 12

years, and yes we were taught that God created man, but I recall, in HS I think, that someone asked the teacher about evolution. His response was what makes you think the two are mutually exclusive? YES God created man, but obviously there's no way for anyone to know what form the first man was in. BOTH opinions could well be true!

BTW, the teacher was our parish priest. He taught religion class every Friday.

[muriel_volestrangler]

129. It seems not

See reply #128 for the questions asked by Gallup ,and also by CBS, that resulted in 53% - both specify humans "in their present form", and had options for "God directed evolution" that were different.

[Dawggie]

136. I can certainly believe that. Many rational people do.

However, IMHO, the surge in fundamentalism coupled with the ever declining number of Americans with a decent education makes me worry for this country's future.

[Arugula Latte]

180. The fundies are the mega-breeders, too.

That's what scares the living crap out of me. Hordes of dumbass kids, many homeschooled by ignorant parents, incapable of rational thought, trained from birth to embrace irrational thought and mythology as fact, to be released into society to dumb us down even further. :scared:

Before I'm flamed, yes, I know many homeschoolers get a great education. I'm talking only about fundies, here.

[defendandprotect]

187. Wait . . . . you're using even distorted Bibical info --- Adam + Lilith were created equally . . .

Lilith walked out because Adam was a jerk --- what's new ?

And, yes, the Vatican doesn't preclude Evolution and Creationism ---

However, right-wing Bible nuts do --

Meanwhile, all humanity is traceable to a black Eve ---

and, we seem to be hybrids ---

Recovering Catholich, here ---

[Raine]

134. Surprised it 's not more than that

you would think so to hear the fundies tell it. I guess the "squeaky wheel gets the grease".

[Disturbed]

139. I almost laugh everytime I read that God created the Universe

in 7 days. Can't all these people even get this correct? God created the Universe in 6 days. On the 7th day God rested. After all, creating the Universe was hard work. Even God had to rest after that.

[PaDem]

135. I have no idea how the questions were asked........

and that always is crucial, but how is this surprising? Someone upthread said it best when he/she said that most Americans probably believe in both. More than 90% of Americans (including myself) believe in God. Some Christians (not including myself) believe the earth is 6,000 years old, but this group represents a minority of all Christians in my opinion.

I'm always amused by the enlightened 5 % of Americans, who are quite disproportionately represented on this site, telling the other 95 % of Americans that we're batshit crazy. I'll never be able to prove the existence of God, and I'm completely comfortable with that. Similarly I'll never be able to disprove the overwhelming scientific consensus regarding evolution and related matters, nor do I feel the need to. My faith and that scientific consensus are not at odds at all with one another. Clearly that isn't true for many Christians, including (presumably) Mike Huckabee, but it does get old seeing all Christians lumped together where this "debate" is concerned.

[defendandprotect]

188. We can easily understand that Evolution+Creationism can exist together in some minds ---

that's not the problem ---

The problem is that Bible freaks and fanatics want to ban the teaching of Evolution ---
and they have succeeded in doing just that over more than a half century ---
thru intimidation.

[TheFarseer]

179. This is simply not true

did they take a poll by calling everyone in the First Baptist Church Directory?

[defendandprotect]

183. We might consider that people who are easily directed to "god" teachings ---

are probably going to be more easily moved to authoritarian politics --- right-wing think.

These are people not doing much of their own thinking ---

[defendandprotect]

184. I'd also tend to say this is a huge over estimate, or outright lie ---

if anything like this were true, Bush would have actually been elected in 2000 -- !!!

[defendandprotect]

185. And let's make clear that religion is a PRIVATE believe system; not

connected with any universal beliefs or theories --- and should be challenged as such.

[Lorien]

186. I think the poll is horseshit

I only know of three people out of several hundred acquaintances who believe in such nonsense. The RW is turning CNN into Faux news.

[jpgray]

194. Creationism as defined as... what?

God created the fundamental mechanisms of the universe, and let it do its thing?

God designed each living organism 6,000 years ago, and evolution is a lie perpetuated by Satan?

Both are "Creationist" in that they acknowledge a creator, yet one is more reasonable than the other.

[Warren DeMontague]

199. Actually, according to MY definition, NO ONE is a real "creationist" until they can answer this:

Since absolutely everything MUST HAVE been deliberately "created" (hence, "creationism") then who created "God"?

