ensuring accurate vote counting -- a question

[onenote]

Like many, I'm troubled by the potential for shenanigans with electronic voting. On the other hand, I'm not sure what the best solution is. Its not as if elections conducted with paper ballots have never been compromised.

Ultimately, my concern comes down to the following: is there a means of ensuring accurate elections that doesn't compromise the secret nature of elections? Or will any solution involve a system that would allow someone to figure exactly who individuals voted for?

[Vincardog]

1. paper ballots do not cary any danger to security. Unless you think someone will start fingerprinting

[onenote]

2. agreed.

I wasn't suggesting paper ballots carried any danger to security. However, using paper ballots doesn't in and of itself prevent ballot stuffing or other abuses. I prefer paper ballots to electronic balloting, but i also recognize that paper balloting does not necessarily guarantee that elections won't be "fixed".

[AmBlue]

5. Security for paper ballots is compromised...

...when there are breaches in the chain of custody, when there is insufficient transparency, and when meaningful audits are not done.

We have many states right now with paper ballots mandated by law, but not yet is there a state with a model (excellent) statistically significant audit mandated by law. "Statistically significant" means the audit is dynamic, fluctuating in direct proportion to things like margin of victory, number of voters, federal or local race, etc. It targets auditing resources with precision in a way that races that need the most attention get it, and public funds are used judiciously. If problems are found in an audit, then there are specific triggers that "escalate" the audit, meaning more and more ballots are looked at until a problem is conclusively ruled out or determined definitively to be an issue. In this manner, a problem race could conceivably have a 100% manual audit. This is the type of audit conducted by auditing professionals for major banking institutions and in the corporate world. Our elections deserve no less scrutiny.

Minnesota has a flat percentage-based audit (that was just increased) and they are doing a great job of breaking new and important ground there. If New Jersey's S. 507 passes the House, it just passed the Senate I believe, it will be the best audit legislation we have so far.

So, to answer your question: Paper ballots optically scanned in the precinct, careful chain of custody procedures, transparency built into the process, and statistically significant, random, manual audits-- all mandated by law. There are lots of technical and procedural details to tend to in enacting that legislation all over the country, but people do understand the common sense idea that if you've got paper ballots you must be able count them with human hands and eyes to double check the machine counts. It's a high bar, but it is achievable and that's where much of the election integrity community's work is headed.

[onenote]

9. thanks. That's helpful information.

[Junkdrawer]

3. I like the Canadian system...

Paper ballots hand counted in front of witnesses from all parties.

The only objection I've heard is that it won't work for us because we vote on too many races at once.

To which I say: Well, then use the system only on Federal elections where there is clearly the largest motivation for cheating.

[AmBlue]

10. Here is an alternative:

Tally the ballots in the precinct with the optical scanners and then-- important step-- POST the election results for that precinct immediately thereafter at that precinct and on a website that is available to the public and to the media. Proper ballot accounting should check to see if the number of ballots collected in the precinct matches the number of voters signed in at the precinct. If the numbers are off, the precinct is flagged for further investigation by the audit.

Ballots are then secured in the precinct, marked by precinct, and transferred to the central office for random selection by the audit process. If audits are conducted properly, in a statistically significant manner, and there is, say, a ballot programming error, that error will be found in the audits of the randomly selected ballots and will trigger greater investigation.

All final election results should reflect corrected anomalies found by the audit and ultimately be able to be reconciled back to the election results posted originally at the precincts.

[Junkdrawer]

12. In that system EVERYTHING depends on who does the "random" audit...

as we've seen in Ohio, "random audits" can be a pre-arranged joke.

[AmBlue]

13. The random selection must be done publicly

...and audits must begin immediately with public and party observers. Chain of custody must be impeccable. All of this must be written into statute.

Of course, we're talking perfect world here...

[randr]

4. Each day countless billions of dollars

are accounted for with utmost accuracy. Transactions involving numerous methods and procedures. Not a penny is lost. Hopefully no privacy issues are breached. Each hour of each day more is counted accurately than numbers of votes cast on one day every other year. All by machined made by the same people who would have us believe the votes can not be accurately counted.
Think about it. IF THEY CARED AS MUCH ABOUT OUR VOTES AS ABOUT THEIR MONEY WE WOULD HAVE NO PROBLEM!!!

[canetoad]

8. Bloody good post.

Says it all.

[AmBlue]

6. You might want to also post...

...this question in the Election Reform forum where it gets more attention from the election integrity pointy-heads. :)

[stillcool]

7. Venezuela... n/t

[blues90]

11. What about all the voter registrations that get tossed in the trash

Or the ID issues that many voters have to deal with .

If these issues are not addressed then voting will never count all vote in a realistic manner . Let alone these black box machines or the scanners .

Everyone was told to bring cameras and take notes in 2006 but still we know damn well votes were stolen .

When they allowed Bush to win by the courts decision in 2000 we were screwed for year to come , I would imagine many people now don't vote simply because they know their vote is in question and that to me was part of their long term plan . Instill doubt in the entire system not the doubt is not real .

I say we punch a paper ballot or mark it like an absentee , take it home and mail it in , once counted you get a copy of your ballot mailed back confirming it was counted with a number that matches .

[AmBlue]

14. Relying on the feds (USPS) to deliver ballots?

That's not so reliable. We've had thousands of ballots not arrive at all and I personally won't trust the post office to deliver a ballot for me. The other good thing about going to the polls on election day (for those states that employ paper ballots optically scanned in the precincts) is that the optical scanners will alert you to overvotes on your ballot and allow you to fix what would be an unfixable error had you mailed it in. You also get to see your own ballot go into the ballot box so you know it got to its destination.

ID issues are a problem. Here in Florida the courts just struck down the "no match no vote" law that threatened to disenfranchise 14,000 voters-- for stupid stuff like a missing hyphen in a name-- and they are adding them back to the rolls, probably even as we speak. That will be a constant battle, especially as we get verifiable voting in place in more and more states and those that would disenfranchise continue to look for the old tried and true methods of disenfranchisement.

What's been amazing is that as the public has become more involved in the scrutiny of our elections and demanding trustworthy methods of voting, we are seeing movement. We've got those nasty touchscreens on the run all over the country.

Also, as we get audits written into law, it is a huge deterrent to those that might be inclined to wholesale mischief via tampering with machine software. Messing with paper ballots is messier and involves a lot more work than one lone programmer or elections insider that has opportunity and motive to make sure his guy wins.

And remember, the only way to be sure your vote doesn't count is to not vote. Please don't ever stop exercising that right and encourage every single eligible American citizen to do the same.