My encounter today with a soldier's wife...

[Blue_In_AK]

Today I went to my credit union to conduct a little business, wearing my coat with the "U.S. Out of Iraq" button that I picked up in DC last month. My teller says enthusiastically, all smiles, "Oh, I LOVE your button." I thanked her for noticing, and then she told me that her husband is now in Iraq, on his THIRD tour.

It is a lie that the soldiers and their families "believe in the mission." They just want to be home.

[sanskritwarrior]

1. While I agree there is a sizeable

minority in the military that hates the war and the endless deployments, I can tell you there is an equally sized or slightly smaller or even slightly larger group that is looking forward to going back. Most of the "let's go back" crowd are younger single enlisted guys, officers of the Captain-Colonel range and the Warrant's......I can also tell you that in my experience the white soldiers (I'm half white) are anxious, even eager to go back. Usually soldiers that are hispanic or black are less likely to want to go back. Not looking to stir up racial stuff, but it's just my .02 cents from what I see everyday.

[sanskritwarrior]

2. Basically

The Army is split into three groups.....

Group A which is 30-35% don't want to go back and resent the war and our leadership

Group B which is about 28-37% are chomping at the bit to go back for various reasons

Group C which is everyone else is sitting on the fence to see which group of soldiers views are validated by actions from Congress, the President, etc........

[Tsiyu]

3. Can you give a link to support these statistics?

thanks

[sanskritwarrior]

5. No more than the OP can.......

Just my personal observations, just like hers.....

[Tsiyu]

7. Didn't think so

It's okay. No need to get defensive buddy, nor to bring the OP into this.

The OP did not offer statistics, just an observation. No percentages or hard numbers in the OP.

Your post, on the other hand, made it seem as if you had polled the entire military and you even gave us groupings and percentages. I was curious and thought you might lead me to a study of some sort.

No problem, really. I hoped you were doing more than making up statistics, but it's cool.

[sanskritwarrior]

8. What the hell?

I offered my personal opinion, even said it is only my .02 cents.

It is my opinion of the way the army breaks down. You are being quite hostile, what the hell?

[Tsiyu]

10. On the contrary

I have no reason to be hostile.

Your post #2 carried no such disclaimer. But did include hard numbers. I wanted to see the study from which you pulled those numbers.

I was taken aback by your references to the OP when I merely asked for a link, however. That seemed a bit hostile or perhaps defensive - diverting attention to someone else when YOU were asked the question.

You've answered my question and I hope you have a wonderful evening.

[cap]

24. hmmmmmmm

[Caretha]

12. Which group do you fall into?

A?
B?
or
C?

[sanskritwarrior]

17. I fall into my own group

I have my personal feelings but they are irrelevant in regards to my oath. I don't look forward to going to Iraq ever, but until Congress rescinds the IWR, it is my job. You can lecture me on legality all day long, but Congress controls the future of this war. Congress has not reeled in an "overstretched president" therefore until they do I and others have a job to do no matter how we personally feel. This is not "just following orders" this is protecting a precedent of 220+ years which states that the US military will never get involved in political decisions. We don't have to like our leaders but we have to obey them until another branch of government rules them invalid. That is the essence of checks and balances.......And that is the number one belief within the military, we are the executers of American policy, not the planners of. If there is to be a change, it has to come from the people and the Congress, not us. Once we cross that line it becomes easier and easier for the military to "make the country safer, better, more American"........you name it. And that is somewhere I never want to go.

[karlrschneider]

15. I absolutely believe you (and don't like the shit some give you)

but have to wonder, specifically regarding group B...as far as you know and might be willing to share, what would some of those 'various reasons' be? I can hypothesize a few but would like to hear it from the horse's mouth, as it were. :-)

[sanskritwarrior]

18. The young guys

want glory (they don't know reality), the officers want medals and awards, some people are just psychotic, many of the war supporters really believe they are fighting terra and they believe it is better to fight them there than here. Irregardless (my favorite non word :) ) of their intelligence level, many of them are good people just not savvy on the pragmatism that makes the world go around.

I can elaborate more if you have specific questions......

[karlrschneider]

21. Just now found your post...no, you've answered quite nicely

and said just about what I surmised.
KS

[Lisa]

22. there was a piece in the New Yorker a couple of years ago which mentioned the "B" group

I don't recall any specific stats or demographic data, but the journalist did speak to a number of young officers who saw this as their "big chance" to make a name for themselves, since they felt another war likely wouldn't come along until after they were either out of service, or shunted aside by the next up-and-coming cohort. Unfortunately I don't remember the writer's name, but I can try to dig it up if anyone's interested. Just anecdotally, one of my students has a husband who was involved in Canada's Afghanistan mission, and according to him there were a couple of people just a bit younger than he was, who had that mindset ... the "old guys" in their outfit, late 20s and early 30s, were trying to get them to mellow out and separate their own ambitions from what might be better for everyone (including the local people).

To paraphrase the quote Al Gore used in his movie, it's pretty hard to get someone to see there's a problem, if s/he has a lot of hope pinned on success, and is absolutely convinced that the job is going well and there are tremendous benefits just ahead.

p.s. right after the friendly fire incident, the Canadian media reported that there was quite a bit of competition in Air National Guard units, for pilots to be selected for long-range bombing missions to Afghanistan. I haven't got US accounts to verify this, but the reports suggested that the missions were being presented as "rewards" so that pilots would be able to say that they'd been in combat. I don't know whether this was for employment purposes (I can't imagine why an airline or other corporation would see that as trumping everything else on a resume, but what do I know?), or so they could tell their families and co-workers in Cleveland or wherever that they had actually seen action. Whatever the case, it didn't go as planned for the two pilots who were disciplined after killing several Canadians on the ground, due to a combination of their own eagerness and a cock-up back at control. And I imagine that there will be some regretful, defensive (or worse) junior officers out there whose "big chance" led to the wrong kind of mention in dispatches -- and the press -- due to US or Iraqi casualties.

[KharmaTrain]

23. "B" Sums Up Someone I Recently Encountered

This guy's been on two tours to Iraq (both in the Green Zone)...he's a mechanic but is as rah-rah about the invasion now as he was on his first tour. He fits into the single white male...around 30 years of age and with nothing else going on here. He and I agree to disagree on Iraq, but his chirping of GOOP talking points are anywhere near as strident as they once were.

I've noticed several changes in him. He's become very introverted...he used be the party animal, but now rarely goes out. Also, if he is critical of the military, it is always directed at Clinton. Overall, I can see a very lonely person. He always cites how his real friends are still in Baghdad and he'd rather be there than here.

[uppityperson]

13. Well, that covers all the bases.

Equally sized or slightly smaller or even slightly larger group.

What group are you in?

[tblue]

4. Bless that woman and you for wearing your button

A little while ago, I met a young vet who had just returned from Iraq. I asked him what he thought about R*mmy retiring, and he said he was glad and most of his fellow soldiers were glad, because R*mmy had effed up so badly and had dissed them: "You go to war with the army you've got, not the army you want."

[Qanisqineq]

6. my husband is in the army

and we live in Korea where a number of soldiers are "hiding out" from Iraq. My husband included. He's already been there once. In his experience, the soldiers that WANT to go to Iraq and support the war are the young ones that have only been in a couple years and they want to go because they WANT A COMBAT PATCH. Yeah, that's what they say. Dumb. My husband has convinced quite a few that no, they don't want to experience it just to put a fucking patch on their arm. He's also been chewed out by some of his superiors for talking soldiers out of wanting to go. Ha! They are the same ones that have been stationed in Korea for 10+ years and have never seen combat.

You are right, it is a lie that so many soldiers "believe in the mission" as you say.

[sanskritwarrior]

9. LOL

your husbands view of the young soldiers is exactly what I see everyday.......

hey Buddy holly what about this?

[caligirl]

11. Without applying any numerical values it would be a safe bet

that some see themselves as the pawns used by the WH and gave up on career building assignments. They are probably the ones who do outside reading and don't buy the company line they are fed daily by their co's and xo's.A higher IQ would most likely be involved with this type. I recall a few 'true believers' we commonly referred to as blockheads or even jarheads. if the MC had wanted us to have a brain, or a wife, or a kid,they would have issued one.

[Solly Mack]

16. I have offered to buy them patches if that's what it would take

Tol'em I'd be happy to go off to clothing sales with them and buy them all the patches they wanted...

this desire for a combat patch I just don't get

Course, my eegit loves him some coins...but he can get those without going back to Iraq

[walldude]

14. Wanting their families home is what the righties call

"hurting the troops" :eyes:

[GreenZoneLT]

19. It's definitely becoming mainstream in the Army to doubt

Couple recent experiences: In the latrine at the transient base in Kuwait, some kid had written "Impeach Bush." The only counter graffiti was a "Hell, yeah!" Same stall, somebody had written "KBR = Keep Bush Rich," also to no negative comment.

Then, at the transient barracks at Camp Stryker, waiting for the Rhino to the Green Zone, some kid was loudly criticizing any war supporter who opened their mouth (we were watching some Fox News panel). Self-described Republican, said he was going to vote for a Democrat in '08. Nobody argued with him.

You wouldn't have seen either of those things a couple years ago, I don't think. Soldiers always bitch, but war supporters seem embarrassed to admit it now.

[salin]

20. I read the most astonishing Jim Robinson post the other day

he was trying to shut the Guilliani supporters on his Freep site. He had a bullet point list - I don't recall all of them - that he said should be the GOP platform top on the list were:

Win the war in Iraq
Fight the needed fights in Syria and Iran (my words - but he singled those out and suggested new military campaigns)
Strengthen the military

and down the kist:
Cut taxes
Shrink Govt

And the first page of responses (all I could bear to read) praised his list.

All I could think was... wth? Doesn't compute - stretch the military even more thinly - but strengthen it? While cutting taxes? And shrinking Govt? And what a frickin' disgrace to those serving - keep fighting this war, fight more wars - but we are going to keep cutting revenues and programs to support (from equipment to healthcare for those wounded) those doing the fighting?

Then I thought to myself.... these folks really do want a dem president in 2008. Because except for the ever shrinking group of true believers - this speak no longer makes sense.

For the very first time in my lifetime I am looking at the primary season with very different eyes. No, I take that back, in my first two (when i was young and less jaded) elections I still viewed it this way: look to who would be the best president and don't bother factoring in electability. I am pretty confident - esp with how bushco (followed by loud belly-aching, enabling GOP congressfolks) jumped out bellicosely after the midterm elections - that the 'electability' thing will be handled quite well per the Bush and the GOP making any repub candidate doomed to a big defeat.