Fake guns may become illegal (BB guns, stage props, etc)

[The Straight Story]

TAYLOR: Fake guns may become illegal

Detroit
January 25, 2008

Waving imitation weapons may soon be illegal in the city.

The City Council is considering adopting an ordinance that would outlaw using a fake firearm to "frighten, threaten, harass, panic or annoy."

If approved at its Feb. 5 meeting, the misdemeanor could land a person a $500 fine and up to 90 days in jail.

The new ordinance -- which also would allow police to confiscate the faux guns, which include airsoft guns, BB guns, starter's pistols, hobby guns and stage props -- was inspired by an incident at the Southland Mall during the holiday shopping season.

"Several kids were out in one of the lobbies shooting each other with airsoft guns," the chief said. "It caused a real stir because people thought it was a real shooting."

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080125/NEWS02/801250419/1004

[cgrindley]

1. Why are airsoft guns legal in the first place?

someone points one at me, the chances are they'll get three .45 ACPs through the noggin.

[I work for workers]

3. Do you usually kill people waving clear plastic guns shooting rubber BBs?

Unless some idiot is trying to rob you with a toy gun, that's a pretty harsh statement.

[DS1]

8. no, it's just standard tough talk from a gun clown

they don't seem to realize how amazingly boring it is

[Richard Steele]

11. A-yup. nm

[cgrindley]

17. image google airsoft, dicksteele, image google airsoft (nt)

[uppityperson]

26. Imagine there's no Heaven, It's easy if you try, No hell below us, Above us only sky

Or are you doing haiku?

Imagine yahoo pumpkin
cgrindley
Imagine yahoo pumpkin

Is that better?

[cgrindley]

32. No one is interested in admitting that banning airsoft guns is a good idea (nt)

[DS1]

36. but then only criminals would have airsoft guns

and airsoft-gun crimes - the hundreds of them a day the pro-airsoft lobby censors from the news media - would explode into an anarchist existence of airsoft robberies, hijackings, and mass schoolyard murder.

[cgrindley]

38. That already cost one stupid kid his life, you know

he took an airsoft gun to school--the tip was painted black--he pointed it at classmates. The police arrived. He was shot dead.

[DS1]

39. he should have brought the real thing then

and defended himself more vigorously when the police did show up

[Evoman]

63. Not only that, but how many kids have died from real guns.

It's weird to me that somebody could be for banning toys, but carry the real thing.

[cgrindley]

13. Have you seen an airsoft gun? do you know what you're talking about?

At 10 feet away, at twilight, tell me this isn't real.

[DS1]

18. Is it raining? Is there a single taxi slowly driving past the dark alley

is there a cat that runs off as you pass by, and a lone person, back against the wall with an almost finished cig hanging from his fingers?


I'm just wondering how badass noir you envision the opportunities to whip out your steel justice and put a few holes in someone.

[cgrindley]

24. So... no comments on airsoft? Typical (nt)

[I work for workers]

45. I apologize. I was going to find a picture of

an old clear airsoft, but they have apparently come a long way since I played with them.

For the record, I'm one of the gun clowns derided in this thread.

Still, implying airsoft should be illegal is almost as bad of an idea as the assault weapons ban.

[cgrindley]

49. Make it a 21 year age requirement for airsoft... nothing more

that would greatly diminish the chances of a really stupid kid getting killed for waving one around at the mall. I'd prefer an outright ban. Airsoft guns really don't have a legitimate purpose that can't be fulfilled by nerf or waterballoons.

[IndianaJones]

12. this is the type of post that makes gun owners look idiotic. nt.

[cgrindley]

14. Have you any idea of what an airsoft gun looks like?

well? do you have any idea?

[IndianaJones]

19. Any idea how insane you appear for saying you'd kill someone for pointing a pellet gun at you? nt.

[cgrindley]

22. Cops legally and justifiably shoot people for holding cellphones

or even for reaching for them in their jackets. If someone is robbing you with a fucking airsoft pellet gun, they are basically asking to die.

[IndianaJones]

27. so, you'd shoot someone that pointed a toy gun or cell phone at you? nt.

[cgrindley]

34. I don't know... I'd hope not

but how are you going to tell that an airsoft gun isn't real? They should be banned.

[krispos42]

56. No, he's shoot somebody for pointing a gun at him

All guns are real and loaded until and unless proven otherwise.