And who created that guy?

[JVS]

230. Not everything is created, read the Athanasian Creed

Read line 8 of the creed below. The answer is that God was never created that he always has been

Now to turn the question around, do you really think that the universe came from a huge explosion, if so what caused the explosion?

1. Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith;

2. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.

3. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;

4. Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance.

5. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit.

6. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal.

7. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit.

8. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated.

9. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.

10. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal.

11. And yet they are not three eternals but one eternal.

12. As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensible, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible.

13. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty.

14. And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty.

15. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God;

16. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.

17. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord;

18. And yet they are not three Lords but one Lord.

19. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord;

20. So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say; There are three Gods or three Lords.

21. The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten.

22. The Son is of the Father alone; not made nor created, but begotten.

23. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.

24. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits.

25. And in this Trinity none is afore or after another; none is greater or less than another.

26. But the whole three persons are coeternal, and coequal.

27. So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.

28. He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.

29. Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.

30. For the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man.

31. God of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and man of substance of His mother, born in the world.

32. Perfect God and perfect man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting.

33. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood.

34. Who, although He is God and man, yet He is not two, but one Christ.

35. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking of that manhood into God.

36. One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person.

37. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ;

38. Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead;

39. He ascended into heaven, He sits on the right hand of the Father, God, Almighty;

40. From thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead.

41. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies;

42. and shall give account of their own works.

43. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.

44. This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully he cannot be saved.

[Warren DeMontague]

247. Did you really expect me to read all 44 lines of that gibberish?

You could have just posted #8. Unless you were trying to save my soul, in which case the polite thing to do would have been to ask first, at which point I would have choked my liberal elite latte up through my nose and told you not to waste your time.

I don't need to explain where the big bang came from, because my worldview isn't dependent upon having an explanation for things that involves them being "created", and I don't need to bother to extrapolate too much as to what came before the big bang, because there is no physical evidence upon which to base hypotheses-- and as such the question is out of the realm of anything but the most theoretical strains of science.

However, while there is ZERO scientific evidence for a magical invisible man in the sky who is obsessed with making sure people are married before they fuck, there IS evidence for the big bang, physical evidence in the form of 3 degrees of background radiation that permeates the universe. So, yes, I do "believe" that everything in our universe came from a big "explosion", because there is scientific evidence of it. As for what came before the big bang, no one knows, obviously, but that hasn't stopped scientists from making educated guesses as to what the larger situation might be which produced the big bang- for instance, the ekpyrotic universe is one such hypothesis.

But like I said- my worldview isn't predicated upon the idea that nothing can exist unless a big bearded white man deliberately put it there, so I don't really need to give a shit about what happened "before" the big bang. I believe under certain circumstances shit can just happen on its own.. (on a subatomic, quantum scale, particles are materializing out of nothingness -or uncertainty- and back into it all the time, if only for very brief periods).. And, really, the so-called "creationists" you quote believe shit can just happen on its own, too, as long as it's called "God" and has a vested interest in making sure they don't fuck before they're married.

The short answer to your question? What we see around us are natural processes. Life on Earth is a result of Natural processes. The sun, Earth, and rest of the solar system formed through natural processes. My guess is that the universe is a product of natural processes, too- natural processes which didn't need a giant white sex-obsessed man to put them there.

And I reiterate- for my money, if you want to claim to be a REAL 'creationist', I mean if the basis of your 'scientific argument' is "Shit, man, how did ANYTHING get here if some giant invisible dude didn't PUT it here?", I SAY you need to answer the question: Who created 'God'?

As for your Athanasians, if you ask me, they're squishy-soft on creationism and creation, because their 'creation' comes with an asterisk.

[JVS]

249. As though I give a shit about your soul. I posted it all because it's public domain and for context

Sorry for not reading the rest of your post. I scanned it, saw you offered no explanations, and past that didn't bother. Congratulations on being able to generate text that is as vacuous as the creed all on your own

[Warren DeMontague]

253. Oh, baloney. You couldn't resist the chance to proseltyze. Just admit it.

My point, Jack, is that the core of the creationist "argument" (if you can call it that) is that obviously nothing can exist unless a giant invisible man who doesn't want you fucking outside of marriage put it there. But they exempt said giant invisible man from their own dictum that everything needs to be created.

(And if "God" can just be without being created, then why can't the Universe? Why not skip the middleman?)

But science doesn't work that way. Science deals with evidence and available information. The fact that science doesn't have a definitive answer as to what came "before" the Big Bang (I put before in quotes because space and time are interrelated, and it can be argued that time as well as space didn't exist "before" the big bang.) doesn't in some way invalidate the big bang, because the big bang, unlike the giant invisible man who wants to make sure you're not fucking before you're married, has physical, scientific evidence to back it up.

Beyond that, there are hypotheses approaching the question as to what came before the big bang- I posted a link to one of them- but as near as I can tell, there are no 'hypotheses' as to what 'created' "God", because questions like that seem to be handled the way many dogmatic organized religions deal with all sorts of questions they don't want to deal with; namely- "Shut up, don't think about that, and don't fuck unless you're married".

[JVS]

254. oh yeah, the athanasian creed is a real pew filler

Are you sure you aren't just upset that your "who made god?" question goes nowhere?

[Warren DeMontague]

255. You've already told me you're not bothering to read what I write.

So I don't think you're really in any position to say what goes where.

Yes, obviously you have all the answers, so why bother.



It's flat, and big monsters are waiting just past the edge to eat you up.

[JVS]

256. have a blessed evening, infidel

:P

[Warren DeMontague]

258. No thanks. It looks kinda hairy in there.

[muriel_volestrangler]

205. See post #128 for 2 poll questions that gave a 53% answer

one of which was a CNN poll, so that was probably the one being quoted. Both are basically "God created human beings in their present form". They don't give a time span, but they are denying that humans evolved (which doesn't mean that they deny that other animals evolved, of course - they could be saying that humans are a special case). Note that "God directed evolution to produce humans" is a separate option.

[KittyWampus]

213. You assume that people actually LISTEN to the whole question, process it and fully understand.

My point upthread, people answering a poll hear "Creationism" and think "God or Creator" and don't hear, process or understand they're rejecting Evolution entirely.

[muriel_volestrangler]

214. So it's "53% are dumb in some way", then?

Yeah, could be. But it's a remarkably stable result from all the polls done over 20 years or so.

[KittyWampus]

232. It's not "dumb"- it's how people respond to polls and questions.

[jpgray]

223. Thanks much!

I have to wonder--do modern schools of religious conservatism here take a very dim view of Augustine? Or do they merely interpret him just so far as to justify their own interpretations? (I'm an athiest, incidentally) One would think Augustine's elastic definition of allegorical signs allows Biblical creationism to be "true" without directly contradicting science.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

237. To paraphrase our 42nd President....

It depends on what the meaning of the word "created" is.

If "created" means that all of a sudden, one day God plopped down man and woman out of the blue, I do not think that is a majority belief in that country. However, if "created" means a process drawn out over millions of years using evolution until it reached the current human form, then I might suspect that percentage number to be correct.

[Warren DeMontague]

196. I'm telling you, man, there's fucking lead in EVERYTHING coming over from China.

And it is sapping IQ points as we speak.

[bdamomma]

209. too much religion can make people stupid.

[michaz]

260. And sometimes, not enough makes them act like idiots!

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

268. Ah, the tried and true "I know you are but what am I" line of argumentation. Classy. -nt

[Tommy_Carcetti]

216. Literal creationism or simply a belief that God was behind the Big Bang?

If you ask me if I personally believe the world is 4,000 years old and was created in seven days, I'd say no way.

But if you ask me whether I think God was behind the creation of the universe billions of years ago, I would have no problem saying that is what I believe (not what I know, but what I believe, i.e. faith).

Personally, I've got no problem with people who believe in literal creationism, as long as they a) recognize it is a religious belief and not proveable science, and b)it isn't taught as a scientific theory in public schools.

[truebrit71]

217. No that is complete and total Bullshit...

..

[Dawggie]

225. Link?

[walldude]

240. 74% of Americans believe in Evolution says CNN's Atheist Warriors

[upi402]

248. Media propaganda and fanatics being useful idiots for the elites

THAT'S what I blame for our leming march to looney land.

[Dr Fate]

250. And at one time 90% thought Bush/media was being honest about WMDs & Iraq.

The opinion of the majority is often wrong-but it doesnt mean you cant eventually show them the truth every now & then.

[Inchworm]

262. 47% of dumbasses believe death is not inevitable

der

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