"a young buck" : in reference to Obama

[donsu]

a southern accented male caller on Wash. Journal this morning said a black wouldn't have a chance unless they were older and experienced not like "that young buck Obama"


ain't racism grand.

[demnan]

1. That's what I'm afraid of

This country is so racist, I fear we haven't seen the half of it yet. If Obama wins the nomination, we will.

[gollygee]

2. Lovely use of language from the slave-trading industry

Straight off the auction block. Did he say "strapping" too?

[XemaSab]

75. Hey, I bet his wife can cook, and the kids are old enough to work in the house.

Of course, they're all sold seperately.

Yeah, that's some auction block language there. Depressing shit.

If anything, it makes me more resolved to vote for Obama. :)

[MNDemNY]

3. Musta been a hillbot plant!

Honestly, what is the point of posting that bit of tripe?

[T Wolf]

4. As demnan says, it is a little taste of GOP-to-come strategy. Not to say it is

a reason not to nominate Obama - just to remind everyone what will come from the pukes.

[MNDemNY]

5. And much-much more.

[donsu]

6. you can fight back better when you know what the enemy is saying

nt

[MNDemNY]

7. true.

[LeftCoast]

29. Wow. Nice way to smear a candidate as a racist.

Lovely. Nothing like a day at DU to make me proud I'm a Democrat.

[EFerrari]

33. That's disingenuous. The campaign already did that to itself. n/t

[LeftCoast]

35. The Clinton Campaign called Obama a Young Buck?

I'd like to see evidence of that.

[EFerrari]

36. No, the accusation was that the campaign was being smeared.

The truth is, they got their hands dirty in the first place, and that mistake resulted in a resignation.

I am not pro Obama or anti Clinton. I won't vote for either of them. But in the interest of hanging on to reality, that's what happened.

[LeftCoast]

39. You think it's ok to blame Clinton for a comment she clearly had nothing to do with?

Wow. Nice morals.

[EFerrari]

40. Thank you. Yes, I generally hold people accountable for their

subordinates.

[Evergreen Emerald]

43. You are accusing Clinton of racism? What the hell?

I am getting so tired of DU. I thought it was a place to find progressive thought. But this last couple of months has shown me that DU is no more progressive than freeperville.

To accuse Clinton of racism is outrageous. Just when I think Obama's supporters can stoop no lower.

[EFerrari]

46. Read something. I am not an Obama supporter. Link:

http://m.cnn.com/cnn/ne/politics/detail/49889

[Evergreen Emerald]

49. whoever you are supporting:

your accusation that Clinton is being rascist is the second worse thing I have seen on DU.

The first was someone who depicted Clinton as Hitler in a photoshopped picture--on "progressive" DU!

Lies / distortions /murderous slander is not acceptable, no matter who you are backing.

[EFerrari]

50. You need to reread my posts. And you need to become more aware

of how racism and sexism are being used in this contest.

If I accuse the Clinton campaign of something it has actually done, that's not an accusation, is it? That's a description.

Racism isn't a progressive value.

/grammar

[Evergreen Emerald]

53. You tout "facts"

but only bring forth attacks.

The facts are: that Obama himself admitted to doing COCAINE. He then used it in several speeches. We don't know the extent, very vague. We only know that he said, teenage, but a campaign chair said he quit "around 20."

So, when Obama talks and talks about Clinton's unelectablity because of her past, it is fair to suggest that Obama also has things that could be exploited in his past, for example HIS COCAINE USE.

You can twist that into racism if you want to. But, to make Clinton racist is to distort so thoroughly that the truth is gone.

Lying / distorting--not progressive values.

[EFerrari]

55. See my post above. And, now you owe an apology

for calling me a liar.

[Evergreen Emerald]

56. I have read your posts

and suggesting that you have facts that prove Clinton is a racist--is a lie.

[EFerrari]

61. You haven't then because I didn't write that. I said she was responsible

for her subordinates -- unless, like Bush, she isn't. You can't have it both ways.

[LittleClarkie]

98. Interesting quantu,m leap there

Don't stretch too much farther though. You'll pull something.

[MNDemNY]

107. .

