Interesting debate with my teenage son re: parental rights vs. child/student privacy rights

[liberalhistorian]

So, my teenage son was furious with me for looking at an IM exchange on our computer and discovering something that had happened at school that he hadn't wanted me to know about but that several kids were upset about.

He has Asperger's Syndrome, a type of high-functioning autism that mainly involves social skills impairment and difficulty in understanding the meaning of others during conversations. He apparently had mistaken the joking statement of one of his female friends for a serious statement and proceeded to tell a couple of others what she'd said about herself, not realizing that they would then tell others that he hadn't meant to discuss it with. The IM exchange involved the girl being very angry and hurt and extremely upset with him. He tried to explain himself and apologize and they finally all got it straightened out and things were fine.

He hadn't wanted me to know about it and was very angry and upset that I'd looked at his IM exchange. I explained that it really wasn't "his" computer, first of all, and, second, as his parent, I had the right to see what he was doing on the computer and to know what was happening at school whether he wanted me to know or not. I said that I also had the right to look at everything else of "his", including in his room, and to know everything that was happening with him.

I usually don't "snoop" too much, because he really is a good kid who doesn't drink, smoke, do drugs, get in trouble, he's good to his friends and others, etc., etc. But I do believe I had the right to look at his IM's and discuss the situation with him, even though it's already been "straightened" out.

So we recently had a discussion regarding my rights, as his mother, to "snoop", as he puts it, vs. his privacy rights as a minor. I explained that he had limited privacy rights while he was a minor and that I had the right to "snoop", even though I usually don't do that too much. He then started going on about the First Amendment and the "amendment against unreasonable searches", etc. I said too bad, those apply to adults and don't fully apply to those under 18. He muttered something about the Supreme Court and I said that the Court itself had ruled that students under 18 did not have the same privacy rights as adults. I explained that, at school, the teachers and administrators could search his locker and other belongings without his permission; holy SHIT, did he go nuts over that one, lol.

We talked for quite awhile about it, with me trying to explain the reasoning behind it and that, as his parent, I had more rights than he did at this age and that that was the way it should be. It didn't give me the right to be abusive about it, of course, and to take advantage of it, but I do believe that parents do and should have much more rights in this respect than their minor children. Call me old-fashioned, but I believe that that's the way it should be. Anyone else discuss this with their teenagers?

[msongs]

1. parents who lets kids have unsupervised internet connections (bedroom etc) are nuts nt

[liberalhistorian]

2. I totally agree, and that's one of the things

I was trying to explain to him. The hardest thing was getting him to understand that I wasn't "spying" on him or being distrustful, I was just doing my job as a parent.

[Whisp]

9. agree with you for the most part...

your concern is for his safety so there shouldn't be any holds barred in that respect, I do agree.

but....

if there is a way for him to feel like he has some kind of inviolate private place, something that is his alone because I think that is very important in the growing years - weaning yourself off your parents and learning to stand and fall on your own. Maybe one area that he has total control over as well.

I hope this makes sense and helps you in some way.
I just remeber how terrifying it was raising a child (she's early 20s now and still scares me sometime ), all that responsibility, am I doing this right? am I stunting her? I made some pretty daring decisions in her early teens years - I caught her smoking some pot with some girlfriends, but instead of having a hairy fit in front of them all I talked to my daughter alone about it later - I can't stop you from trying this, wish you wouldn't, but please don't hide it from me (worried about other more dangerous stuff she may get into), I wanted that line of communication open - so I could, and did, ask her questions like haveyou ever tried this, that, etc., and she would answer me honestly.
but those experiemental days of hers with that kind of crap is over, and it all worked out, maybe not because of how I decided to handle it, but it did and I am glad. but during these times I was very very contested by some family about how I was an accomplice, a bad parent, I should go Attilla the Hun on her, etc.

