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Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) |
rodeodance (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 08:48 PM Original message |
Official discussion thread # 2; LIVE from Iowa, Cspan 1 now. |
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RL3AO (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 08:49 PM Response to Original message |
1. There has to be a more accurate way to count. |
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Scooter24 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 08:50 PM Response to Reply #1 |
6. That's what I was just thinking... |
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annabanana (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 08:49 PM Response to Original message |
2. thanks rodeodance!. . 390 reporting |
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rodeodance (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 08:50 PM Response to Reply #2 |
4. NECK TO NECK YET |
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rodeodance (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 08:50 PM Response to Reply #2 |
8. you bet |
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rodeodance (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 08:49 PM Response to Original message |
3. K |
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salin (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 08:50 PM Response to Original message |
5. it has gotten very confusing to watch. Compelling, but confusing. |
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rodeodance (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 08:52 PM Response to Reply #5 |
13. I am spellbound. these captions are good!! |
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Laurab (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 08:55 PM Original message |
It's better if you look at ALL the precincts - the one is confusing |
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LSparkle (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 08:50 PM Response to Original message |
7. Edwards was up to 111, having difficulty counting |
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rodeodance (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 08:51 PM Response to Reply #7 |
9. i am having some problems hearing also |
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Marie26 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 08:51 PM Response to Reply #7 |
10. How many do they need to be viable? |
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salin (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 08:52 PM Response to Reply #10 |
14. 57 |
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Marie26 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 08:53 PM Original message |
Thanks! |
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salin (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 08:54 PM Response to Reply #14 |
26. which group was counting (over 157 of the 375 present) |
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Marie26 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 08:55 PM Response to Reply #26 |
29. Edwards (I think) |
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salin (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 08:57 PM Response to Reply #29 |
38. thanks |
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rodeodance (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 08:59 PM Response to Reply #29 |
51. i think it ws obama |
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annabanana (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 08:51 PM Response to Original message |
11. Obama just passed Hillary |
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annabanana (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 08:52 PM Response to Reply #11 |
15. Now they are tied |
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RL3AO (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 08:51 PM Response to Original message |
12. Obama jumps HRC |
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Marie26 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 08:52 PM Response to Reply #12 |
17. Now tied |
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RL3AO (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 08:53 PM Response to Reply #12 |
18. All within .3% |
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rodeodance (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 08:53 PM Response to Reply #12 |
20. infantismo |
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Laurab (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 08:52 PM Response to Original message |
16. Wow now it's a dead heat. n/t |
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Lone_Star_Dem (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 08:53 PM Response to Original message |
19. 486 of 1781 |
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Viva_La_Revolution (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 08:53 PM Response to Original message |
21. Hello all! |
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rodeodance (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 08:54 PM Response to Reply #21 |
25. Hi viva--I am fancinated by it all. and welcome |
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ORDagnabbit (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 08:53 PM Response to Original message |
22. wow....3 way tie basically |
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Barrett808 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 08:54 PM Response to Original message |
23. 503: 3-way tie |
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mia (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 08:54 PM Response to Original message |
24. 503 of 1781 |
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LSparkle (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 08:54 PM Response to Reply #24 |
28. Wow -- LOVE those results! |
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Hepburn (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 09:28 PM Response to Reply #28 |
106. Mega ditto on that! |
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rodeodance (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 08:55 PM Response to Reply #24 |
32. this group is trying to get Richardson viable--someone said he was not but.... |
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Marie26 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 08:55 PM Response to Reply #32 |
33. They had 48 at one point, really close |
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Renew Deal (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 08:57 PM Response to Reply #24 |
37. I was never that good with decimals |
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RL3AO (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 08:54 PM Response to Original message |
27. I think Obama is going to win. |
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Laurab (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 08:57 PM Response to Reply #27 |
39. I think (and hope) it will be Obama OR Edwards |
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tridim (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 08:55 PM Response to Original message |
30. It's going to be a tie, what does that mean for NH? |
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annabanana (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 08:55 PM Response to Original message |
31. This is Nuckin' Futz!!. . . .n/t |
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rodeodance (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 08:56 PM Response to Reply #31 |
34. it sure is. they need a Martoonee when they finish |
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ticapnews (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 08:56 PM Response to Original message |
35. If John Edwards was George Bush... |
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RL3AO (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 08:56 PM Response to Original message |
36. Obama takes lead, CNN gives Huckabee Iowa |
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annabanana (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 08:58 PM Response to Original message |
40. Barak takes the lead for the first time... |
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rodeodance (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 08:58 PM Response to Original message |
41. 186 obama, 74 clinton, ? edwards for this grop |
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Marie26 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 08:58 PM Response to Reply #41 |
44. 115 Edwards |
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Renew Deal (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 08:58 PM Response to Reply #41 |
45. 116 for Edwards |
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salin (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 08:59 PM Response to Reply #41 |
50. 116 for Edwards |
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struggle4progress (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 08:58 PM Response to Original message |
42. 586 |
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rodeodance (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 08:59 PM Response to Reply #42 |
47. oh--i want edwards. yup i do. oh oh |
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Renew Deal (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 08:58 PM Response to Original message |
43. Obama over 50% at that location. Hillary got crushed. 74 of 375. |
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LSparkle (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 08:59 PM Response to Reply #43 |
49. Yesiree Bob we got us a horserace after all! |
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Laurab (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 09:00 PM Response to Reply #43 |
54. That's a whupping!! n/t |
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MiniMe (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 08:58 PM Response to Original message |
46. 586 in |
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Marie26 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 08:59 PM Response to Reply #46 |
48. Maybe Des Moines will put Obama over the top? |
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Renew Deal (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 09:01 PM Response to Reply #48 |
57. The early precints we're probably the tiny ones. |
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pinto (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 09:00 PM Response to Original message |
52. Looks like Obama, Edwards, Clinton in Polk Co. (Des Moines) |
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rodeodance (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 09:04 PM Response to Reply #52 |
62. yup--i thought Hil would do better. |
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RL3AO (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 09:00 PM Response to Original message |
53. Obama up a full point |
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Lone_Star_Dem (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 09:00 PM Response to Original message |
55. 3 Obama! |
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Marie26 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 09:01 PM Response to Reply #55 |
56. I was surprised how badly Clinton did here |
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Lone_Star_Dem (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 09:04 PM Response to Reply #56 |
61. I was too. |
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Renew Deal (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 09:02 PM Response to Reply #55 |
58. Hillary needed 114 to get a second one. She wasn't even close. |
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rodeodance (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 09:03 PM Response to Reply #58 |
59. actually i was pulling for her--or edwards. it was a toss up for me. |
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FogerRox (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 09:04 PM Response to Original message |
60. Looks like the Zogby poll |
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Barrett808 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 09:05 PM Response to Original message |
63. 784 of 1781: Obama pulling ahead |
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Marie26 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 09:06 PM Response to Reply #63 |
66. So Edwards will probably keep going lower |
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demo dutch (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 09:10 PM Response to Reply #66 |
69. If it stays statistical deadheat, i'll mean nothing! |
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Laurab (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 09:10 PM Response to Reply #66 |
70. I think he'll come in 2nd |
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Marie26 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 09:12 PM Response to Reply #70 |
75. Me too |
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demo dutch (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 09:17 PM Response to Reply #75 |
86. If it remains a statistical three-way tie, Iowa means nothing |
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readmoreoften (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 09:06 PM Response to Original message |
64. And back to depression. /nt |
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struggle4progress (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 09:06 PM Response to Original message |
65. 809 |
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Laurab (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 09:08 PM Response to Original message |
67. 835 |
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struggle4progress (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 09:13 PM Response to Reply #67 |
76. 965 |
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RL3AO (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 09:08 PM Response to Original message |
68. Go Obama! |
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RL3AO (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 09:11 PM Response to Original message |
71. Almost 50% in, Obama up 2.5% |
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Lasher (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 09:11 PM Response to Original message |
72. Watching on CSPAN |
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BadgerKid (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 09:12 PM Response to Original message |
73. REAL TIME caucus results map (Dems & that other party) |
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goodgd_yall (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 09:14 PM Response to Reply #73 |
78. Nice site---thanks |
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bdamomma (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 09:12 PM Response to Original message |
74. hey guys, do we need more precinct votes coming in? |
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Laurab (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 09:14 PM Response to Reply #74 |
80. 781 precints to go. n/t |
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FogerRox (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 09:13 PM Response to Original message |
77. 978 |
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rodeodance (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 09:16 PM Response to Reply #77 |
82. Precincts Reporting: 1030 of 1781--results here. |
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Barrett808 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 09:14 PM Response to Original message |
79. 1000 of 1781: Obama extending lead |
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demo dutch (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 09:15 PM Response to Reply #79 |
81. It's all way too close! |
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Barrett808 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 09:16 PM Response to Reply #81 |
83. Yes -- I'm pulling for Edwards! |
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FogerRox (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 09:18 PM Response to Reply #83 |
88. Hes holding against HRC |
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Barrett808 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 09:26 PM Response to Reply #88 |
101. Yup |
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demo dutch (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 09:19 PM Response to Reply #83 |
91. Even if Obama wins by a couple of %, Iowa won't mean anything! |
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rodeodance (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 09:17 PM Response to Reply #81 |
84. i want it to be tied. but .... |
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spanone (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 09:17 PM Response to Original message |
85. gawdalmighty, bill bennett can't get anymore disgusting....cnn should be ashamed |
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Ilsa (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 09:18 PM Response to Reply #85 |
89. missed it... what did the pig say? nt |
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defendandprotect (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 09:17 PM Response to Original message |
87. Did they ever discuss positions of any of the candidates? |
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rodeodance (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 09:24 PM Response to Reply #87 |
97. nope--it is counting bodies only time |
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rodeodance (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 09:18 PM Response to Original message |
90. 1108 of 1781 |
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rodeodance (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 09:21 PM Response to Reply #90 |
92. Senator Barack Obama : 34.90% |
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RL3AO (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 09:21 PM Response to Original message |
93. I think the media giving very good explainations of how the caucus works |
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rodeodance (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 09:22 PM Response to Original message |
94. Senator John Edwards : 31.26% |
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rodeodance (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 09:22 PM Response to Reply #94 |
95. Senator Hillary Clinton : 30.96% |
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jazzjunkysue (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 09:23 PM Response to Original message |
96. This was supposed to be Hil's coronation. She's getting pasted. |
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Laurab (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 09:25 PM Response to Reply #96 |
99. But ....but she's entitled! |
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salin (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 09:25 PM Response to Reply #96 |
100. Pasted would be what is happening to Romney |
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ElizabethDC (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 09:27 PM Response to Reply #96 |
103. Iowa was always going to be her toughest early state |
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rodeodance (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 09:27 PM Original message |
it was a toss up for me--edwards or clinton |
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Barrett808 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 09:24 PM Response to Original message |
98. 1247: Obama ahead by almost 4%, Hill falls a bit |
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demo dutch (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 09:27 PM Response to Reply #98 |
104. I can't believe they're calling it for Obama! Eitherway a 4 % lead means |
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spanone (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 09:26 PM Response to Original message |
102. msnbc projecting obama winner |
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Habibi (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 09:27 PM Response to Original message |
105. And Hillary comes in third |
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RL3AO (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 09:28 PM Response to Original message |
107. CNN projecting Obama as winner. |
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RL3AO (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 09:29 PM Response to Reply #107 |
109. Approaching a 5% lead. |
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FogerRox (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 09:30 PM Response to Reply #109 |
112. 14 more precincts |
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Laurab (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 09:28 PM Response to Original message |
108. C'mon Edwards - be a STRONG second....n/t |
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Barrett808 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 09:35 PM Response to Reply #108 |
116. Looking like a tie for 2nd |
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struggle4progress (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 09:29 PM Response to Original message |
110. 1316 |
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WillTheGoober (417 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 09:29 PM Response to Original message |
111. Obama projected to win Iowa |
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Laurab (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 09:31 PM Response to Reply #111 |
113. Me TOO! |
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rodeodance (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 09:32 PM Response to Reply #111 |
114. umm... drats |
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struggle4progress (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 09:35 PM Response to Reply #114 |
117. Ain't over til the fat lady sings. And since there ain't no fat ladies in Iowa |
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FogerRox (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 09:37 PM Response to Reply #114 |
119. A month ago the front runners were |
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WillTheGoober (417 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 09:42 PM Response to Reply #119 |
122. Iowa is not America ... |
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struggle4progress (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 09:34 PM Response to Original message |
115. 1401 |
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Laurab (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 09:36 PM Response to Original message |
118. Please, please let Edwards stay 2nd! n/t |
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FogerRox (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 09:46 PM Response to Reply #118 |
125. HRC has been as close as .017% |
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RL3AO (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 09:39 PM Response to Original message |
120. Is Obama going to win by 10 points? |
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Laurab (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 09:42 PM Response to Reply #120 |
121. I guess the youth vote DOES get out |
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demo dutch (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 09:43 PM Response to Reply #121 |
123. Well caucus is quite "undemocratic", so I don't think it;s a clear win at all! |
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Laurab (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 09:46 PM Response to Reply #123 |
124. causus? Would you feel that way if your candidate won? n/t |
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demo dutch (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 09:53 PM Response to Reply #124 |
128. Sure it's a 3-way tie, I think Iowa is getting way too much coverage! |
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Laurab (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 09:56 PM Response to Reply #128 |
131. 37% - 29/30 % isn't quite a tie. n/t |
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demo dutch (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 10:07 PM Response to Reply #131 |
132. Caucus process makes the U.S. look and feel like a banana republic both at home and overseas. |
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RL3AO (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 09:51 PM Response to Original message |
126. State delegate numbers |
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FogerRox (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 09:52 PM Response to Original message |
127. Precincts Reporting: 1593 of 1781 |
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struggle4progress (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 09:54 PM Response to Original message |
129. 1604 |
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FogerRox (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 09:55 PM Response to Original message |
130. we're over 100 posts... quick start a new thread |
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RL3AO (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 10:08 PM Response to Original message |
133. Over 212,000 dem caucus goes |
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RL3AO (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 10:14 PM Response to Original message |
134. Obama was ahead with women! |
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FogerRox (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 10:19 PM Response to Reply #134 |
135. The last 80 precincts |
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951-Riverside (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 10:28 PM Response to Original message |
136. CSPAN1's coverage is atrocious n/t |
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defendandprotect (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 10:29 PM Response to Reply #136 |
138. Why? No explanations --- ???? |
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defendandprotect (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 10:28 PM Response to Original message |
137. Do they verify that these are registered Democratic voters --- ???? |
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RL3AO (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 10:30 PM Response to Reply #137 |
139. If you are a republican, you can become a democrat for a day and vote in the Dem caucus |
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defendandprotect (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-03-08 10:44 PM Response to Reply #139 |
140. hmmmmm.......... |
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