Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

About Bhutto's death: Here's the exact words of a photographer who was there.

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) Donate to DU
 
Buzz Clik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 10:58 AM
Original message
About Bhutto's death: Here's the exact words of a photographer who was there.
The vehicle was moving very slowly as the crowd was all around and it was pushing through. She really wanted to get to her people. I was very surprised she was coming out of her sunroof of this car consider what happened in Karachi awhile back. I'd been photographing her pushing through the crowd, and the vehicle sort of surged forward. I got out of the way and moved a little ahead of it. I turned around and heard three shots go off and saw her go down, fall down through the sunroof and go down into the car. Just at that moment, I raised my camera and started photographing with the high speed motor drive. That's how I was able to capture some of the explosion.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/asiapcf/12/27/bhutto.photographer/index.html?eref=rss_topstories



Now, folks, let's put some of this discussion to rest: It would be impossible for her to have been killed by ducking back into the car. She ducked into the car after the shots and before the explosion. Therefore, the force of the explosion happened after she was back in the car, and the simple act of dropping into the car under her own weight weight could not have "crushed" her skull as purported by the "official" reports.



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 10:59 AM
Response to Original message
1. perhaps she ducked upon hearing the shots and hit her head (did not have
to have been hit)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Buzz Clik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 11:03 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Yes, she could have, but falling or ducking under only her own weight...
couldn't possibly deliver a fatal blow. The physics simply are not there.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #2
11. No--she was only shoulder-high above the sunroof. Doesn't make sense
Edited on Sat Dec-29-07 11:34 AM by wienerdoggie
that she "fell" hard enough to seriously fracture her skull. She was shot, no doubt about it, no matter what the Pakistani government says.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Satyagrahi Donating Member (254 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. It was the force of the shock wave of the blast that slammed her head
against the lever of the sun-roof.

"When she was thrown by the force of the shockwave of the explosion, unfortunately one of the levers of the sunroof hit her," said spokesman Brigadier Javed Iqbal Cheema.
http://edition.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/asiapcf/12/28/pakistan.friday/index.html?section=cnn_latest
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
kestrel91316 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. I don't understand WHY people are having such difficulty
understanding this. Seems pretty self-explanatory to me. Though it probably was more a case of her head hitting the lever than the lever hitting her head.

People watch too much teevee and don't know the first thing about the physical world anymore. Tragic.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #13
16. I don't think there's anything wrong with having suspicions, when the
story has been changed several times and no autopsy was performed, do you?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
kestrel91316 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #16
32. I don't even necessarily agree that the story has been "changed".
What we have is a classic DEVELOPING SITUATION with rumors abounding. We all know how the media grabs onto any tiny bit of gossip or rumor out of the mouths of passers-by and janitors and such and reports it as fact. And we have the "telephone game" going on, too, whereby the message changes the more people it passes through.

I think the biggest problem here is that "facts" were "reported" to the media by persons not in a position to know what the hell they were talking about, and before medical authorities had issued official information. Nonsensical reporting of utter BS and made-up speculation by talking heads is not unique to the US.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #32
35. So...witnesses next to her in the car that say she was shot in the neck, because they
were covered with her blood and she had a bullet hole, are lying? I believe Bhutto's aides' account more than the Interior Ministry guy's. I am not one to believe conspiracy theories, and I often mock them on DU. I am a pretty skeptical person. This time, I am skeptical of the Musharraf government's version of events. Seems to me they might have some motives to try to engineer the official cause of death.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Buzz Clik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #35
44. My point exactly.
Why the smoke screen when the truth is there for all to see?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Pathwalker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #35
49. The Government's version robs her of "Martyr status".
According to an earlier post in GD, the cause of her death matters very much to Islam. If she was assassinated - died as a direct result of the violence, she is given "Martyr status", but if she died from hitting her head, then she is not a martyr. While this may seem trivial in western culture, to the Pakistanis, this distinction is vitally important.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
orleans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 03:16 AM
Response to Reply #49
80. EXACTLY! n/r
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Buzz Clik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. The trouble is the timing. Three gun shots ring out, she drops inside the car, then the blast.
That's why we have difficulty swallowing it -- because bullshit isn't tasty.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #17
24. That simple
She was shot and there is evidence.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Buzz Clik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #24
28. You've given us the condensed version, and I agree.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
kestrel91316 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #17
34. Can you explain why that timing is problematic?
Because it makes perfect sense to me. The gunshots were a distraction, or perhaps the first part of a two-pronged attack. She starts to lower herself back down into the vehicle. At the moment her head has dropped down to the level of the handle/lever, the bomb explodes, and the shock wave slams her head into it.

Pretty simple. Nothing nefarious.

I am even guessing she was facing forward as the bomb went off, so the handle impacted the side of her head, where the bone is thinner and it would have been easier to sustain lethal damage.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #34
40. If this was her lone injury, why did it kill her so quickly? Come on--
unless there was a disruption of her brain stem from her spinal column, or major arteries torn, even a bad skull fracture wouldn't instantly kill. Did they operate on her brain to stop any bleeding, remove a bone flap, allow the brain to swell, administer corticosteroids? I have treated MANY people with severe head injuries. I'm not buying this cause of death. By early accounts, sounds like she bled out. That would be consistent with a shrapnel or bullet injury to the neck.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Recursion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 10:02 AM
Response to Reply #40
98. Or concussion
If she was still blocking most of the sunroof, the concussion from the blast could have caused massive internal bleeding. Saw it in Iraq all the time: a mostly intact body liquified under the skin.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Buzz Clik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #34
41. So... the gunshots were a distraction for a non-lethal car bomb to explode just as she ducked...
so that she would be killed but no one else in the car was even scratched?

Yeah, I have a lot of problem with that story.

I am more inclined to accept some of the other opinions stated here: "Ok. She's dead, and she was assassinated. The exact account is irrelevant."
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Recursion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 10:03 AM
Response to Reply #41
99. Or killed by someone inside the car
It's not clear that there were only two actors here. It's also not clear the bomber and shooter were coordinating their attacks, for that matter.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Satyagrahi Donating Member (254 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #13
45. There is certainly a lot of confusion, most probably due to the way
the story is being reported by the MSM.

See, for example, this highly rated Daily Kos diary where the claim is made that according to the official story Bhutto had "no head wound"(!):

"al Qaeda...with the sunroof...in the grassy knoll"
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2007/12/29/9548/9244/619/427548

This is blatantly false, of course, the Pakistani government even published x-rays of the head injury, but none of the commentators seems to object or even to notice.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
intaglio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #45
63. The Pakistani gov't published abysmal X-rays of something ...
That something might have been an head injury to Benazir Bhutto or anybody else. There are no photographs of the neck or torso which would be the minimum they could do to show no gunshot wounds. Of course no such photographs were taken out of "respect"

Yeh, right
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
orleans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 03:20 AM
Response to Reply #45
81. um...hello?
Edited on Sun Dec-30-07 03:20 AM by orleans
"this highly rated Daily Kos diary"

are you kidding? "highly rated?" for what?

oh, on edit: and we KNOW governments NEVER lie. right? right???
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Satyagrahi Donating Member (254 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 09:05 AM
Response to Reply #81
91. What I meant to say is that it had received many recommendations.
When I became aware of the diary it was top of the list under "Recommended Diaries".
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. I suppose that's possible, but since the story keeps changing,
who knows? Weird that the original version was that she was shot in the neck, and then it was shrapnel, and then it was the sunroof--hmmmm.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Buzz Clik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #12
15. Read the opening post. She was already back inside the car at the time of the blast.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Satyagrahi Donating Member (254 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #15
29. No, he doesn't say that.
Edited on Sat Dec-29-07 12:33 PM by Satyagrahi
He said that he "saw her go down, fall down through the sunroof and go down into the car." She was moving down into the car when the blast hit her. At that moment her head was probably right next to the lever which you can see in this picture:



From the video we know that there were just a few seconds between the three shots and the blast.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Richard Steele Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 09:27 AM
Response to Reply #29
92. Read it again. That was exactly what he said. nm
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Satyagrahi Donating Member (254 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 09:39 AM
Response to Reply #92
94. Perhaps we can agree that the photographer's statement isn't really clear
and that it would be great if he could clarify this point as this poster has suggested:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2551117#2553718

It is a matter of interpretation. I think. He could be saying that she was moving down into the car or that she was already inside. Both interpretations are possible, in my view.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Recursion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #15
56. A) it doesn't say that B) that wouldn't matter
Even granting that she were, if the sunroof were still open the concussion could kill.

I was a mortuary affairs clerk in Iraq. Trust me on this.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
rateyes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #12
30. Everyone who believes that, please meet me in Brooklyn...
for a bridge sale I am conducting.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Buzz Clik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #30
37. seriously....
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
rateyes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #37
39. I've made a fortune selling that bridge,
over and over again.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
orleans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 03:15 AM
Response to Reply #12
79. how was this possible if she was inside the car during the explosion? n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Satyagrahi Donating Member (254 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 08:25 AM
Response to Reply #79
88. The government version is that she was moving down into the car when
the blast hit her and smashed her head into the lever of the sunroof.

If she already was inside the car then the logical conclusion is that she was hit by at least one bullet. If she was not yet completely inside the car then it is also possible that she was hit by shrapnel or that the shock wave of the blast thrust her against the lever.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Recursion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #2
55. err
people die from hitting their heads under their own weight

Though if I had to guess I'd say concussion from the explosion.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Buzz Clik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 03:11 AM
Response to Reply #55
77. An explosion that killed her and left all others in the car unscratched.
Remarkable.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Recursion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 08:44 AM
Response to Reply #77
89. Not really
not if she was blocking most of the sunroof.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
90-percent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 11:04 AM
Response to Original message
3. Science?
Well, this is actually opinion, but I don't think the human body has the strength to accelerate the head against a blunt object with enough force to be fatal. An ice pik maybe, but a car opening, I seriously doubt. Otherwise there'd be about 20 deaths a day in the parking lots of America from people entering and exiting their cars!

-90%
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Buzz Clik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #3
18. Exactly.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Toots Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #3
19. I had a very close friend that just one year ago this month fell and hit his head
on an object lying on the ground. He was killed instantly.. The object was a bucket filled with ice..
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DesertRat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 11:38 PM
Response to Reply #19
72. So sorry about your friend, Toots
That must have been a terrible shock to all who knew and cared about him. :hug:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
GodHelpUsAll2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 12:14 AM
Response to Reply #3
73. I beg to differ
My cousin died last spring because he fell and hit his head. His own body weight made the hit forceful enough that it not only damaged his head but broke his neck. He was brain dead and not breathing when they got him to the hospital so yes,just your body weight can deliver an injury serious enough to cause sudden death.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
orleans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 03:26 AM
Response to Reply #73
82. sorry to hear this about your cousin--obviously people die from
hitting their heads--i had a friend who flew off the back of a motorcycle, hit her head on a curb and died

but this woman would have hit her head on a sunroof which was about, what? two feet away from her? how could she come down on anything with such force from just a distance of probably less than 24 inches?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 11:05 AM
Response to Original message
4. So many possible suspects, but I'm convinced of this one thing:
It was a pretty quality assassination (pretty much had to be a sharpshooter) and the explosion was meant as a cover-up--but the explosion didn't work as well as planned.

Maybe her skull was crushed--but she was already dead at that point. (IMHO)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Buzz Clik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #4
21. Good post.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
lisainmilo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #4
31. Agree!
Completely!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Recursion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 10:01 AM
Response to Reply #4
97. I disagree
The shooter was right there, and had no way of knowing she would have her head out of the sunroof at that point. It was a target of opportunity, like Princip with Franz Ferdinand. AQ decidedly does *not* rely on luck for their planned attacks (nor do they target individuals, nor do they do single attacks); so if this was AQ it was a question of an agent seeing a shot and taking it, IMO, not a planned attack.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 11:06 AM
Response to Original message
5. What is the reason they are lying about the cause of death?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. Any number of them:
The last thing Musharif wants is for her to be considered a martyr (although it's too late for that), Musharif has to toe a delicate balance (US interests want to blame it on aQ but he wants to give the impression he's succeeded in quahing them to some degree--aQ does NOT have popular support in Pakistan), again Musharif wants more money from the US and, well, see the previous sentence--he's squandered billions of our tax dollars sent there to aid in the search for ObL, etc...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. Thanks. I could not reason it out myself.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. That's just off the top of my head; there's likely many others.
Mr. B is from India so we follow the regional news with the BBC and Indian media closely. I'm no expert, but have a passing knowledge. :shrug:

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
gorekerrydreamticket Donating Member (422 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 10:27 PM
Response to Reply #5
66. Perhaps the government (Musharif) is trying to avoid the charge that security was inadequate....
They have made the statement that security was adequate...that she was irresponsible for being exposed in the car while outside the secured area of the park where the rally was held.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Satyagrahi Donating Member (254 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 11:21 AM
Response to Original message
8. Actually, this confirms the official story.
Edited on Sat Dec-29-07 11:28 AM by Satyagrahi
The Pakistani government says that Bhutto ducked from the shots and then the shock wave of the explosion slammed her head into the lever of the sun-roof.

This is the official version as given by the government spokesman:

""When she was thrown by the force of the shockwave of the explosion, unfortunately one of the levers of the sunroof hit her," said spokesman Brigadier Javed Iqbal Cheema."
http://edition.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/asiapcf/12/28/pakistan.friday/index.html?section=cnn_latest
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Buzz Clik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #8
22. Which brings up an interesting point: what was the fate of the others in the car?
Considering she was already inside the car (having either been shot or ducking from the bullets), she would have had to have been thrown with tremendous force upward into the sunroof. What happened to the others?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Satyagrahi Donating Member (254 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #22
33. According to the government spokesman they were unhurt.
I watched the press conference of the Pakistani Interior Ministry spokesman yesterday. Of course, I am unable to say if this claim is true, but I remember that he said that.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Buzz Clik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #33
36. As I followed a few links discussing the story, it is clear you are correct.
Even body guards jogging alongside the car were unharmed.

There is no question in my mind that the "official" version is a smokescreen.

I'll never understand why this happens -- governments and corporations continually allow themselves to be caught in obvious lies when the truth isn't any worse than the lie. (I am very familiar with the lies told by airlines for no apparent reason: flights are cancelled due to lack of passengers, but they call it "mechanical"; a part drops off an airplane in plain sight of those in the terminal, but they blame the resulting delay on air traffic control; the crew hasn't had enough down time, but they blame it on weather. :shrug:)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Richard Steele Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 09:33 AM
Response to Reply #8
93. It does no such thing. Who do you think you're kidding?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Satyagrahi Donating Member (254 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 09:40 AM
Response to Reply #93
95. Please explain.
Offer some arguments. Thanks.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Richard Steele Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 09:58 AM
Response to Reply #95
96. I prefer to let your body of work speak for itself, and let folks form their own opinion of it. nm
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Satyagrahi Donating Member (254 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #96
100. Look, I am open for suggestions.
It is sad that you don't want to enter a discussion. Discussions are a great way of finding out the truth. I think that it is important keep an open mind and if you look at my "body of work", as you put it, you will see that I don't shy away from posting information that contradicts the official line.

See this post, for example:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2551117#2555680

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
IDemo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 11:25 AM
Response to Original message
10. My take on this
Unless two of Bhutto's aides/guards are lying, the Pakistani government is:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2551119&mesg_id=2551119
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Buzz Clik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #10
26. Good analysis. Here's a pic of the sunroof.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
IDemo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #26
46. And, as I mention in the thread you linked to,
There appears to be a splash of blood on the white trim piece in the upper part of photo #2 (from Yahoo). If she merely "banged her head" on the latch, no way in hell would that have resulted in blood being projected nearly a yard away. This seems more consistent with an exit wound, as her aide later described.

Even though Pakistan authorities have offered an exhumation to erase any doubts, I think they know full well the family will not permit one.

Perhaps we'll even see a report from a US crime lab which "verifies" the angle of the pistol seen in the video would not have resulted in a hit...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Canadiana Donating Member (182 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 12:01 PM
Response to Original message
20. I think it's pretty obvious from most accounts
that she was shot to death. The explosion was there to a) hide this fact and b) get the job done incase she was not able to be shot.
It makes perfect sense why the Pakistani government is covering this up -- the martyr factor. If she was shot she is a martyr for her cause. Regardless I think she will is regarded as a martyr, they are just trying to quell this as much as possible at this point.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Buzz Clik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #20
27. Yep.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
orleans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 03:31 AM
Response to Reply #20
83. double yep. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 12:05 PM
Response to Original message
23. We know that
despite the spin and the official talking points.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mnhtnbb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 12:07 PM
Response to Original message
25. She died during an assassination attempt. Period. She's a martyr and no amount of spin will change
that fact.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Midlodemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #25
38. Exactly. Jeez, this is getting old. The woman was assassinated.
Do we want to speculate about what she had for lunch as well?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Buzz Clik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #38
43. Sorry to disturb your lunch, but many of us get annoyed when told obvious lies.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Midlodemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #43
47. .
:eyes:

We bow to the all seeing, all knowing, Buzz Clik, who apparently was there when the incident took place and knows exactly what transpired.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Buzz Clik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #47
50. Whenever I complain about the stupidity of a given thread ...
... I am always asked why I bothered to chime in.

Well? I clearly don't mind wasting my time, but you? If you're above all this, then be above it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
helderheid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 12:41 PM
Response to Original message
42. K&R, BC!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 04:43 PM
Response to Original message
48. BBC has released more photos
showing a man with a gun, and showing her go down and the explosion hadn't happened yet. This is one more clusterfuck of a cover up.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Buzz Clik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #48
51. A headscratcher at best.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Buzz Clik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #48
52. I found your thread with the photos: here's the link
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 05:33 PM
Response to Original message
53. Nominated.
Without question, the gunman shot her. The combination of the shots and the explosion killed her. The Pakistani government has smiles on their faces when they try to lie about that. But there is blood dripping off their hands.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HughMoran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #53
58. Yes, why was the initial report so specific
Edited on Sat Dec-29-07 07:23 PM by HughMoran
They said "she was shot in the neck and the xxxxx (I can't remember)". It's impossible to be so specific about where she was shot, and then suddenly state (later) that she was not shot. It's not even close to believable IMHO. I'm not sure it matters now since she's dead, but it is rather annoying that they are covering something up.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Mike03 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 05:42 PM
Response to Original message
54. I'm with you.
Just watched that footage again. In spite of the rabid disagreement of some folks here, I don't see how in the hell he could have missed his target at that distance.

Does anyone think Mushariff would have dispatched his worst marksman to carry out an act as irrevocable as the assassination of Bhutto? Please.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HughMoran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 07:15 PM
Response to Original message
57. She's dead
Sucks.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Buzz Clik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #57
60. Threre seems to be universal agreement on that.
There's also a growing wonderment as to why the Pakistani government is tell the world such a ridiculous whopper.

e.g., http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2553559
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
judaspriestess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 07:32 PM
Response to Original message
59. I thought the attending physician at the hospital said
she died of gunshot wounds to the neck and shoulders??? did he change his story?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Buzz Clik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 07:50 PM
Response to Reply #59
61. Attending physician? Not sure about that.
I've seen the x-rays, but I'm not sure who exactly took them.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Satyagrahi Donating Member (254 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #59
64. That "medic" was probably lying. He spoke "on condition of anonymity".
and for a good reason, it seems. Perhaps he wasn't even a doctor.

"Bhutto was rushed into emergency surgery. A doctor on the surgical team said a bullet in the back of her neck damaged her spinal cord before exiting from the side of her head. Another bullet pierced the back of her shoulder and came out through her chest, he said on the condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to speak to the news media. She was given an open heart massage, but the spinal cord damage was too great, he said."
http://www.nwherald.com/articles/2007/12/29/news/nation_and_world/doc47749601dee53468819634.txt

The problem with this report is that there was no chest wound, only a head injury, even according to members of Bhutto's own family:

Benazir Bhutto’s wound was bleeding after ritual bath

By GM Khuhro

LARKANA: Safia Bhutto, a woman that carried out the ablution of former premier Benazir Bhutto’s body, said on Saturday she had seen Benazir’s wound continuously bleeding during and after the final ablution.

Talking to Daily Times at her residence she said she had not seen the wound because it was covered with plaster or bandage, but had seen it bleed. She found the bandage wrapped around her head, covering her forehead and both ears, she said

Safia said she didn’t open the bandage to see the wound as women from Benazir’s family were standing beside her and had forbidden her to do so. She said she herself carried out the bath while another woman from the village, Ghulam Sughra, poured the water.

Safia said she could only partially bathe the body since she wasn’t permitted to move it because of the wound. According to her, Benazir’s left hand was lying flat while the right was over her abdomen. The fingers on her right hand were folded as if she had been holding something, Safia added.
Daily Times

This is the official "Medical Report of Mohtarma Benazir Bhutto":

"Details of the wound and its surroundings

There was wound in right Temporoparietal region. Shape was irregularly oval, measuring about 5 x 3 cms, just above the pinna of right ear. Edges were irregular. No surrounding wounds or blackening was seen. There was a big boggy swelling around the wound. Blood was continuously trickling down and whitish material that looked like brain matter was seen in the wound and on surrounding hair. Sharp bone edges were felt in wound. No foreign body was felt in the wound.

Wound was not further explored. Gentle aseptic dressing was used to cover the wound.

Bleeding from both the ears was seen, more so from the right ear. Slight trickle of blood was seen from right nostril also. Blood mixed with secretions was seen in the oral cavity also. Detailed external examination of the body did not reveal any other external injury.

X-rays of the skull AP and lateral views were done after she had been declared dead. Findings are as below:

Comminuted depressed skull fracture involving right temporoparietal bone is observed with inwards-depressed fracture fragment measuring approx. 35 mm on-X-ray measurement. Depressed fracture fragment distant from intact bony skull measures 12 mm from outer to outer skull table & 12 mm from inner to inner skull table. Two to three tiny radio-densities underneath fracture segment are observed on both projections. Associated scalp soft tissue swelling & moderate degree of pneumocephalus is observed. Rest of the bony skull is intact. Radio-opaque dental fillings are evident."
http://www.thenews.com.pk/top_story_detail.asp?Id=11974
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
IDemo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 08:08 PM
Response to Original message
62. I emailed the photographer, John Moore
Edited on Sat Dec-29-07 08:12 PM by IDemo
John, can you verify one thing about your terrible experience during the Bhutto assassination? Was she completely inside the vehicle before the blast occurred, or could she still have been moving downward through the sunroof?

***************************************************
He replied:

------, can i ask who you are?

i will be glad to help,

thanks,
john

***************************************************
My answer:

Sorry for not explaining myself. I am not a journalist, just an individual engaged in a debate over the plausibility of the official Pakistani Interior Ministry's account. It does not seem from most reports I have read that the explosion occurred until she was back inside the vehicle for anywhere from "one second" to "several seconds". Also, we have at least three different witnesses: her bodyguard Amir Qureshi; Sherry Rehman, a close aide who prepared her body for burial; and an unnamed medic at the Rawalpindi hospital who have said she was struck and killed by one or more bullets.

Again, any response is greatly appreciated.


If he is willing (or even contractually able) to share some details with a non-journalist, I will post his response.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 09:04 PM
Response to Original message
65. A gunman visibly shooting? An explosion? And we're to believe BB died from a FREAK ACCIDENT?
Edited on Sat Dec-29-07 09:05 PM by WinkyDink
I'm not buying the "official" explanation.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
goforit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 10:58 PM
Response to Original message
67. hmm... you would trust this Briish photographer to be legitamit??????
Edited on Sat Dec-29-07 10:59 PM by goforit
Not!! Propaganda folks
You fell for it too,
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Buzz Clik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 03:06 AM
Response to Reply #67
75. Do tell...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 11:00 PM
Response to Original message
68. Why not just check her body for BULLET HOLES?
There is no need for all of this speculation.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sicksicksick_N_tired Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #68
69. Because,...suicide bombing by extremists would no longer be THE topic of propaganda.
DUH!!!

GOTTA' GET THAT BODY IN THE GROUND, ASAP!!!!

:cry:

BURY, BURY, BURY,...the truth.

Geez.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Buzz Clik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 03:10 AM
Response to Reply #68
76. You're kinda missing the point.
Bhutto was buried almost immediately according to Islamic tradition. No autopsy (I haven't a clue where the x-rays came from).