[liberalhistorian]

11. I do try to give him that sense that you're talking about;

at the same time, I've made it very clear that I have the right to "snoop" whenever and however I want. He's a good kid who's rarely given me any cause to do so, but I still have that right and he has limited privacy rights.

[Whisp]

21. if my mom or dad looked in my diary....

omg, that would be unforgivable.
there are just some things you do not touch, I think.
that's all I'm saying here.

[Pakhet]

22. Diary's and notebooks and even sketchpads are off limits

but computers are fair game for "snooping". I never did much snooping, but I'm sure my daughter thought I might because I told her several times that she didn't have any right of privacy in my house. then I went ahead and respected her privacy anyway and she appreciated it.

[tbyg52]

3. Not old-fashioned at all

If I had a kid, the computer would be in the family room or kitchen, and there would be heavy-duty monitoring software on it. And I'd make sure he/she knew the software was there and that I reserved the right to look at absolutely anything that went on, anytime.

[liberalhistorian]

5. Agreed, and the computer is in the living room

where everyone can see it and see what's going on with it. There was a time a few years ago when he believed everything he read on the net, no matter what it was. Part of it was his youthful gullibility and part of it was fascination with the net and, therefore, difficulty in believing anything negative about it. He's more than changed in that regard and has a healthy cynicism about it, now, but it was a struggle at first.

[LanternWaste]

16. And I think that's why children and kids require supervision...

"Part of it was his youthful gullibility..."

And I think that's why children require supervision-- until a particular age is reached, all kids are pretty gullible in that they believe those things they want to and disbelieve the other-- regardless of evidence and facts presented.

My god-daughter (thirteen at the time) was shocked (shocked, I tell you!) to find out that her online paramour was in reality a 40-something grease ball.

I'd much rather be accused by a kid of invading their privacy than allow that kids to get taken advantage of, or place themselves in danger due to my passive negligence.

Anyway, you may want to let you son in on that dirty little secret-- adults have less privacy than kids. Between cell phones and blackberries issued by the office, to every yahoo on the street videotaping my evening jog because they can't find any cops beating someone up, I'd actually find it refreshing to have only a school district and a parent or two breathing down my neck.

[Buzz Clik]

4. Anyone who doesn't discuss this with their kids believes that kids have the right to total privacy.

With minors, it's a tough call. Do you violate their privacy to simply gather information, even if you suspect nothing? I wouldn't. How about if you know something's up? If your kid has a history of bad behavior? Or if your kid has a history of self-destruction?

Most of us are willing to invade a kid's privacy under extreme circumstances. (I always chuckle when teenagers insist that it's "my room!")

If your kid goes to college, you can kiss the information goodbye. The federal laws are so tight now, you can't even call to see if the kid has been going to class or what his grades or even what his phone number is.

But reading IMs -- ugh. Only under dire circumstances.

[liberalhistorian]

6. Well, my reading of his IM exchange actually

happened by accident. He had left to go do something else for awhile and had not closed his IM before leaving the computer. I sat down to use it, and it was right in front of me. I normally don't go reading and searching through his IM's.

[IndyOp]

14. If your kid goes to college - you can't even call to see if the kid has been

going to class or what his grades or even what his phone number is.

Actually, I think that if you call the University main switchboard and state the student's name they will give out the phone number.

I teach at a Big 10 university and I've gotten more emails this past semester from helicopter parents than any previous semester.

I had a parent who emailed me about two months ago worried about how her daughter was doing after the death of her grandmother. Mom wanted to know whether the daughter was attending class and wanted me to keep her posted if her daughter's grade dropped. I had to inform her that I can't release any information about her daughter's grade without her daughter's written permission. I also let Mom know that her daughter is one of 255 students in my introductory class -- I had no idea who her daughter is... I think it is weird that she didn't think that her daughter would tell her if she was in distress or didn't think her daughter would answer her questions honestly if she asked about how she was doing personally and academically.

I would've been profoundly embarrassed if my parents had contacted one of my professors about any issue.

[Buzz Clik]

19. You folks surely have instituted FERPA...

I cannot access my own class rosters without having been FERPA certified. It's a convoluted series of regulations regarding privacy and what can and cannot be released, with and without student permission. It makes my head swim. I've taken the default position of telling absolutely nothing to anyone except the student.

[riderinthestorm]

7. First off, let me preface my comments with a disclaimer that I haven't ever searched my kids' stuff

I haven't had any need to do that so I haven't. I really, really have good kids and (knock on wood), I really do trust them. And yes, I've had this discussion with my kids and they know that if I ever am suspicious of them or their actions, I will be looking.

That said there are two things that premise my position:
1. I "own" pretty much everything my kids' use, including cars, computers etc. so it's well within my rights to check out what's going on with these things, if needs be.
2. I have a cleaning lady come in twice/month and the house is scrubbed - including their rooms. My kids' know that if they don't want ME tidying their room for the cleaning lady, they must tidy it themselves. Otherwise it's me yanking off their sheets, picking shit up, pulling stuff out of pockets to toss down the laundry chute, opening desk drawers to put stuff away, closing down computer screens so they can be appropriately dusted etc. In other words, they have to take some responsibility for keeping their stuff private too. If they don't, and I find it, so be it.

That said, I still can't figure out their facebook password, dammit! :P

Bottom line though: kids have to earn your trust. And every relationship is different.

[Buzz Clik]

20. "That said, I still can't figure out their facebook password..." oy!

I don't want to.

Facebook can be such a cesspool.

[Marrah_G]

8. My children have no expectation of privacy

They know I do not snoop in their things, but they also know if I ever have concern, I will no hesitate to go through their things.

They have no expectation of computer privacy and if they try and hide what they are writing when I pass by then they love privileges. In my children's High School there was already one case this year where a girl was gang raped by 4 older teens (gang member types) after going to meet what she thought was one nice kid she met on the net. I also had issues with an older boy behaving inappropriately with my daughter when she was 14 in private messages. I put a stop to that quickly.

[seabeyond]

10. already had conversation with 9 yr old about rights, constitutional rights, supreme court ruling

in child rights.... bah hahahah.... and my two boys clearly understand that they have no rights and i will snoop and anything else including booze or drug tests if i deem it necessary. i have not quibbled at all about what my job as a parent is, though as a child or teenager it is their job to try and get their misbehavior past me. no child/teenager is perfect, a lot are good, some are hell on wheels, i expect no less from my kids, ... non perfection. but it is my job to keep eye on them, however.

they clearly understand internet will never be a private place of theirs. and they are young. i want them to have no illusions on that.

[gratuitous]

12. I think follow-up is required

First off, make sure he knows you're not judging him about the incident. And it's hard to step out of the "parent" role and go ino the "older person offering some friendly advice to someone who is (yes) young and inexperienced," but make sure he knows that your primary concern for him is knowing how to handle himself better in social situations.

The internet is a notoriously "flat" medium of communication, and even people without Asperger's misunderstand what is being said. He shouldn't feel embarrassed by the difficulty, and that you're proud of him for bringing the situation to a successful conclusion.

[liberalhistorian]

23. Oh, no, I didn't judge him at all. I'm a social klutz

myself and I well understand how difficult it is for him at times, especially in the world of high school. My point was that I had and have the right to know what is happening with him, whether he likes it or not or whether he wants me to or not. That's just the way it is if you're a minor, and that's the way it should be.

[The2ndWheel]

13. That's pretty much how it goes

It's the reason the government/corporations, and corporations/governments will not only get away with what they do now in terms of this sort of thing, but get away with it in the future after they come up with better ways to gather information. The only difference is the scale. Here, it's one parent and one kid. There, it's one corpoment and one population. That's just how it's going to be.

Just like kids trying to hide things from their parents, the population will do the same from the government/corporation. Just like parents will make the kid understand what exactly is what, the goveration will do the same. It'll be a give and take, a win for one side here, a win for one side there. Then the cycle will continue when the kid is now a parent, etc, etc.

I'm not saying you as a parent don't have the right to choose to do it. Your kid will fight it though. He has to. If he didn't, he wouldn't be a living being with his own thoughts. Just like the population fights the NSA and the communication companies from knowing what it does at all times. I have a decent idea of who wins the overall battle in each case, but, hey, circle of life and all.

[TNDemo]

15. My basic theory is that privacy for a minor is a privilege, not a right.

As long as they behave well and give me no reason to be suspicious, they can have all the privacy they want. It's a privilege they earn. When behavior or circumstances make me suspicious, the privilege is suspended.

However, you have to be careful not to give away your resources or they will dry up. Mine have been good kids (only one minor left) but numerous times I have had my mother antenna go off and I have found ways to check up on them to reassure myself or to put a halt to something. One time when my 27-year-old was an 8th grader she had a friend from hell that I was suspicious of. I actually climbed up in the attic and put my ear to the vent (man, it was cold up there) and heard her plotting with this friend to run away to Florida. We put the kabosh on that real quick. A lot of the times when they were up to something (I am continually amazed at the people who will go off for the weekend and leave their kids home) I would sniff it out and I would have the bad timing to schedule something so they had to be somewhere else.

I didn't do a whole lot of snooping, just when I felt the need to, but don't regret any of it. I bet there are parents in Columbine who wished a couple of parents there had done some more of it.

[sandnsea]

17. You're responsible for the consequences

As long as you have to pick up the pieces, emotionally and financially, you have some extra rights to limit behavior and investigate what's going on in your home. Explain some consequences he might not have thought of, like losing property due to drug presence or being evicted, things like that. Obviously you are so grateful that you don't have to worry about those things with him, but that's why parents have to have these rights. They have to shoulder the responsibility and consequences.

[liberalhistorian]

24. Exactly! Parents are responsible

for the actions of their minor children, financially and, in many cases, legally. My son is a good kid who's not gotten into any real trouble. I do try to respect his privacy, for the most part, but I won't hesitate to "snoop" if necessary. And his computer usage is totally fair game for monitoring, period.

[pipoman]

18. We have 2 16 year old boys

and they have no privacy beyond bathroom and such. They both have laptops and I will and do look. I am never critical of what they look at as long as it isn't terrible (I expect some soft porn etc). I monitor their facebook pages always and their IM conversations occasionally. I look at their text messages on their cell phones and pay attention to who they call and for how long. It is my job, as you say. Again, I am not naive, I don't bitch about cussing as long at it isn't too nasty or in anger. We have sent the link to both of their facebooks to their grandma and shown her how to look. Now they don't put anything on there which they don't want grandma to see. Even if the Bush Court made a ruling that I couldn't look I still would, "get a court order and I might stop but not before I take back all that is mine". At that point privacy wouldn't be an issue as they would have nothing left.

Keep it up mom. Just because you have a good kid (as I do) you should be there at the first slip (and there will be some).

[mdmc]

25. kick

God bless the parents!

[knitter4democracy]

26. I've never understood why teens think they have privacy at high school.

I always had to explain to my students every year that the Constitution did not apply to them (private schools, so even more so). Locker searches were more than legal and right.

As for my kids, they're young and have little privacy. They don't get to be on the computer unless it's with me, and I monitor what they watch and listen to. We only have the one tv, and their iPod shuffles from Grandma sync on my laptop, so it's not too hard. When they're older, they're going to have to be okay with random searches and all. Since I would be responsible for their behavior, they'd have to submit to my knowing what they're up to.

[treestar]

27. He has all the rights, he just, like you, has them from the government

The government cannot look at his IMs, etc. without probable cause (* claims to the contrary notwithstanding). But his parent is not the government.

So, IMO, it is incorrect to say he does not have the rights because he is a minor. It's just that you are not the government.

So since he lives with you, and you own all his stuff, and he's not an adult, you can snoop all you want. Even if it resulted in evidence of a crime (not saying he would do that, just as an example) you could turn that into the cops. It's that the cops can't just search him without a warrant.

[Occulus]

28. Your attitude reminds me a LOT of my own mother's

That's not a compliment. Good on him for being concerned. He has every right to take you to task for your attitude, even if you think you're "right".

You've proven to him that he is not enough worthy of your trust in a sufficient amount for you to give him a space that you trust him with. I don't know anything at all about your son; I can only go by what you wrote about him on this thread, but you yourself said that he doesn't get into trouble, doesn't do drugs, is doing well in school, even as an Aspie, straightened out a social situation without your involvement or help, and yet somehow, you still do not trust him to the level he feels he deserves.

This is what happened to me (I use myself and my own experience as an example of something a child may wish desperately to hide from their parents): my mom had a suspicion that I was gay when I was 18, and asked a couple times, but the asking was clearly tinged- nay, deeply tinted- with an aura of "you better fucking not be". I knew, beyond doubt, that I had to hide that.

Instant mistrust. Suddenly, even my own existence, my self, wasn't my own. It was hers, in her mind.

When I was 19, I cam home to find every last blessed gay-oriented piece of material spread out over my bedroom floor like an accusation. She justified herself by saying that it wasn't really "my" room, "my" bed, "my" closet- pun intended. Keep in mind, I was 19; legally, I was a tenant. She really did not have any right to snoop, but because she had gotten used to the mindset you're evincing here, she thought it was still operative, just because it was her house. Anyway, she then gave me a wet ditch to sleep in. A year later, she and my father ended my school funding- after I moved back in with them because I had nowhere else to go. I haven't engaged in that which once was the core of my life and why I was in school since that day- ye gods, thirteen years ago.

I probably ought to write a book called "How Not to Parent", even though I don't have kids of my own, because I know what truly bad parenting is like from the receiving end. Mind you, I wasn't ever anything but emotionally abused, but it left deep, penetrating, and still not completely healed wounds that I'll probably have to live with for the rest of my life, wounds all the worse than the physical because the scars they leave behind aren't visible. But the mistrust that was brutally confirmed with that sad event had its origins very far back indeed.

I could talk about the time my mom believed the word of a neighbor over her own son, even though she wasn't there to see "it" happen, and the neighbor was relying on the words of her five-year-old daughter. I could tell you about another neighbor sitting on my chest because I called her out when she was being mean to my friend, her nephew, and how I didn't dare tell my mom because I knew she would blame me.

Seeds of mistrust.

I could tell you about the time my mom decided I couldn't be trusted with my paycheck while I was working with her at McDonald's. That was fun- the store manager forced her to give me my money (at least she couldn't argue that what I had earned wasn't really mine that time) and she literally threw my own paycheck at me. I could also talk about the time I got castigated for driving my own car more than 250 miles in a day around SW michigan, even though I paid for the gas, too, because even though the car was mine, it wasn't "mine" because they were paying for the insurance.

And on and on. I was a lot like you say your son is- I graduated high school with a 3.85 GPA, both NHS cords, more music awards than I can now count, the Sousa award for high school music excellence (given once a year by the band director), an oboe scholarship to Western Michigan University, and so on.

I can say without any guilt at all that I hate my mom. She completely ruined my life in more ways than one, and it's taken me years to come to grips with the fact that, no matter what I did, how many rules I followed, how little contact with the law I had (that being none, thank you), how good my grades were, what I accomplished outside of school- no matter what- I wasn't good enough for her or my father for me to say that they trusted me enough to deal with life on my own. To drive the point home, even after I turned 18, they opened my college grade report before I did.

It wasn't my education, after all. It was theirs, because they were paying for it.

I hope I've given you a bit of perspective, here, and I hope your son doesn't end up feeling about you the way I do about my own mother. The very very worst thing you can do to your kid if you are an otherwise good parent is to sow seeds of mistrust.