:sarcasm:

[sandnsea]

8. That term is not strictly racial

I've heard it directed at young white men all the time. Not usually 40 year olds, but it isn't just a racial term.

[annabanana]

18. (stolen from the slave trade. . . yes... racial). . . . . . .n/t

[msongs]

20. link? proof? nt

[EFerrari]

22. Here's a ref.

Straight Lynching: A Modern Interpretation of The Willie Lynch Doctrine
Submitted by Nero on Thu, 2006-07-27 10:35.

I know you have heard the term "lynching" before, your favorite rap artists' uses the term or you might even like the rap group "Lynch Mob". But, very few of you know who Willie Lynch is. Willie Lynch was mysterious 18th century business man considered to be an expert slave handler. The term "Lynching" originally referred to the hanging of a black man and was named after Willie Lynch who acted as a consultant to the wealthy plantation owners who were also the politicians of the time in the United States. Willie Lynch developed the process of breaking a slave, a technique for taming and subduing a man to behave like a slave similar to the process of taming a wild horse. A male animal such as a horse of he-goat is called a buck because they are wild and hard to control. Thus, young male slaves that was hard to control would also be called young bucks, there is also a G-unit Rapper name "Young Buck". The technique for breaking or subduing a young buck became known as the art of slave making .The process was designed to enslave the mind of the black man making him easier to control physically and having the black woman raise her children to eat out of the slave masters hands, the same as a pony. If the process was done correctly it would create an endless supply of easy to control slaves who would take whatever identity their master gave them.

http://mindwarz.com/media/modernwillielynch

[Leopolds Ghost]

37. Is this the guy who Lynchburg, VA is named after?

Just wonderin'.

[EFerrari]

I don't know. I also didn't know it was a guy's name.

[datasuspect]

23. you really require an internet link to corroborate this relic from the days of slavery?

your request betrays an ignorance of american history.

[EFerrari]

25. People misuse language all the time and unknowingly

because of the way we acquire language, perhaps. The poster cared enough to ask which is already more than most people do. :)

[zanne]

9. Oh come on. The Wash. Journal is known for kooks like that.

There are some regulars, too. Like the guy who wants to dismantle the federal government altogether to the woman who calls about absolutely anything and always cries. I especially like the guys who start with "Let me tell you what's wrong"........ They always know how to fix everything. You really can't take these people seriously.

[Cha]

42. I'm askin' myself..why are they the

ones who get through when I tried for years and couldn't get anything but a busy signal?

[TwilightGardener]

10. I've used that phrase myself--didn't realize it was racist in origin--

thought it was a deer reference, sort of like saying "young pup".

[gollygee]

11. It is a reference to animals, but it isn't affectionate

It was used during the slave industry in auctions. When people behave inhumanly toward other people, they often use language to dehumanize them, such as using animal terms like "buck".

[TwilightGardener]

13. Unless I'm using it, when it certainly wasn't intended to dehumanize anyone.

I've called my own boys "young bucks".

[Karenina]

28. Please allow me, respectfully, to connect a few dots

When you refer to your white sons as "young bucks" you do so knowing that they're your kids and the society-at-large does NOT view them as sub-human. To refer to a segment of the population who have been historically considered "wild savages of lesser intelligence" with a word used to describe non-human mammals, no matter what their accomplishments is crude. Do you see the difference?

[EFerrari]

41. I wonder how many of us learned this expression from Warner Bros.

cartoons and had no clue that where it really came from. I bet there are a lot of expressions that fall into this category.

[Karenina]

68. No doubt!

I only get perturbed when people do the "LALALA, I CAN'T HEAR YOU" thing when any "other" attempts to explain another take from EXPERIENCE of the accompanying non-verbal expression.

[EFerrari]

69. Exactly. What is that about?

It's one thing to repeat something unknowingly as a child does.

It's another to refuse to know.

[Karenina]

74. 3 words...

Denial. Denial. Denial.

It protects the person trying to maintain their comfortable distance while invalidating the "other" and her/his sensibilities. Kinda like that word "articulate." Remember THOSE threads? :rofl:

[EFerrari]

76. Denial in service of what?

The Republics have framed the discussion of "race" such that you are pariah for bringing it up.

