Wow! They want to try to blame the victims for that horrible tiger attack in SF?

[ecstatic]

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/nation/5405492.html

The minimal evidence found at the scene included a shoe and blood in the 25-foot-wide moat that surrounds the tigers' grotto, raising questions about what role, if any, the victims might have had in accidentally helping the animal escape.

..

Officials speculated that one of the victims may have been dangling a leg or other body part over the 14-foot grotto wall and that Tatiana latched onto the limb and climbed out. Police sources said a footprint had been found on a metal fence, suggesting that someone had climbed it to get closer to the big cats.

Zoo Director Manuel Mollinedo said it was also likely that the animal was provoked.

"Somebody created a situation that really agitated her and gave her some sort of a method to break out," Mollinedo said. "There is no possible way the cat could have made it out of there in a single leap. I would surmise that there was help.

Sorry, I call BS. If the victims did provoke the tiger, then that was unfortunate, but there's no way that the tiger should have been able to escape in the first place.

[Maddy McCall]

1. If the victim stuck his leg over the edge of the TIGER enclosure...

he deserves the blame he's getting. Oh, and that would also qualify him not only as a victim, but also an idiot.

[MonkeyFunk]

4. Indeed

AS they say, if you try to make something idiot-proof, they'll just build a better idiot.

[Maddy McCall]

10. I mean, honestly...

who is raising these young people? Didn't anyone ever tell them that TIGERS EAT PEOPLE? That if a house cat can jump up 8 feet, surely a cat that's, oh, 25 times as large as a house cat can jump 15. (Just saw on the news that the wall at the moat was only 12.5 ft. Let's see...dangle a 3' leg over a 13' enclosure, and the basic math would tell you that the tiger would have little difficulty reaching the leg.)

Idiots.

[LisaL]

24. Well, honestly, how do you envision a tiger being dragged out

of the enclosure on a foot.
The boy would most likely have gone into the enclosure, had he dangled his foot, and tiger latched onto it.
And by the way, there was no shoe found inside the enclosure.

[Maddy McCall]

28. In your crusade-like response torrent on this topic, you're putting words in my mouth.

I didn't say that the kid dragged the tiger out. And, as I said in the post that WAS responding to you, there was a footprint found on the fence at the enclosure. The truth will come out soon enough.

[LisaL]

33. I have put no words into your mouth.

In your post, you've made a claim that the tiger would have no difficulty reaching the dangled foot.
What exactly were you suggesting there?
If you didn't think the tiger could have gotten out by latching onto the foot, what difference would it make whether it could have reached the foot or not?

[Maddy McCall]

40. My uncle used to tell me never to argue with a pig...

"It'll only frustrate you and irritate the pig."

I think I see his point in this discussion.

When you can approach the discussion by actually DISCUSSING what I said instead of acusing me of things I didn't say, then I'll listen. As for right now, I'm only irritating the pig.

[Lil Missy]

289. The version I heard was:

"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It doesn't work and it annoys the pig."

[CatWoman]

90. kick ass, Maddy

:)

:thumbsup:

[Divine Discontent]

58. I agree lizzy..

I thought the same thing - the fact that the animal got OUT shows the wall was not tall enough. barring them putting a prop in the moat to assist it, then the zoo is at fault for their deaths, regardless if they were taunting it or not - people are stupid at times - but you have to make the walls jump proof and it's coming out that they were shorter than they should have been.

[yardwork]

190. We get it that you are glad that this vicious tiger is dead. You've made it clear.

It was a "man-eating tiger" and needed to die, according to you. Well, it's dead now.

[Maddy McCall]

208. Tatiana as a cub in Denver, before being transferred to SF.

:(

[earth mom]

42. With all the violence on t.v. & in video games-the line between reality & fantasy is blurred.

Kids these days don't have a clue what real danger is-instead it's all about the adrenalin rush.

That's why so many kids sign up for war; they do not know that the reality of it is beyond horrific.

So, yeah, those kids didn't have a clue....

[TheFriendlyAnarchist]

154. lol. . .

The line between reality and fantasy is blurred? Not particularly. If you are a living, sapient being, then reality is pretty straight forward. I love the adrenalin rush too, but that doesn't mean I can't distinguish real life from fantasy.

[LisaL]

5. Well, as it turns out, no shoe was found in the grotto.

Also, the wall was shorter than recommended, only 12 1/2 feet, and not 20 feet, as originally reported.
So, I am questioning as to where the foot dangling idea came from.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/12/27/MNFFU5G80.DTL&tsp=1

[Maddy McCall]

22. A shoeprint was...and is being examined by forensics.

Fong said a forensic team would attempt to match a shoeprint found on the railing of the San Francisco Zoo tiger enclosure with shoes taken from the three victims of the fatal Christmas day attack to determine if the men were taunting the animal before it struck.

http://www.ktvu.com/news/14930388/detail.html

I'm betting that the threesome was taunting the tiger. More will be known soon.

[LisaL]

26. Shoe print on the railing is a far cry from

"the tiger latched onto the foot and got out that way."
The tiger had concrete on her back paws. Sounds to me that she climbed out, because the wall was shorter than recommended.

[Maddy McCall]

29. Are you daft? Incapable of processing other people's words?

I NEVER said that the tiger got out by latching onto the boy's foot. I said above, the tiger got out because the enclosure was low. I said that if the boy dangled his foot over, to taunt the tiger, that makes him an idiot.

Is that clearer for you?

[LisaL]

30. The idea that the boy dangled the foot over, it appears to me,

came from the claim that the shoe was found inside the grotto.
Turns out, the shoe was not found inside the grotto.
So, what gives you an idea the boy did dangle his foot over the wall?
And by the way, contrary to what you claim now, in your previous post you stated that the tiger would have no difficulty reaching the dangled leg. So, what exactly were you saying there?

[Maddy McCall]

32. What part of "IF" do you not understand?

[LisaL]

35. Well, if no shoe was found in the grotto, then what exactly

supports the idea the tiger gotten out by latching to a foot?

[Maddy McCall]

38. I never said that "the tiger gotten out by latching on a foot."

Amazingly thick-skulled.

[uppityperson]

63. aw, are you guys done? I want to see you discuss the word "out"

when the tiger was still IN the zoo. (sorry, been reading and shaking my head. How you doing Maddy? happy holidays to you and yours)

[Maddy McCall]

69. Hi, UP.

How ya doing?

Our family had a good Christmas, and I've done not much more than cook, eat, and sleep for the past couple of days. :hi:

[uppityperson]

71. Today's my home alone day off to veg.

Cruising DU, in pjs and robe. Fire going , snacks, soon a bath, windy and snow blowing but not sticking, jr was here, was very thoughtful, left again. All is good.

[Maddy McCall]

72. Sounds like a day in paradise, if you ask me!

That's basically what my day's been like. I've got terrible cramps today (ooof!) so I'm kinda lying on the couch in self-pity, wishing that I had something--anything--in my medicine cabinet to make them go away. Dr. called in anaprox and it hasn't put a dent in it. :cry:

But it sounds like you're having a great day...I'd love to have some snow here!

[Quantess]

294. Try calcium pills for cramps.

Take a lot of calcium pills (about 6 per day) in the few days before your period and the first couple of days of your period.

[atre]

115. I really don't think adding a conditional absolves you of your prejudice

You really learn a lot about someone when you learn what they believe in the absence of evidence.

[havocmom]

77. You make a good case for the need for further research in short term memory disorders

:eyes: In the time between reading Maddy's posts and responding to them, there seems to be some MAJOR data loss going on.

[Maddy McCall]

85. Hey, you!

How's winter up there? How're the holidays treating you? :hi:

[havocmom]

106. Things are fine now that I've had a Maddy sighting!

Hadn't seen you around and was gettin worried.

Winter mild so far. Holidays are sorta a non-event at my age and distance from family. Been mopey as hell lately though. Happier now that I see you around campus again. Was afraid all the 'bad kids' had left the site and not told me where they were goin ;)

[Maddy McCall]

166. I've had a busy, busy year!

Things really picked up for me over the summer...and then fall.

I'm glad to see you! You are one of my favoritest DUers ever. *smooch* :pals:

I'm not going anywhere else...I might disappear for a month or two, but DU will always be my internet home (much to the chagrin of some). :)

[havocmom]

287. Is it Dr Maddy McCall?

Do give me a holler now and then about what you are up to. I can live vicariously through your exploits. I am to friggen tired at my age for many of my own ;)

[springhill]

145. Why are you always so angry?

Your post are always so antagonistic. Too bad you are so unhappy.

[Maddy McCall]

161. I'm happy, content, and have little time for arguing with blockheads.

My character flaw is that I don't suffer fools well, and there seems to be more than the quota of those at DU these days.

I haven't posted at DU in ages until this past week...glad to know that I have a fan that has kept up with my posting activities through the five-plus years that I've been here, though. You can send a SASE, and I'll send you an autographed photo.

[atre]

249. I personally think it's foolish to jump to conclusions

based on incomplete information and - there's no denying this - incorrect information.

It really is silly how heated you've become in this discussion. None of us know what happened. Some of us are just better at recognizing that than others. And that seems to be the only issue at play here.

[atre]

120. Your words: "I'm betting on taunting"

that's pretty clear

[uppityperson]

140. Hmm, only place I see that quote is you.

Not very clear.

[atre]

142. Hmmm... I guess that post 22 doesn't appear on your screen like it does mine

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2540614#2540748

[uppityperson]

143. You mean the one that says "I'm betting that the threesome was taunting the tiger. More will be know

"I'm betting that the threesome was taunting the tiger. More will be known soon". I see that. I don't see, as you say

Your words: "I'm betting on taunting"

If you're going to quote someone, and say "your words", you should at least get the words right. I mean, really.

[atre]

158. Space limitations on quote line... Please explain the substantive difference.

All the true quote does is add the sentence's subject: "the threesome."

Have you ever read a newspaper, by the way? They're forced to shorten quotes all the time.

[Maddy McCall]

163. LOL. Using the mainstream media as an excuse for misquoting me.

That's cute!

[uppityperson]

172. hahahahahaha. You are soooo silly

There is a difference between "poster X said this" and "your words (inaccurate quote)". This is changing the words. Of course quotes are shortened, but if you shorten one, it is not "your words".

[Maddy McCall]

162. It seems that they flock together these days.

The people with reading comprehension problems, that is.

And the ones who resort to ad hominems to distract from the folly of their arguments.

:shrug:

[atre]

242. care to explain?

You're the only one here who has insulted anyone ("reading comprehension").

Plus, it doesn't look like you or your friends can find any substantive difference between what you said and my paraphrase. THAT is the real distraction here.

[uppityperson]

296. paraphrase vs "your words". There is a difference.

One summarizes, the other attributes. That is my issue. I agree, if it were a paraphrase, would be ok. But is not "your words (words in further quote)". Can you see the difference? THAT is the real distraction here.

[panzerfaust]

312. A quote is a quote, a paraphrase is not

Perhaps "Fear Not", is the same as "The only thing we have to fear is fear itself".

Perhaps not.

Even if it is, to pass "Fear Not" off as being what FDR said, is not correct - as a quote of FDR.

MSM may "shorten 'quotes'", but then the words are no longer quotes, and should not be in quotation marks. The whole point of quotation marks is to say "these are the actual words used".

Oh, and yeah, I do know about the incorrect punctuation I've used above.

[panzerfaust]

313. Deleted (wrong place: sorry)

[avenger64]

64. Well-put.

If that dumbass was taunting a tiger, my sympathy is with the animal. They should not have killed that beautiful cat because someone was hanging his damn leg over the railing, asking for trouble.

[11 Bravo]

83. Maybe a Darwin Award will ease his family's suffering.

[atre]

116. The Darwin awards should be reserved for the fools who have bought into the zoo's PR campaign

hook, line, and sinker... with no evidence WHATSOEVER.

1) There's no evidence that the tiger used a kid's leg to propel himself upward. What was cited previously to that effect was zoo officials speculating (and conveniently shifting the blame to the victims). Previous circumstantial evidence cited (shoe found in grotto) is now known to be 100% false.

2) There's no evidence of taunting. None.

3) The only thing we can surmise based on what's happened is that officials at the SF Zoo have lied, repeatedly and without remorse or compunction. They lied about the size of the wall. They lied about the circumstantial evidence located inside the grotto. They've lied, lied, and lied some more.

I really wouldn't be surprised if it turns out the tiger got out through a door left open by a zoo staffer, preparing to feed the tigers at closing time (as is normal), but I won't go around pretending that is exactly what happened in the absence of evidence - as everyone else seems to be doing about the poor kids who were mauled by the tiger.

[Maddy McCall]

227. Obviously you don't know what a Darwin Award is.

As for your No. 2, we'll see what the shoeprint shows. Right now, that's the most important evidence--we have to wait to see whether or not it belonged to one of those kids. If so, then it shows that at least one of them crossed the visitor barrier--a barrier that was moved to keep visitors a greater distance away from the enclosure than had been when the caretaker was attacked.

The zoo passed AZA inspection three years ago, with no recommendations that the tiger enclosure be improved or altered.

More will be known, as more info and evidence surfaces.

[question everything]

165. And now the other two do not cooperate with police

are described as being "belligerent."

Wonder why.

Such a waste of a beautiful animal.

[Maddy McCall]

229. Tatiana as a cub...

in Denver, before she was shipped to SF to become a breeder cat.



So sad to me...on the one hand, captive breeding ensures the perpetuation of the species. On the other hand, these majestic animals should never be held captive, where they can't fully exercise their instincts.

You can see in this photo that she's scared, startled, being handled by humans. It is such a waste, as you said.

There has to be better solution. :(

[question everything]

309. Thank you for the photo

what a beautiful creature she was.

And I have been thinking the same thing. Today we do not keep animals in cages in a zoo, the way they used to when I was a child, but even in an "open space" whenever I see a tiger, mostly, just running back and forth I feel a twinge.

I agree with you. Capturing them preserve them from hunters who hunt them for one specific organ, or from diseases. But keeping them captive, why shouldn't they lash at humans? This is their nature.

[GA_ArmyVet]

265. No, he should get an award

No, that makes him Darwin Award Candidate

[KitchenWitch]

293. Maddy, as ever, you are a voice of reason!

:thumbsup:

[Vincardog]

2. That is the point, the cat could not have escaped by itself. Some dump fuck evidently

climbed the fence and stuck their leg over to give the cat something to grab onto and pull itself to freedom.

[angstlessk]

7. then, of course there is this....from LBN

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x3116310

Wall should have been a minimum of 16'...only 12.5' not good for SF Zoo!

[LisaL]

9. Well, sorry.

When the foot dangling idea was reported, it didn't make sense to me.
If someone was dangling a foot, and a tiger latched onto it, then the laws of physics would suggest the person should have been pulled down into the enclosure, rather than tiger being pulled up into the outside.
As it turns out, there was no shoe found inside the grotto, the wall was shorter than recommended, and the tiger had concrete on her back paws, suggesting she used those feet to climb out. I sincerely doubt a boy could have pulled a tiger out of the enclosure if a tiger latched to his foot.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/12/27/MNFFU5G80.DTL&tsp=1

[Kingshakabobo]

119. I'm not taking a position on whether it DID, in fact, happen that way.....BUT......

....I could envision a scenario where the kid could have put a leg in and the cat used it as a prop to get out.

Once the cat had a hold of the leg it could claw its way up like climbing a tree. 300 pounds wouldn't be THAT much to support if the kid had a death grip on the railing. What choice would the kid have? Let go and get pulled in? Or hang on using a death grip (with two arms and perhaps his other leg) and have the cat climb over him? 300 pounds isn't a lot of weight when all you have to do is hang on - in other words, not lift 300 pounds. Also, it would happen VERY fast.

Like I said, I'm not taking that position based on any evidence or lack of evidence as I haven't seen the latest.......but it WAS a scenario that ran through my head when I first heard the story.

[ecstatic]

15. a 300 lb cat can't use human legs to get up the wall

:shrug: Or am I missing something? Frankly, the zoo should be shut down and the managers should be prosecuted.

[dysfunctional press]

34. and where do you get that "fact" from?

do you have something to back up that assertion, vis-a-vis using a leg to climb out?

human legs support a lot of 300 lb people...why couldn't they support a 300 lb. tiger?

[Double T]

3. I believe human(s) were involved in the tiger's escape resulting in her demise.

[lse7581011]

8. I Agree! n/t

[MzNov]

6. It's not BS at all.

It is still an investigation. But evidence is starting to indicate that the tiger MAY have been provoked. Any death by wild animal is a lot more than unfortunate, but there are reasons that many rules are posted in zoos not to go near or provoke.

[atre]

124. Based on current evidence, it is BS.

You say evidence is starting to indicating that the tiger may have been provoked. What evidence would that be?

[tularetom]

11. Actually there's no way the tiger should have been in the fucking ZOO

in the first place.

And if the kid was doing something to tease or taunt the tiger then he fucking got what he deserved.

Maybe the next asshole who contemplates doing something that stupid will think twice. But probably not.

[AlGore-08.com]

21. Siberian Tigers are extremely rare - the fact that they're in zoos is contributing to their survival

eom

[Raine]

41. Band-aid on a gaping wound

if their habitat wasn't being distroyed by man they wouldn't have reason or excuse to lock them up in zoos.

[earth mom]

48. You can't control all the people who are hunting those tigers.

Those tigers live in areas of extreme poverty and they are hunted for that very reason.

So the tigers have to be taken out of harms way and put in zoos or sanctuaries.

My family and I are big animal lovers and we feel sad to see such beautiful wild animals caged up, but we also know that they would soon be extinct if they weren't.


As the saying goes...Damned if you do and damned if you don't.

[backscatter712]

203. What are you smoking?!

You have a better place to put them?

I'd like to see them survive in the wild, but their habitat is diminishing. Zoos are plan B.

[Ezlivin]

12. To be fair, they were wearing meat suits

[HughMoran]

298. lmao

Bad, very bad :rofl:

[Richard Steele]

13. Sorry, but the evidence points in that direction.

In point of fact, there WAS NOT any way that
the tiger could "escape in the first place".

After PROVOKING the cat into a fury, one of the
three so-called "victims" CREATED the tiger's
escape route by offering his leg as a makeshift
climbing device.

The tiger used the proffered leg to scale a wall
which was specifically designed to be UNSCALABLE
by tigers.


We all do stupid shit when we're young. MOST of us survive
to tell the tale.

But "most" is not the same as "all".

[LisaL]

20. Seriously.

The idea that the foot was used to get the tiger out sounded ludicrous to me from the start.
If the tiger got the boy by the foot, the tiger would have most likely dragged the boy into the enclosure. Not the other way around.
Ever heard of gravity?

[Richard Steele]

31. Yes I have. Have you ever heard of MOMENTUM?

Not to mention that the kid's body was braced in place
by the secondary fencing that he stuck his leg through.

The tiger didn't hang on and climb his leg like a ladder;
the leg just provided a temporary grip that gave it a split-second
to redirect the force of it's leap.

You ever seen a film of mountain goats bouncing from side to side
down a narrow ravine?
They don't STAND on ledges an inch wide, they just use them to
redirect the direction of their constant downward motion.

This incident would have been like that, only in reverse.
The leg just gave the tiger a platform to translate its forward
momentum 90 degrees upward, and thereby scale the last 3 feet of
wall that it would otherwise have slidden down.

[LisaL]

39. I am going to repeat this again.

It was originally claimed that the shoe was found in the enclosure.
Turns out it was not found in the enclosure.
So, what would be the basis for the idea that the tiger could have gotten out using a dangled foot?

[Richard Steele]

49. The phrase "repeat again" is redundant; as such, a sign of sloppy thinking.

If you have a better hypothesis to explain the tiger's escape
from an enclosure that no tiger had ever escaped previously,
please share it with the group.

If not, you might consider NOT dismissing the best ideas of
those folks who actually know more about the situation than
you or I do.

I'm just sayin.

[LisaL]

51. The tiger had concrete on her back paws.

The wall was 12.5 feet tall, which is shorter than recommended.
It would appear to me that the tiger could have climbed out.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/12/27/MNFFU5G80.DTL&tsp=1

[Richard Steele]

60. Clearly, the tiger DID climb out. That fact is not in dispute.

But the fact that she climbed out at a moment
when someone had climbed over the first fence
seems unlikely to be just a random coincidence.

Especially when no other tiger had ever climbed out
of that particular enclosure before.

[yardwork]

283. I thought that the tiger is supposed to have jumped over the wall.

Cats can't climb walls without assistance. They can leap walls all by themselves.

Either this tiger leaped the wall - which some experts are now saying is possible, given that the wall was lower than first reported - or the tiger climbed over by grabbing onto something else.

[uppityperson]

62. So why did the tiger climb out right then?

I agree, the tiger could've clambered out. But why?

[yardwork]

197. Woa. If there is concrete on the back paws of the tiger, maybe it did climb out. How?

A tiger is not Spiderman. It can't scale a wall. Nor do tigers have little sticky feet like frogs and flies. Tigers have claws and smooth furry feet. No way a tiger can climb a wall unless it is given something to climb.

If the tiger climbed out of its enclosure, it definitely had help.

[Maddy McCall]

217. Here's what Jack Hanna said...

The "help" may have been taunting.

