If It Were to Her Political Benefit, Do You Think Hillary and Bill Would Disclose the Donors?

[CorpGovActivist]

Poll question: If It Were to Her Political Benefit, Do You Think Hillary and Bill Would Disclose the Donors?

Do you think that Senator Clinton and former President Bill Clinton would act to disclose the donors to the Clinton Foundation, if it were deemed politically expedient to do so?

Thanks for registering your opinion.

- Dave

[Forkboy]

1. They'd do it so fast your head would spin.

[CorpGovActivist]

5. What Makes You Say That? Past Conduct? Examples?

[Forkboy]

7. My belief that they favor what's politically expedient first and foremost.

Like almost all politicians they will do something if it benefits them in some way.

I also firmly believe her vote on the IWR was totally politically motivated. I believe fully that she thought the war would be over and done with by now and that she'd be able to play the "strong on security" card in this election.

Nearly a million dead and millions displaced later....

[CorpGovActivist]

8. I Share Your Viewpoints...

... and will add a few of my own that I think relate directly to donor disclosure.

In instance after instance, the Clintons have sacrificed individuals (e.g., prospective nominees, actual appointees) for their own expedience.

For me, I cannot help but also think of how both Clintons have treated an entire group to which I belong: the LGBT community.

- Dave

[TomInTib]

2. In about 1.3 seconds....

Probably print up millions of lists in leaflet form and shower the Primary States with them.

[CorpGovActivist]

6. The Ecological Implications Aside...

... what makes you say so? Examples of past conduct that informed your thinking?

- Dave

[TomInTib]

31. As much as I admire Bill Clinton.

I have always thought that The Clinton Way is to review your options and take the most politically expedient route.

[CorpGovActivist]

33. "No man is justified in doing evil on the ground of expediency."

The Strenuous Life: Essays and Addresses, Theodore Roosevelt, 1900

[Name removed]

3. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Richard Steele]

4. You know it! nm

[CorpGovActivist]

13. What Makes You Say So? Examples of Past Conduct? n/t

[Richard Steele]

37. Well, it's my opinion that the Clintons never place political ideals above political expediency.

Not that that's always a bad thing, mind you...

You could make a case that such an outlook is
the main reason Bill was able to accomplish as
much as he did while confronted with a Repub
Congress.

[CorpGovActivist]

93. A Principled Sort of Unprincipled? *wink*

[MyNameGoesHere]

9. We need to get Ken Starr on this immediately

Dammit i am ready for the government to spend another 40-50 million to investigate this, i demand it. KEN COME BACK WE NEED YOU!!

[CorpGovActivist]

12. No Need ...

... unless you're projecting your neurotic fear that the Clinton donor lists may give rise to reasonable inferences of potential criminal activity that violates one or more sections of Title 18 of the U.S. Code.

- Dave

[MyNameGoesHere]

14. Who cares. We need to investigate this and RIGHT NOW!

And who better than Ken Starr?

[CorpGovActivist]

18. Each American Can Do It for Him/Herself at a Fraction of the Time and Cost ...

... so your attempt at sarcasm aside, nah.

All that's necessary is for the unredacted lists to be made public, and then each voter can make up his or her own mind. No need to page Ken.

- Dave

[Enrique]

10. I don't know

but this sounds like one of those manufactured scandals that Clinton opponents, usually right-wingers, keep pounding on in the hope that people will eventually think is really important.

[CorpGovActivist]

15. I Confess; I'm a Member of the Vast...

... "Informed Voter Conspiracy."

- Dave

[Enrique]

17. are the Freepers that obsessively research all the phony Clinton scandals "informed" too?

the ones that buy all the exposes on DVD, read NewsMax and the American Spectator religiously, are they all "informed voters?"

[CorpGovActivist]

19. Are the Clintonites Who Defend Donor Secrecy...

... informed voters? Are they?

*snort of utter contempt*

- Dave

[Enrique]

23. sometimes people tell me I should be concerned about something

sometimes they post multiple topics about something they are framing as a scandal, but which doesn't sound like a scandal to me.

I have to decide whether I should bother informing myself or if it's just more phony stuff.

Sometimes it's really easy to spot and I don't worry too much about it.

I still consider myself an informed voter, it's just that I don't buy everything someone tries to sell me.

[CorpGovActivist]

24. *shrug* The Data Speaks for Itself...

... in the free marketplace of ideas, like any bazaar, there's no harm in at least picking up the wares and inspecting them, no purchase required.

In other words, those who can't be bothered to at least look at the primary documents may be missing out on something they didn't know that they needed to cast an informed vote.

- Dave

[Enrique]

25. and some sellers are really aggressive

they engage in a campaign where they post a different aspect of the "scandal" every day.

[CorpGovActivist]

27. Day XXXX of the Clintons Hiding the Data, and Counting

If you look at it that way, it's just another day that the Clintons have stonewalled on voluntarily disclosing the data.

So why wouldn't open-government types keep a daily drumbeat up?

- Dave

[paulk]

50. what "data"?

In your tireless pushing of this "scandal to be", you have yet to provide any "data".

All you've given us is conjecture and innuendo...

[CorpGovActivist]

51. Move along, PK ... Nothing to See Here n/t

[paulk]

56. you don't have an answer, do you?

you have nothing but innuendo and an attitude.

[CorpGovActivist]

59. I've Given It; You've Ignored It - Ad Nauseum, but Not...

... ad infinitum.

In plain English: the cycle of you pretending to be obtuse ends here.

- Dave

[paulk]

66. you haven't given any data or facts

None.Nada. Zilch.

All you give is innuendo, supposition, and vague accusations of wrongdoing.

The intellectual superiority gambit ain't going to work, Dave.

You're full of shit and all the big words in the world won't change that.

[CorpGovActivist]

69. You Haven't Been Reading/Following Links, Then n/t

[Evergreen Emerald]

11. No. Because it is not HER that is keeping the donations secret

It is the donor's right to privacy about where their money goes. Bill Clinton did an interview about this issue. He said he has people from all walks of life who have donated to this WORTHY cause.

Remember. It is Charity. Helping people on a global level. The good this charity has done is awesome.

Dave: do you begrudge the people the benefits they have received from this charity?

[CorpGovActivist]

20. Do You Deny That the Foundation Has the Discretion...

... to make the donor lists public?

I don't begrudge the benefits that recipients of organized religious charity receive, but I also have my eyes wide open to the fact that the charities in question are often corrupt to their core.

- Dave

[Evergreen Emerald]

28. I don't know. I know that the donor has the option of anonymity

in their donations. And I know that, if a republican wanted to give money to a worthy cause, even one headed by Bill Clinton, he may want it anonymous for political and personal reasons.


I do not know if Clinton can give the names despite the donor's request. I do know that it is not good for getting other donors!

[CorpGovActivist]

29. Within the Confines of the Applicable Tax Law...

... and subject to the discretionary decisions of the entity, and/or the rulings of a Federal Court.

- Dave

[Dorian Gray]

16. Absolutely...

though I don't think that distinguishes them from any other candidate. Ever.

[CorpGovActivist]

21. I Dunno...

... I think there are a few rare public servants in our history who lay their cards - even the bad ones - on the table.

- Dave

[Dorian Gray]

22. Oh sure...

there are some that I truly respect. But, I am jaded and they seem to be fewer and more far between these days. (DK is one that I love, but he doesn't have any traction for the big election.)

[CorpGovActivist]

26. You Might Call up Kucinich's Office and Ask If He Supports Waxman ...

... on presidential library donor disclosure: http://oversight.house.gov/story.asp?ID=1192

- Dave

[CorpGovActivist]

30. At 25 Votes, a Slight Trend Has Emerged n/t

[Perry Logan]

32. And what's even sadder, the perpetrators are evidently quite proud of themselves.

[CorpGovActivist]

34. Perpetrating a Truth on the American People Is a Crime?

Or just "bad form," according to Bill and Hillary Clinton?

- Dave

[Richard Steele]

38. Proudly standing up for TRANSPARENCY in our elected officials' dealings? You betcha. nm

[CorpGovActivist]

40. I Sleep Just Fine at Night n/t

[dysfunctional press]

35. "If It Were to Her Political Benefit" is there anything they WOULDN'T do?

:shrug:

[CorpGovActivist]

36. Are You Asking Rhetorically?

That's a noodler, for sure.

- Dave

[bvar22]

55. I don't think Hillary would go as far as murdering Vince Foster (LOL).

I do think she would help condemn a generation of Iraqis to WAR/Occupation if it would help her into the Oval Office.

