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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-19-07 11:28 PM
Original message
Planning the war on immigrants...making life here hard for them...
Planning the war on immigrants...making life here hard for them...so they will leave of their own volition. This is an interesting piece and shows the thinking behind this push by "restrictionist" groups.

I have been alarmed to watch the sudden push to scapegoat immigrants. I believe it was planned by the GOP as a way to win elections. After all wedge issues have worked so well for them in the past. It would be nice to think we have outgrown such tactics, but with the media beating the anti-immigrant drum it has become a very bad situation. One that did not need to be....not with so many sensible solutions available.

The remarks below sound like this group is advocating "bullying" immigrants to get them to leave voluntarily.


Planning the War on Immigrants

"The purpose of attrition through enforcement," according to Vaughn, "is to increase the probability that illegal aliens will return home without the intervention of immigration enforcement agencies.In other words, it encourages voluntary compliance with immigration laws through more robust interior law enforcement."

Key components of the war of attrition include:

Eliminating access to jobs through employer verification of Social Security numbers and immigration status.

...Increasing federal, state, and local cooperation, particularly among law enforcement agencies.

Reducing visa overstays through better tracking systems.

Stepping up immigration raids.

Passing state and local laws to discourage illegal immigrants from making a home in that area and to make it more difficult for immigrants to conceal their status


CIS predicts that a $2 billion program would over five years substantially reduce immigration flows into the United States while dramatically increasing the one-way flow of immigrants back to their sending communities. According to CIS, the attrition war would require a $400 million annual commitment—"less than 1% of the president's 2007 budget request for the Department of Homeland Security."

Without driver's licenses and without work because of employment-centered enforcement, immigrants will leave the country—as many as 1.5 million annually, predicts the CIS study. "A subtle increase in the 'heat' on illegal aliens can be enough to dramatically reduce the scale of the problem within just a few years," says Vaughn


Here is the assessment of that group putting forth that agenda by Right Web. They want us to have America to ourselves, pretty much.

Right Web says CIS was birthed by FAIR, the militant anti-immigrant group.

Let’s be clear,” wrote Frank Sharry of the National Immigration Forum, “CIS was birthed by FAIR, the militant anti-immigration group. The CIS executive director moved from FAIR to CIS to head up the organization. Although now independent, the two organizations share the same basic agenda: an American version of what in Europe is called ‘zero immigration.’”

According to Sharry, CIS masquerades as an objective, “squeaky clean” think tank, but CIS is “simply churning out high-sounding, low-credibility grist for the high-pitch, low-road anti-immigration forces in the United States.” This assessment of CIS is widely shared among pro-immigrant groups, but CIS studies are not only frequently cited by the “low-road” nativist forces but also by major news media. (4)

CIS has also been critiqued as being part of a network of anti-immigrant groups that cater to a white supremacist constituency by right-wing economic libertarians who believe in the benefits of mass and unfettered immigration. A Wall Street Journal op-ed (June 15, 2004), that was widely praised and circulated by pro-immigrant groups, reported that despite the fact that CIS “may strike right-wing poses in the press,” it and other like-minded groups “support big government, mock federalism, deride free markets, and push a cultural agenda abhorrent to any self-respecting social conservative.” A follow-up article in the Wall Street Journal titled “Borderline Republicans” described the anti-immigration network this way: “CIS, FAIR, NumbersUSA, ProjectUSA—and more than a half-dozen similar groups that Republicans have become disturbingly comfortable with—were founded or funded (or both) by John Tanton. In addition to trying to stop immigration to the U.S., appropriate population control measures for Dr. Tanton and his network include promoting China’s one-child policy, sterilizing Third World women, and wider use of RU-486.” (5) Replying to this charge, Krikorian wrote in National Review Online that CIS does not take a “position on anything that does not involve U.S. immigration policy.”


Hard to know who to trust anymore. I would think just enforcing existing rules without all the drumbeating, and without stepping up raids to strike fear...would be sufficient. It is pretty obvious they are trying to intimidate.

Also from Right Web....early funding for CIS. The Scaife group is mentioned prominently as funding the right wing noise machine which has started smear campaigns against Democrats.

"Early funding for CIS was channeled through U.S. Inc, a nonprofit established and still directed by John Tanton, who was one of the cofounders of the Federation of American Immigration Reform (FAIR). (3) Among the right-wing foundations that fund CIS are Sarah Scaife Foundation, John M. Olin Foundation, Jaqueline Hume Foundation, Carthage Foundation, and Scaife Family Foundation."


And speaking of working with law enforcement and stepping up raids...that is exactly what ICE is doing now.

US extends immigrant database to police

Federal immigration agents are forging new alliances with local law enforcement agencies across Massachusetts in an effort to crack down on hard-core criminals, spurring anxiety and applause within immigrant communities.

The Immigration and Customs Enforcement agency has been taking its message on the road from Concord to Cape Cod, offering so-called ICE 101 presentations to the state's district attorneys, probation officers, and, most recently, large police departments, including those in Lowell and Lynn.


It is almost risky to write about immigration in these times. Maybe that is just the reason someone needs to do so. When our country continues picking out groups to harass and scapegoat, then I realize that if it continues it will someday get around to all of us in one way or the other.

What is truly amazing is that poll after poll at this link shows immigration concerns at least 4th or 5th behind the war in Iraq, health care, and the economy.

Just goes to show you the power of the media. Most of us have been so naive and uninformed on this subject that we did not even realize, nor do we like to admit, that under the 1996 anti-terrorism law "legal" immigrants of many years can be detained and deported if they ever committed a crime. Even a misdemeanor. Efforts by some Democrats through the years to change that part of the law have not been effective as far as I can find.

The really sad part is that our Democrats could play an important role in pointing out how this administration has moved from enemy to enemy in its effort to polarize to win. They could, but they are not doing it. In both parties good people seem frozen, especially on the issue of immigration, unable to push against the likes of Lou Dobbs and Glenn Beck. Just talking of solutions that might make sense will bring down the wrath of the right wing.

They used God, guns, and gays during the last six years to win, and now they are making immigrants the scapegoat.

The polls are showing it may not work this time.
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OHdem10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-19-07 11:38 PM
Response to Original message
1. The Gop have been quite open that they intend to make
Immigration one of the central issues of their campaign.

Of course, they will make it a wedge issue.

I would never trust any poll that shows it may not work.

The Democrats will have to Pre-empt or they can make it work.

In all their comments they do not hesitate to say the Democrats
are on the wrong side of this issue.

The GOP use what I call a dark populism. work the people into
a frenzy. Then they will go to the ends of the earth to get
people out to "save civilization--in this case save our culture
and our country.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-19-07 11:43 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. But look at the poll site I posted. They all show it down the list.
That said, the media is complicit. It makes our side afraid.
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OHdem10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-20-07 12:02 AM
Response to Reply #3
7. I explained---Work them into a frenzy. and they will
be putty in their hands.

Did you not watch what they did with Wellstone funeral
and how those people were up and out and about day and
night.

Gop do not follow polls other than to identify the problem.
Immigration may be 4th or 5th--They know they can make it
number one or the voting issue.
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madeline_con Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-19-07 11:39 PM
Response to Original message
2. Don't you mean ILLEGAL immigrants? eom
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Fed_Up_Grammy Donating Member (923 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-19-07 11:46 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. Thanks for posting that---the word "illegal" is key.
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-19-07 11:46 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. Legals are getting caught up in this as well.
Edited on Thu Dec-20-07 12:06 AM by mmonk
For so called violations, many legals are being rounded up and put in prisons and such as well.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-20-07 12:09 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. Read comment 22 in this thread. Yes, legals are in danger from 1996 law
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-20-07 12:25 AM
Response to Reply #8
11. Yes.
Edited on Thu Dec-20-07 12:25 AM by mmonk
Sounds alot like what I've been running into concerning the situation. Some have been arrested for things even less than a drug possesion charge. Their plight is not mainstream news though, so people don't know. I won't support the anti-immigrant movement right now in any argument because it's something that is more omimous than "illegal aliens costing taxpayers and jobs".
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-20-07 12:28 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. The media must protect Little Boots and his agenda....
Whatever that may be. It is hate-filled and dangerous.
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sadiesworld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-20-07 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #12
31. You simply can't be this delusional.
Neither the media nor Bush is anti-illegal-immigrant. There are big bucks to be made off of cheap labor and at the end of the day, that's all they care about.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-20-07 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. They are not anti-gay or anti-abortion usually either.
Not most of them. Of course they are using it. I don't have a clue why you said that to me. :shrug:
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sadiesworld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-20-07 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #32
38. I thought you were suggesting, as I believed you had in the past, that
the media and Bush were anti-illegal-immigrant. Other than a few right-wingers (who focus on immigration-related racial issues rather than economic ones-a practice that has been around forever and ultimately is intended to shut people up about illegal immigration lest they be called "racists") and Lou Dobbs, the press treats illegal immigrants with kid gloves. Like Bush, the media love cheap labor. As for the dem candidates, they aren't talking about illegal immigration b/c their positions are totally unpopular. I can only surmise that the dems are concerned that the issue resonates more with people than you'd like to believe, or your stats indicate.

As for abortion and gay marriage, these issues don't have an impact on the bottom line so they aren't terribly comparable. I will say that one person's "wedge issue" is often another's primary issue.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-20-07 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #38
43. So immigrants are your primary issue? Not mine.
I believe in enforcing laws in a fair way, but trying to change the ones that will jail or deport someone who was here 30 years and legal....or letting them die in a camp as I wrote about above. A lady died without medication, many are doing so. She fell from a bunk and despite the screams of her cellmate...she died before help came.

Yes, I believe they are using them as a wedge issue, and that it is failing. If people spoke out more about being common sense about it, it would be better.

It is the Bush administration policies that have hurt our country so badly. It is not the immigrants who caused the policy.


"I can only surmise that the dems are concerned that the issue resonates more with people than you'd like to believe, or your stats indicate."

They are not my stats. They are stats from about 10 or more polls.
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sadiesworld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-20-07 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. I never said that (ILLEGAL) immigraTION was my primary
issue although it is a component of The Cheap Labor Movement and, as such, it is very important to me. My primary issue is the war in Iraq and a possible action against Iran, if you must know, but I bet like the people in your polls illegal immigration is still of the utmost concern. BTW, you seem to be spending a fair amount of time on an issue you profess not to care about.
I AM curious as to how you use "wedge issue". Are you saying that a wedge issue is an unimportant one? That people don't care about wedge issues? Is the issue of aortion/choice important to you, or is it a wedge issue? Hmmm...where does abortion/choice rank in your polls?
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-20-07 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #44
45. When people take my words and twist them.
after I took time to work out a thorough post, then I figure they are only into arguing not trying to understand. Life is too short. Bye.
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sadiesworld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-20-07 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #45
46. Point...
mine.

See'ya.
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nxylas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-20-07 09:44 AM
Response to Reply #8
16. Just to clarify
That only applies to non-citizen immigrants, like myself. Once an immigrant becomes a citizen, they cannot legally be deported. Personally, I don't have a problem with that in principle - immigrant status is a privilege, not a right, and if people commit crimes, I don't see why their residency shouldn't be revoked. That doesn't mean I agree with deporting people over stupid things like smoking a jazz cigarette 30 years ago, though, especially when people end up dying in police custody before they can be deported.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-20-07 12:20 AM
Response to Reply #2
10. That distinction is not being made by many who demonize these people
The minutemen in California are going to day labor sites and verbally and physically assaulting the laborers. They don't ask to see their green cards before they assault them.
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nxylas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-20-07 09:36 AM
Response to Reply #10
15. I suspect the distinction being made...
...is between hispanic and white immigrants. I'm a white immigrant from an English-speaking country (the UK) and I've never been hassled by these people. Funny that.
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-19-07 11:44 PM
Response to Original message
4. In a fascist shift, countries invoke internal enemies or "threats"
to fear. Mistreament becomes acceptable to the populace at large.
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DBoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-20-07 12:15 AM
Response to Original message
9. replace "illegal immigrants" with "Jews"
just to see how dangerous this is.
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Marrah_G Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-20-07 10:29 AM
Response to Reply #9
18. The two are NOT the same.
They aren't even close.