“Before I said it was impossible, that’s what I’ve said for the last two days,” Jack Hanna, a former director of the Columbus Zoo and regular television commentator, said last night. “But today, I don’t know if I’d use the word impossible.

“I think it could be feasible for a cat that has been taunted or angered,” Mr Hanna added. “I don’t think it would ever just do it to do it. Somebody had to have provoked it.”

Police, who have declared the big-cat exhibit a crime scene, are investigating the possibility that someone may have taunted the animal.

Police Chief Heather Fong said a shoeprint was found on the railing of the fence surrounding the enclosure and that it was being checked against the shoes of the three victims.

I think it's been determined that the cat climbed out of the enclosure. After the caretaker was attacked previously, the zoo increased the distance between visitors and the tiger enclosure, presumably by moving the barrier back. But if, IF, those boys disregarded the barrier and one climbed over it to taunt the tiger, well, it would appear that all bets are off.

At one of the zoos in our state, the only thing that keeps the visitors away from the tigers is a chain-link fence enclosure, with a three-foot space and another chain link fence. It's time for zoos to reevaluate how these beautiful animals are held captive. It's heartbreaking--for the families and for the animals--no matter which angle one supports. :(

I hope that soon the police will divulge whether or not the shoeprint matches the shoes of any of the victims. A lot of questions will be answered by that bit of info.


Edit to add link: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article3104062.ece

[LisaL]

269. I think you are confusing as to what the zoo did.

The keeper, as I understand it, was attacked at the feeding house, not in the enclosure. I don't think zoo moved any distances between visitors and the tiger in the enclosure. I think the zoo upgraded the house where public feedings are held. In my understanding, it's a different facility.

[atre]

123. What is your hypothesis for...

Mike Powell breaking the world record for long jumps in 1991 in Tokyo? Did he latch onto someone's leg to accomplish the record?

The fact that something had never happened before is NOT evidence that it is wasn't possible for it to have happened. It really is not an impossible for a never-before-occurrence to happen.

Got it?

[ileus]

57. Not if you have two other kids pulling on his arms.

in the other direction....a tiger wouldn't need but one claw and big moe behind him if he managed to get that high up in the first place.

When I heard the victims were three young boys, my first thought was they'd done something they shouldn't have.

[LisaL]

82. What exactly would be the basis for the idea that there was foot

dangling?
The claim was made at first that the shoe was found inside the enclosure.
Now it's reported no shoe was found inside the enclosure.
So, where is the evidence anybody dangled a foot?

[AlGore-08.com]

95. It was all over the news. From the AP article: "Zoo Director Says Tiger Wall Was Low"

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gEclFYG2_eqGTpkeD4OknwUlgqEgD8TQ3J3G0

(snip)

The San Francisco Chronicle, citing anonymous sources, reported Thursday that police are looking into the possibility that the victims had taunted the tiger and dangled a leg or other body part over the edge of the moat. The newspaper said police had found a shoe and blood inside the enclosure.

But at an afternoon news conference, Police Chief Heather Fong said police had no information that anyone had put a leg over the railing, and she said no shoe was found in the animal's enclosure. She did not address whether the victims had teased the tiger.

(more... )

Early on the news had been reporting that the police were investigating the possibility that one of the victims had dangled his leg (or another part of his body) into the tiger area. The AP article above seems to imply that the cops have since ruled out the "dangling leg" theory but may not have figured out whether the tiger was taunted prior to it's escape.

[Midlodemocrat]

125. Have you even listened to or read the reports of what is thought to have happened?

If one of these daft morans dangled a body part anywhere near this tiger, that is all that would have been necessary for the animal to grab hold and propel itself upwards and over the wall.

[atre]

121. There's actually no evidence whatsoever for your theory

Read the papers, man.

[Mojambo]

14. Bunch of tiger teases. They had it coming! n/t

[Raine]

16. If the "victim" taunted and harrassed

the tiger and put theselves where they didn't belong then they hold some responsibility. I'm waiting till the investigation is done before concluding who has been victimized. At this point I think the tiger and those attacked were victims of the zoo because they didn't have things secured properly and the tiger in a place safe from idiots harrassing it.

[Lorien]

44. A determined idiot can cause themselves a lot of trouble around wild

animals. I really don't know how the animal could have escaped without some kind of help. Wild cats that are kept in small enclosures like that tend to get flabby pretty fast and wouldn't be able to make a huge leap on their own. Hard to say. But it wouldn't be the first time a person was attacked at a zoo while trying to get a closer look at a big cat:

Eric River, age 11, was attacked by a snow leopard at the Rosamond Gifford Zoo in Syracuse, NY, and his family now wants to sue Onondaga County for failing to adequately protect the child. River and his friends snuck into the zoo after it had closed for the night and attempted to feed and pet the leopard. The leopard reached through the cage, scratching River on his neck and arm, causing injuries that required 500 stitches. River’s mother, Terry Wells, believes that despite:

* two 8-foot high fences,
* barbed wire,
* posted signs,
* 4-foot high fence around the leopard’s cage,
* mesh wire surrounding the cage, and
* 24-hour security monitoring,

there are "twenty-two ways in which the county failed to ensure safety at the zoo." All 22 are included in her filing notice of claim preserving her right to sue the government agency in court at a later date.

—Source: The Post-Standard (Syracuse, NY)

http://www.cfif.org/htdocs/legal_issues/legal_updates/jesters_courtroom/tales_05.html

[Hoof Hearted]

61. The mother in that story couldn't *possibly* be to blame could she?

for, I dunno -

*not knowing where her 11 year-old little boy was or keeping better track of him?
*not screening his friends better?
*not instilling upon him that breaking into places are wrong?
*not teaching him to respect wild animals?


I'm sure I could come up with 22 ways she FAILED her son.

Same way with the bozos in this story if they did indeed taunt the cat, which I believe they did.

I feel very sorry for the cat, and somewhat sorry for the boys families, but it looks like they were asking for it.

[Lorien]

107. I've worked a bit with wild cats and even owned a serval hybrid for a while

they can indeed be unpredictable, but I also believe that the tiger was provoked or saw an opportunity that was too good to miss. I've always been very cautious around big cats. below are photos of my mom and I teaching a tiger to lie down on command. There's NO WAY I'd get near her without a strong fence between us (and I'm still in a position where I can move away quickly if she tries to squeeze her paw through the fence). Note how flabby the cat is in the third photo. Wild cats kept in captivity-even in large enclosures with loads of toys, friends, and a lake, as this one is-still lose muscle tone very quickly unless they are performing animals. That's one of the reasons I doubt that the tiger in SF was able to jump the fence unassisted in any way. It's possible, but not all that probable, imho.

[Hoof Hearted]

110. Geez. I thought my cat was fat, LOL.

How nice that you and your mom are able to work together and help tigers at the same time. :)

[riverdeep]

139. The first instinct people have is to sue.

Not, 'man, I did a stupid thing by not knowing where my kid was and my kid did an even stupider thing by going into a zoo at night', but that the zoo is negligent for not protecting us from our own negligence. A century ago this kid wouldn't have made it to adulthood, banished from the gene pool from stupidity. Now, he'll be rich.

[AngryAmish]

151. Do you realize that is from an insurance industry website?

The purpose of places like that are part of a public relations campaign to make everyone think people sue all the time.

One should be suspicious of such partisan sources.

[riverdeep]

200. Actually, I didn't look at it.

But when I clicked on it, it definitely set off red flags. Namely an eagle on prominent display. At this point, anything that has an eagle is probably run by people who are either mindlessly patriotic, or attempting to fool those that are. It also has something about a luncheon coming up 'without politically correct tofu and sprouts', code for stupid liberals. Couldn't find anything about insurance, but apparently it started life as a front for tobacco.

The Post Standard charges a fee for it's archives, so I'm going to assume the basic facts of the story are true. The family is still out of line asking for money.

[RamboLiberal]

17. I'm betting these young guys did taunt the tiger

But as I also just posted on LBN looks like a wall shorter than specified contributed.

But I've also been betting all along knowing that young men can act like "jackasses" like the movie that these young guys with it being near dark in the zoo and with no one observing them may have been throwing things at the tiger and/or beyond the viewer's fence taunting the tiger. A pissed off tiger might have surprised them by coming over the too short wall.

IMHO if everything had been as specified at the zoo and these guys provoked the tiger I'd have said they don't deserve any compensation, but now that the wall is shown to probably be too short, then I think the zoo is going to end up paying out some $$$$$$$s.

[AlGore-08.com]

18. Every zoo I've ever been to has been jammed full of signs saying "Stay out of the exhibits!"

"Don't climb over the wall!" "Don't try to touch the animals, they'll bite you!" and similar "Duh!" messages.

We don't know yet if these young men really did try to climb into the tiger's area, but it doesn't take too many brain cells to know you shouldn't climb into a exhibit full of tigers at the zoo.

The zoo would be liable if they hadn't provided the "Duh!" signage, or if the fence around the tiger area was defective, or if the zoo left equipment lying around that the tiger used as a ladder to leave the exhibit. If the wall really was too low, the Zoo will probably be held liable in court

[havocmom]

81. And despite those, I saw two men holding a kid up to reach down into an exhibit with 3 tigers

in Tucson's Reid Park Zoo. Mother tiger and two nearly adult sized offspring. The latter being very robust, active and CURIOUS young tigers could easily have rendered the kid into lunch meat had some of us not made a huge fuss that alerted zoo staff.

The walls in that enclosure are over 18 feet, but the two imbecile dads were climbing up on steel fencing (inside the 6 foot barrier zone beyond the fence for people, had climbed up on the imitation rocks that made the outside of the wall and were hoisting a kid up above them.

Those two 'grown men' were laughing at how cool it was gonna be. I could have ripped their throats out myself. Lord only knows what that mama tiger was planning as she silently watched the fools.

The men and the rest of their party tried to raise hell and demand their 'rights' when security was trying to toss their asses from the premises. Such a sense of entitlement and outrage! They were victims of 'the man' because they were stopped from using a child as bait for a trio of tigers. And yes, those were Siberians tigers too. Big animals. Strong animals.

Personally, I feel we may have gone too far in making the world safe for humans. Too many idiots who would have been culled before reaching puberty are living to breeding age. Yeah, harsh, but damn, when the fools are so thick....

[AlGore-08.com]

88. Wow... that poor kid, being raised by such obnoxious morons.

eom

[Hoof Hearted]

99. we may have gone too far in making the world safe for humans - those are the wisest words I've read

all day. Thanks Havocmom. I wish I could recommend your reply.

[soothsayer]

19. Why else are boys that age at the zoo, if not to annoy animals?

sad all the way around tho

[RamboLiberal]

23. Yeah I've felt that way from the first

That age as a group are not the usual zoo visitor. Being Xmas day and with most other attractions except movies being closed it could explain why they were at the zoo.

[EFerrari]

43. Teenagers do stupid things.

They don't deserve to die for that or I'd be dead 25 times by now.

The zoo management is accruing a history of stupidity. Animals AND visitors are in their care. They don't seem to be able to handle that responsibility.

[earth mom]

55. To say those kids have no fault here if they taunted those cats is just silly.

If they were taunting that cat, then they were looking for an adrenalin rush and that's not the zoos fault.

And as I posted up thread, the line between reality & fantasy has become blurred and those kids didn't have a clue of the danger they were facing.

But again, that is NOT the zoos fault.


Now if the enclosure wasn't high enough, well, that is a different story.

[EFerrari]

67. I'm not sure what you're responding to.

I didn't say the kids didn't bear responsibilty.

[earth mom]

76. That's what it sounded like to me.

:shrug:

[Hoof Hearted]

65. Visitors must be held responsible for some of their own care or zoos will only

be able to show us movies of animals.

If they were taunting and committed acts that got themselves killed then they literally worked for and earned their own deaths. Yes teens do dumb things. Sometimes they die in the process. I lost a nephew to his own stupidity and it was devastating and hard to go through but I'd never once thought to try to shift the blame anywhere other than where it belonged, with him.

[EFerrari]

70. I hope you feel better knowing your nephew paid for his stupidity.

Holy cow. :wow:

[Hoof Hearted]

89. Thanks for your mockery. Losing a loved one is a devastating event that can only be made worse with

the knowledge that your loved one caused their own demise through their own actions and their own decisions. Our loss was compounded by the fact that my nephews actions caused the death of another very young man as well.

Blaming others might be the first, human, reaction but it's also the weak-minded and immature one.

[ecstatic]

75. So when visiting the zoo, peoples' lives are in the hands of the dumbest visitor

as opposed to zoo management? That's good to know. :sarcasm:

[LisaL]

79. Exactly.

What if somebody did taunt the tiger, the tiger then gets out, and goes after some mother with her little kiddies, that had nothing to do with the taunting?
It's obvious to me the zoo has to make sure the tigers can not get out of their enclosures.

[Hoof Hearted]

93. Your life is ALWAYS at the mercy of the lowest common denominator and chance. On the highway,

at your job, in the mall, on the plane, etc.

Did you ever believe otherwise?

Do you blame the highway for the drunk driver? No.

[AlGore-08.com]

101. A more accurate metaphor would involve the construction/maintenance of the road

If the highway was on the very edge of a cliff, and had guard rails and signage warning me to drive 15 MPM, I would not blame the highway if some moron driving the opposite direction lost control of his car and drove 100 MPM straight into my car and carried us both over the cliff. (I would blame the driver of the other car.)

But if the other driver is driving 35 miles and hour and hits a huge pot hole that causes him to smash into my car and carry us both over the cliff - - the highway and the other driver are both to blame.

[Hoof Hearted]

102. No that's a spectacularly weak and poor analogy. Perhaps you can figure out why?

I will let you think on it for a while, if you get stuck, I'll come back and help you.

[EFerrari]

191. Bingo. n/t

[Withywindle]

146. Nobody *deserves* to die for driving drunk either.

But it happens all the time - and people, quite reasonably, tend to sympathize more with their innocent victims than with the person whose recklessness caused whatever tragedy happened.

[earth mom]

52. I was thinking the same thing. Wonder if they were filming it for youtube?

Shudder to think of it. :(

[LisaL]

54. Well, if they were filming it for you tube, then the officials would

have had the tape to see what happened.
I've seen no indication any tapes were found.
Dah.

[earth mom]

56. I was just speculating, but you have to admit that people are doing crazy things these days

for the adrenalin rush and for youtube.

UGH.

[nadine_mn]

114. really ...you would expect to find tapes???? in 2007???

More likely than not if they were putting it on video it would be with a cell phone or something
Here in MN we had some idiots behead a girl's dog, they took video with their cell phone and sent to people, thats how they were caught.
An investigation (which is still pending) will bear that out
dah

[caligirl]

25. Wong changed that part about the shoe in the grotto today.

from this:minimal evidence found at the scene included a shoe and blood in the 25-foot-wide moat

to this: On Wednesday, sources had said that authorities found a shoe and blood on the grass inside the tiger enclosure; today, Police Chief Heather Fong said there was no shoe found in the grotto. A shoe was discovered near where the third victim was attacked, she said, and a shoeprint was also found on the railing of the waist-high fence surrounding the grotto.

"We have all three pairs of shoes from the victims, and now we will see if any of them matches the footprint (on the fence)," she said.

Police have consistently downplayed the idea that the victims may have taunted the tiger, even though Mollinedo told The Chronicle on Wednesday that it was likely that the animal was provoked, noting that "a couple of feet dangling over the edge could possibly have done it." Today, he denied making that statement. http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/12/27/MNFFU5G80.DTL&tsp=1

[uppityperson]

27. 12.5 foot wall, tiger could get out if it really wanted to.

May have been provoked, but the wall was too short.

[EFerrari]

46. That measurement is sort of wacky because there was a wall

a moat AND a fence.

It looks like the zoo thought they were going above and beyond the reccomendations AND as though they weren't keeping track of 1) visitors interactions with the animals and 2) the animals learning to outsmart their barriers.

I used to love that zoo. My cousins and I spent many happy hours there.

[LisaL]

47. The zoo officials themselves had gone out now and

measured their wall, because all kinds of different numbers were given as to how tall the wall actually is.
It's their own measurements that indicates the wall was only 12.5 feet tall, and thus shorter than recommended.
I don't see what's wacky about it.
"In measuring the area, Mollinedo said, his staff found that contrary to information they had on file in their office, the moat wall was 12 1/2 feet high - about four feet lower than is recommended as a national standard by cat experts."
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/12/27/MNFFU5G80.DTL&tsp=1

[EFerrari]

50. Here:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/12/27/MN39U4TQ5.DTL

[LisaL]

53. What's your point?

There were all kinds of different numbers given as to how tall the wall actually is.
The zoo personnel went out and measured it.
Turns out it was shorter in reality than the numbers the zoo had on file, only 12.5 feet.

"In measuring the area, Mollinedo said, his staff found that contrary to information they had on file in their office, the moat wall was 12 1/2 feet high - about four feet lower than is recommended as a national standard by cat experts."
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/12/27/MNFFU5G80.DTL&tsp=1

[EFerrari]

66. The height of the wall isn't the only variable

and at this point, I'm not trusting Mollinedo with sh!t.

That's my point.

[LisaL]

74. The height of the wall appears to be very important

to me, considering that's what the tiger would have to either climb or jump over to get out.
I am just surprised the zoo had not figured out the wall was too short up until now, considering that very same tiger mauled a keeper, and the zoo supposedly tried to make the exhibit safer.

[REP]

36. .

(Stupid Edge!)

[REP]

37. The tiger was the victim

Tigers are endangered. There's a surplus of humans, especially stupid ones.

[ecstatic]

45. The tiger and the teens were victims of the zoo management's reckless

incompetence. A tragedy all the way around, but there is NO F'KING WAY the zoo should be let off the hook with this ridiculous "blame the victims" crap.

[EFerrari]

73. They waited all of a day to do that.

It's obscene.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

84. Yes, you are right.

Zoo security should have tasered the bastards for taunting the tiger. Not only would they be alive while still being hailed as "innocent victims", but I'm sure gotten a shitload of dough too. :sarcasm:

[karlrschneider]

100. You're right, they should just fucking STUFF all those animules before letting humans in to see them

:eyes:

[treestar]

59. It's just a theory

Contributory negligence exists. The world is not this black and white. It's OK. :donut:

[ChazII]

68. Call me misguided but

my sympathy is with the tiger.

[lse7581011]

80. Mine Too!

the poor animal was kept in captivity for the enjoyment of humans! If she had been left in the wild she'd probably still be alive!

[Liberal Veteran]

87. I feel bad that the tiger was put to death for being a tiger.

I also feel bad for the person who happened to get (or put himself if that's the case) in the way of the tiger doing what tigers do.

There are no winners in this.

[Hoof Hearted]

103. I love your kitty pics, LV.

Just had to say that.

This is my Mr. Buddy.

[Liberal Veteran]

104. Thank you and your kitty is a cutie.

I still need to add Grendel to my kitty pics. He's been with me a couple of months, but is still very shy in some ways.

[truebrit71]

179. That's pretty messed up...for the tiger...

..the Darwin nominee's got what they deserved...

[truebrit71]

180. Edit: Dupe

..

[Midlodemocrat]

126. Well, given the extinction rate of Siberian tigers, I don't know about that.

But this animal should never have been killed.

[Raine]

92. Mine too

and especially if it was being taunted and harrassed and just did what a tiger does, then is executed for it. :-( Men with the power always seem to kill first and ask questions later. x(

[Hoof Hearted]

94. As is mine. n/t.

[ellie]

109. Mine too

He/she was just being a tiger. What did these people think was going to happen?

[atre]

127. misguided isn't a strong enough word

a kid is dead. two others are seriously wounded.

[truebrit71]

181. Um...not really...a STUPID kid is dead and two other STUPID kids are seriously wounded..

...the only entity acting naturally was executed...

How's that for putting it in perspective..?

[atre]

261. There's no evidence these kids were to blame, first of all

Second, I really don't feel terribly sorry for the death of an animal that lacked the cognitive understanding to be guided by anything other than pure instinct. Siberian tigers are among the world's most beautiful creatures, but they are not intelligent. If you did a poll, I think you'd find most people would agree with me that the death of a 17-year old kid is far more tragic than the death of an animal.

Tatiana had millions of years of evolution-driven killer instinct guiding her... to kill. If she was still in the wild, she would have been subject to other forces of nature that could have very well brutally killed her. As it stands, death by bullet would be a lot more humane than what she could have suffered in the wild.

[Didereaux]

78. 1st WAIT for all the facts...2d if the victim was doing something...

that provoked or aided the act, then they should have been rat food long ago. That enclosure has housed the tigers for years. So turn off the I-must-empathize-with-everything hormone for awhile and wait for the facts. Since the US government is not involved there is a strong likelyhood that the truth will be known, especially considering there were a couple of survivors who may have seen the whole thing.

[pitohui]

86. this story went thru more changes than david bowie

but now the zoo director has admitted that the walls of the enclosure were NOT as high as claimed

the fault is the zoo's and i think they are screwn

sorry for the tiger and sorry for the kid, what an eff-up

[karlrschneider]

91. You're being ridiculous.

But I think you know that by now.

[hedgehog]

96. I'm usually against surveillance cameras, but th average dollar

store has more people watching the customers than the Zoo!

[Blue-Jay]

97. I hate it when tigers act like dangerous animals.

Certainly, there's a problem regarding the construction/design of the enclosure. That's a given.

Then again, perhaps it's a bad idea to taunt a tiger. Those of you who own cats know that they'll figure out a way to fuck you over if you piss them off.

[atre]

118. Evidence of taunting? Nonexistent.

nm

[Blue-Jay]

128. Please share your information.

nm
eom
b&d
gbtw
rofl

[atre]

131. You claim there is evidence. I claim there is not.

The only way to settle this dispute would be for you to pony up.

[Blue-Jay]

134. I claimed nothing of the sort, Ponyboy.

I stated that it is a bad idea to taunt a tiger. I can't imagine that statement being false.

[BuelahWitch]

129. Here is evidence

"The report also said "pinecones and sticks that were found in the moat might have been thrown at the animal. Those items could not have landed in the grotto naturally," according to the sources."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20071228/ts_alt_afp/usanimals_071228014403

[atre]

135. Read your article more closely

You do realize that the same unnamed zoo official being quoted as saying that pinecones and sticks were in the grotto is the same person who said that there was blood and a shoe inside the grotto - which is now discredited? Try this:

"At a news conference this morning at the zoo, officials said there was no shoe found in the enclosure. On Wednesday, unnamed sources had said that authorities found a shoe and blood on the grass inside the enclosure; today, Police Chief Heather Fong said there was no shoe found in the grotto."

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/345126_sfwall28.html?source=mypi

In any event, if there were pinecones and sticks inside the grotto, there's nothing which ties those pinecones or sticks to these kids. And contrary to what that unnamed zoo official says, pinecones and sticks could very well have arrived inside the grotto naturally. Some light wind or rain could easily accomplish the feat. That's just patently absurd to suggest otherwise. Unless this grotto is unlike that of my nearest zoo, those acouterments would be a part of the artificial environment inside the grotto.

I think what we're seeing here is a lot of DUers are falling victim to an aggressive PR campaign by officials concerned for their jobs at the zoo.

[MiniMe]

98. The moat around the grotto is supposed to prevent a big cat from taking

a big enough leap to escape. You can't push off from water. Also, the wall was not as high as it should have been. Even if the teens were doing stupid things, the tiger shouldn't have been able to escape the enclosure. With dangerous animals, you should figure that people will do the stupidest thing that you can think of, and some that are stupider when designing the enclosure.

I don't blame the kid, kids do stupid things. And they don't know if the kid was dangling his foot or not. I don't blame the tiger, the tiger was being a tiger. We have to find out how the tiger escaped before we can come up with somebody to blame.

[LisaL]

108. The moat had no water.

So it really wouldn't matter how wide the moat was, because there was no water in it.

[MiniMe]

111. OK, that is just dumb that the moat had no water

The moat is there for 2 reasons that I can think of. First, to provide an additional barrier, you can't push off water. Second, to provide some stimulation in the environment. To not have water in the moat is negligence as far as I am concerned.

[ladjf]

105. The wall was only 12'. The moat contained no water.

The tiger could have run across the dry moat and jumped the 12' wall. She was a young, 300lb cat.

[minnesota_liberal]

112. The victims: three friends, all male and under 24, in a zoo after closing time

The enclosure: Whatever its dimensions, had zero previous escapes since it was constructed in 1940.

Yeah, it's tragic 'n all that someone was killed, but instead of assuming that the tiger in question happened upon a way out that had existed for more than 60 years, why not think a little and consider a more likely scenario?

The zoo was closed. Signs were posted and announcements made to inform visitors of the closing time. Unless they have hearing or language problems, people who don't follow the rules might forseably ignore safety guidelines and challenge authority.

Young men of that age commonly do stupid things, especially when in the company of others their age.

If tigers hadn't escaped from that display in the many years since it was built, it makes sense to look for conditions that may have existed today that didn't previously exist. Are today's tigers larger or stronger than they used to be? Has the pull of gravity diminished? Were there any people in the vicinity who might have done something stupid?

Gee, let me think.

If the victim or one of his friends had dangled a leg over the fence, it would have effectively made the wall almost 3 feet shorter and given the tiger something far more grippy than the actual wall surface.

Of course, I'm assuming that the tiger had claws and the leg-dangler was not a midget.

[atre]

117. I strongly disagree with your premises and your conclusion

Given weight distribution, if that tiger had latched onto the kid's leg to get himself over the wall, the kid's leg would've probably been in the grotto. It wasn't. Without question - there would have been blood on the wall or in the grotto. There wasn't. That really is a ridiculous and absurd attempt to shift blame.

"Kids that age do dumb things" really doesn't constitute evidence. It's just prejudice. The fact that no previous tiger had leapt the wall also doesn't really constitute evidence - since they haven't long been housing this particular type of tiger. In any event, just like there are humans that are abnormally strong or fast compared to other members of the species, the same may (heck... is) true of the animal kingdom.

I'm really not sure what prejudice is at play here: anti-hispanic, anti-youth, or just pro-animal... but regardless, it is seriously clouding the judgment of a good many otherwise decent people here.

[ecstatic]

150. I strongly agree with you here

The bias is mind boggling to me, but I strongly suspect that it is based on exactly what you mentioned in your post. I happened to check the responses of people from other sites and the ethnicity of the teens was brought up a lot, in a derogatory way of course.

[minnesota_liberal]

307. You're probably right about the victim(s) not having given the tiger a "leg up"

Now that I've seen photos and graphics of the exhibit, I think such a stunt would've resulted in the the leg or - more likely, the entire person - being hauled into the grotto.

Given the size of the tiger in question and if the animal were motivated, I believe it could have jumped or slid down into the "moat" and then jumped high enough to get its front paws on the top of the wall.

That said, I still believe one or more of the victims got too close to the tiger and either agitated it by taunting or awakened its natural hunting response simply by proximity.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

130. "...had zero previous escapes since it was constructed in 1940."

Thank you for bringing that up. That is my hometown zoo, I have been going there since I was a toddler. The big cat enclosures have worked just fine the 40+ years I have been going to that zoo. Not one problem.

This is not about the enclosures -- this is about something or someone that made that cat act in a way that no other cat has in 64 years of operation.

[LisaL]

136. That same cat mauled a keeper a year ago.

[minnesota_liberal]

138. A keeper who stuck an arm under the fence, several feet from the tiger

Funny how wild, carnivorous animals sometimes act like ... wild, carnivorous animals.

[LisaL]

144. Which, presumably, is why the enclosures should be such

that the "wild, carnivorous animal" can not escape out of them.

[minnesota_liberal]

148. In that case, the animal did NOT escape

The situation you cited is completely different from this one. Yet, when I countered it, you still tried using it as evidence that the fence was inadequate in the matter at hand. Wow!

[LisaL]

167. Yea, the animal did not escape. But the zoo was fined, it

had to spend a lot of money on safety upgrade for the feeding facility, and the keeper was pretty seriously injured in the process.

[minnesota_liberal]

305. And your point is...

I'll understand if you don't present a reasoned, logical, airtight argument. Nobody can do that and still make 50 posts in the same thread.

[BoneDaddy]

113. And you are sure of this, how?

Why do you take offense to a situation that might very well have occurred due to the risk taking or misjudgement of the victim? I think the case is up in the air but it seems a possibility that the victim provoked the cat or may have been negligent. You may be right as well, but what I do not get is the overreaction or calls for a "cover up". We might find out we may not.

[LisaL]

122. I don't think it matters what the victims were doing or not doing.

It seems to me the zoo going to be in big trouble over this because the tigers shouldn't be able to escape out of their enclosures.
Police also say there is no evidence the victims dangled their feet into the enclosure. This idea never made much sense to me, because if the tiger grabbed the victim by the foot, the victim most likely would have ended up in the enclosure, not the other way around.
And the zoo director admitted today the wall around the enclosure was shorter than recommended.
Even if the victims did something to attract the tiger's attention, I fail to see how the zoo would get off the hook.

[BuelahWitch]

133. It does matter what the "victim" was doing

If those guys were throwing things at the tiger, it was utter stupidity on their part. Seventeen is old enough to know not to mess with wild animals, and the others were older than that.

[LisaL]

137. It still doesn't mean the tiger should be able to escape the

enclosure. Once it's outside, it has the potential to kill and injure anyone who comes in contact with it. If there were any parents with children around, what exactly would stop the tiger from going after them?
So, it's stupid to suggest that if somebody was throwing something at the tiger, then it's o'key that the tiger should be able to jump out.

[BoneDaddy]

308. I tend to look at things from a level of mutual accountability

and my view does not, necessarily, be mutualy exclusive from yours. If, as it appears it might be, that the zoo was in some sort of violation regarding the height of their walls for a tiger, then I would certainly support some sort of recompense. However, if it also turns out that the individual(s) involved were taunting or hanging their legs over the tiger compound (which led to the tigers escape), they too, are accountable.

[Beausoir]

132. Meanwhile, some other REALLY important stuff happened in the world today.

But you wouldn't know about that.

[foo_bar]

141. it's a classic conundrum: "The Lady, or the Tiger?"

(source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lady,_or_the_Tiger%3F)

[bklyncowgirl]

147. That zoo is facing the mother of all lawsuits. Take everything with a grain of salt

If the wall around the tiger compound was considerably lower than the recommended height then the zoo would be at fault for not properly securing their animal. If it can be proven that the animal was somehow provoked by the victims, then maybe the zoo can shift some of the blame to them--I mean how can they be responsible if people do stupid things like teasing a tiger.

Tragic story all around for both the humans and the tiger.

[JustAnotherGen]

149. Not to be callous or anything

But the Tiger did nothing wrong.

The tiger was just being a tiger. Whether provoked or not. Tigers have the potential to do that. Hell, remember the woman in France who had a face transplant? As I understand it - her DOG did that to her.

Any animal can decide it wants to behave like an ANIMAL and go get the animal on two legs.

[LanternWaste]

152. There's a reasonable expectation...

There's a reasonable expectation of safety from the zoo, but there is also a reasonable expectation of appropriate behavior from patrons. If one or both failed to maintain appropriate safety measures and/or behavior, then I believe that measures should be taken to see that it doesn't happen again.



However, I do think that there's an onus on the general populace to behave in a manner consistently appropriate with our particular surroundings. If ("IF") the wild animal was provoked, I cannot in good conscious place all blame and responsibility on the zoo/staff, as the patrons did not engage in reasonable behavior.

Taunting a tiger (even in a zoo) is tantamount to playing with a lighter at a gas station as I see it, the only difference being in degrees.

[Wednesdays]

153. Sorry, but after reading all the responses I side with the OP

The "evidence" against the kids come from statements from the zoo, and nothing else. No proof of anything. The zoo is at fault, period.

[truebrit71]

178. If they hadn't been in the park ILLEGALLY I might agree with you...as it is..

...all bets are off...Anyone know the BAC of the "victims"?

[LisaL]

204. Whatever gave you an idea they were in the zoo illegally?

I've heard it reported the patrons have an hour to leave the zoo after closing time.
There's been nothing published that they were in the zoo illegally, as far as I know.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

155. New information...

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/12/28/MN7RU5I8P.DTL&tsp=1

"When Carlos Sousa Jr. didn't show up for Christmas dinner, his father called several of his son's friends - including the two brothers injured in the tiger attack that killed the teen.

Either Amritpal "Paul" Dhaliwal, 19, or his 23-year-old brother Kulbir Dhaliwal answered the phone and told Sousa Sr. that his son wasn't with them. In reality, the three young men were either on their way to or had already arrived at the San Francisco Zoo, where they would later be mauled by a 350-pound Siberian tiger.

...snip

A man accompanying family members outside the house later told a reporter that the family would have nothing to say until after consulting with a lawyer.

The Dhaliwal brothers have been hostile to police in the current death investigation and were "extremely belligerent" in an earlier encounter with police this year, authorities say.

After the zoo attack, authorities said, the brothers had refused to give their own names, identify the victim or initially give authorities an account of what occurred.

...snip

Both Kulbir and Paul Dhaliwal were charged Oct. 9 with misdemeanor public intoxication and resisting a police officer after they were arrested a short distance from their home while apparently chasing two men, according to court documents.

Kulbir Dhaliwal allegedly cursed officers and kicked the security partition between the back and front seats in a police car after being handcuffed in the Sept. 7 incident, the police report said."



Yup, keep on trying to convince me those kids didn't do something to seriously provoke/entice that cat into action, an action no other cat -- including Siberian tigers -- took in 67 years of operation.

[RamboLiberal]

156. Here's an interesting tidbit - different tiger but same enclosure

-----

Marian Roth Cramer is referring to her visit to the San Francisco Zoo December 31, 1996. She took her then 4 year old son Erik to the tigers in their enclosure.

"I was taking pictures and I saw the tiger leap over across his pen and cross the moat and climb up. I remember that very distinctly five or six feet away from my son, and then he slid down," said Roth Cramer.

The angle of the wall denied the tiger a good grip. When she screamed and backed away she encountered a zoo employee.

"I said o my god! Did you see that? Is he after my son or something to that effect? He said to me, he does that all the time he hates my guts. He's after me," said Roth Cramer.

http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?section=news/local&id=5858765

Video of a zookeeper from 60's saying one of the tigers got to the top of the enclosure. http://www.kron4.com/global/Category.asp?C=120583

IMHO I think a combination of things happened. The tiger was taunted by the victims and the enclosure wasn't secure enough to contain a pissed off tiger.

[LisaL]

159. So, in fact, according to that keeper, the zoo's previous tiger was

almost able to get out, and to prevent his escape, they had to feel the moat with water.
And according to the zoo visitor, there was yet another tiger trying to get out.
Of course there was no water when Tatiana escaped.

[truebrit71]

187. Why would water stop a tiger...they swim too...

..???

[LisaL]

201. Because if it's going to leap over the wall, it

needs a hard surface from which to jump. Which water is not.
Dah.

[truebrit71]

209. I suppose so...most moats I've seen at zoos don't have straight sides though...

Duh backatya :eyes:

[Maddy McCall]

238. The moat in SF never had water in it.

It wasn't built to have water in it.

Now rumors are surfacing saying that the guys had a laser pointer and were teasing the cat with it, making it chase the red dot. Don't know if there's any truth to this, though.

[LisaL]

248. The old zookeeper in the video clip was saying they did put

water in it at one time, to keep a tiger that was trying to escape from escaping. They had a big tiger there that was apparently able to almost escape the enclosure, so they put water in it while that tiger was alive.
As for the laser pointer, even if true, so what? That's how people are actually playing with domestic kitty cats. That's not animal abuse. And I doubt there are lasers that would work at that distance anyway.

[Maddy McCall]

255. Playing with a domestic cat is not the same as taunting a tiger.

My son as a 30 Mh laser pointer. Got it for Christmas--cost about $25. It shines a clearly visible dot for a mile. He has VERY strict rules on using it, and he has to wear protective goggles while using it.

Powerful laser pointers are readily available. My son's isn't even considered a powerful one. A teen (can't remember where) was recently arrested for using his to shine on helicopters and airplanes. Many can carry a beam for five miles or more.

My son is not allowed to use his around our animals because of the retinal damage laser pointers can cause. Laser pointers like the ones used in classrooms to shine at the whiteboard aren't dangerous. You can buy those for a couple of dollars. But the ones that I'm talking about (20 mh and above) are dangerous and come with explicit warnings--and are available anywhere and online for pretty cheap prices. In many US states, they are illegal to carry. Don't know if this is the case in SF.

[LisaL]

257. Well, obviously your domestic cat is not going to eat you.

But the tiger, if it's properly enclosed, shouldn't be able to eat you either.

[Maddy McCall]

262. True.

However, no matter which zoo you visit, as the point was made below--you're only as safe as the dumbest human there.

[JHB]

220. It would impede jumping up...

If the water was too deep for them to stand in they wouldn't be able to plant their feet and get the leverage they need to jump as high as they'd need to to get out.

[LisaL]

157. Well, right after the attack, they were being taken to the

hospital with multiple wounds, so maybe they didn't feel like talking just then.
:eyes:
Police chief had given multiple press conferences and she had never made a claim they were not cooperating or refusing to talk. In fact now there is a description of the attack, so it appears they have described what had happened, at least after tiger got out.
http://www.ktvu.com/news/14930388/detail.html

[ecstatic]

160. You know, I resent that their past records are being brought up

What they did in September has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that this zoo did not have the proper equipment in place to secure such a wild, dangerous animal.

[LisaL]

164. Well, that always happens.

Even when someone does something heroic, somebody seems to always try to dig up dirt. If they can't find the dirt on the person him/herself, they'd try to dig dirt on relatives.

[Maddy McCall]

171. It does, in a way.

And it shows a pattern of behavior that could have contributed to what happened with the tiger.

[Maddy McCall]

173. Also...

when the two guys refused to cooperate with police in ascertaining what happened that day, well, it leaves the police to have to investigate through other means to find the info and evidence they needed. Part of the necessary info would be the two guys' past behavior, which could show a pattern that would lead investigators to understand what happened that day--since the guys are unwilling to help investigators understand.

The truth always outs. One way or another.

[LisaL]

175. I am wondering as to why police chief has never said they

refused to cooperate during the press conferences.
And who would be those un-named authorities that claim they didn't cooperate. The article doesn't even say if those are zoo authorities or police authorities.

[Maddy McCall]

177. It is obvious from reading the SFgate article that...

the "authorities" are the police:

Thursday, police interviewed the two brothers, as well as Sousa's father. Authorities didn't release the details of the interviews but did say their investigation showed that the tiger first attacked the older brother.

If you read down further, one of the brothers not involved in the attack says that police accused the men of taunting the tiger. I'm wondering what evidence the police have to lead to that accusation.

The family is non-cooperative and said that they won't discuss this at all with police until after they hire an attorney.

Won't know the whole story until police conclude the investigation, though. I'm still interested in whose footprint was found on the fence.

[LisaL]

182. Well, it maybe obvious to you, but it's not obvious to me.

By the way, is there a particular reason as to why these authorities remain un-named in the article?
Whoever they are, presumably they should have a name and a position, such as a police officer, police chief, zoo official, etc.
When police chief gave press conferences, she had not made any claims regarding the brothers not co-operating. She had also provided no evidence of any taunting. The police are investigating the possibility, but so far there have been no actual evidence provided, only speculation.
Even that shoe print hasn't been matched to anyone yet.

[Maddy McCall]

189. Because they are speaking on condition of anonymity.

I read another article that said that hospital and police officials are speaking on condition of anonymity until the family releases the names of the victims.

That's not uncommon in sensational cases like this.

[LisaL]

192. Well, maybe I've read too many articles siting

anonymous sources close to the investigation, that turned out to be false, that I would find this one more credible if it actually named those people making these claims.

[EFerrari]

193. There appears to be a big push on here in the city

to smear these guys before anyone files a lawsuit.

No one seems very interested in what happened, but more, to CYA for the zoo management.

[LisaL]

196. Well, presumably, a lawsuit could cost city a lot of money.

The zoo director admitted the walls of the enclosure were shorter than recommended.
There is a video clip on this thread where a zoo keeper is saying there used to be a tiger in the zoo that they had to keep from escaping by having water in the moat. There was no water in the moat when Tatiana escaped.
Tatiana had previously attacked her keeper, just a year ago.
After the attack on the keeper, the zoo was fined, it had to pay a lot of money for safety upgrades, and the feeding house was closed for 10 months.
I am not a lawyer, but I think a good lawyer could do wonders with facts like that, whether boys did anything or not.

[EFerrari]

198. My poor zoo. There are a lot of wonderful people who care for animals there.

Many wonderful volunteers.

Many, many visitors like me who love the place.

This is just so sad. :(

[LisaL]

212. I don't feel sorry for the zoo.

It's hard for me to believe they haven't actually measured that that wall was up to standard up until now.

[truebrit71]

214. ...and that three possibly drunken idiots would be in the park after it closed ****ing with a Tiger.

Yeah, they REALLY should have planned for that eventuality too right?

[LisaL]

219. From what I heard on TV, the patrons have an hour to leave the zoo

after it closes.
So, in fact, they had a perfect right to be there after closing time.

[EFerrari]

237. That's right. Precisely. n/t

[EFerrari]

215. Do you remember one of the early reports?

Some expert who was instrumental in placing the cat here said her enclosure EXCEEDED the recommendations. I don't know if he was misquoted or if he's just a stupid bastard.

We don't really appreciate these animals. We don't respect them. This is the outcome of that attitude. Now, two families will always remember this on Christmas Day and that beautiful cat is dead.

[LisaL]

223. I don't think the zoo officials knew how tall the wall actually was.

Apparently, the zoo officials haven't actually measured that wall until after the tiger escaped, and the numbers the zoo had on file were different than the actual height of the wall.
Ain't that something?

[EFerrari]

232. Can you believe that?

How many grammar school classes (like mine!) went through that exhibit? :scared:

[LisaL]

235. Yea, boggles the mind.

People seem to have no problem blaming these young men, even though there is no actual evidence the men did anything to provoke the tiger, only speculations. I wonder how would the people feel if that tiger got out and killed a bunch of cute five years old?

[Maddy McCall]

239. If you'll be patient, all will come out.

As for rumors, the latest one is that the guys were taunting the tiger with a laser pointer, making her chase the red dot. It will be interesting to see if police follow up on this or not.

There are a lot of rumors going around; however, when credible newspapers cite authorities and police, at this early point in the investigation as the public is anxious for info, it's as close as they can get to factual info, and it's probably more factual than anonymous stuff that you find in tabloids and such--until the investigation is concluded.

[EFerrari]

241. Do you know where that one came from? My God.

One of my buds is working this story now for the Chron. It makes me feel better because he's good at what he does.

[Maddy McCall]

243. The laser pointer story?

Is he working the laser pointer story?

If that comes out as truth, I'll have ZERO sympathy for the victims.

[EFerrari]

244. He's working all its angles. Do you know where the laser pointer

rumor came from?

[Maddy McCall]

246. Came from the comments section of an article dated today or yesterday...

let me see if I can find it again...I'll PM it to you.

[EFerrari]

247. Thank you, Maddy. n/t

[Maddy McCall]

250. Shouldn't be too hard for the police to find out...

Indeed, if this has any truth to it, I'm sure the police already have the laser pointer. It would have to be at the scene if one was used. That would explain the footprint on the fence, too...climbing over to the edge of the enclosure to use the laser pointer. Again, IF it's true.

I hope that your friend can get to the bottom of it. I know that the police won't release info as they are working a case--but maybe with direct questions about the laser pointer, your journalist bud can get at least a smidget of info about whether this is a lead they are following or not.

So many IFs. I'm eager to hear the facts. Please update us as you hear anything.

[EFerrari]

253. The nearest SFPD station is Taraval Station. I know the captain

and a lot of the guys there. It may be the most professional outfit in town. To give some context, this is one of the few stations that deal primarily with residential neighborhoods, the strip where the zoo is being an anomoly.

If I hear anything, I sure will update. But, I've no reason to believe I'll get special information from anyone. The guys working on this are responsible professionals -- even though the zoo management and related entities might want to spin ahead of a lawsuit.

[LisaL]

254. By the way pet stores sell these little laser pointer to play

with domestic kitty cats. Hours of fun.
I doubt that little thing would work at the zoo.

[Maddy McCall]

259. I responded to you above on this topic.

The laser pointers used in classrooms and to play with domesticated cats are not the only ones available. There are much more powerful ones available. We have a 30mh pointer that shines a clear beam for a mile or more. And it's not even the most powerful one on the civilian market.

Teen boys crave these things these days. You can buy a 50mh pointer online or in stores for about $30. It will carry a clear beam for a couple of miles.

The ones I'm talking about are dangerous and can cause retinal damage to animals. Even though you can buy them basically anywhere, they are illegal to own in many states.

A kid recently was arrested for using his to shine on helicopters and commercial aircraft. The powerful ones are not toys and come with clear warnings for their use.

[LisaL]

260. Well, one would think, that if police found something like that,

the police chief would have mentioned it during her press conferences.

[Maddy McCall]

264. No, I wouldn't think that.

I'm sure that they know MUCH more than they are telling the public. The zoo is closed, so there's no need to rush to release info for public safety.

I'm sure that they are getting witness statements together, considering the evidence, and will release the facts of the case as soon as the facts are known.

[atre]

256. Now you're quoting internet speculation as a source?

Lovely.

[EFerrari]

258. But, it's useful insofar as it clues us into what people are thinking.

And, I'm sure Maddy forwarded it in that spirit.

[atre]

266. But not useful for determining what actually happened.

nm

[Maddy McCall]

268. If your sole interest is determining exactly what happened...

then I suggest you avoid the internet--especially discussion forums--for the next week and wait on the police report.

This is a discussion forum--where people discuss all facets of current events.

[EFerrari]

281. We don't know yet, one way or another. n/t

[Maddy McCall]

267. Yes, that's right.

And I clearly said it was nothing more than a rumor.

Thing is, rumors sometimes are grounded in fact, even if just an iota of fact. I put little faith in this one, but it is possible that a witness saw the laser thing happen, and it's spreading that way.

When the police release the facts of the case, we'll know what really happened. Until then, I see nothing wrong with posting rumors that are going around, as long as rumors are clearly labeled as such.

[AngryAmish]

290. I predict that laser pointer will be proven to be BS

It is an appealing angle: it makes one feel superior to the dead and mauled because they were stupid and we are smart.

Like every story that is too good to be true it has flaws. First, a tiger has to be able to put together the dot being on the ground to the small object in these guys' hand. A housecat does not realize it - that is what makes it so fun. Why would a tiger? And why would it enrage a tiger? The tiger doesn't realize it is being mocked.

This is a good juicy rumor because people have experience with housecats and laser pointers. This is the same, writ large. BTW, does a housecat become enraged with the red dot? It pings their stalking instinct. But they don't get made at the person with the pointer.

So, mark my words -- Pointer story is BS. If I'm wrong, I'll gladly admit it. But if you are wrong, will you?

[LisaL]

291. House cat would be having fun, chasing it.

Certainly a house cat wouldn't attack someone with a laser pointer.

[Maddy McCall]

295. I didn't say that this is what happened.

I simply said that it's one of the many rumors that are circulating.

If you'd take, oh, ten minutes to read my posts in this thread, you'll see that I've said numerous times in this thread that the truth will out when the investigation is complete.

As for laser pointers, the one we have definitely makes a visible beam--a very visible beam--from the hand to the spot on the wall or ground. Regardless of whether or not the cat associated the beam with the men--if they climbed over the barrier to shine the beam into the enclosure, or for whatever reason they possibly could have climbed over the barrier if in fact they did, it could have been that the cat was stimulated by that more than any laser pointer that might or might not have been used.

As I've said, though, 15 times through this thread: we won't know anything about what happened that evening until the police finish their investigation. I merely posted the laser pointer rumor as one of many that are circulating. I certainly never said that I bought into that rumor.

The main bit of evidence I'm interested in hearing clarified is whether or not the footprint on the barrier belonged to one of the victims.

[Maddy McCall]

170. It's looking more and more like what I had supposed from the beginning.

No respect for boundaries, real or otherwise. Evidently, no respect for the health and well-being of other humans, much less a big, captive cat that perhaps was an easy target for their abuse.

I'll stop short of saying that sometimes the chickens come home to roost.

[EFerrari]

186. So, how far does the admin at the SF Zoo believe

three guys should be allowed to jeopardize both their visitors and their animals?

Please.

This wasn't a family reunion. This happened at a ZOO -- where both animals and visitors are supposed to be able to trust that they are SAFE.

[JVS]

168. When the tigers broke free

It was just before dawn
One miserable morning in black 'forty four.
When the forward commander
Was told to sit tight
When he asked that his men be withdrawn.
And the Generals gave thanks
As the other ranks held back
The enemy tanks for a while.
And the Anzio bridgehead
Was held for the price
Of a few hundred ordinary lives.

And old King George
Sent Mother a note
When he heard that father was gone.
It was, I recall,
In the form of a scroll,
With gold leaf and all.
And I found it one day
In a drawer of old photographs, hidden away.
And my eyes still grow damp to remember
His Majesty signed
With his own rubber stamp.

It was dark all around.
There was frost in the ground
When the tigers broke free.
And no one survived
From the Royal Fusiliers Company C.
They were all left behind,
Most of them dead,
The rest of them dying.
And that's how the High Command
Took my daddy from me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYtGsvoBVw8

[ThePowerofWill]

169. Eh, if ya wanna look at Tigers ya might risk getting killed.

The tiger did what tigers do. And if anything history tells us no cage is 100% fool proof. A non story really. So a tiger killed someone, used to happen much more often. Not to many yrs in the past it would have been bigger news if a tiger had not killed anyone at all.

[NashVegas]

174. Zoo Tigers Most Often Lay Around, Bored

Only time I ever seem them move even remotely swiftly is around feeding time.

[EFerrari]

184. The thing that nags at me is that people get so stressed out

during December and so do the animals they interact with.

The zoo has a Christmas Day thing for the animals where, imho, they should shut down.

[Maddy McCall]

205. I agree with you on this.

Want to see something that will bring tears to your eyes? Here's Tatiana as a cub, in August 2003. :( This was in Denver, before she was shipped to San Francisco to become a breeder. :(

[EFerrari]

206. I just hate that.

:cry:

[NashVegas]

285. I Hadn't Thought of It That Way

You may have a point.

I've let my local zoo membership lapse, and need to renew. It's my favorite place for taking a mile walk.

[truebrit71]

176. Um, the Darwin recipient got what they deserved...What was it about TIGER that these idiots...

..didn't understand?

Bugger all sympathy from me...

[EFerrari]

183. Um, if that cat got out to chase those kids, it could as easily been anyone.

San Francisco doesn't need your sympathy. We need zoo administrators with frontal lobes.

[truebrit71]

185. ..and visitors that aren't in the park illegally taunting 350lb killing machines...

...

[EFerrari]

188. If I can walk into a zoo and taunt an animal into leaving its enclosure

that isn't a safe place for anyone. That's just common sense.

I don't want my life to be as safe as the most stupid teenagers in my proximity.

[truebrit71]

194. Do you drive on public highways? Then guess what? Your life is CONSTANTLY threatened..

..by the most stupid teenager in your proximity...

BTW, if you taunt an animal into leaving it's enclosure I hope you have a bloody good pair of running shoes on...because you'd be lunch soon enough...and rightly so...

[EFerrari]

195. If a stupid teenager can draw an animal out of its enclosure

then, it isn't an enclosure.

And, as far as driving, that's why they teach defensive driving here. Because of stupid drivers.

The zoo is falling all over itself to sell the idea that they're going to put up cameras which they wouldn't do if they knew they were innocent of blame.

[truebrit71]

199. Kids ****ed with a big kitty-kat...the big kitty-kat got out and ****ed them up...

...what is confusing about that?

[EFerrari]

202. The "getting out" part. As it should be for anyone with a modicum

of common sense.

[truebrit71]

207. The kitty-kat hadn't escaped before, but all of a sudden does and somehow the kids are innocent..

...in all of this?

Not bloody likely...

Stupid bastards got what they deserved...

[EFerrari]

210. Let's see. Cats have tried to do the same before in the same place.

A keeper got her arm chewed off last year by the same cat in the same enclosure

Looks to me as though the idiot zoo management was skating and now, someone is dead and two people nearly died as well.

Stupid bastards? Maybe. But there are also consequences for people like me and my kin who visit the zoo and try not to be stupid bastards if those cats aren't secured.

[truebrit71]

213. Then make sure you and your kin don't **** with the big kitty-kat...

...the last time I saw a tiger at a zoo it was licking his balls and dozing...

[EFerrari]

216. Well, now you have to wonder if you were lucky that day

because the cat was depressed, and not because the zoo administrators were actually doing their fucking job.

Myself, I don't want to risk the wee ones in my family on luck.

[Maddy McCall]

222. According to the zoo manager, the AZA inspected the zoo 3 years ago...

and approved all enclosures--did not recommend that any changes be made to the tiger enclosure. After the caretaker was attacked, the zoo increased the distance between the barrier and the enclosure. Still, what good does that do if there are visitors who disregard barriers and climb over them (if that's what the shoeprint eventually shows).

I think that a lot of agencies and people (including the victims IF they were taunting Tatiana) share the blame in this. In my opinion, the one entity that bears no blame is the tiger.

[LisaL]

225. I wonder if anyone from AZA actually measured how tall the

wall was, or just assumed that whatever zoo had on file was correct info.
The zoo apparently didn't know their wall was only 12.5 feet tall up until the tiger escaped and they went over there and measured it.

[Maddy McCall]

240. It's their duty to.

If they didn't, then they were negligent. It's the job of any accrediting agency to inspect the actual enclosure, which would include measuring the walls.

If AZA didn't do their job, then they are as liable as the zoo...more so, in my opinion, because they are the agency that inspects and certifies zoos.

[LisaL]

251. The AZA did not own the animal, so I doubt they would be as

liable as the zoo.

[Maddy McCall]

271. But just like colleges have to have accreditation...

Zoos rely on accreditation...and the AZA is the accrediting agency of zoos.

The AZA certifies to the public that the zoo is properly maintained and safe to visit. So the AZA bears responsibility in what happened, if they were sloppy in their inspection of the enclosure.

[LisaL]

274. I am not a lawyer. But from listening to talking heads on TV,

seems like the ZOO would be the one to be sued, because it owned the animal. Whether it was accredited or not, that zoo, it appears to me, had a responsibility to make sure the animal was properly enclosed and couldn't get out.

[AngryAmish]

292. Not in court

This comes up all the time in construction negligence and premises liability cases (btw, this is a premises liability case writ large).

Anyway, the defendant construction firms say - OSHA was here last week and we didn't get fined for this defect. Or a slumlord will say the city inspector was here and didn't fine me for the rotting steps on my porch.

It never flies. That evidence is never allowed and any suit against the inspecting agencies dies. Why? The analogy is to speeding in a car before an accident. The fact that you were not pulled over or even passed a cop does not relieve you of your independent duty, under the law, to follow the law.

[EFerrari]

234. She was just being a cat. n/t

[Wednesdays]

273. You got proof that the kids ****ed with the big kitty-kat?

Jeezus, do we have to keep going round and round with this? The zoo staff puts out speculation and rumors, and it's eaten up by some here like it's gospel. :eyes:

[truebrit71]

282. Yeah because three "kids" in the park illegally after hours were simply holding a candle-light...

..vigil about the cruelty of caging wild animals when BOOM! out of fucking NOWHERE a FUCKING GREAT BIG TIGER ATTACKED THEM....and worst of all, these kids did NOTHING TO PROVOKE THE ANIMAL!!!


NOTHING AT ALL!!! Because Wednesdays, and ONLY Wednesdays knows that truth...

So come on Wednesday, put us out of our misery and show us the conclusive videotape you have showing these poor innocent kids did absolutely NOTHING to annoy the tiger...

We can't wait!!!

[Wednesdays]

284. Wow, that's your proof?

:eyes:

[EFerrari]

304. The kids were not there illegally. Visitors have an hour to leave

after closing.

[GreenTea]

211. LOL! Kick!

:rofl:

[EFerrari]

218. I'm glad someone is getting some amusement out of this.

My mom tells me that the deceased's neighborhood is in shock, too.

[LaPera]

221. Oh that awful horrible tiger....let's all kill him...the nerve of that tiger!

[LisaL]

226. It was a female tiger, and she's already dead, so it's too late

for us all to "kill him."

[EFerrari]

231. The tiger was innocent. And the zoo was not.

Pitting one victim against another may be a DU passtime, but it's stupid.

[cgrindley]

224. A tiger's life, though, is infinitely more valuable than a person's life

Tigers are precious commodities and their genetic stock needs to be safeguarded even at the expense of situations such as this. Killing the animal was unforgivable, as it was only acting the way that tigers are supposed to act. Executing the thing was morally equal to executing the retarded. The animal was incapable of malice and other tigers are incapable of learning from this particular tiger's execution.

Now, I'm not animal rights advocate, but I do appreciate that tigers are perilously close to extinction. There was no need to kill this one.

And really if you're fucking around near a tiger cage, you actually deserve to be eaten by a tiger.

[LisaL]

228. Oh give me a break.

Too bad you couldn't volunteer to get into that zoo and take it back to it's enclosure after it gotten out and was mauling people.

[cgrindley]

230. Dart the thing

fuck that, I'd wrestle the bastard down. I could take it three falls out of four.

[LisaL]

233. You can't dart a tiger if it's mauling someone.

It takes way too long for it to succumb to the effects of the drug.

[cgrindley]

236. You can if you don't give a shit about the person it's mauling (nt)

[Maddy McCall]

245. I'd pay to watch that.

Really, I would.

As long as it was a condition that the tiger not be destroyed after it eats your ass, I'd pay to watch that.

[atre]

263. Wow.

Wishing a brutal death on a fellow DUer? Those are some serious sociopathic tendencies you have there.

[LisaL]

270. What death? He thinks he can take the tiger on and win.

[cgrindley]

278. I have wrestled the orange monster before and I have won

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=goxlM7c7GK8

[Maddy McCall]

272. Refer to one of my earlier posts...

about the reading comprehension thing. You obviously are challenged in that respect.

[atre]

277. How so?

He said he'd wrestle the tiger. Then you say you'd pay to watch him try as long as nothing happened to the tiger while it was eating him. Do you have a different version of that conversation, because it looks pretty damn plane to me?

[cgrindley]

280. And I've already posted evidence that I could take it

I'm a master tiger wrestler.

[ecstatic]

252. Right. They should have used a taser

That surely would have stopped the 300+ enraged beast. :sarcasm:

[OllieLotte]

276. Don't taze me Bro!. n/t

[Patriought]

275. Tiger=about 600 pounds; Man=about 200 or so

Don't have the time or patience to read every post here, but IF someone dangled a leg, and the tiger got a hold of it, the person would go in, not the tiger would climb out.

[Wednesdays]

279. Well, to be fair the tiger was reported to be 300 pounds

But the issue still stands--the tiger still weighed far more than any of the people involved.

Still, there are too many gullible people here willing to swallow the zoo's spin campaign completely...no proof necessary...

[Liberal_in_LA]

286. Wow. "Tiger Attack" has taken over DU same as the story about the old guy who shot the two robbers.

[Quantess]

288. Sometimes I'm surprised at what I read on DU.

Now is one of those times. It would never occur to me that I would read a tinfoil-hat theory that a zoo "blames the victims" for a tiger attack.

[EFerrari]

299. It's not a theory. The local reporting was full of disinfo for days.

They stand to lose millions in damages.

[LisaL]

300. dupe

[LisaL]

301. dupe

[LisaL]

302. Here is a good article on the subject.

"SAN FRANCISCO (AP) - The deadly tiger escape at the San Francisco Zoo could prove to be a costly blow to an institution that has come under fire repeatedly in just the past few years over the deaths of two elephants and the mauling of a zookeeper.

The zoo could face heavy fines from regulators. It could be stripped of its exhibitor license. Its accreditation could be at risk. It could be hit with a huge lawsuit by the victims or their families. It could even face criminal charges, depending on what the investigation finds."


http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,,-7183931,00.html

[EFerrari]

303. Thanks, lizzy. This is terrible.

:(

[smalll]

310. Lizzy, whoever you are, you deserve this for your service to sanity and reason on this thread

(I tried to read the whole damn thing.)

And to the pro-human-death brigade out there, I have just two things to say:
1) I don't care whether they "provoked" the tiger. I don't care whether someone stuck his foot over the side. I don't care that they may have been playing with laser pointers - for me, the bottom line is this: It is NOT acceptable for zoos to argue that dangerous animals such as tigers can't escape from their confinement, unless they REALLY want to!

2) Look people, I'm a 39-year old never-married man. I have my loneliness issues as much as the rest of us. But to the PETAites and crypto-PETAites here: gushing over "fur babies,*" endorsing the death penalty for the crime of vexing zoo animals, declaring that a tiger's life is more valuable than a person's -- you guys Seriously Need Help. You guys need to find a way to make peace with your fellow human beings, despite whatever happened to you with your parents/at middle school/in your first marriage/vis-a-vis your ungrateful meth-head children. For your sake and ours, come back to the species. :shrug:

*On Edit: On second thought, those "fur babies" comments were in the LBN thread on the latest pit bull atrocity, not here. But you just KNOW the pit bull defenders and the pro Tiger-on-human-violence people are the same folks.

[HughMoran]

297. If they hadn't looked so damned tasty

:D

[Catherine Vincent]

306. I agree.

Grownups and kids tease zoo animals all the time. It's stupid but it happens. It doesn't make it right what the tiger did. And unfortunately the tiger and a victim is dead and two others hurt.

[minnesota_liberal]

311. After an investigation involving measurements, footprints and twenty-seven 8x10 photographs...

it will be decided that the enclosure was not escape-proof and that it hadn't mattered until humans showed that their side of the exhibit was not idiot-proof.

Regardless of the victims' culpability, the zoo will be found at fault and have to pay multi-million-dollar settlements.

Unless the zoo decides that it's through with tigers, donations will eventually fund a state-of-the-art exhibit with 18-foot walls to keep the tigers in and a significant barrier to keep the humans out. Safety and liability will take presidence over aesthetics and photo opportunities.

[panzerfaust]

314. CC-TV: Not

No matter what happened, this is very sad for all - Tiger and Teenagers - involved.

There are only two people who know for sure if the tiger was being taunted, and how it got out. Early on, I recall thinking that CC-TV tapes would soon settle this.

Turns out that the SFO zoo did not have CC-TVs, at least not on an exhibit holding arguably their most dangerous, and most likely to be taunted, animals.

When I was a kid, some heartless soul crept in and shot a Polar Bear at the local zoo. Ever since then I have been sad about zoos, and wish that the animals on display were better protected from the animals looking at them. In the San Diego zoo I think that they are.

It is also of interest that the current SFO zoo director, when director of the LA zoo, reportedly was criticized for allowing repeated animal escapes.

Should the cat have been able to get out - of course not.

HOW and WHY did the cat get out?

As I said, there are two people, two young males with reported criminal histories of antisocial behavior, who know the answers.

I hope the kids were not tormenting the cat, but, watching people at zoos, it is certainly possible.

Zoos may belong to the past.

It is all so sad.

[JVS]

315. I hope Colbert adds tigers to bears on his list