Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Sibel Edmonds case: What was found in the translations

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) Donate to DU
 
lukery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-23-08 07:16 PM
Original message
Sibel Edmonds case: What was found in the translations
Edited on Wed Jan-23-08 07:23 PM by lukery
Phil Giraldi, ex-CIA agent based in Turkey, has a typically strong op-ed piece, Found in Translation. FBI whistleblower Sibel Edmonds spills her secrets, in the latest edition of American Conservative magazine.


The opening:
Most Americans have never heard of Sibel Edmonds, and if the U.S. government has its way, they never will. The former FBI translator turned whistleblower tells a chilling story of corruption at Washington’s highest levels—sale of nuclear secrets, shielding of terrorist suspects, illegal arms transfers, narcotics trafficking, money laundering, espionage. She may be a first-rate fabulist, but Edmonds’s account is full of dates, places, and names. And if she is to be believed, a treasonous plot to embed moles in American military and nuclear installations and pass sensitive intelligence to Israeli, Pakistani, and Turkish sources was facilitated by figures in the upper echelons of the State and Defense Departments. Her charges could be easily confirmed or dismissed if classified government documents were made available to investigators.

In May 2006, Giraldi wrote about Sibel's case, again in American Conservative, Sibel described that piece as:

"a fantastic short piece by Phil Giraldi; it sums up the case very well, considering the length... as far as published articles go, this one nails it 100%."

So make sure that you have read that piece

Giraldi's latest piece gives a broad overview of Sibel's case, picking up from the Vanity Fair article, the latest Times articles and other sources.

Giraldi addresses some of concerns that 'critics' (I think 'cynics' might be a more appropriate term) have:
Edmonds’s critics maintain that she saw only a small part of the picture in a highly compartmentalized working environment, that she was privy to only a fragment of a large operation to penetrate and disrupt the groups that have been stealing U.S. weapons technology. She could not have known operational details of what the FBI was doing and why.

That criticism is serious and must be addressed. If Edmonds was indeed seeing only part of a counterintelligence sting operation to entrap a nuclear network like that of A.Q. Khan, the government could now reveal as much in general terms, since any operation that might have been running in 2002 has long since wound down. Regarding her access to operational information, Edmonds’s critics clearly do not understand the intimate relationship that develops between FBI and CIA officers and their translators. Operations run against a foreign target in languages other than English require an intensive collaboration between field officers and translators. The translators are invariably brought into the loop because it is up to them to guide the officers seeking to understand what the target, who frequently is double talking or attempting to conceal his meaning, is actually saying. That said, it should be conceded that Edmonds might sometimes have seen only a piece of the story, and those claims based on her own interpretation should be regarded with caution.

Another objection is that Edmonds would only have seen “raw intelligence” that does not provide nuance and does not really indicate whether someone is guilty. That argument has merit, and it is undeniable that many intercepted communications lack context. But it ignores the fact that someone recorded in the act of taking a bribe or interceding to have a suspect in a criminal investigation released is behaving with a certain transparency. One either takes money or does not. There is very little interpretation that can change that reality.


All good points.

Sibel worked closely with the FBI's special agents and they too appear to have been horrified by what was happening. Unfortunately, those agents haven't publicly backed up Sibel, but a number of them have been named - Gilbert Graham, Joel Robertz, Dennis Saccher - and all have had numerous quotes and sentiments attributed to them. Not a single comment has ever been disavowed to my knowledge.

One of the agents, Gilbert Graham, has confirmed some of Sibel's case. Graham worked on "counterintelligence investigations involv(ing) espionage activities by Turkish officials and agents in the United States." In 2002, he filed reports with the DoJ's Inspector General and Senate Judiciary Committee regarding violations
"in conducting electronic surveillance of high-profile U.S. public officials"
He too was obviously appalled at what was going on, to the extent that essentially ended his career when he reported this criminal wrongdoing.

In the case of Dennis Saccher, "the F.B.I.’s special agent in charge of Turkish counter-intelligence," his involvement was discussed extensively in the Vanity Fair article. Even though much of the detail was atrributed to Sibel, rather than directly from Saccher himself, he has not, to my knowledge, distanced himself from any of the statements.

In this youtube from a speech Sibel gave to the American Library Association, Sibel says when she was discussing taking the case to Congress with "this great agent that I worked with," he said:
"Well, let's say you go to Congress. How are you going to determine who is clean to go to?"

Just based on Turkish counter-intelligence operations, you know of FOUR corrupt congressional people. Take a look at this room (of translators), we have the Chinese Department, we have, you know, the Arabic, including Saudi Arabia and everything. How many (other corrupt Congressfolk) do you think they have come across?


youtube

So we have a reasonable amount of evidence that the FBI's special agents involved in the operations all have a similar interpretation of events to Sibel's. Those who argue that Sibel might not have been privvy to the broader picture, and may have only seen 'fragments' of a larger operation would apparently need to also argue that the special agents, including the head of Turkish counter-intelligence, were equally out of the loop on any larger operation, and that they all lacked the context of the broader picture, and that none of them had the experience to recognize any purported sting operation.

Giraldi's piece ends strongly:
Sibel Edmonds makes a number of accusations about specific criminal behavior that appear to be extraordinary but are credible enough to warrant official investigation. Her allegations are documentable: an existing FBI file should determine whether they are accurate. It’s true that she probably knows only part of the story, but if that part is correct, Congress and the Justice Department should have no higher priority. Nothing deserves more attention than the possibility of ongoing national-security failures and the proliferation of nuclear weapons with the connivance of corrupt senior government officials.


Who could argue with that?


--------------------
x-posted here
http://letsibeledmondsspeak.blogspot.com/2008/01/sibel-edmonds-case-what-was-found-in.html
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-23-08 07:24 PM
Response to Original message
1. Thanks for the informative post.
Thanks also for the agents that have confirmed Sibel's case.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
StateSecrets Donating Member (394 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-23-08 07:45 PM
Response to Reply #1
7. Agents
At least 4 who are willing to testify if subpoenaed by Congress.

And good to see you mmonk.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-23-08 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. I surely hope someday soon they will get their chance.
Good to see you and glad you're here.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
lukery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-23-08 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #7
14. congress
man, what i would give to see that...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
rateyes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-24-08 10:31 AM
Response to Reply #7
44. Makes Congress complicit if they don't...
wouldn't you agree?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bleever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-23-08 07:30 PM
Response to Original message
2. K&R.
Thanks.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bonito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-23-08 07:32 PM
Response to Original message
3. K&R
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
wiggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-23-08 07:32 PM
Response to Original message
4. This stuff is so embarrassing to congress and to our country that I don't
think our current leaders are up to the task of accountability. They would prefer that citizens and the rest of the world continue to think that government is acting on behalf of the people and can be trusted to some degree.

They must think that the misdeeds of this administration (generally) and of components of others are so heinous as to be a threat to our government and position in the world. I can think of no other reason why our dem leaders continue to give this administration and the republicans in general a pass on the last six years.

Thank you for the Sibel post. I feel we're getting around to the good stuff, finally. Maybe we'll end up bypassing impeachment but someday coming around to jailtime.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-23-08 07:51 PM
Response to Reply #4
10. Maybe it's pressure to protect fellow colleagues.
However, it's their duty to protect us.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-23-08 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #4
17. From the ALA speech noted above in lukery's OP:
"Well, let's say you go to Congress. How are you going to determine who is clean to go to?"

Just based on Turkish counter-intelligence operations, you know of FOUR corrupt congressional people. Take a look at this room (of translators), we have the Chinese Department, we have, you know, the Arabic, including Saudi Arabia and everything. How many (other corrupt Congressfolk) do you think they have come across?

Who will do the right thing? Let's hope someone.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
lukery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-23-08 09:12 PM
Response to Reply #17
22. it's a disheartening thought
that maybe every single one of them has been bought off.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-23-08 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #22
27. Here's to hoping a honest one can be found.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-23-08 07:35 PM
Response to Original message
5. This part:
"Those who argue that Sibel might not have been privvy to the broader picture, and may have only seen 'fragments' of a larger operation would apparently need to also argue that the special agents, including the head of Turkish counter-intelligence, were equally out of the loop on any larger operation, and that they all lacked the context of the broader picture, and that none of them had the experience to recognize any purported sting operation."

would be a very hard case to argue. Also, it would be easier to either discredit or instruct Sibel if she was getting things wrong than to implement the states secrets privilege.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
lukery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-23-08 07:50 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. states secrets privilege.
Giraldi makes that point well too. "Why the SSP?"
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-23-08 07:58 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. Exactly.
It's like driving a nail with a sledgehammer. No need for it (except maybe for coverup).
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-24-08 01:05 AM
Response to Reply #12
34. Except if they think they're punching the nail into stone.
How big is this, anyway? Everything I read about it, every time I read about it, adds a brick to what's becoming a wall of 'Great China' proportions.

What do you think would happen if all the parties involved (including international sources) who know 'something' about this put everything they know together and published a paid two-page spread in, say, Rolling Stone or the NYT? US media exposure seems to be about the only thing keeping this story from blowing wide open. It seems to me to be a great opportunity for an enterprising department of investigative journalists to score a huge scoop on a really major story.

So what gives? Where is the US coverage? I'm dead certain it's not for lack of trying. Is it that Edmonds' story would expose so many people?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-25-08 02:12 AM
Response to Reply #34
51. You are correct US media exposure being about the only thing
keeping this from blowing open. They have gotten too cozy in their connections to those they are supposed to be reporting on for the people.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
StateSecrets Donating Member (394 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-23-08 07:43 PM
Response to Original message
6. K&R
Yet another good analysis, Lukery! Good job & Thank you.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HCE SuiGeneris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-23-08 07:49 PM
Response to Original message
8. Traction people. Can we keep this visible? It really is,
Edited on Wed Jan-23-08 07:49 PM by BushDespiser12
pretty damn important.

K & R
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-23-08 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #8
13. Yes, very.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-23-08 08:12 PM
Response to Original message
15. K & R! Hoping for an MSM break.
:kick:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-23-08 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Yes.
I hope Giraldi's piece has added more heat.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-23-08 08:46 PM
Response to Original message
18. I take it you all are familiar with Joseph Trento's work....
When the Church Committee clipped the CIA's wings in 1978, the Safari Club was formed to outsource covert ops - what Casey called "the Wet Work"....


Page 313 of "Prelude to Terror"

...

The effort that began prior to the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan and that president Carter's National Security Security Adviser warned was a serious effort to build the first Islamic bomb - was deliberately ignored by Carter in order to secure Saudi and Pakistani cooperation for the anti Soviet effort in Afghanistan. Like almost everything about the anti-Soviet effort, the Reagan administration expanded on that and the CIA directly assisted the Pakistani nuclear effort by allowing Pakistani nationals to procure hardware for the program in violation of the nuclear nonproliferation treaty.

...

http://www.everyzing.com/viewMedia.jsp?index=5&match=query,channel&expand=true&filter=1&num=10&dedupe=1&start=0&il=en&col=en-all-public-ep&q=soviet&e=16020833

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-23-08 09:00 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. Which dovetails with Nafeez Ahmed's work...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-23-08 09:06 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. It sure does.
I get a lot of information from Ahmed's work.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-23-08 09:14 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. When the same picture gets drawn from many different angles...
you know you're onto the Truth....
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
StateSecrets Donating Member (394 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-23-08 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #18
25. Great Excerpt!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
lukery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-23-08 11:23 PM
Response to Reply #18
32. Trento
Trento has a new book
http://www.islamicbomb.org/

It covers a lot of the same things in Sibel's story

He also writes a column here
http://www.storiesthatmatter.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogcategory&id=19&Itemid=29
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-24-08 07:32 AM
Response to Reply #32
37. Thanks. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
antigop Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-23-08 09:08 PM
Response to Original message
21. K&R. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Prefer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-23-08 09:16 PM
Response to Original message
24. Maybe Patrick Fitzgerald can make something happen
he did such an amazing job withthe valerie plame affair...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-23-08 09:29 PM
Response to Original message
26. Nominated.
Keep up the great work!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
hootinholler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-23-08 09:48 PM
Response to Original message
28. Anyone know the demographics of American Conservative?
I didn't see them on their website. They were founded in '02.

-Hoot
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-23-08 09:56 PM
Response to Original message
29. K&R n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ajeffersonian Donating Member (100 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-23-08 10:06 PM
Response to Original message
30. Thanks Lukery
Thanks for another of your informative posts - and the article is a must read.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ajeffersonian Donating Member (100 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-23-08 10:31 PM
Response to Original message
31. Warning - Heads up
Earlier today Larry Johnson posted some strongly worded comments attacking Sibel Edmonds on his blog site "no quarter" - accusing her of attacking Larisa Alexandrovna. Several viewers, including me, responded in Sibel's defense - it became rather ugly - especially Johnson's comments, one of which I include here "Using surrogates to carry your water is pretty chickenshit in my book." Very crude and uncalled for. It makes me very suspicious of Johnson's real motives - why did he choose to include the attack on Sibel together with his posting of the Giraldi story? Is there something in the story that he wants to re-direct us away from? Now he is directly attacking Lukery. Lukery, your response was very measured and responsible.
Something fishy going on with Johnson. Anyway - just a warning.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Oilwellian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-24-08 12:26 AM
Response to Reply #31
33. I just commented there
Sibel never said Grossman outed Valerie Plame. What she did say was Grossman warned a Turkish "agent" not to do business with Brewster Jennings because it was a CIA front company.