Just my opinion.

[CorpGovActivist]

60. Luckily, The Data in Question ...

... isn't really conducive to conspiracy theories. It's cut and dried: names, amounts, dates.

- Dave

[mmonk]

39. Another question might be, would they fight disclosure

if the donors were to appear politically inconvenient?

[CorpGovActivist]

41. Futile Fight, at This Point, Methinks n/t

[mmonk]

45. I'm setting my watch.

January is upon us very soon.

[CorpGovActivist]

46. "Thank You for Calling the Clinton Foundation Time Line; at the Sound of the Tone..."

... it will be a 'quarter to never, voluntary donor list revelation time'."

- Dave

[CorpGovActivist]

42. At 30 Votes, There Has Been a Sudden Surge in "No" Votes n/t

[WillTheGoober]

43. heh ...

Let's ask more statement-polls about Hillary.

It's such a clear one-sided attack.
You've got to be kidding me.

The question is ...
Would any of these candidates do something to help themselves politically?

We have candidates for the Democratic party that have completely switched their positions -- have taken on a completely new philosophy without ever having a voting record or any kind of proof that they actually believe these things.

Hillary is cool, collected, and committed.
I'm so excited about her candidacy and election.

''W.''

[CorpGovActivist]

44. Convictions?

Maybe, once the lists are public.

- Dave

[WillTheGoober]

47. I disagree everything should be public ...

I simply disagree.

We have more than enough to judge Hillary. She has been scrutinized over the years -- beat up and battered by the Republican machine.

Here is a loyal Democrat who has taken bullets out there and this forum decides to turn its head on her. That's absurd.

This isn't Democratic Underground, this has become Mean Green Elitist Undercover.

Hillary is controlling and she is calculated -- but I believe an effective presidency requires those qualities.

Giving more fuel to Republicans is absurd -- and if your candidate cannot beat Hillary on her LONG LONG record and history in the public eye, then shame on them.

W.

[CorpGovActivist]

48. Should the Bush Library Donors Be Public?

And do you think Waxman is wrong to demand presidential library donor disclosure, across the board?

- Dave

[WillTheGoober]

49. Well ...

Let's not even bring Bush into this.

Bush is a whole other 'nother subject.
He has disclosed nothing -- has corrupted the executive branch -- has bankrupted this country -- and has used the sentiments of a mourning country post-911 to fulfill an agenda; despite having a glowing opportunity to make incredible progress.

The entire Hillary/Bush comparison is bogus.
She deserves so much more respect than that.

Hillary cares about this country and will be domestically progressive/liberal.

I think this lady has the right elements to bring this country out the Bushes!

W.

[CorpGovActivist]

52. Can Hillary Shine a Light on the Bushes' Library Donors?

If not, because of her own problems in that regard, then shame on her.

- Dave

[WillTheGoober]

62. Hillary always talks about light ...

And it shines brightly.

[CorpGovActivist]

64. Actions Speak Louder Than Words...

... and if she cannot shine a light on the Bushes' library donors because of the double standard problem she faces, then shame on her.

- Dave

[WillTheGoober]

65. Well ...

This is not an issue right now.

Let's not get distracted.

[CorpGovActivist]

70. *snicker* I Can Hear Hillary Practicing That Line As Obi Wan...

... and she can save that Jedi Mind Trick for Chelsea, who might still be susceptible to it.

- Dave

[WillTheGoober]

73. That's not nice ...

[CorpGovActivist]

75. Sometimes, Hillary Humor Hurts n/t

[WillTheGoober]

77. Hillary's Daughter is fair play?

That's unfortunate.

But ok. :)

W.

[CorpGovActivist]

80. The "Mother Knows Best," "Eat Your Vegetables," "Jedi Mind Trick" Tone...

... is what I was referencing.

"Trust her, she knows best" is not a basis for a vote.

- Dave

[WillTheGoober]

89. Ok.

[fascisthunter]

67. Compromised

Politicians who are compromised are easily black mailable.

[CorpGovActivist]

71. Exposed

Politicians who live in fear of being exposed - and don't air their own dirty laundry - usually end up being exposed: both as cowards for not revealing the data, and as slimy, for what the data describes and shows.

- Dave

[fascisthunter]

78. Yup.... We Need Less of That Today, More Than Ever (nt)

[CorpGovActivist]

91. Amen! (n/t)

[WillTheGoober]

74. heh ...

Nobody thinks of Hillary as weak.

[CorpGovActivist]

76. Scared to Divulge the Data = Weak n/t

[fascisthunter]

79. Nobody? You Should Meet My Family, Friends and Neighbors

get out of the DC bubble. She's not only weak, she's a phony and most know it. Good luck with that illusion.

[CorpGovActivist]

82. Shrewdness as Strength ...

... is a common misconception these days.

- Dave

[fascisthunter]

87. It's a Part of the Corporate Culture

many good people see that as "selling out". Reminds me of an old friend of mine who mistakened my honesty as a sign of weakness. He now works on Wall Street making really good money, but is a sociopath who has very few real friends. I'd rather be poor.

[CorpGovActivist]

90. Rich Ale, Good Friends ...

... clear conscience, and eyes wide open.

Not a bad way to live.

; )

- Dave

[WillTheGoober]

85. You're Delusional -- No You Are -- No You Are ...

heh ... Ok.
I am blissfully delusional apparently because I think Hillary is great.

W.

[CorpGovActivist]

88. Ignorance Is Bliss, and Data Is Dangerous n/t

[Sparkly]

53. I'm a Clinton defender, and I voted "yes."

If it were, and they could, they would.

AND, I would answer the same way for ANY politician.

[CorpGovActivist]

54. Thank You

That was a very brave thing to do (identifying yourself as a Clinton defender who voted yes).

- Dave

[WillTheGoober]

63. Me too ...

Smart. :-)

[CorpGovActivist]

92. So You Concede...

... that the donor names are probably politically inexpedient for Senator Clinton and the former President? Just making sure that that's an accurate inference to draw.

- Dave

[leftofthedial]

57. they'd prance nekkid down Broadway

if it was to their political benefit

[CorpGovActivist]

61. My Mind's Eye! My Poor Mind's Eye!

:rofl:

- Dave

[CorpGovActivist]

58. At 40 Votes, 88% Think the Clintons Would Disclose...

... if they thought it would help Senator Clinton's political prospects.

- Dave

[Swamp Rat]

68. THEY cannot release this information to the puiblic at this time.

All will be revealed once the next phase of the invasion has begun. :hide:

[CorpGovActivist]

72. WOO HOO!

How are you?!?

We were musing as to who was staffing the SwampRatSignal the other night!

: )

Happy Holidays, and this is awesome!!!

- Dave

[Swamp Rat]

81. I was in the RatCave working on the pic above.

:D



I am GREAT, now that I have finished the Masters degree I was working on, and finally had a chance to sleep for a few days. How 'bout you? :hi:

[CorpGovActivist]

84. SWEET!

What is the Masters in?

CONGRATS!!!

: )

- Dave

[Swamp Rat]

111. She blinded me with...

SCIENCE!

:D

[CorpGovActivist]

112. Do You Have an Online Collection of Your Best/Favorites? n/t

[Swamp Rat]

114. It needs to be updated

Here ya go: :D

http://www.swamp-rat.com/

[CorpGovActivist]

116. Neat!

Many thanks. Do you ever undertake commissions (e.g., for a website)?

- Dave

[fascisthunter]

83. Lol.... Holy Moly

my chest hurts

[CorpGovActivist]

86. That Should Come with an "Inhaler Alert" Warning...

... for wheezing, neurotic Clintonites' benefit.

- Dave

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

94. This is a dumb poll. In fact, it's another example of one of the many push-polls

that have been raising their ugly heads around here lately. It's disingenuous to ask a slanted question that can have only one answer, the one you want. Why not just offer your opinion, that the Clintons aren't disclosing their donors for political reasons, and then just see if anybody disagrees or agrees? These polls are silly.

[CorpGovActivist]

96. Socrates, Father of the Push Poll?

Thought-provoking questions, intended to help the questioned parse through their own thinking, have a valid place in participatory democracy.

- Dave

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

99. I don't object to the question; it's a valid one. I do object to the form.

You state the question in a way that begs only one answer, which is the one you want. It's like cross-examination at a trial, which is by definition a partisan process -- you ask a question in a way that requires the witness to answer the question the way the cross-examiner wants it answered. Personally, I think the Clintons are withholding the donor list for political reasons because that's why they do everything (although I will not limit that criticism to the Clintons). But raising the issue in the form of a "poll" is intellectually dishonest, and not Socratic at all.

[CorpGovActivist]

101. Socrates Never Used a Show of Hands?

I think the historical evidence suggests otherwise.

- Dave

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

103. I'm very familiar with the so-called "Socratic Method,"

having had to endure it for several years of law school. What that means is that you are given a question and you have to defend your position, at least until the questioner has allowed you to dig yourself into a deep hole. The "show of hands" part was just the beginning.

[CorpGovActivist]

104. "The 'show of hands' part was just the beginning."

Hence the ensuing discussion in the thread.

- Dave

[CorpGovActivist]

95. At 50 Votes, 84% Believe the Clintons...

... would publish the donors' names if it were politically expedient so to do.

- Dave

[Elspeth]

97. What is this about? (I missed something, I guess.)

?

[CorpGovActivist]

100. The Clinton Foundation Donor Lists ...

... the http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=clinton+foundation+donor+lists">names on which are currently secret.

- Dave

[Elspeth]

106. Thanks.

Appreciate it.

[CorpGovActivist]

108. You're Most Welcome, and ...

... a search of the DU archives is a good place to focus your search, if the number of results is overwhelming.

- Dave

[cherokeeprogressive]

98. Ab-So-Fucking-Lutely.

[CorpGovActivist]

102. Eastern or Oklahoma?

Eastern here.

- Dave

[cherokeeprogressive]

105. Oklahoma

But my roots trace back to Nan-ye-he GHI-GA-U via the Harlans and Roach's. My tribal roll number derives from Toolie Catron's and Hester Flute's and my CDIB is 13/64.

Chris

[CorpGovActivist]

107. My Mom...

... has been working on getting enrolled; her maternal grandmother was full-blooded, but - as you probably know - the enrollment process is arcane and arduous.

Even so, she's enjoyed working to bring artifacts to the new Smithsonian museum, and there's some pretty cool stuff she's persuaded others to part with for that collection, too.

VERY COOL that you've got it traced and documented! Do you get back for a lot of the heritage events?

- Dave

[cherokeeprogressive]

109. I wish I did.

Here's a cool link that might help you trace your ancestry, thanks to a woman named Nancy Ward who compiled it. Using this list, and links I found because of it, I found that my Great Grandfather Toolie is buried next to the Illinois River in OK, in a cemetery that bears his name.

To use the site, click the SURNAME link. You might be amazed. I was! I spent HOURS looking through the names I knew.

Du'er Heidi is also very involved with the OK band.

http://www.nancyward.com/surnames.htm

CHEERS!

[CorpGovActivist]

110. Very Cool!!! Thank You!

I'll pass that along, and poke around a bit myself.

- Dave

[cherokeeprogressive]

113. You are more than welcome.

As an indian with a tribal roll number, I have an extra ID number as far as the US gubmint is concerned. My Grandpa used to tell me jokingly that it was because the gubmint KNEW that if they didn't keep us on the Res, and keep good track of us, we'd surely take this place back.

[CorpGovActivist]

115. Healthy Skepticism...

... somehow creeps in from that quarter; can't imagine why!

; )

Your grandfather sounds like quite a character. I had one of those, too.

Ever been to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keetoowah">the Keetoowah digs? Some very cool stuff is still being unearthed.

- Dave

[cherokeeprogressive]

117. I'll put it on my list of things to see/places to go.

If you put dark sunglasses and a fedora on my G'pa, he looked almost exactly like BB King.

He was an alcoholic who could do anything in the world with his hands, made clocks, could make anything in the world out of wood, could SMELL a fish (or so he said!) in the water, and will always occupy the #1 Hero spot in my heart. Even moreso than my own dad.

When he died, I put a letter and a crappie lure with a short piece of line tied in the Fisherman's Knot (that he taught me) in his hands before they closed his casket. Even now, I miss him terribly, and he died 10 years ago.

[CorpGovActivist]

118. A Very Touching Tribute...

... I'm sure he must have been very proud of you. I lost mine around the same time.

Can you smell the fish in the water yet?

; )

- Dave