Cool. No one is allowed to question how they power their party. Mission accomplished. :shrug:

[Karenina]

80. Here ya go!

In her book, "THE LANGUAGE WAR" which I highly recommend, Robin Tolmach Lakoff uses the term "exnomination."

"Exnominated groups... become "normalized": they become apolitical and nonideological. They just are. Their rules become the rules... experienced as the evident laws of natural order.

(It) is the means by which whiteness avoids being named and thus keeps itself out of the field of interrogation and therefore off the agenda for change." (pg. 54)

[EFerrari]

81. Robin used to lecture to my Linguistics class once a week.

But, I never heard that one. Thank you!

:)

[Karenina]

85. You're welcome!

:pals:

[undeterred]

12. I think of that as an expression referring to a younger man

without any negative connotation at all and without any racial connotation at all. Since most of the Presidential candidates are in the 55+ category, Obama is young compared to them.

[sailor65]

14. "Young Buck"

is not a damn racist term.

It was a complimentary term (And still is, for those with more than two firing brain cells) until the race-baiters and professional victims got their hands on it.

[annabanana]

19. If you look back into the primary documents of the slave trade...

(the contracts, the bills of sale)...
...you will see young men referred to as "bucks".. just like the livestock they were considered to be. It is most certainly a racist term.

(a fish is the last to discover water)

[sailor65]

21. If you look farther back than American Slavery

although it doesn't suit your purpose, you'll find the term is a compliment to youth, vitality, and strength. You don't get the privilege of stopping your research at the point it "Fits" your complaint.

And since you're obviously in the mood to bait,
(Only a Demon sees a Demon behind every door)

[EFerrari]

24. Do you have an OED sitting around? I no longer do.

But the phrase wasn't idiomatic in English in the 16th and 17th in reference to young white men, although young white people of both sexes are described in terms of animals for a number of reasons in the same way we refer to young men as "pups". I hope that's going back far enough for you.

It's funny that in trying to find a primary reference on line, mostly what I found were unknowing, racist uses of this term, including quotations from the rapper Young Buck and the flap over whether he was a racist. Only on the net. Here's something more recent -- 10/07

Racial epithet scrawled in dorm
Student cartoon stirs tension at UK

By Charlie White
[e-mail]
The Courier-Journal

LEXINGTON, Ky. -- University of Kentucky police are investigating a threatening racial epithet scrawled on the door of a black student's dorm room.

The incident, which police are considering a hate crime, occurred Monday amid the controversy that arose after the student newspaper published a cartoon with slavery imagery.

http://66.218.69.11/search/cache?ei=UTF-8&p=young+buck+slavery&y=Search&fr=yfp-t-501&u=www.courier-journal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article%3FAID%3D/20071010/NEWS01/710100928/1008/NEWS01&w=young+buck+slavery&d=bRyihbXiPym3&icp=1&.intl=us

[EFerrari]

26. Have you studied those, anna? I listened to a presentation

about slave ships last weekend or so. And it was amazing.

Would the primary docs be bills of sale? Bills of lading? (Is that the right word?)

[LanternWaste]

63. What a gift...

My, my, my... what a gift it must be to have such absolute certainty as to what is, and is not a racist term, and who would manipulate it for their own gain.

I know many educated and worldly individuals who would envy your gift-- alas, they are (as am I) always prepared to look beyond the scope the mere here and now, which causes (I quite confess) a somewhat more... hesitant view of the certainty of absolute knowledge.

I'll ask these esteemed individuals why they have less than two firing brain cells-- after all, if you posted that it's not a racist term, who are we but to comply.

:eyes:

[NOLALady]

99. JFK was a young president.

He was never referred to as a young buck as far as I know. In fact, I have not heard of any other young politician referred to as such. In this instance, I would consider this racist and not a compliment.
And I realize there's a possibility that it was meant as a compliment. Scary.

[Gman]

15. In general, that means a young man in the South

that is aggressive and outgoing. Yes, there is some slavery-related connotations, but the old-timers (and even myself at times) have often referred to young men as young bucks. Usually it means a young man that is outgoing and aggressive as is a young male deer during the rut.