Obviously, if he knew is was a fake, like a bright-orange watergun, then no, he wouldn't even reach for his gun.

Also just as obviously if he thought it was real, he'd defend his life.



You are continuing the meme that all gun-owners are bloodthirty vigilantes as a way to denigrate the idea of armed self-defense because of whatever personal reasons you have. Since this is not true, you should stop doing it.


"Heroic Consequences"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x153308

[IndianaJones]

57. what if its a kid? shoot them too? nt.

[cgrindley]

59. I don't know... possibly... it depends

what are the circumstances? am I armed? can I draw quickly and safely? what are they doing? have I been threatened with death? I sure hope nothing bad would happen. I certainly wouldn't be arrested you know. Anyone who legitimately carried a handgun and shot someone robbing them with an airsoft gun would have broken absolutely NO laws. It would be legal to shoot someone who had you at airsoft gunpoint.

[krispos42]

60. Depends on the circumstances.

A 14-year-old criminal with a gun is as dangerous as a 24-year-old criminal with a gun.

A 4-year-old? Eh, not so much.

[LanternWaste]

23. With all due respect...

With all due respect, you're simply digging your hole deeper and deeper...

[cgrindley]

30. Are airsoft guns legal in NYC? NOOOOOO.... you know why?

from wikipedia:

"Hazards of being mistaken for a real firearm
The most important factor, in distinguishing whether a gun is an airsoft replica or a real firearm, is the gun holder's intent and actions in using an airsoft gun, as with any real firearm. Safe, prudent and discrete use, along with forthright honesty will help the gun holder to avoid any legal misunderstandings. In many jurisdictions, using an imitation firearm to commit a crime (which often includes the generic term of "brandishing") carries the same penalty as if a real firearm were used because of the intent to kill or harm.
The high quality and nearly exact similarity of airsoft guns to real firearms has caused many public officials and law enforcement authorities to be alarmed at the potential misuse of airsoft guns in crimes. Despite their close resemblance to actual firearms, and the illegal use they could be put to by indiscrete or unscrupulous persons, airsoft guns can be easily distinguished from real firearms if one knows what signs to look for. Most, but not all, airsoft guns are more frail and vulnerable to scratches or breakage than "real-steel" firearms due to the use of less dense and cheaper metals and plastics.
Any time an airsoft gun or a real fire-arm is fired within hearing range, any person can easily judge that an airsoft gun is not like a real firearm because it is much less noisy and lacks the muzzle blast and flame of a chemical explosion. The exception to this is with real firearms that have been equipped with effective sound suppressors that eliminate most of the noise, blast, and bright flash of the ammunition's explosion.
The major distinction between a real firearm and an airsoft replica gun is the shape of the magazine feed area (which contains a round circular opening through which the pellets pass) and the low noise and blast produced by the airsoft gun compared to a real-gun. Thus, releasing and removing the magazine can prove at close range the distinction between an airsoft gun from a firearm.

Orange-tipped airsoft gun muzzles
There have been a few highly isolated cases of airsoft guns being mistaken for real firearms, and some cases where armed law enforcement units have responded to tips of unlawful firearm use. This is the main reason that laws require orange tips to be present on all "toy guns" (including airsoft replicas) imported into the United States
15 USC Sec. 5001 is the law 15CDR1150 is the Rule as implemented in the Federal Register -CITE- 15 USC Sec. 001 01/16/96 -EXPCITE- TITLE 15 - COMMERCE AND TRADE CHAPTER 76 - IMITATION FIREARMS -HEAD- Sec. 5001. Penalties for entering into commerce of imitation firearms .
However, the effectiveness of such measures remains open to debate, because these orange tips can be easily removed, covered, or painted away at any time. Airsoft players will generally do anything to avoid using the orange tip on their guns because it makes them more visible at a distance when they play. The majority of airsoft guns now lack orange tips even if they originally had them, even in localities that require them, so this type of legal regulation has not been enforceable nor practical.
The worst known case occurred in Longwood, Florida when 15-year-old Chris Penley threatened students with an airsoft pistol at his middle school and was subsequently shot dead when he aimed it towards an officer. The orange tip mandated by US Federal law had been painted black.<9>
Furthermore, their legal imposition means that criminals can attempt to disguise real firearms as toys by painting the tip of the barrel orange, or vice versa. Legislators usually do not realize the danger that police officers would face if confronted with real firearms that have been disguised to look like replica or airsoft guns.
Contrary to popular belief, orange tips are not required after sale of an airsoft gun in most places. The federal law only says that the orange tip must be present during importation and sale. Once the item has been transferred to private ownership, the orange tip is no longer required."

[LanternWaste]

33. I'd loan you my shovel, but...

I'd loan you my shovel, but (insert witty remark here)...

[cgrindley]

35. So tell me why airsoft shouldn't be banned in urban areas?

just one good reason, just one.

[LanternWaste]

54. I've stated neither support, not opposition to the rule

I've stated neither support, not opposition to the rule. Only that you're making yourself look a little more unhinged than is routine...

[I work for workers]

46. B/ NYC hates anything that smacks of the 2nd Amendment?

Your right, a lot of airsoft guns apparently do look real. That's no reason to ban them though.

[uppityperson]

29. That's a cell phone? Wild. I didn't know they made them like that.

[DS1]

40. hold one to your ear and people really start paying attention

[LanternWaste]

31. Remind me not to spray you with my super soaker when you pee on the furniture....

Remind me not to spray you with my super soaker when you pee on the furniture....

Wow-- you're very, very tough. Manly, even. With a hint of musk, a whiff of macho, and the right amount of body hair too, I'd imagine.

I cringe in fear of ever pointing anything at you-- your job here is done.

[cgrindley]

37. Supersoakers do not look like real guns... airsoft guns do (nt)

[Winterblues]

47. Have you ever shot a person dead for waving a gun around?

Or is it just Macho hot air?

[cgrindley]

52. No... but lots of cops have... and we're talking a city that really doesn't need this shit (nt)

[Richard Steele]

73. No, but he clearly spends a lot of time fantasizing about such an opportunity. nm

[LanternWaste]

55. That's assuming everyone...

That's assuming everyone knows what a "real" gun looks like.

If a person doesn't really know what a real gun looks like and gets sprayed with a super soaker for peeing on the furniture, who knows how many innocent bystanders could get hurt?

[cgrindley]

72. Supersoaker vs Airsoft vs Colt 1911

Supersoaker


airsoft colt m1911a1


colt m1911a1

[aikoaiko]

43. I get what you're saying, some of those toys look like real guns to the point where a

a reasonable person might think it was necessary to use lethal force when one was pointed him or her.

[cgrindley]

53. Thanks... and the city in question is Detroit... the ban is a no-brainer (nt)

[Evoman]

65. How smart is it to reach for your own gun if someone is pointing a gun at you?

If you don't know if it's real, then pulling out your own gun will make him shoot you. If you know its a fake, then why are you shooting someone?

I don't get it.

You think your billy the kid, fastest gun in the west?

[AlCzervik]

2. cool a gun thread, ok we got a smoking thread, a gun thread and now all will need

for the unholy trinity of flame is one about fast food, lets go people!

[Stewie]

4. Actually we need a booze thread.

That way we'll have Alcohol, Tobacco AND Firearms.

[AlCzervik]

5. atf!

[AndyA]

25. LOL!

Mix the three of them together, and some people will say you have a party going!

:party: :toast: :beer: :party: :toast: :beer: :party: :toast: :beer: :party: :toast: :beer: :party: :toast: :beer: :party: :toast: :beer: :party: :toast: :beer: :party: :toast: :beer: :party: :toast: :beer: :party: :toast: :beer: :party: :toast: :beer: :party: :toast: :beer: :party: :toast: :beer: :party: :toast: :beer: :party: :toast: :beer: :party: :toast: :beer: :party: :toast: :beer: :party: :toast: :beer: :party: :toast: :beer: :party: :toast: :beer:

[canadianbeaver]

6. love that pic in the avatar......she rocked!!

Every time I look at her I can't help but laugh.....priceless!!

[lumberjack_jeff]

66. There's a circumcision thread. Close enough? n/t

[gollygee]

68. We need one about breastfeeding in public

maybe one about cell phones

and kids in restaurants.

[cgrindley]

74. If you're going to breastfeed, I'm going to stare (nt)

[Touchdown]

7. Oh no you didn't.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2764632&mesg_id=2764704

:rofl:

So who's going to find a Circumcision topic? Not me!;)

[uppityperson]

20. Here you go.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2764867

[Touchdown]

21. *Smirks*

:spray:

[uppityperson]

9. