My brother has been radicalized

[Horse with no Name]

:(
He is a Marine and I have no idea who is putting these horrible ideas in his head (I can only imagine it is a superior officer) because they weren't there last year.
Speaking of fascism. He agrees we are very close to it. Does it bother him? Not in the least.:(
Speaking on gays. He is absolutely sure they weren't born that way and they can be whatever they want to be.:(
Speaking on rape in the military. It doesn't exist and the women who are raped ask for it.:(
He has decided Reagan was the greatest thing since sliced bread...when I asked him "Why", of course he didn't have an answer. He is only 25 years old so he really has no clue what kind of President he was.
Oh...and he hates Jane Fonda. He doesn't really know why except that he does.

I can't tell you how much this hurts my soul...but this conversation came up during the holidays and my mild-mannered sweet aunt looked and acted like she might throttle him.

My mom broke up the fight and basically said that since he fought in Iraq, he earned his opinion.

[Richard Steele]

1. Oh, HwnN, I'm so sorry to hear this....

:hug:

[gateley]

2. I'm so sorry, too! I get furious when my family just doesn't care -- at least

they don't have those suffocating opinions. It would break my heart, too.

:hug:

[babylonsister]

3. Wow.

Is he home for good? Can you 'work' on him, try to make him see the truth?

That's tough.

And, if rape in the military doesn't exist, how can women who are raped have asked for it?

[Horse with no Name]

9. No. He is stationed on the East Coast

and has decided he wants to be a lifer.
It was very disappointing because he certainly didn't hold ANY political views last year at all.
He hit every talking point and I can tell someone is indoctrinating him because when he said these things, it didn't even sound like him.:(

[babylonsister]

13. The 'lifer' could be a good

thing for him, but the indoc is not. My DH retired from the CG and is liberal (some bennies are nice). Both my brothers did, too, and they're like your brother.

My nephew, who is also in the CG, age 25, I saw recently, and he likes Ron Paul. Go figure. I've been sending him links to dispute his 'opinion', but we hadn't communicated in years, so if he deletes them, I wouldn't be surprised.

You're right, it has a lot to do with the company they're keeping.

It does hurt; I have an older brother I haven't spoken to in about 3-4 years because of politics; I have no respect and I suppose he doesn't either.

[defendandprotect]

15. Military brain snatchers --- !!!

[demnan]

4. Hopefully he'll come around

and when he does, refer him to the local Veterans for Peace Chapter, and their little brother league, Iraq Veterans Against the War. They really help people coming back when they're ready to make sense of it all.

[Nutmegger]

5. ~~~

:hug:

[CANDO]

6. You earned your opinion if you're a citizen.

Don't be alarmed by this sort of rough gruff attitude. I was like that in my young Navy days. I didn't begin to awaken until post service time out in the real world. Military service is not the real world. It is an authoritarian one.

[Solly Mack]

7. Big hugs (((((Horse with no Name!)))))

I'm so sorry.

:(

[supernova]

8. Oh dear, HWNN

Sorry to hear about your brother. :-(

On a positive note, the good news is that he's 25 and may yet outgrow the stuff that's filling his head these days. The military may be a full body experience right now, so he may yet find his equilibrium.

[AlCzervik]

10. My nephew is leaving for his third tour in a few weeks, he's an officer in MI

and thankfully he's remained the same. i had a nice talk with him on Christmas day. I'm sorry about your brother.

[Didereaux]

11. Hey, not a diss, but if he is a Marine they are by definition a personality ...

type predisposed to group-think. Can't be helped, some at advanced age sometimes change, but not often. A sort of apropos saying my granddad used to use was "If he wants to be a cop, he shouldn't be one."

[Bigmack]

27. Lots of Marines are different....

I belonged to Vietnam Vets against the War, and now in Vets for Peace. There are lots of ex-jarheads in both outfits.

Gen Smedley Butler had two Medal of Honor awards, and he wasn't a fascist or into group think. Have you read "War is a Racket".?

Gen David Shoup... medal of honor winner and commandant during the first part of my time in the Corps said

`I believe that if we had and would keep our dirty, bloody, dollar soaked fingers out of the business of these (Third World) nations so full of depressed, exploited people, they will arrive at a solution of their own. And if unfortunately their revolution must be of the violent type because the `haves' refuse to share with the `have-nots' by any peaceful method, at least what they get will be their own, and not the American style, which they don’t want and above all don’t want crammed down their throats by Americans.'

[LaStrega]

12. Ugh! I feel your pain! n/t

[TomInTib]

14. Fighting doesn't earn an opinion on anything except fighting.

Especially on the crap that he is, obviously, regurgitating.

[seriousstan]

18. The man served, he has a right to his opinion.

My dad told me that.

[TomInTib]

31. Oh, he has a right alright.

But that doesn't qualify it.

I came back with all kinds of weird shit.

Didn't mean I was right.

[seriousstan]

32. adios

[TomInTib]

33. I don't get it...

So what do you mean by "adios"?

Where I come from, that means "Go with God".

And so I will, gladly.

Tom

[Warpy]

16. He'll get out of the Marines, (with luck, with all his parts intact)

just about the time the economy collapses. Perhaps when he gets buried in events he'll start to wake up out of his propagandized fog.

The propagandizing he's been through has been part of every military since time began.

Right now, rigid, black and white thinking that is all surface and no depth and that has been delivered to him by his superiors is his defense mechanism against a world that stopped making sense as soon as he landed in Iraq.

Whether or not he shakes it off is up to him. Most do, but it can take them some time and usually has a side trip into alcoholism or drug abuse along the way.

Just be there for him when it comes time to pick up the pieces and get your brother back.

[donheld]

17. I'm really sorry Horse

Keep your head up.

[The_Casual_Observer]

19. fascism is a-ok if you are on the trigger side of the gun.

Sounds like he a found a place that provides simple easy to understand answers.

[Harper_is_Bush]

20. You should just love him as a brother and not attempt to (or engage in) political conversations with

him.

He was in Iraq, so he may be feeling some heavy emotion and harbor some warped views. Let him just be what he needs to be at the moment. Tell him your opinions, but don't argue or pick fights.

good luck

[Hoof Hearted]

21. That's a crap excuse your mom made for him but I understand her desire to protect him

as a mom. However this time it was misplaced. He needs to be challenged. It can be pretty tough to deprogram somebody who's that brainwashed but it's not going to happen by making excuses for him.

[CoffeeCat]

22. Part of growing up...

...is trying on new opinions and ideas.

If your brother was never like this, chances are, he's adopted some of the radicalized opinions of those
who were around him. I imagine, in a war zone, you have no choice but to become like everyone around
you, because you depend on them to guard your life.

It sounds like he's just "trying on" these viewpoints.

I find it interesting that he would be so open about these very-extreme views, knowing that you (and others
in the room) would strongly disagree. It's as if he wanted to hear contrary viewpoints.

What struck me the most is his opinion that Fascism is upon us and that it's ok. My guess is that he's so tightly
wound (do you think he has a little PTSD?) from being in Iraq, and he's got a bit of Stockholm Syndrome. He's adopted the radical
reality of those who surround him, in order to protect himself from the harsh realities.

I mean no one--is ok with creeping Fascism. Anyone in the military would know that our freedom is our most precious
commodity. They die fighting for it. It sounds like your brother may be in the process of unraveling from
his war experience.

I would keep the lines of communication open. Listen. Let him talk. My take on his talking, is that he's
processing. Be sure to speak your mind gently, so he can understand that there are more sane viewpoints. You
can help him normalize.

It sounds like he's on a long road to finding his way back.

[RaleighNCDUer]

26. Well said. The thing to do is slowly reiintroduce logic to his life.

Pointing out the inconsistancy of being ok with fascism, and having taken an oath to protect and defend the Constitution. Even I, as an atheist socialist, saw my oath as something sacred. He likely does as well.

[tnlefty]

23. ...

Big :hug:

I can only say that the brothers that I have now are not the ones that I grew up with and they're both older than I and we're all well above 25! The one that I get so angry with is the one who was sweating out his lottery number in Nam and he is very gung ho about what is going on in Iraq.:crazy:

Although I will say that I'm slightly disappointed that your mother didn't take him to task about the 'rape in the military doesn't exist and the women who are raped ask for it'. I have 3 sons and we've been through every scenario that I've read, heard about or imagined regarding rape and when one of them tried to use that word lightly, he got it from both verbal barrels from me.

I can imagine how it hurts your soul. I don't even know who my brothers are anymore, and what I do know isn't very appealing. :hug:

[mitchtv]

24. Sad really, It reminds me of half my family

3 pukes, 2 Dems, my brother the ex marine is the worst, I finally had to tell him to cool it with the hate mail and other puke bilge they send around. My sister got a new boyfriend, now she sends that hateful , racist garbage Ugh! I'm embarrassed. You are a saint to put up with it.

[EFerrari]

25. Being in or near a combat zone must push people's thinking to black and white.

It must be a survival instinct.

I hope he settles down.

:hug:

[Malikshah]

28. "My mom broke up the fight and basically said that since he fought in Iraq, he earned his opinion."

This sort of thinking has to be nipped in the bud.

Stop the assault on reason.

Parse the sentiment and it shows an appalling lack of logic and reason.

When things cool down it's time for heart to heart with the folks involved.

[Bigmack]

29. "....since he fought in Iraq, he earned his opinion."

Nobody should back down from arguing with somebody merely because that person spent time in the shit. If he was full of shit before, or he became full of shit while in the shit, or he became full of shit afterwards..... he is still full of shit!

Combat time only means combat time... it does not make one an expert on human sexuality, or geopolitics, or Jane Fonda. Combat time does not add weight to bullshit.

[TahitiNut]

30. It's akin to the Stockholm syndrome.

Military indoctrination demands almost synaptic responses, particularly in combat arms. It is curable, but only with time and effort. "Back in the day" when we were drafted, social "quarantines" were a side-effect of the system.

[fed-up]

34. my baby bro came back from Gulf War I w/pro war talking points w/in 6 months he did a 180 and has

since spent his life dedicated to helping vets. He was fed reams of propoganda.

There is HOPE! He was 28 when he returned so age does not really matter.

Never give up, he may come around.

[tom_paine]

35. My deepest condolences, HwnN.

And yes, in facsism there are two sides: The Hunter and the Hunted.

It sounds like he is very proud to have cast his lot with the Hunters (who also happen to be the Nazis, the Soviet & Chinese Communists, Pinochet's Thugs, the Tonton Macoute, Pol Pot's Murderers, etc. etc.)

That is a tragedy beyond description, because it sounds like he has not only willingly joined "The Dark Side" as Cheney himself likes to call it, but gleefully so.

I do not envy you you choices in this matter.

However, make sure that you tell him nothing of your post-Crunch Time plans or what is in your heart.

He sound like a guy who would happily turn you into the Gestapo and would feel a great deal of pride as you were waterboarded and otherwise brutally tortured.

Never forget this, for he will make you pay for it.

Again my deepest condolences. But never forget, your brother is the psychological equivalent of a Wehrmacht Soldier who is also a member of the Nazi Party and you are a filthy traitorous Juden.

[Perry Logan]

36. He'll recover. He's just in "warrior mode" right now.

[mwb970]

37. He sounds sad and lost.

I hope you get him back, but I'm not holding my breath.

[Vinca]

38. It sounds like he's been listening to Limbaugh on the military channel. nt

[lonestarnot]

39. The put Sean Hannity dust on his pie.

[Buzz Clik]

40. Young men form opinions from all sorts of influences.

It's not out of the question that his opinions aren't what they seem; he may be exaggerating his positions simply to irritate you.

We have a marine who has completed two tours of Iraq. This Christmas, three of us were sitting around just yacking about not much when Bruce Springsteen's concert tour was mentioned. He said, "I wouldn't spend a penny to hear him. What a socialist idiot." We pointed out that, for a socialist, Springsteen was doing a nice job of negotiating the world of capitalism. "Well, then, based on all his anti-corporate bullshit, he's a hypocrite." I don't fully agree with that analysis, but it was a big step from deciding Springsteen is a socialist.

Sometimes a rational discussion can really help out with the way opinions are held and expressed.

[Cheap_Trick]

41. he didn't "earn" his opinion

it was issued to him along with his rifle and fatigues.