[donsu]

16. you can sugar and cream 'young buck' all you want, it is still a racist term

I was born in D.C., spent half my life in the area and 'young buck' did not refer to white males.

maybe down south and the midwest south call white males that. but I'd wager it was said with a smirk.

[Enrique]

17. probably best not to call black or native american men young bucks

yes, the term can be used in a non-racist way, but it can also be used in a racist way, and caution is in order. Think: the person being called the young buck may have a different view of the term, and that's what counts, right?

[goodgd_yall]

60. ya think?

[TheWraith]

27. Are you sure?

Some people, particularly older ones, use the phrase "young buck" to refer to any youthful or energetic male, different from the racist meaning. What was the rest of the person's phrasing like? It is, at the very least a really bad choice of words.

[EFerrari]

30. It's likely akin to the use of "lynching". I'm sure there are people

who use that word without really knowing the freight it carries or, how it entered the idiom.

[aikoaiko]

38. Charles Lynch and the American Revolution?

Lynch, Charles

Lynch, Charles, 1736–96, American Revolutionary soldier, b. near the site of Lynchburg, Va. A member (1767–76) of the Virginia house of burgesses, he took a prominent part in the preparations for war. When a Tory conspiracy was discovered (1780) in Bedford co., where he had been a justice of the peace from 1774, Lynch, a zealous patriot, presided over an extralegal court that meted out summary punishment to the Loyalists. From this action is said to come the origin of the term “lynch law.” Lynch clearly exceeded his authority, but he was later exonerated by the state legislature. He led a volunteer regiment at the battle of Guilford Courthouse in 1781.

[tabasco]

95. That's true. Old guys used to call me a young buck.

I'm white and now I'm an old man.

[LibDemAlways]

31. What that one caller said will pale in comparison to what

the GOP will come up with should Obama be the nominee.

[aikoaiko]

32. meh, don't be so niggardly with the usage/meaning of "Young Buck"

ok, that was a stretch to use niggardly there.

"Young Buck" is not necessarily racist, but it certainly could be used that way as a reference to when young buck black males fetched a nice price at the auction block.

1 result for: young buck

noun
a teenager or a young adult male

WordNet® 3.0, © 2006 by Princeton University.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/young%20buck

http://tinyurl.com/yo2dvm

[LWolf]

34. He's not young, he's not a "buck,"

and that is a despicable remark.

It's also not exactly unheard of, unfortunately.

Obama loses my vote on issues, not on race, and while I won't be voting for him, I also will stand with all principled people to oppose racism in any form, at any time.

[Catherine Vincent]

44. You've got to be kidding me?

Unbelievable.

[book_worm]

45. interesting, my grandfather used to call me a "young buck" and I'm white! and...

Dicken's uses the expression in "A Christmas Carol" in which one of the characters calls another a "young buck" and he's referring to a white person. I don't know if we can automaticaly assume that this caller meant it to be a racist comment.

[EFerrari]

47. Do you have the passage from Dickens? I'd like to see it

to see how he's using it.

[LanternWaste]

52. Just "buck", not "young buck"... relevant passage

Just "buck", not "young buck"...


"An intelligent boy!" said Scrooge. "A remarkable boy! Do you know whether they've sold the prize Turkey that was hanging up there?—Not the little prize Turkey: the big one?"

"What! the one as big as me?" returned the boy.

"What a delightful boy!" said Scrooge. "It's a pleasure to talk to him. Yes, my buck!"

"It's hanging there now," replied the boy.

************************************************************************************

It would appear that Dickens used it as a term of endearment, but that's hardly germane to the usage in there here and now.

But to be honest, I've never heard "young buck" used to signify one race or another. I too was referred to as 'young buck' by my grandfather and his brothers when I was a kid.

But then again, I'm hardly an expert on racial epithets...

[EFerrari]

59. Thank you. My field is 16th, 17th C. English so, Dickens is outside

of my area.

I'm remembering, after thinking about this thread, that when I first heard that expression, I was innocent of its use to describe young black slaves. Add to that, people compare teens to young animals all the time because of their raging hormones and their energy. But, at some point, I became aware there was more to this expression than that.

In the periods I've studied, young males were compared to bucks usually in tandem to a similar expression about a young female because the focus was their mating. Hart and doe and so on. That's all over English poetry.

A casual search on the net turns up the American "racial" connotation. It took me about 2 minutes.

[AtomicKitten]

48. and he's clean too

[Name removed]

51. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[EFerrari]

54. Wrong. Have you read this thread? n/t

[Didereaux]

62. Have you ever read ANYTHING?

[EFerrari]

65. Yes. I read for a living.

lol

[Didereaux]

58. It dates from the earliest colonial days and useage was reference to young male INDIANS! like SQUAW

it had NO fucking specific meaning applied to africans. Old English and christians in general often referred to the sex of NON christians in references that were normally applied to animals. There was a 'logical' reasoning, if the person was an animal then biblical dictates did not apply to how you treated them. Not unlike the believer -gentile - infidel connotations today in popular useage.

You know even after all these decades I am astounded at the level of ignorance that is displayed by American adults! Yeppers, our edumacation is the bestus there is, an our teachers be da brightest and bestus as well. gag hack cough

[EFerrari]

64. The African slave trade pre-dates the discovery of the "new world".

[Karenina]

66. Did you READ what you just wrote???

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

[EFerrari]

67. I think I have to go out and shoot myself now.

lol

Edit: Though, in fairness to the poster, native Americans were referred to in the same terms -- mediated by the colonists seeing them all as the same Irish "other" they had in their frame of reference.

But, the reference to young black male slaves comes first linguistically.

[Didereaux]

86. although you say....

it is historically the oldest useage(yet to be proven), you do NOT deny its useage was as I had stated, based on a religious conotation to escape inconvenient passages in various religious tomes. NOW do you agree that words change meanings with time? Say, like the word 'gay'? 100 years ago a gay person was a happy and or carefree one, not a homoisexual. Yet today that is its sole accepted useage. If you accept that reality, then you MUST accept also that the term 'young buck' has lost its animalistic connotations and is rather widely used in rual areas all over the North American continent to simply mean any young spirited male. I have heard it used from British Columbia to Maine, to California, to Florida in exactly that way.

Lets have some consistency in our language even if only at the individual level. That is my argument, that is my point!

[Karenina]

97. "the term 'young buck' has lost its animalistic connotations..."

to WHOM? The rural white population in your acquaintance?

[Didereaux]

101. are you going to exclude a whole demographic? How very Democratic of you.

[Karenina]

102. Au contraire!

How exnominative of YOU!!! ;-)

[Didereaux]

103. you mean 'ex-nominative'? A poor attempt at erudition...try again nahhh!

[Karenina]

104. See post #80

:eyes::rofl::eyes:

[Didereaux]

105. "ex-nominative" has to do with grammatical useage and meaning, whereas exnominated is NOT they are

not related in any manner whatsoever. Erudition 0 - grammatical, useage 0 Would you care to add a third area?

never mind. Why don't we simply end this before they lock the thread entirely?

[Karenina]

106. I and others reading this thread

are well aware of that. BTW it's "usage." :rofl:

[superduperfarleft]

70. So you admit that the history of the word is in referring to people as subhuman

in an attempt to brutalize them.

And you call people "oversensitive jackasses" for being upset that Obama was referred to in this manner (considering the treatment of african-americans throughout history)? Just brilliant. :eyes:

[Didereaux]

83. gay used to mean 'happy' do you feel then that only the ORIGINAL useage is valid?

[superduperfarleft]

90. Gay, in its current or prior form, isn't used as a slur against GLBT people

So I'm not seeing your point.

[Didereaux]

94. oh I have to disagree, call somebody 'gay' who isn't and watch the reaction.

Their are a lot of us who do NOT see it as disparaging, merely an accepted reference term, albeit I feel it unnecessary to determine a perons sexual orientation if I or they are not planning on striking up such a relationship. Whether a word was disparaging and now is not, is no different than one which may not have been and now is. My point in all this is simply to point out that a words meaning must be determined both in the context of what is said, and in the context of its time. that is all.

That such logic seems openly, evenly blatantly apparent to me and many, many many others is why I get upset with a few who insist on extreme interpretations of these things. One more example and to me the most abhorrent of all: the word nigger. I absolutely will not tolerate its use within my earshot, home or public. I know full well it is derived from the word negro and in fact a common regional corruption of its its proper pronunciation, BUT it also evolved into one of the most loathsome derogatory words in American language. Yet, I did not forbid my boy from reading 'Huckleberry Finn' or 'Tom Sawyer', because Twain never used it in its derogatory manner, only as an everyday word that in fact pointed out his tolerance and others intolerance of the african slaves and their offspring. If Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson or some sonovabitch lowlife rapper uses it today I have the same reaction aaaas I do when one of these local bubbas uses it...very vociferous response and not in proper english but good old fashioned Anglo-Saxon. Few are left wondering how I stand on the issue.

So you see, I am not the intolerant one on these boards at all. It might even be argued that I might have one of the broader 'tents' in the region.

[Catherine Vincent]

73. It must have been you that was the caller on cspan.

Sorry but "young buck" is racist when said to a man that is non-caucasian.

[EFerrari]

79. Since your post hasn't been deleted yet,

I want to add, it's not "fucking over sensitive" to call out racist apology.

It's not all right to call DUers in a conversation "jackasses".

This is your habit and it's one I don't feel compelled to put up with. Welcome to my ignore list.

[Didereaux]

89. FINALLY SUCCESS!

[superduperfarleft]

91. Wow, what an ass. n/t

Cursing at people without provocation and littering your posts with random caps doesn't make your point any more valid, it just makes you more obnoxious. :eyes:

[Enrique]

82. don't be angry

so you didn't know the racial meaning of the word, who cares? Now you know. It's good to know things you didn't know before.

[Didereaux]

88. never was purely racial, it applied to non-believers of all colors.

[Enrique]

92. sometimes it's purely racial

if the person saying it uses it to mean young black man or young native american man, then it's purely racial.

[Didereaux]

100. if the whole context of what is said is derogatory, then I agree totally.

[Karenina]

84. That you call it "generic"

and us over sensitive (sic) jackasses is quite telling.
BTW, the plural of century is centuries.

[Didereaux]

87. the plural wouldn't fit in the subject line...thank you very much

[Karenina]

93. BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

[goodgd_yall]

57. There sure is a lot of ignorance of the culture of racism

I'm surprised how many people on this board didn't know the racial overtones of the expression. It's not really a good thing at all. No wonder many DUers deny racism when it rears its ugly head.

[superduperfarleft]

71. No shit. See above. n/t

[EFerrari]

72. I don't think it's possible to separate "the culture of racism"

from "American culture".

I know that I'm tiresome on this subject, but it won't be possible to untangle our culture from its "racist" history until we're willing to listen to our metaphors and to understand them.

Why anyone feels the need to so adamantly deny the bigotry in this expression is a mystery to me. Maybe it's just too shameful / painful / frightening. Language has a way of being all of those things.

But, you'd think, especially when we're trying to mount an opposition to a political party that fuels itself on bigotry, we'd be more careful, more thoughtful, smarter than that.

[goodgd_yall]

96. I get the impression

I'm tiresome on this subject too, to some people. But it is interesting, to say the least, that with these kinds of threads, there are so many people wanting to find another meaning to offensive words. It's troubling, actually. I think what you say is at least part of it---"it's...too shameful/painful/frightening." It's the disappointment of realizing you or we are not above something that has tainted--badly--this country's culture and history.

[Melinda]

77. Straight from the GOP handbook, this is Ronald Reagan all over again....

Reagan was the master of using racially loaded terms and phrases. Read about his reference to the "young buck" using food stamps at http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/11/10/innocent-mistakes/

The term is racist, period, and is used by design, period.

[EFerrari]

78. And notice, it's introduced to call attention to youth but the

subtext and goal is to introduce "race".

Did anyone ever call JFK a "young buck"?

[Thothmes]

108. Dont necessarily see the term "young buck" as racist

Where I grew up in Washington State in the early 60s, most of the older men (our fathers or grandfathers) referred to the us as young bucks in general conversation. We sometimes used the term "old bulls" in reference to them. I now have lived in Virginia for 24 years, still hear the term, but dont recall it ever being used toward anyone that was black.