People in the car and aides beside the car saw bullet holes in her. Dozens reported hearing gunshots just prior to the explosion. That isn't speculation.

The only thing we're speculating upon -- and, actually, we're only marveling -- is why the Pakistani government decide to concoct such an obvious lie.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Egalitariat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 11:13 PM
Response to Original message
70. You can't put anything to rest based on a single account
from someone who is trying to put an event, that included gun shots and a bomb going off, into perspective.

You may be right, but one person's recollection of a very traumatic experience doesn't prove anything.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Buzz Clik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 03:12 AM
Response to Reply #70
78. The accounting I posted was simply the one I saw first.
There have been many, many others.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Orwellian_Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 11:18 PM
Response to Original message
71. She was shot
That's what happened.

All the reports otherwise are silly propaganda and used to quell unrest.

She was shot by an expert marksman.

K&R

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 12:27 AM
Response to Original message
74. The official reports of this murder are so shifty and shifting
I can only conclude that two criminal governments are trying to manipulate them and failing miserably.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Dover Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 05:31 AM
Response to Original message
84. I'm surprised that not ONE camera angle seems to have caught
the actual assassination. You'd think at least one would have caught it.

And if Bushco wanted her there so bad as a candidate (and knowing the danger), why didn't he have our
people protecting her?

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Buzz Clik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 08:07 AM
Response to Reply #84
86. see the post immediately below yours.
that photo has been everywhere over the past 24 hours.

As for Bush protecting her, I'm not sure how that was supposed to happen.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 08:11 AM
Response to Reply #86
87. Marines guard Karzai. And, what about Blackwater?
:shrug:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Satyagrahi Donating Member (254 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 07:24 AM
Response to Original message
85. One photo is said to show that Bhutto was already inside the car,
Edited on Sun Dec-30-07 07:28 AM by Satyagrahi
according to this report by the Dawn newspaper:

"The third image shows activists around the vehicle ducking their heads in reflex, suggesting that the gun has been fired. Unfazed, the assassin is still in their midst.

Crucially, Ms Bhutto has disappeared from the sunroof. And, equally crucially, the suicide bomber has yet to blow himself up."
http://www.dawn.com/2007/12/30/top1.htm

The problem is that I can't find that image anywhere.

In this image (which happens to be the one accompanying the Dawn article) you can still see Bhutto's white headscarf:



This image shows her leaving the election rally:

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Satyagrahi Donating Member (254 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 09:00 AM
Response to Original message
90. One wound, right or left?
An eyewitness:

"In the first witness account from inside the car, Dr Abbassi said: "All of a sudden there was the sound of firing. I heard the sound of a bullet.

"I saw her: she looked as though she ducked in when she heard the firing. We did not realise that she had been hit by a bullet."

He had looked up to see her sliding back through the aperture in the roof of the white Land Cruiser. Moments later, the car was rocked by a huge explosion.

He said that after the blast there was no sound from Ms Bhutto. He leant forward to see what was wrong. At first glance, she appeared to have escaped injury. Then he noticed the blood. It was seeping from a deep wound on the left side of her neck."
http://www.smh.com.au/cgi-bin/common/popupPrintArticle.pl?path=/articles/2007/12/30/1198949675431.html

The official medical report:

"There was wound in right Temporoparietal region. Shape was irregularly oval, measuring about 5 x 3 cms, just above the pinna of right ear. Edges were irregular. No surrounding wounds or blackening was seen. There was a big boggy swelling around the wound. Blood was continuously trickling down and whitish material that looked like brain matter was seen in the wound and on surrounding hair. Sharp bone edges were felt in wound. No foreign body was felt in the wound.

Wound was not further explored. Gentle aseptic dressing was used to cover the wound.

Bleeding from both the ears was seen, more so from the right ear. Slight trickle of blood was seen from right nostril also. Blood mixed with secretions was seen in the oral cavity also. Detailed external examination of the body did not reveal any other external injury."
http://www.thenews.com.pk/top_story_detail.asp?Id=11974

The official X-ray:



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Sat Sep 07th 2024, 06:37 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC