"The Arc of the Moral Universe is Long, But it Bends Toward Justice"

[undeterred]

I don't know who said it first, but Martin Luther King Jr. quoted it. If I didn't believe it, nothing would be worth fighting for.

[Dhalgren]

1. I believe that "justice" is made, just as "injustice" is. I do not think that

the Universe is in any way inherently "just". If we want justice we have to make it...

[undeterred]

2. I think we have to work for it too, and that it takes a very long time

with so many steps backwards in the midst of steps forwards that it hardly seems like we are moving at all. But people do persist in the fight for justice. Everything that happens, happens through us. When terrible things happen it helps to look at it from a long view, as King did.

[Dhalgren]

6. I got'cha!

It was the "moral Universe" phrase that I took exception to. But as far as the "long term" approach, I completely agree.

:hi:

[trotsky]

12. I completely agree.

Well said.

[flashl]

3. Orgin:

Theodore Parker, Unitarian minister, reformer and abolitionist

[undeterred]

5. Thanks.

I knew it was an abolitionist minister but thats all.

[H2O Man]

4. Martin used that

beautiful line in several speeches. Two of my favorites -- both of which are good to read at this unsettling time -- are: {1} His speech "If the Negro Wins, Labor Wins," delivered on 12-11-61 to the AFL-CIO at Bal Harbour, Florida; and {2} His "Our God Is Marching On!" speech (known in the movement as his "Jonah in the belly of the whale" address), delivered at the end of the bloody march that began at Selma's Edmund Pettus Bridge.

I hope you do not mind if I quote briefly from each:

{1} "I am convinced that we shall overcome because the arc of the universe is long but bends toward justice. We shall overcome because Carlyle is right when he says, 'No lie can live forever.' We shall overcome because William Cullen Bryant is right when he says, 'Truth crushed to earth will rise again.' We shall overcome because James Russell Lowell was right when he proclaimed: 'Truth forever on the scaffold, wrong forever on the throne, yet that scaffold sways the future'."

{2} "I know you are asking today, 'How long will it take?' I come to say to you this afternoon however difficult the moment, however frustrating the hour, it will not be long, because truth pressed to earth will rise again.

"How long? Not long, because no lie can live forever.

"How long? Not long, because yuou still reap what you sow.

"How long? Not long. Because the arm of the moral universe is long but it bends toward justice."

[undeterred]

7. 'truth pressed to earth will rise again"

thank you for those quotes, they are beautiful

[Warren Stupidity]

8. Wonderful sentiments but I don't think there is a moral universe

and the physical universe is indifferent. There is no moral universe in the sense of an externality that is concerned one way or another with our little bubble of life. There is a moral universe in the sense of our collective historical awareness as human beings, and in that sense perhaps King is right. But really that awareness only goes back a few thousand years at best, and I see no guarantee there that progress and enlightenment are inevitable. Just my gloomy outlook at the end of the year on a rather horrible day.

[undeterred]

9. Well then what can give you hope?

[Warren Stupidity]

10. I'm just saying there is no guarantee of progress.

I hope we can deal with our problems, I don't believe our ability to do so is guaranteed. Unlike King I do not believe that such progress is inevitable.

[H2O Man]

15. One error:

While I certainly respect your right to your own opinion, I think it is important to correct one important error you made when you said that, "Unlike King I do not believe that such progress is inevitable" -- which implies that Martin believed progress is inevitable. That is not accurate, and my aim is not to score a debater's point, but rather to try to expand people's understanding of exactly what Martin was speaking of.

On April 16, 1963, Martin wrote the essay titled "Letter from Birmingham City Jail." A number of ministers had publicly challenged King to stop his efforts in their city, because they believed "time" would take care of everything.

"I had also hoped that the white moderate would reject the myth of time," he wrote in response to one of the "please be patient" letters a white Christian leader sent him. "... All that is said here grows out of a tragic misconception of time. It is the strangely irrational notion that there is something in the very flow of time that will inevitably cure all ills. Actually, time is neutral. It can be used either destructively or constructively. I am coming to feel that the people of ill will have used time much more effectively than the people of good will. .... We must come to see that human progress never rolls in on wheels of inevitability. It comes through the tireless efforts and persistent work of men willing to be co-workers with God, and without this hard work time itself becomes an ally of the forces of social stagnation. We must use time creatively, and forever realize that the time is always ripe to do right. ..."

[undeterred]

16. Well said.

Everything good that happens, happens through us (or if you are religious, through the tireless efforts and persistent work of men and women willing to be co-workers with God).

[AspenRose]

17. Spanish Proverb: "Pray to God but hammer away." (eom)

.

[Warren Stupidity]

18. I have a hard time reconciling that with:

" the arc of the universe is long but bends toward justice". At any rate, as an optimistic atheist I hope that despite the fact that King and I disagree about that bend in the arc of the universe, and agree on the non-inevitability of progress, our tiny blip of self aware human civilization within our dismissively small bubble of life in an indifferent universe will in fact survive and prosper because there are enough good people with enough determination to see that happen.

And happy new year to you and all of your family.

[H2O Man]

19. And a happy

new year to you and yours, as well!

I think that Martin recognized that human beings' activities are a part of that universal arc. I'm confident that optimistic atheists have far more in common with King than differences that might separate them. And if he were alive today, I'm sure that he'd be involved in the same struggles that are discussed every day on DU, and that the government/corporate media/corporate churches would be smearing him as a heretic and a traitor.

[Toots]

13. If Impeachment hearings were to go forth

If we as a nation fail to hold our leaders accountable then there really is no hope..

[Toots]

11. While I agree those quotes sound wonderful they are afterall only wishful thinking

How would anyone know if a LIE lasted forever? The winners write the history books and those books are filled with LIES and if not out and out LIES the truth in many instances is just plain left out.. People need to believe that justice will win out but the reality is that in many instance it just does not. Bush* nor Cheney , nor Rove will spend one day in prison nor will they ever suffer from lack of money..Corporations will continue to Dictate and the poor nations will continue to suffer...But Hope is eternal and that I believe..:shrug:

[The2ndWheel]

14. Maybe as long as the non-human energy is cheap enough

How many slaves are in a barrel of oil(or any source of energy)?

Justice hasn't been won. It's been given because it was cheaper and more profitable in an era of underground energy to pay people to buy the mass produced goods that mechanization allows. I'm not saying we don't still have slavery, but that's only because these things take time(long arc and all). We lucked out more than had the universe bend towards justice.