What is your model for the "perfect vote counting system"?

[cherokeeprogressive]

Is it "PAPER BALLOTS, COUNTED BY HAND!"?

If your answer is "YES!", then I would ask whether or not your county has over 1.5 million registered voters, like Orange County, CA does. My next questions would be "Where would you have those votes counted? In the public square? WHICH public square? How would you then guarantee that the votes were counted accurately? Would it matter whether or not there was a CHURCH nearby? Or that voting took PLACE in a church? When do you want the results? Same night? Next day? How long would you wait for accurate results? What about the ovals only half darkened, when the same paper ballot has an oval totally darkened for the same contest? Who makes THAT decision?"

For more than two years, I was the principal "Poll Worker Trainer" for Orange County. That is to say I screened, interviewed, and hired those people who TRAINED the poll workers in such things as WHO was able to vote, WHERE they were able to vote, HOW the voting process was to be handled, and WHETHER or not to issue them a regular ballot, or a PROVISIONAL ballot. In Orange County, CA, you can vote wherever you want. ANY polling place. If you're not in the roll, you can cast a PROVISIONAL ballot. After the election, WE CONSIDERED them ALL. I don't care if a TALKING DOG walked in and wanted to vote, if he/she was NOT ON THE ROLL, we'd give them a PROVISIONAL ballot. After the election, ALL, and I MEAN ALL ballots were scoured to see whether or not that person/talking dog was a registered voter in the county.

In a contested election, and nowadays EVERY election in OC is contested by the loser, persons from BOTH/ALL parties stand over the shoulder of the Registrar of Voter employees and argue about the intent of the voter. Case in point: NO marks that might tie the ballot to a particular voter are allowed. One voter drew a BEAUTIFUL vase of flowers on his/her ballot, and it was discounted. The LOSING candidate threatened to take that ballot to the CA Supreme Court because it was a "First Amendment issue". In that situation, the losing candidate thought that drawing flowers on ballots was perfectly allowable, as they might have been expressing their "happiness" at being allowed to vote in the first place. That was the opinion of the losing candidate.

Apparently, no one here considers the tough job that the employees of the county are expected to expedite. When an election is contested, it falls upon the Registrar's employees to count the vote accurately. When the contestor loses, it's usually blamed on those people whose shoulders an accurate election rests upon. In my experience, those people are not only EXPECTED to do their job correctly, they are COMMITTED to same. Accusations of Election fraud, Voter fraud, or some other malfeasance are regularly leveled at those same people.

That is why I gave up the job that I loved like no other. There is no way to satisfy every voter or every candidate in every instance. Nay, THERE IS NO WAY TO SATISFY THE LOSER of the election, other than admit to failure.

No one here seems to understand the tough job those people who facilitate the vote goes through. When a candidate LOSES, it's because the system is flawed.

I want to know who here can come up with the PERFECT voting system. I'm all eyes. I do though, have a suggestion:

Before an election, the county officials should canvas every high school, restaurant, and movie house. They should scrape every piece of chewed gum stuck to seat bottoms and tables. The gum should then be sanitized so as to guarantee there are no germs present. Distribute big cardboard boxes to every polling place, and give each voter a piece of gum for each contest on the ballot. The voter can then bite the gum, and drop it into the proper cardboard box. That way, we not only have a dental record, we also have DNA if the vote is contested.

Do you have a better way? I'd love to hear it.

[MadHound]

1. That would be hand marked, hand counted ballots

It may be old school, but it is still the most accurate way of voting around.

[cherokeeprogressive]

2. Hand marked. How counted, and where? Under whose supervision?

I'd agree out of hand if it were logistically feasible in a large county.

I think the problem is how soon after the election ACCURATE results are expected. It seems, since we have a 24/7 news cycle, results are expected NOW, and exit polls are considered an accurate reflection on how voters expressed themselves.

[MadHound]

10. Gee, we did it for years and decades in large counties.

However what it takes is the citizens of each and every district and county getting involved in their government again. An old quaint notion I grant you, but one that makes our government function at a much better level than it does now.

As far as the 24/7 newscycle goes, fuck 'em. If they can't wait a few extra hours, too bad, this is our government we're talking about here.

[cherokeeprogressive]

14. Oh, I agree. As someone who was intimately involved, I wonder how 1.5 million voters

can be assured that their vote was counted as cast.

[RB TexLa]

3. Perfect? That would be one were I count the ballots.

:evilgrin:

[cherokeeprogressive]

4. TOUCHE! n/t

[rucky]

5. I think the ol' "switches and levers" system was the best.

There was an article out there awhile back that analyzed this.

[cherokeeprogressive]

6. It still comes down to who is looking over whose shoulder doesn't it? n/t

[spag68]

7. switches and levers

NY has old clunky switch and lever machines. They seem to work just fine, I like it.

[cherokeeprogressive]

11. In your opinion, is that the "perfect way"? No questions asked? n/t

[spag68]

15. voting

best so far.

[napi21]

8. I have no problem with optical scan, but we need to add NO CHARGE recounts

if there is a question. I recognize how much people want their results quickly, and in very popul States, a reasonably fast count would be impossible via hand count.

The other thing you may be too young to know is that there has always been questions about vote accuracy. Some claimed ballot box stuffing, buying votes, colusion in the counting etc. When you are talking about tabulating 200,000,000 votes, I believe it's impossible to insure that everything is going to be perfect. I think the best we can hope for is a very small % of error...under 5%.

More important is to focus on caging, voter intimidation, and voter supression.

ALL voting methods MUST be auditable. THAT'S a given, and those that are not need to be made so. Beyond that, you can never achieve perfection, and we need to recognize that.

[cherokeeprogressive]

12. Agreed. n/t

[ChiciB1]

9. I Think What Bill Maher Said... One Stone For Each Person... Give Them

a color and throw it in a pot. I added a little to what he said... but sounds better than what we have now!

[cherokeeprogressive]

13. One stone for each contest? If so, I like my gum example better LOL n/t

[ChiciB1]

38. Living In Florida... I'm Ready For ANY Change!!! n/t

[Djinn]

16. India manages to count

675 MILLION - I'm sure even Californians could work it out.

Australia hand counts 8 million votes and always has a result within hours (individual electorates can take longer but the govt is determined quickly)

You have an independent federal body which overseas the process.

Scrutineers from each party watch the count meaning there's no chance of dodgy AEC (Australian electoral Commish) staff skewing the vote.

This stuff isn't hard - most of the WORLD has a better system.

Why do Americans keep thinking certain problems are unsolvable (vote counting, murder rate reduction, national health care) when all one has to do is open ones eyes to see the rest of the world has already solved them?

Why do you guys refuse to accept many nations do many things better than you do and follow their lead?

[cherokeeprogressive]

17. The US has a zillion counties spread over four time zones.

Would that we were smarter than the average bear. We ain't!

[Djinn]

19. How many "counties"

do you think a nation of over a BILLION people has?

Australia at certain points of the year has 6 time zones.

You're not the biggest democracy in terms of geographic size, population and certainly not in terms of voter turn out.

Only 35 - 50% of eligible Americans actually bother voting. How can it possibly be that hard to count them.

The rest of the world manages - even third world nations.

What is the problem?

[cherokeeprogressive]

22. I am not qualified to speak to how many time zones Australia has nor am I

qualified to speak to any other democracy than the one I live in.

I HATE the fact that Americans don't bother to vote. My hunch is that more will vote in the future than ever before though.

The problem as I see it is that US based news organizations pride themselves on declaring winners based on nothing more than "exit polls" and in effect skew the way American citizens vote in the process.

Would that we were as advanced as third world nations Djinn, but apparently we're not.

[Djinn]

25. the point I'm making is that

you seem to be asserting that paper ballots and hand counting is too onerous for a large population or a spread of timezones.

I'm just saying that they are not obstacles that other places have found impossible to overcome

[defendandprotect]

32. In fact, don't you HAVE TO VOTE in Australia?

[Djinn]

37. no

there are exemptions (religious sop to the numpty Exclusive Brethren) and no-one is compelled to vote.

You are compelled to show up on polling day (or to vote in a pre-poll or postal)

In a secret ballot it is impossible to make voting compulsory.

[ProudDad]

21. Done on purpose by the "founding (white male) fathers"

to make sure that only white, male property owners have any real say in what happens in USAmerika...

[Selatius]

18. Because we don't think to look to poorer, smaller countries for solutions to our problems.

We have a problem in the US where each state sets its own rules, and each county can interpret those rules however they wish. The result is the bullshit you saw in 2000 and 2004 with the recounts and the hanging chads and the undervotes and other stupid crap.

[L. Coyote]

20. Precinct hand count, publish, county machine verify.

Precinct need to be in scale with participatory democracy. Election days should be National holidays.

[Selatius]

23. Optical scan ballots; OPEN-SOURCE SOFTWARE; MANDATORY RECOUNT of random 10 percent sample.

The recount will consist of a machine recount, and then a second and third recount will be done by hand to verify the machine count.

1. To vote, the instructions will say to simply bubble in the circle corresponding to the candidate of your choice.

2. You will be given a pencil with number 2 lead in it. Those kinds of pencils are standard for university scantron-based tests, the ACT, SAT, and other academic tests. You cannot use other kinds of pencils or ink.

If you cannot follow 1 and/or 2, your ballot is junked.

For example, Bob circled in the name of Al Gore in 2000 instead of bubbling in the corresponding circle. Mary, likewise, circled in the name of George W. Bush instead of properly bubbling in the appropriate corresponding circle. For it to be fair, both of the ballots must be junked. If we accept those ballots, then a whole host of other challenges will arise. If John drew a flower next to Ralph Nader's name, then someone will insist that that proves John's intent to vote for Ralph Nader when it could equally be a coincidence that he just drew it there in that spot.

[cherokeeprogressive]

27. "If you cannot follow 2 and/or 2, your ballot is junked"

I can guarantee this will be challenged. GUARANTEE. Junked by whose definition?

I'm on the fence about instruction 1. Bubble is to be understood in which languages?

I'm not arguing with you per se, just indicating which things can be misconstrued and argued AFTER THE FACT.

[Selatius]

34. We can convert it to legalese, but I'm not an expert on that.

If someone else is an expert on legalese, they are free to jump in.

[zalinda]

24. Here are two different articles on the same website

http://www.washburnresearch.org/ElectionIntegrity/HandCountingPaperBallots.htm or how to count 7080 ballots in 4 hours with 15 people for $1000 in pay and $1500 in equipment.

http://www.wheresthepaper.org/CountPaperBallots.htm

Two different authors, and it can be done. http://www.washburnresearch.org/ has lots of data on vote counting.

zalinda

[cherokeeprogressive]

28. I'm not arguing that it can't be done. I'm saying that 1.5 million people have the right

to SEE their ballots hand counted.

[zalinda]

36. And you could, just use the cable access channel

that every cable company must have. You can watch and hear them counting in real time.

zalinda

[cherokeeprogressive]

39. That's HUNKY DORY unless it's YOUR candidate that loses

Then people start looking into who owns the equipment that broadcasts on the community cable channels... and WHO owns the channels.

When one candidate loses, the other side publicly questions the results. I've had the luxury (if you can call it that) of seeing it firsthand.

You'll accept what you see on community tv without question? I think not.

[ProudDad]

26. On-site registration

count all the votes...

weekend voting...

[cherokeeprogressive]

29. I work weekends at the Snow Summit Ski Resort.

Vote on the slopes?

[Djinn]

31. Australia always votes on a Saturday

FAR more people work during the week than on weekends. If you wont be able to get to polling place on polling day you can pre-vote at any local electorate office or apply for a postal vote.

Again there's is NO need to reinvent the wheel here - there are many systems for accurate and accountable voting, just pick one that already works.

If I want to cook a steak I don't start investigating lasers and mind controlled heat - I go to the stove top that someone else invented that works fine

[defendandprotect]

33. Vote at your workplace --- ???

[defendandprotect]

30. First thing that should happen is that we move to IRV voting ---

most other countries use that system -- and they must find some way to count them ---

SPEED should not be of importance --- we will wait patiently for the results ---
accurate results. And the MSM should be dissuaded from concerning itself with speed --
i.e., results by bedtime!!!

Wherever votes are counted, it should be an open process --- visible to citizens who may want
to watch.

We're not going to have a "perfect" system --- but we can have a more accurate, more honest,
more reliable system --- more trustworthy.

Again --- let's see how other nations do this with IRV voting ---
that's the first most obvious step ---

AND, getting any private firm out of the process ---
only government officials should be handling this material --

[cherokeeprogressive]

35. I agree with you... open process...

[SoCalDem]

40. My current sig pic says it all

This would be a SEPARATE ballot given to everyone.. How they vote on local stuff is none of my business.. They could use diamond studded platinum Diebold machines and could feed them into paper shredders operated by a rhinocerous, for all I care..

BUT THESE ballots would be HAND COUNTED..
There would never be more than THREE races in any given year, and a 5x7 card would be all that was needed..

ANY print shop could run these off easily..