:kick: for Sibel.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
frog92969 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-24-08 02:00 AM
Response to Original message
35. K&R
:patriot:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ConsAreLiars Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-24-08 02:53 AM
Response to Original message
36. Sibel is a true hero, a truthteller, and nothing can be more honorable than that.
Daniel Ellsberg was one, and he praised her here - http://www.bradblog.com/?p=5260 and Daniel Berrigan was another. Daniels, and Sibels, entering the lion's den and emerging triumphant. There are many more, and the best each of us can say about our lives is that "I did something, I sacrificed something, to serve the greater good and truth." Some of us in small ways, some in greater, but Sibel's persistence in banging her head against the wall of liars and despots puts her up there with Gandhi.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Spurt Donating Member (352 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-24-08 07:45 AM
Response to Original message
38. K&R
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Sam Ervin jret Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-24-08 08:03 AM
Response to Original message
39. What does Plame say about this?
Some may have thought that people in "her circle" were giving out state nuclear secrets as well. But they were trying to get false nuclear secrets out. Disinformation if you will. I am by NO MEANS suggesting that this is the case here. I am simple asking, for my own edification and perhaps showing my own ignorance, but could more be here than meets the eye, or less?

Again I say I have no reason to believe there is more, just asking. Nor do I believe it above the possible that congressmen or an American could sell secrets to our enemies. It has been happening since the revolution itself. But we need to remember innocent until proven guilty and Waxman needs to understand that trust needs to be reinstated in the people in regards to congress. Getting this into the light of day and giving it a full hearing would go a long way toward doing that.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-24-08 08:16 AM
Response to Reply #39
40. Sibel addressed that theory.
It all had to be vetted through the Senate Judiciary committee and after that process, Grassley and Leahy said Sibel was credible.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-24-08 08:23 AM
Response to Reply #39
41. Here
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
peacetalksforall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-24-08 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #39
42. her circle? Which her? I don't get what you are saying - are you saying
that Plames people could have been giving out false nuclear secrets and that is what Sibel is talking about?

My, my, my. Even more reason for the truth.

The first thing that has to happen is that Pelosi and Reid must ask any Dems involved to resign now.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-24-08 10:31 AM
Response to Original message
43. Thanks, lukery. Handy info to bookmark.
Good resource.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
peacetalksforall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-24-08 11:20 AM
Response to Original message
45. If you only read one article in its entirety this week - read this one by Giraldi.
Edited on Thu Jan-24-08 11:20 AM by higher class
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
donkeyotay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-24-08 07:01 PM
Response to Original message
46. Damn, that's a good op-ed!
Given the recent revelations about the Justice Department and its level of political manipulation, it calls into question the validity and motivations of their gagging Edmonds.

We need some truth in this country. Those who are afraid the truth will cause too much damage should consider the damage being done by the monumental falsity of this administration. The government's credibility is shot, and the American people are paying the price.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-24-08 07:09 PM
Response to Original message
47. All I have to say is Ptech, now GoAgile. That says it all. But no one can look too close. nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-24-08 07:55 PM
Response to Reply #47
48. Are you talking about this?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-25-08 12:16 AM
Response to Reply #48
50. Yes, and their 'notable clientele'
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AikidoSoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-24-08 11:41 PM
Response to Original message
49. You're doing important work Lukery
I have a great deal of admiration for you and Sibel, and anyone who
makes the effort to assist you. Folks here on DU have also provided
some fascinating links that paint a deeply disturbing yet fascinating
picture. I think this is one of the biggest stories I've ever seen in
my lifetime.

Yesterday I sent out several articles and links about Sibel to my list
which includes several journalists both active and retired. I keep
hoping that one of them will have the guts to sink teeth into this
thing like a bulldog and not let go.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Sun Nov 03rd 2024, 07:48 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC