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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-01-08 06:59 AM
Original message
I see dead people ...


Link: http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0801/S00011.htm

M. Collins: Forget the Torture Tapes



Caravaggio

Michael Collins
"Scoop" Independent News
Washington, D.C.

There’s a reflexive tendency to think the worst of the Bush-Cheney administration when scandals like the torture tapes emerge. This tendency is well justified.

This administration’s defining moment was the Iraq invasion. Over time, it caused death to 1.2 million civilians and the injuries of 1.1 million noncombatants. Just last week we found out that there are now five million orphans in Iraq.

How can the administration and their enablers ever top that? Why shouldn’t we expect the worst immediately when we hear yet another accusation of criminal or unethical conduct?
Destroying torture tapes pales by comparison to these tragedies, all a result of the illegal invasion:


Opinion Research Group Sept. 2007
Iraqi anti corruption board Dec 15, 2007

Have you heard or read that 9% or Iraq’s population is either dead or injured to date due to the 2003 invasion? This is rarely addressed by U.S. media or politicians.

The announcement that 19% of Iraq’s population now consists of orphans hasn’t hit mainstream media’s radar yet. This shocker seems destined for the same fate as the death and injury figures.

Snuff Tapes and One Dead Terrorist Dominate Coverage

Odd isn’t it? All this emphasis on the CIA’s destruction of Abu Zubaydah torture tapes instead of the pervasive and ongoing human loss and suffering visited on Iraq by Bush and Cheney?
Let’s take a quick look at the tape controversy and see if there’s some relationship to the dismissal and denial of the infinitely larger outrage.

Abu Zubaydah was either a terrorist kingpin or a seriously disturbed individual with multiple personality traits. He either provided a wealth of information or he was a useless informant. His torture was conducted either with or without the full knowledge of Bush-Cheney. The destruction of the torture tapes was either approved by Bush-Cheney in advance or it became known to them after the fact. We’re either seeing a major cover up or flawed White House public relations in the wake of Rove’s departure.

By applying “the law of subsumption,” (i.e., thinking the worst of Bush-Cheney is almost always correct given prior performance) this side show can be wrapped up promptly.

Bush and Cheney were desperate to justify their disastrous Iraq adventure. There were no WMDs, there never had been any connection between Saddam and 911, and the excuse of bringing democracy to Iraq had no legs. Why are we there? How do we explain the Iraqi resistance? What if the people discover it was really all about oil?


Simple and Grotesque at the Same Time

A justification for this insanity was both essential and time-critical. Voila! We’ve captured Abu Zubaydah! Isn’t he a top al Qaeda operative?

But there was a deal killer right from the start. The FBI’s top al-Qaeda expert, Dan Coleman, didn’t mince words: "This guy is insane, certifiable, split personality." In Zubaydah’s long term diary, he named his personalities: “’hani 1, hani 2, and hani 3,’ - a boy, a young man and a middle-aged alter ego.” Coleman’s CIA counterpart came to the same conclusion. (This is all documented by Ron Suskind in The One Percent Solution.)

This analysis was quickly discarded and replaced by a self serving political fantasy. The key al-Qaeda operative was now in custody! A fourth personality was created for Zubaydah when Bush described his special prisoner as "one of the top operatives plotting and planning death and destruction on the United States."

Bush blew the war that never should have been. He was desperate. Abu Zubaydah experienced the very worst timing in his life and wound up as a key excuse for the program of illegal detention and torture. Next outrage.

Who knows why they taped the torture? What difference does it make? How much more evidence do we need to demonstrate the absolute betrayal of the United States by a cult of supreme narcissists? We can grasp that these are “high crimes” even if our elected representatives can’t.

The relationship between this “key operative’s” story and the media and political blackout about the death and suffering of millions may be this simple. Keep people involved in appalling minutiae and avoid the larger charges which nearly everyone would see as an utter outrage.

In a sense, it’s the same strategy employed by the media and politicians in presidential campaigns. Never mention the real problems, the overwhelming challenges. Keep it focused on “experience,” the “horse race,” polls, and who apologized to whom. But never address the salient issues. That would be telling.

I Still See Dead People

As interesting as all this tape business is, what difference does it make in the larger context - the tragedy that is and will continue to be Iraq? The thought of five million orphans in a nation of 26 million people is simply too appalling to fully comprehend. An equivalent number in the United States would be 57 million orphans. Can you imagine that?

Video taping torture, the destruction of evidence, and the exact role of the White House in the entire affair are indicative and emblematic of the larger problems. These acts represent a gruesome metaphor. But it’s just more of the same outrageous behavior we’ve seen for years.
The overriding crime is over a million deaths plus the suffering and abandonment of millions more, all due to a foreign policy based on lies and deception. This was done against the prevailing views of the military and the people of the United States.

Millions of Iraqi civilians are dead, suffering and abandoned.

How will they vote in their new democracy?

END

Permission to reprint in part or whole with attribution of authorship and a link to this article


Link: http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0801/S00011.htm


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livvy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-01-08 07:09 AM
Response to Original message
1. Nice, Auto, very nice. Thanks for the reminder. KnR
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-01-08 07:29 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. Thank you!
:hi: & Happy New Year!!!
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livvy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-01-08 07:46 AM
Response to Reply #4
9. A Happy New Year to you as well!
:toast:
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-02-08 02:55 AM
Response to Reply #1
85. PLEASE FEEL FREE TO REPOST THE SCOOP LINK/ARTICLE - FULL PERMISSION => END OF ARTICLE
Edited on Wed Jan-02-08 02:56 AM by autorank
"Permission to reprint in part or whole with attribution of authorship and a link to this article"

It's at the end of every article I wrote that "Scoop" (althecat) publishes.

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0801/S00011.htm


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Philosoraptor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-01-08 07:10 AM
Response to Original message
2. Yet they are all invisible.
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-01-08 07:30 AM
Response to Reply #2
6. We have that special magic here ...
Something to do with Norman Vincent Peale maybe?
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-01-08 07:21 AM
Response to Original message
3. Great post
I hope I live to see these war criminals in chains.
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-01-08 07:30 AM
Response to Reply #3
7. Thanks so much!
Happy New Year!!!

I'm afraid the only people we'll see that way is Alice in Chains but you never know.

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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-01-08 09:32 AM
Response to Reply #7
20. Happy New Year to you and yours
May we all see justice at work this year. :toast:
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DemReadingDU Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-01-08 07:29 AM
Response to Original message
5. Very interesting thoughts as we begin the New Year


:hi:

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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-01-08 07:31 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. This year I'll be working on that...
Short but interesting;)

:hi:
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Ghost in the Machine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-01-08 07:56 AM
Response to Original message
10. Kicked, Recommended & Re-Posted
Excellent job, Mr. Collins! I reposted it on my site and took all of the special characters out..

http://www.congressunderfire.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=109&topic_id=41&mesg_id=41&page=


:kick:
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-01-08 08:03 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. That's very cool. Excellente!
What's the main url? Thanks!
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Ghost in the Machine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-01-08 08:05 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. main url
http://www.congressunderfire.com

Feel free to post any time, or I'll do it for you, just to give another link back to your site.... helps with link popularity in google & alexa searches..


PEACE!
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stellanoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-01-08 07:59 AM
Response to Original message
11. Thanks autorank
yet I've been seeing reports of 1.2 million dead Iraqis for a couple years now.

Do we think anyone really knows how many have died?

Then again with the King of "fuzzy math" in charge, they don't seem to trifle with counting votes, corpses, or have accountability for just about anything.

I think we've truly entered the Twilight Zone.

Happy Gregorian New Year anyhoo !!!


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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-01-08 08:05 AM
Response to Reply #11
14. Prez 'fuzzy math' was not involve din these figures...
Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health (1st study, over a year ago)
Opinion Research Group (just recently)

They can interview and count. The Hopkins study appeared in Lancet, the world's leading medical/science journal.

Happy Gregory Peck New Year to you too!
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-01-08 08:10 AM
Response to Original message
15. Very good.
Nominated. Thank you for this important essay. It is difficult to think about the pain and suffering that the Bush-Cheney administration has caused -- and continues to cause, in part because in a year's time, the congress has failed to do their job.


Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Jimi Hendrix

I see fingers, hands and shades of faces,
Reachin up and not quite touchin the promised land,
I hear pleas and prayers and a desperate whisper sayin,
Hold on please give us a helpin hand,
Yeah yeah

Way down in the background,
I can see frustrated souls of cities burnin,
And all across the water vapor,
I see weapons barkin out the sting of death,
And up in the clouds I can imagine UFO's jumpin themselves,
Laughin they sayin,
Those people so uptight, they sure know how to make a mess
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-01-08 09:49 AM
Response to Reply #15
22. Thanks twice. Great Hendrix!
Happy New Year!!!
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flashl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-01-08 08:12 AM
Response to Original message
16. Great post.
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-01-08 09:51 AM
Response to Reply #16
23. Thanks. Wonder why this story isn't even touched.

The orphans is a mind blower - 5.0 million, 19% of the country, the equivalent of 57 million here.

Damn!

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flashl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-01-08 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #23
25. 5.0 million orphans is overwhelming
I always wondered who were our soldiers fighting in Iraq using 'urban warfare' knowing that the major population was women and children. And, as posted on another site: "Anywhere in the world where you have 150000 young males in one place, you will have rapes".
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Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-01-08 08:20 AM
Response to Original message
17. Important thread
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-01-08 08:24 AM
Response to Original message
18. k&r
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-01-08 10:37 PM
Response to Reply #18
66. That's one for the history of our times.
Bush prosecuted by Nixon... talk about a 'beautiful mind.' Danm, Nixon would tear him apart; brains
over bone head. But you captured the Bush secret, those special goggles that only the "creatures"
can see (except for certain artists).

Happy New Year to you!!!
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Recursion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-01-08 09:31 AM
Response to Original message
19. Self-delete: wrong thread
Edited on Tue Jan-01-08 09:31 AM by dmesg
Oops
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Breeze54 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-01-08 09:43 AM
Response to Original message
21. Me too! 3901 US Military and a Million Iraqis!!
:(

So what your OP says is the same but a lot more wordy.

Happy Fucking New Year! :grr:
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-01-08 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #21
37. Happy New Year to you. The 3900 figure for our troops is way low. Suicide!
CBS dug up the figures. Can you believe it? The press did their own study, presented it to the Army medical people and they said, uh, well, you're right.

Suicide Epidemic Among Veterans

What a betrayal! This happens and the military doesn't even notice.


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Richard Steele Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-01-08 09:54 AM
Response to Original message
24. K&R
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-01-08 10:36 AM
Response to Original message
26. K & R
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-01-08 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #26
41. :)
:hi:
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kpete Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-01-08 10:58 AM
Response to Original message
27. Happy 2008
xlnt post from an xlnt poster
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-01-08 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #27
40. That you are!
:toast: to the new year... so many scandals, so little time.
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msedano Donating Member (682 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-01-08 11:16 AM
Response to Original message
28. I can imagine a lot of things but...
57 million U.S. orphans ain't among 'em. Thanks loads for planting this awful thought in my mind, Autorank. Still, a nightmare is better than the reality of 5,000,000 actual orphans. This is some ugly crap. And here we go, la-dee-dah, into another erection cycle, with none of the candidates campaigning against Shithead's Crusade. Damn us one and all.

Oh, yeah. Happy new asshole, feliz ano nuevo.

-recommended-
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-01-08 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #28
42. "feliz ano neuvo" - lets see if anyone other than the two of us can translate that
The truth prevents nightmares, but it doesn't do much to stop "screaming bummers."

Five million. And in the article, the Iraqi minister in charge actually followed up by saying,
'...and we have only 26,000 spaces on orphanages' or something close to that. Talk about literal.

But, damn it, the Rose Parade must go on!
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msedano Donating Member (682 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-01-08 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #42
48. ~ + n =
what a difference an enye makes, doesn't it? Feliz ao nuevo, happy new year. Sans enye and you have an anus, butt in Spaol. Then there's a nouveau riche asshole, prospero ano nuevo.

I've endured nearly 8 years of screaming bummer. Thank the goddess today marks the first day of Shithead's final year in orifice. He's like a gerbil up the asshole of the United States. Don't know how it got there, but it sure doesn't feel like it belongs, but damned if I can finger out how to pull it out without causing a hole lot more discomfort.

Bilingually speaking of bummers, there's a Spanish word, "Buey" or "Wey", that means donkey, burro, ass, or sometimes "good buddy" but lacking context normally would be insulting. So one day my grandmother sees one of her neighbors walking past the house and my granma has a bunch of nopales she wants to share with Don Anselmo's family. At the same time, she's been practicing her Ingls, so she elects to call out to him in the colonizer's language, to wait while she goes into the kitchen to bring him the bag of diced cactus. Now one of the differences between English and Spanish phonemic distribution is the absence of a final "t" sound, hence the difficulty for many native Spanish speakers to say "Wait." The word comes out as "wai", or, buey, or wey, or asshole.

"Don Anselmo! Wai' wai" my generous grandmother called out.

Don Anselmo was scandalized, all pissed off. He'd done nothing to insult my grandmother so why was she calling him an asshole? This woulda been totally funny except his grandchildren took umbrage and i woulda had fistfights with several except my grandmother had cooked up the nopales and made us tacos (burritos in today's language) of nopales con camarron (pancakes of dried powdered shrimp. Damn, a lot of stuff gets lost in translation. Pankekes?

Nopales con (tortas de) camarron.

several pencas of fresh tender opuntia, diced.
small can of tomato sauce.
chile powder.
dried powdered shrimp.
fresh eggs (blanquillos, men have huevos).
onion, garlic, chinese parsley (cilantro)

get some oil or lard smoking hot.
wilt the onion and garlic bits.
toss in the nopales. let the color turn from bright to darker green.
open the tomato sauce, wash the cans with a little water, add to the nopales.
toss in a few stalks of cilantro and simmer.

beat the heck out of the eggs.
whip in the shrimp. add a little baking soda and salt.
pour tablespoonsful of this into hot oil in a shallow frying pan. turn and cook the other side of these fluffy fat shrimp cakes.

put the camarron tortas atop the simmering nopales.

serve and provecho! this is a cuaresma dish, Lenten food when gente don't eat meat. My preference is to cube up pork, fry it with the onions, toss in the nopales, simmer til the pork's done, then add the shrimp cakes.

yum! (btw, check out my la bloga post today for my favorite fall/winter confection, cajeta de membrillo).


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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-01-08 10:28 PM
Response to Reply #48
64. I'll have to see that one in person. La Bloga, looks very good!
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mod mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-01-08 11:48 AM
Response to Original message
29. To the Hague with these war criminals!
Thanks Auto, we need to face these losses with justice for those responsible.

:hi: Happy New Year-let's hope this is the year we finally see some justice.
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Auntie Bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-01-08 11:49 AM
Response to Original message
30. Thanks Auto...That report ought to wake up millions in this new year.
This report should be put right in the face of every candidate...especially those that don't mind this horrible war. Let them face those facts and ask them what they plan on doing about it. That's sickening information to start the NY with. I'm feeling a little sadder than I was a few minutes ago. Reports like this has a tendency to sober people.

Thanks for bringing it to us and have a Happy New Year. Peace to you and all your family. Keep up the good work of informing us of what our government and MSM won't.

K & R
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-01-08 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #30
44. AuntieBush... can you believe this.

Here's are two google searches:

Iraqi Orphans five million - http://tinyurl.com/ytrebb

Iraqi Orphans - http://tinyurl.com/2vskeu

No msm to be found except in the second search, an AP article on soldiers adopting orphans. Of course
they are, they know just how bad it is.

Of course, the soldiers understand completely but the bosses, all the way to the top, and the "replacements" in Iowa won't even mention the total. Some idiot would quibble 'Well can we really
rely on those figures.' We know the drill;)

AP (which knows of the 5.0 million figure) on 12/23/07

"It was just gut wrenching," Southworth said.

A soldier in the military police unit Southworth led in Iraq, Sgt. Kerry Otwaska, saw a television clip on the orphanage in June. Devastated, he called Southworth, who contacted another comrade, Lt. Sheree Gunderson.

All three had spent time visiting children at the Mother Teresa orphanage in Baghdad, and they recognized some of those boys in the television report — they had been moved to the government facility. Three of them have since died.

"Feeling sorry for them on our end isn't enough," Southworth said. "We need some action."<'u>

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understandinglife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-01-08 12:00 PM
Response to Original message
31. "Millions of Iraqi civilians are dead, suffering and abandoned." -- NEEDLESSLY & ...
... because of criminals whom should have been prosecuted years ago, but instead are preparing to enjoy New Year's Day football with family and friends.

Shame on them. Shame of us.

Peace,
Bob

:hi: and recommended.
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-01-08 11:50 PM
Response to Reply #31
74. NEEDLESSLY
You are so right. Hope they enjoy the over prised weenies and condiments.

The truth is out. It's just a matter of time. And it's from "The Iraqi corruption board" and the "Voice of Iraq," both unity advocates. From their own sources!

Happy New Year!!!

:toast:
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understandinglife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-03-08 12:49 AM
Response to Reply #74
95. "The truth is out. It's just a matter of time." In_DEED.
:hi: my friend.

We'll be prosecuting these war criminals for the next several decades ... let'um run, they've got no place to hide.

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TomClash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-01-08 01:07 PM
Response to Original message
32. This is not at all surprising - Americans have been mass murderers for a long time
We enslaved and murdered Africans and Indians, nuked millions at Hiroshima and Nagasaki, firebombed Dresden and Tokyo (only killing 300,000), killed millions of Vietnamese and Koreans and on and on and on. We even love to kill "our own" - over 600,000 people died in the American Civil War.

We are no better morally and ethically than anyone else.
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Vilis Veritas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-01-08 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #32
49. Yes...Humans have been killing for thousands of years...n/t
Edited on Tue Jan-01-08 03:14 PM by saddlesore
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lisainmilo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-01-08 01:13 PM
Response to Original message
33. K&R
Nice Post!
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kster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-01-08 01:35 PM
Response to Original message
34. K&R...nt
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pleah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-01-08 01:37 PM
Response to Original message
35. I knew the numbers would be high, but this is just heart breaking.
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-01-08 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #35
56. I'm just appalled...that rate of orphans in a society is stunning.

I think people will just fall over ... but you know, there will be the quibblers who question the numbers. That's a favorite diversion. But this is beyond diversion. Bush-Cheney have destroyed
a society. Amazing...
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NBachers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-01-08 01:56 PM
Response to Original message
36. "Depleted" Uranium
Let's not forget that we've dusted a large portion of this country with "depleted" uranium dust, which will cause spontaneous abortions, miscarriages, birth defects, cancer, and other diseases for the rest of human existence.
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bleever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-01-08 02:19 PM
Response to Original message
38. How many Americans have any idea of the scale of the innocent casualties?
Thank you for this.
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-01-08 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #38
46. Welcome!

Gotta do something on the weekend... since our team is in it's own quagmire;)

I noticed that, in addition to the original article in "Scoop," the Atlantic Free Press (Netherlands) repost is kicking Good news!

Happy New Year!!!!! :toast:

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HCE SuiGeneris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-01-08 02:20 PM
Response to Original message
39. More excellent observations and commentary Mike.
K & R
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ooglymoogly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-01-08 02:42 PM
Response to Original message
43. It is more than likely that many of these orphans will find homes in
zealot groups like Al Qu!ada and seek revenge on those whose actions caused the deaths of their families.
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-01-08 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #43
47. You raise an important point. The bitterness must be palpable.

Abandonment is not a good scenario for any child. Being orphaned, particularly after 2-3, is really
tough on kids. So this will likely do what you suggest. These "adults" (remember that crap after 911) have created an intensely hostile population against the USA, which is where we suffer. Bush and pals won't feel a think, likely.

Very good point.
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puebloknot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-01-08 02:46 PM
Response to Original message
45. K&R Awesomely shocking! Thoughts of Nuremberg come to mind.
Thoughts of my next-door Iranian neighbors come to mind -- the most gracious people I've ever encountered.

Thoughts come of my Iraqi Jewish friend, safely in the U.S., who pointed out that all people want the same thing: A home, a place to eat, sleep, and love their families.

Thoughts of my father arise, and his involvement in WWII -- the one that was going to put an end to this kind of inhumanity to man, and secure the general welfare so that democracy could thrive.

Thoughts of shame stir as I realize that the America I thought I knew through all these years has sullied its name in illegal tampering with the welfare of other countries for a long time, while I enjoyed the good life of an American citizen, safe from the terrors of war.

There will be a reckoning (I hear).
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-02-08 02:41 AM
Response to Reply #45
82. Yep. I think the "end times" people have it wrong. There will be an end
to the times of people who perpetrate this type of outrage, or we've lost all meaning as a civil society.

Happy New Year!!!
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go west young man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-01-08 03:07 PM
Response to Original message
50. It's absolutely appalling and disgusting what they have done.
I am amazed the Congress has done little or nothing to stop the madness. The type of politics being excercised in Washington these days is completely looney. It's well beyond time to impeach. It's time for jail for these murderering thieves..
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bread_and_roses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-01-08 03:24 PM
Response to Original message
51. Another K & R for truth
History will not be kind to the citizens of this Country over this abominable crime against humanity. While the poster above who noted that the US (and other Western powers) have a long history of genocide, oppression, and exploitation that include torture and slaughter of untold millions, it has been more than discouraging to see the same in this era of vastly increased communication.

When we supported war-criminals like Pinochet, etc., it was harder to get information - one had to subscribe to alternative print publications, seek out non-establishment voices, make a real effort to be informed. Not so now. Our complicity in this inhuman slaughter and exploitation is inexcusable.

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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-01-08 03:38 PM
Response to Original message
52. Genocide.
War crime.
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loudsue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-01-08 04:28 PM
Response to Original message
53. K & R This article is "dead on". The crimes reach much deeper into people's lives
than even a few illegally tortured prisoners, and a cover-up by the war criminals.

:cry: 19% of the population ORPHANED!


:argh: Family values my ass.
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-01-08 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #53
54. 19% orphaned...destroying a society.
It's deep into their lives, the primary family, extexnded, community, etc. These kids are high risk
for all the negatives in life. There's an AP article about how troops are trying to adopt orphans.
Of course AP didn't mention this figure but it explains why decent people seeing tragedy simeply
want to act.

What's the big fear mentioning this in the presidential debates, the campaign trail? Heck, HIllary is
part of the "National Prayer breakfast" and Obama likes to feature his religiousity, that pic with him
holding the Bible gazing off...

Well, I have one question, if Jesus were in a really bad mod (and that happened from time to time) and
he heard about a government killing and injuring all these people, then orphaning five mllion children,
what do you think he'd think - we know what he'd do (Matthew 21:12-17 (King James Version) but what
would he think? I hope all the Republican's and Democrats who either hold office or run for federal
office at any level ask themselves that question before the start telling citizens how important
their faith is to them.
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loudsue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-01-08 09:26 PM
Response to Reply #54
59. I hope someone asks them about it on the campaign trail...there is still time.
Hillary can't quit taking questions forever.

If this information gets spread about the web, hopefully the candidates are going to have to address it in Q & A sessions. But most of all, I'd like to hear Pelosi & Reid have to address it.

Why, again, is impeachment "off the table"??

I'm with you, autorank: the repercussions from this will last through many generations.
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liberalla Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-01-08 05:38 PM
Response to Original message
55. A painful, yet much needed post.
This news 'story' should be in every newspaper, on every doorstep and every desk in America.

I am so ashamed of my government.

A big Thank You to Autorank and Scoop for the reporting they do.
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Morereason Donating Member (496 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-01-08 06:19 PM
Response to Original message
57. Help me understand: 5 mil orphans from 1 mil casualties???
Don't get me wrong, 1 million casualties is horrific. But I am curious how they get 5 Million orphans? That would have to mean that the average family has 8-10 kids in Iraq (Both parents have to die for a child to be considered an Orphan right? Just asking...
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-02-08 02:50 AM
Response to Reply #57
83. You worked the figures out pretty decently.
Edited on Wed Jan-02-08 03:18 AM by autorank
The Iraqi family tends to be large, 10 kids or so. So your backwards engineering worked out
quite well.

There is a relationship between the dead and injured figures and the orphans. I don't know what it
is and I'll leave that to the Hopkins School of Public Health http://tinyurl.com/a9vel and Opinion Research Business http://tinyurl.com/2xlygm . (I didn't include the Hopkins study since there estimates
are a bit old. They were published in 'Lancet,' about as good as it gets for peer reviewed journals.)

ORB has tables at links connected to the one listed. You may be able to answer your question there.
If so, let us know. It's a valid epidemiological question so I suspect the Hopkins people are working
on it.

Orphan - "a child deprived by death of one or usually both parents." Could be death of one parent plus separation from the other. Lots of Sunnis have left Baghdad. I don't know the exact number but it's high. There has been unbelievable violence, body parts strewn in the streets, promoting people to flee.

Very good questions and inference on the math by you.

Happy New Year!!!
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-01-08 07:01 PM
Response to Original message
58. Wow, Michael! Those figures... I could only read up to the first sub-heading.
Maybe, I'll be up to reading the next few sentences tomorrow. But I don't think I want to.... It's too much even by the "standards" of this administration.
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-01-08 11:46 PM
Response to Reply #58
73. There's a clear judgment on this you'll recognize right away (I had to search;)

"I will not leave you orphans/comfortless/desolate/bereaved/without a friend. I am coming to you." John 14:18
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-02-08 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #73
91. Exactly.
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-03-08 12:48 AM
Response to Reply #91
94. That's like getting a blessing and nod from the Dean of the Cathedral.
These events will be transformative.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-01-08 09:34 PM
Response to Original message
60. While I wholeheartedly agree on the murderous insanity of this admistration . . .
Let's not forget Gulf War I by Bush, Sr. --- and the additional bombing by Clinton --- all of which
left more than a half million children dead.

But, I'm sure we all enjoyed the wonderful parades -- !!!

I can also see where "Christian" Repugs might now find opportunity in a 19% rate of orphans in Iraq . . . !! More fodder for "Jesus Camp" ?

Re this . . .

As interesting as all this tape business is, what difference does it make in the larger context - the tragedy that is and will continue to be Iraq?


The tapes are important in proving the involvement of this psychopathic president and his insane
followers in inflicting torture on perhaps as many as 80,000 people we rounded up and held for years!!! Pointing at one wrong doesn't absolve other wrongs.

At this very moment, there may be prisoners of the US being forced fed, transported in boxes
20" X 20" . .. being tortured. ALL of this has to be important to all of us ---



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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-01-08 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #60
69. I agree on torture, 100% - and the 80,000 figure is what's most pertinent.
I was making a point contrasting these 'epidemic' figures with the erasure of torture tapes. If I gave you the impression that I was dismissing the overall impact of torture, that's my error.

In looking into this, the statement by Coleman and his unnamed CIA counterpart, were dramatic. Here are long time professionals callint it early...the guy is out of it, three names from a diary they found that covered years. Then there's the information from the Post article and Suskind's book quoting Bush's plea to keep the prisoner in the cross hairs. I'm not sure this is the case, but as I read this, it strongly indicated that all the torture of this particular prisoner, mentally ill it seemed, was due to the president's need for a PR prop. Macro or micro, this guy and his crew need to go and go now.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-02-08 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #69
90. Agree .. . . and torture has to be seen as a threat to ALL of us ... because that's
what it's meant to be ---

How many protesters now won't come out because of the threat of physical harm --
and low-level tortures --- pepper spray shot directly into eyes --- handcuffed for hours ---held in custody for 24 hours and more --- ???

Shuffled off to "free speech zones" --- ???

Nets used to round up protesters --- ???

We are all being tortured by this administration one way or another ---
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-03-08 12:52 AM
Response to Reply #90
96. Speaking of cyber roundups....

Thought Control on the Internet

&

Thought Control Bill Under Fire

Peace ... but no rest until this is fixed. It's already a civil war at the top and there is
a loyal opposition - the people and truth tellers.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-03-08 02:42 AM
Response to Reply #96
98. Jane Harmon and this legislation are very, very dangerous --- !!!
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-03-08 03:06 AM
Response to Reply #98
99. Agreed. What in the world were they thinking of.

The Rand Corp. is doing the heavy lifting on this. Way back, they had a scholar, or whatever they call them, named Herman Khan. He wrote "Thinking the Unthinkable," a rational for a winnable nuclear war. Can you imagine. What a total idiot. Now, in their brochure, they have a quip about their scholars "thinking the unthinkable."

The truth was revealed by the vote total - 404 to 6. Lord!
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-03-08 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #99
100. The Rand Corp!!
Basically, "Men are really smart about really stupid things" --- as they say!!


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JeffR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-01-08 09:38 PM
Response to Original message
61. Reccing since this thread ain't getting enough attention!
:rofl:

Happy New Year, autorank! And thanks for all you do!!

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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-01-08 10:30 PM
Response to Reply #61
65. Irony...
I was about to say, hey, it's not half bad. :dunce:

Happy New Year & Thank YOU!
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Mr_Jefferson_24 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-01-08 10:18 PM
Response to Original message
62. K & R. nt.
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Orwellian_Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-01-08 10:24 PM
Response to Original message
63. K&R n/t
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-01-08 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #63
68. Mind blowing, isn't it! n/t
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IsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-01-08 10:47 PM
Response to Original message
67. Regardless of who you talk to in this country anymore, or what msm you listen to in this country any
Edited on Tue Jan-01-08 10:52 PM by IsItJustMe
more, there is always a pink elephant in the room and nobody but nobody is ever willing to address it.

It's as if this entire country is in some type of dastardly trance. I don't understand it. I have tried and have given up.

STRANGE DAYS INDEED
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-01-08 11:22 PM
Response to Reply #67
70. Keep trying
...and I share you discouragement. But when we stop, they win;) Couldn't have that.

The AP article on orphans on the 23 failed to mention the total numbers which were available
well before that. http://uruknet.info/?p=m39245&s1=h1 (12/15/2007) Wasn't hard to find.

Happy New Year!!!
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FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-01-08 11:34 PM
Response to Original message
71. A sad reminder, sigh, KnR
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Kurovski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-01-08 11:42 PM
Response to Original message
72. K&R.
:kick:
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Kurovski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-02-08 12:54 AM
Response to Original message
75. Kick. (nt)
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bleever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-02-08 01:38 AM
Response to Original message
76. Wishing for 100 recs, and for at least
one out of ten Americans to be curious about the deeply tragic cost of what has been done.
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-02-08 02:22 AM
Response to Reply #76
78. We'll give it a kick for four good DUers;)
One riot, one Ranger but 100 votes, four DUers;)

:kick: for THE TRUTH
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tblue37 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-02-08 02:22 AM
Response to Original message
77. Easier to read version--with weird characters replaced
Edited on Wed Jan-02-08 02:24 AM by tblue37
Link: http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0801/S00011.htm

M. Collins: Forget the Torture Tapes

Have you heard or read that 9% or Iraqs population is either dead or injured to date due to the 2003 invasion? This is rarely addressed by U.S. media or politicians.

The announcement that 19% of Iraqs population now consists of orphans hasnt hit mainstream medias radar yet. This shocker seems destined for the same fate as the death and injury figures.

Snuff Tapes and One Dead Terrorist Dominate Coverage

Odd isnt it? All this emphasis on the CIAs destruction of Abu Zubaydah torture tapes instead of the pervasive and ongoing human loss and suffering visited on Iraq by Bush and Cheney?
Lets take a quick look at the tape controversy and see if theres some relationship to the dismissal and denial of the infinitely larger outrage.

Abu Zubaydah was either a terrorist kingpin or a seriously disturbed individual with multiple personality traits. He either provided a wealth of information or he was a useless informant. His torture was conducted either with or without the full knowledge of Bush-Cheney. The destruction of the torture tapes was either approved by Bush-Cheney in advance or it became known to them after the fact. Were either seeing a major cover up or flawed White House public relations in the wake of Roves departure.

By applying the law of subsumption, (i.e., thinking the worst of Bush-Cheney is almost always correct given prior performance) this side show can be wrapped up promptly.

Bush and Cheney were desperate to justify their disastrous Iraq adventure. There were no WMDs, there never had been any connection between Saddam and 911, and the excuse of bringing democracy to Iraq had no legs. Why are we there? How do we explain the Iraqi resistance? What if the people discover it was really all about oil?


Simple and Grotesque at the Same Time

A justification for this insanity was both essential and time-critical. Voila! Weve captured Abu Zubaydah! Isnt he a top al Qaeda operative?

But there was a deal killer right from the start. The FBIs top al-Qaeda expert, Dan Coleman, didnt mince words: "This guy is insane, certifiable, split personality." In Zubaydahs long term diary, he named his personalities: hani 1, hani 2, and hani 3, - a boy, a young man and a middle-aged alter ego. Colemans CIA counterpart came to the same conclusion. (This is all documented by Ron Suskind in The One Percent Solution.)

This analysis was quickly discarded and replaced by a self serving political fantasy. The key al-Qaeda operative was now in custody! A fourth personality was created for Zubaydah when Bush described his special prisoner as "one of the top operatives plotting and planning death and destruction on the United States."

Bush blew the war that never should have been. He was desperate. Abu Zubaydah experienced the very worst timing in his life and wound up as a key excuse for the program of illegal detention and torture. Next outrage.

Who knows why they taped the torture? What difference does it make? How much more evidence do we need to demonstrate the absolute betrayal of the United States by a cult of supreme narcissists? We can grasp that these are high crimes even if our elected representatives cant.

The relationship between this key operatives story and the media and political blackout about the death and suffering of millions may be this simple. Keep people involved in appalling minutiae and avoid the larger charges which nearly everyone would see as an utter outrage.

In a sense, its the same strategy employed by the media and politicians in presidential campaigns. Never mention the real problems, the overwhelming challenges. Keep it focused on experience, the horse race, polls, and who apologized to whom. But never address the salient issues. That would be telling.

I Still See Dead People

As interesting as all this tape business is, what difference does it make in the larger context - the tragedy that is and will continue to be Iraq? The thought of five million orphans in a nation of 26 million people is simply too appalling to fully comprehend. An equivalent number in the United States would be 57 million orphans. Can you imagine that?

Video taping torture, the destruction of evidence, and the exact role of the White House in the entire affair are indicative and emblematic of the larger problems. These acts represent a gruesome metaphor. But its just more of the same outrageous behavior weve seen for years.
The overriding crime is over a million deaths plus the suffering and abandonment of millions more, all due to a foreign policy based on lies and deception. This was done against the prevailing views of the military and the people of the United States.

Millions of Iraqi civilians are dead, suffering and abandoned.

How will they vote in their new democracy?
END

Permission to reprint in part or whole with attribution of authorship and a link to this article
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-02-08 02:22 AM
Response to Original message
79. I don't think we'll ever really know the trust cost of this illegal war and occupation.
This atrocity cannot be allowed to fade into history without a reckoning.

K&R

Happy New Year! :party:
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-02-08 02:40 AM
Response to Reply #79
81. It can't be allowed not to emerge either. Amazing isn't it. Out since 12/13 or so.
Where's MSM?

Nobody knows;)

:toast: to you. Happy New Year!!!
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Ellipsis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-02-08 02:37 AM
Response to Original message
80. One of your best Michael...
Edited on Wed Jan-02-08 02:39 AM by btmlndfrmr
Seriously.


Happy New Year.


K&R
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-02-08 02:53 AM
Response to Reply #80
84. Thanks!!!
Very kind (I agree: excellent topic (a McKenzie requirement); few typos; Opinion Research Group should be Business instead of Group (just caught that) but the link works;)

Happy New Year!!!!! :toast:
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-02-08 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #84
89. Did ya see this?
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-03-08 01:41 AM
Response to Reply #89
97. Yes but thanks for pointing it out.
Edited on Thu Jan-03-08 01:41 AM by autorank
I reposted it there. Looks like a very cool site. Nice people. Alastair (althecat) suggested a long time ago that putting the permission to reprint at the bottom was the way to go and it's turned out well.

:hi:
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-02-08 05:35 AM
Response to Original message
86. And some people refuse to call it genocide. This is a must read. K & R -ing this to #99.
:kick:
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Hubert Flottz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-02-08 06:04 AM
Response to Original message
87. "Liberation" By BushCo...
Edited on Wed Jan-02-08 06:06 AM by Hubert Flottz
How could anyone with a sound mind, think, of voting for another republican?

Edit...I had to add the 100th vote!
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Imagevision Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-02-08 11:04 AM
Response to Original message
88. American M$M still claim 50,000 dead Iraqi civilians then get off the subject quickly...
CNN,MSNBC,ABC,CBS,NBC,Foz which make me believe their part of the orchestrated effort to further the war on oil...
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Orwellian_Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-02-08 11:15 PM
Response to Original message
92. Kicking
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Manifestor_of_Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-02-08 11:57 PM
Response to Original message
93. Whatever happened to "Thou shalt not kill"??
Bush says he's a Christian, but he sees no problem with invading a country that did NOTHING to us on 9/11. This has been proven by official reports. He sees no problem with invading a country full of innocent people and killing them by the millions.

I won't even go into his tenure as Governor of Texas, where the court system specializes in prosecuting bad cases and the crime labs are famous for stacking up dead bodies and mixing up DNA samples and losing evidence. Some of those people convicted are guilty of capital murder, and some of them are not. And the prosecutors and the judges and the cops oftentimes just DO NOT CARE whether they railroad an innocent person or not.

He can say he is a "good Christian" and everybody who supports him will ignore his record of invading Iraq and murdering innocent people by the hundreds of thousands.

If they think the Ten Commandments are so important they want them plastered all over the countryside, they sure have problems naming them and following them.

It's their rules, they can live by them!!!

The Bible I looked at did not say "Thou shalt not kill only rich white Americans and their friends".

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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-03-08 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #93
101. The new Jesus doesn't turn the other cheek and hates the poor --- !!!
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