Or do you have some super secret knowledge about Illegal immigrants being murdered, gassed and slaughtered by the millions by the government?
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DBoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-20-07 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #18
49. so illegtal immigrants deserve to be persecuted
and Jews in Germany in the 1930's didn't?


It doesn't take mass extermination to create a scapegoat for social problems and to persecute that scapegoat.

Once it is OK to treat a group as less than human and not derserving basic rights, the rest can follow easily.
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rockymountaindem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-20-07 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #9
47. Um, what?
That's a dumb comparison. The Jews of Germany were native-born citizens entitled to the protection of their citizenship who suffered the laws being changed right before their eyes. The illegal immigrants in the US now are *not* native-born nor naturalized citizens who are *not* entitled to the benefits of citizenship and who know they are breaking the law when they come here. They should expect that laws against their presence might be enforced. It's hardly the same as having your own country start making it impossible for you to live there. Besides, I don't see millions of deaths at the end of this road, either.
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DBoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-20-07 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #47
50. as said above
Once you start targeting a group as a collective scapegoat for social ills and decide they are not deserving of basic human rights, the rest follows. The psychology is similar, the morality is identical, and the results are inhuman.

I've read a right wing "pundit" argue for the feasibility of mass deportation, as the Germans managed to accomplish the same thing during the 1940s. That is where the politics of mass deportation leads. When you decide a group of millions of human beings are expendable, you end up in the same place regardless of how you got there.

And if it lead to only hundreds of deaths, would that be OK? After all as long as we aren't as bad as Nazis, then there is no grounds for complaint.

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pingzing58 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-20-07 01:34 AM
Response to Original message
13. Many U.S. born and legal immigrants were forced to leave under the Mexican Repatriation Act of 1930.
It's happened before and will happen again and again and again. When will we ever learn? For more information on the repatriation of people of Mexican heritage beginn by reading:

<http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2006-04-04-1930s-deportees-cover_x.htm>
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RedCappedBandit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-20-07 02:27 AM
Response to Original message
14. Republicans are good at one thing
They're good at not being able to learn from history.
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One_Life_To_Give Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-20-07 10:22 AM
Response to Original message
17. Screw the Union, we got illegals!
While most illegal immigrants are some of the hardest working, most motivated people around. They are being used.

Iron workers being offered up to $20/hr (a 1960's union ironworkers wage) to come to Phoenix. Meat packing plants lammenting having to hire americans to rep
We can't sacrifice the poor and minorities born in our own cities just to help the hardworking people who were born abroad.
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Wcross Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-20-07 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #17
21. Some people here don't see it that way.
They don't understand that if you increase the supply of available labor wages are depressed. They see nothing wrong with people breaking our immigration laws and competing with native born workers. I suspect they are not seeing the effect on American workers in their day to day world so they claim it isn't a problem. I disagree, when you add 15-30 million workers to our economy you WILL depress wages.
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-20-07 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #21
33. Many of those pro-illegal immigration people around here have relatives from South of the border.
Edited on Thu Dec-20-07 01:54 PM by TheGoldenRule
They are very vocal for this very reason-they have a vested interest. They totally ignore that workers legally here are being exploited too and that the wages for those workers have decreased dramatically and that illegal immigration has hurt everyone on both sides of the issue.

And I take issue with that attitude because it's extremely self serving.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-20-07 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #21
36. That really was not the point I was making.
I took a long time to try to make my point. I see too many knee-jerk responses who just saw one word and jumped.
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Wcross Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-20-07 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #36
39. Was I responding to your post? No.
I was responding to One_Life_To_Give's post.
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UTUSN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-20-07 10:33 AM
Response to Original message
19. Exactly correct o.p. Besides the official harassment, low tech PREJUDICE works, too
I got flamed for a thread regarding a LEGAL Mexican working as a welder in Missouri. I've known him for about 3 years, when he passes through on his holidays back to Mexico.

As flamers do, they seized on one detail and had a riot. I relayed what HE SAID, that he makes $50-60 per hour. They heaped contempt on this, claiming that the max is $15-25 per hour.

The rest of his story was that he has experienced a definite increase in anti-Hispanic interactions from the natives. In past years he has worked in North Carolina and other states, so he has a broad spectrum of comparison.

His specific example this time was that he was in line at a bank where his company is a customer, to cash his paycheck, when 20-30 other Hispanic laborers from his company entered the bank en masse. HE SAYS that an Anglo bank employee woman, whom HE SAID, was obese, confronted the group and said, "Why can't you all find some other bank to go to? This isn't the only bank in town."

I was thoroughly flamed for RELAYING what THIS DUDE SAID to me. First it was the part about the wages. Also the part about her being a fat lady "gringa" which I translated as "Saxon". Also that supposedly NO bank employee would run off business. And then the usual flaming about my "being a PLANT" and "bullshit" and other personal asperaguses. As is also usual with flamers, they would not let the thread die, kept kicking it up from pages 2 & 3 back to p. 1.

Last night I saw the dude again and informed him of what happened to me. He said, "Do you want to see my pay stub?" I said that, no, it wasn't me claiming he was a liar, that I was just telling him what his story cost me.

Again, as is usual with flamefests, the flamers managed to divert attention from the real point of the thread, which was the anti-Hispanic hysteria that the "illegal immigration" issue is fostering, and which is very well laid out in THIS thread.
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DaveJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-20-07 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #19
35. I'm not sure where you got anti-Hispanic vibes from that thread
If anything I think people are irritated by how much money the guy is making, but that had nothing to do with his ethnicity. A lot of us are underpaid for the work we do, and as a result, are poor and destitute. $50-60 per hour hits a nerve because it really is what people need to make in order to live a comfortable middle class life. Yet extremely few will ever make that much regardless of how much they try. Again, I don't think ethnicity has anything to do with it.
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UTUSN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-20-07 10:20 PM
Response to Reply #35
51. Some of the flamers disputed that the bank employee would try to run them off
Edited on Thu Dec-20-07 11:18 PM by UTUSN
The guy's context for her running them off referred specifically to their being Hispanics.

The flamers also made snide remarks to my having referred to "the Border Patrol," since Missouri is "not on the Border." His words were, "la migra" which is slang for "the Border Patrol." I meant to check on the BP's jurisdiction, since I'm pretty sure the BP maintains presence at airports? Again, the readers/posters of that thread ignored that I was relaying what this person told me. He referred to "the Border Patrol", yes, in Missouri.

As for their being "irritated by how much money the guy is making," they used the word "bullshit" as I related in THIS post (above), meaning they were calling me a liar. They cited the $15-25 range of what they KNEW was what welders are paid.

Ethnicity, or rather, prejudice against Hispanics, legal or undocumented, was what my thread was about and what the posters were flaming against.

All of these points have been stated and re-stated in my previous post in this thread and in my other thread. Blunting and deflecting and skipping over the points as stated will only lead to my re-stating them, up to a limit.




*********Btw: The dude works OVERTIME and gets PAID OVERTIME, too!1 (That's for those who think he's paid too much.)
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flashl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-20-07 10:34 AM
Response to Original message
20. K&R n/t
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conspirator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-20-07 10:39 AM
Response to Original message
22. We should fight illegal immigration, not the illegal immigrants once they are in
It's all the governments fault.
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Didereaux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-20-07 10:47 AM
Response to Original message
23. The economy will both furnish the reason for them to go home, and the cause to pursuade them...
Edited on Thu Dec-20-07 10:47 AM by Didereaux
With home construction now less than 50% what it was a year ago, there already is a stream of illegal immigrants heading back south. they are used to the $10-$18hr wages which allowed them to sustain themselves both here and to send substantial amounts home. Busboys, dal labor and such cannot meet those needs, so the skilled laborers are going back so as not to waste their savings maintaining a place here and hoping for more work. However those who have chosen to stay,of which many have brought their families here or created one here, are now starting to strain welfare budgets and charity groups. This will only worsen as the economy continues to shrink in '09.

What is to be looked at as most worriesome is that these lingering illegals are going to be hit by low-end citizens who are pinched further by either lost jobs, and or food, fuel, clothing inflation. It is a lead pipe certainty that you will see a very marked rise in anti-illegals movements, it will NOT be pretty.

Who to blame? What can or could be done? Blame the kneejerks who instead of helping the illegals either gain legal status(to much boring work, no glory etc) or working to stem the flow of even more into this country, work only to get celebrity for themselves.

The answer is to fight for funding to help these illegal immigrants to get back home. Pass a budget to PAY their way back AND give them say $1000 or so to readjust. It would cost the taxpayer FAR less than the emergency medical care, schooling, welfare etc. The USA is in such financial straights, for reasons we all know, that it is nigh well impossible to officially enroll 10-12 million people onto the poverty rolls in one fell swoop...that is fact, and no amount of charitable notions can change the reality.

I throw this out not as THE solution, but as a suggestion in hopes to generate a discussion that might lead(however futile its possible implementation)to a possible working solution to this problem, before the atrocities begin in earnest.
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pingzing58 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-20-07 12:12 PM
Response to Original message
24. Sounds like some support sending U.S. citizens packing!!!
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tuckessee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-20-07 12:36 PM
Response to Original message
25. Is this about immigrants or illegal aliens? n/t
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UTUSN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-20-07 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. spills over from undocumented to LEGAL citizens & residents
Cause you can't always tell by just looking.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-20-07 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. I wasn't going to respond. So thanks, good answer.
You can't always tell by looking, and it would not matter to them anyway.

I think they planned the use of the words "illegal" in place of "undocumented"....and "aliens" in place of "immigrants".

Dean recently teamed up with a pastor and others who are asking them to stop the ugly rhetoric.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1682
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Zywiec Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-20-07 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #27
37. If you're 15 and caught driving without a license, are you not an illegal driver
or are you just an undocumented motor vehicle operator?

Just because a term sounds harsh to some, doesn't make it's definition inaccurate.
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Ganja Ninja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-20-07 01:17 PM
Response to Original message
28. The whole immigration issue legal or illegal just turns my stomach.
Edited on Thu Dec-20-07 01:19 PM by Sentinel Chicken
Why was this not a problem back in 2000?
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-20-07 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. They were too busy scapegoating others then.
Took a while to get around to immigrants.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-20-07 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #28
34. It's probably been a problem since the 1930s - the difference is there are a lot more people now
On both sides of the border.
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Ganja Ninja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-20-07 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #34
40. I think is all just a distraction.
Scapegoating illegals that work for the most menial wages in the crappiest jobs to keep people from putting the blame where it really belongs for the lack of quality, decent paying jobs, America's politicians and their corporate benefactors.

Since when did we elect politicians and task them with bringing prosperity to the world. Free trade has turned out to be exactly what the unions said it would be back in Reagan's day. It's a tool to undermine the blue collar workers of America.

Frankly I don't care about the illegals. More people only means a larger economy. They produce & consume goods and services the same as any legal citizen. Other than the low wages they're payed they should make no difference to the over all rate of employment. But when you ship a job overseas you put the person who works that job out of work And you put everybody that he supported with his purchasing power out of work.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-20-07 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. There's another thread in which I have brought up some serious environmental and other issues
Edited on Thu Dec-20-07 02:55 PM by slackmaster
It's very hard to discuss this frankly without being accused of being racist and/or insensitive, but I'll give it another shot:

Yes, it is largely a distraction but the increasing number of people coming over is making some existing problems worse over time.

The back country trails of southern San Diego County are used by probably hundreds of people every day to walk from unauthorized border crossing points to places where they are picked up for transportation to areas where there is work for them.

The problem is that the people are not prepared for a hike, and there are more people than the largely undeveloped trails can support without damage. They carry bulky canned, bottled, and packaged foods bought at supermarkets, and leave behind large amounts of trash as well as bodily waste.

Besides the obvious blight of litter and trampled vegetation, many of the areas where they travel are in watersheds of urban and suburban water supply reservoirs, and also popular fishing spots. These are places where it is illegal for people to leave urine and feces, but the migrants are not prepared to pack out their waste. Needless to say, there are no port-a-potties out there for them.

Their impact on the economy is mostly a wash, but there are specific areas like hospital emergency services where they end up being non-paying customers.

The lack of a process to vet people as they cross also results in the presence among them of an elevated proportion of people with criminal records; our jails are being flooded with the dishonest, criminal ones who accompany the honest migrant workers.

In the warmest and coolest parts of the year, which are relatively brief, more and more of these migrant workers are dying from exposure and hypothermia.

And then there are the environmental and health problems caused by the cardboard huts and shantytowns where many of the migrants live, but that is another large subject.

These problems are all going to keep getting worse until a comprehensive solution is worked out. One that allows people to come in and do jobs that need to be done, allows them to come in the open in a dignified and orderly manner, and filters out the bad apples.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-20-07 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. I think since it has been such a hot button issue....it won't get worked out.
Democrats are afraid to try to apply common sense about it. Most of the problems could be solved by just enforcing existing rules and making it very unpleasant for employers who hire those without documents.

I was almost afraid to write about it. That is the danger with hot button stuff. People are fearful.

Going back years in someone's life to find anything, even a misdemeanor charge and then offering the jail or deportation though they were "legal"...that is not common sense. That is scapegoating.
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Orwellian_Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-20-07 01:20 PM
Response to Original message
30. K&R n/t
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pingzing58 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-20-07 05:11 PM
Response to Original message
48. Tom Tancreado who built his career on inciting hatred towards illegal immigrants has no support and
quits. No matter how much he blamed illegal aliens for our problems he couldn't convince enough DUers to support his candidacy. No matter how much Dobbsian fear mongering he spewed from his foul mouth declaring an imminent terrorist attack on us because we won't spend billions on border fences instead of on health care and other much needed social programs he called it quits. Liberals and Progressives have had enough of the divisive hate mongering of the Republican Party. And so have many enlightened people who voted Republican in the past. I hope that all who have commented on this thread would be so enlightened.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 12:35 AM
Response to Reply #48
52. Good observations.
I am amazed at the responses here to a post that is not negative/

Thanks for posting that.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 01:35 AM
Response to Original message
53. Amazing spin....TIME declares victory for Tancredo on immigration.
Just as he drops out of the race. Unbelievable. I don't think they are being sarcastic either.

Tancredo's Single Issue Victory

Immigration was thrown into the spotlight last year when President George W. Bush moved to create a path to citizenship for the estimated 12 million illegal aliens living in the U.S. while shoring up border security and overhauling the naturalization and visa processes. House Republicans, with Tancredo leading the charge, blocked the plan. They accused Bush of seeking to grant sweeping amnesty. McCain, with a handful of Senate Republicans, backed the president's plan.

In debates, forums and in his own campaigning, Tancredo kept pressure on the issue, railing against Republicans and Democrats alike for not doing enough to secure U.S. borders, even after Congress passed legislation to build a 700-mile border fence that some experts say could cost as much as $50 billion. (So far, less than $5 billion has actually been appropriated for the project).


If he was so successful, why he is dropping out?

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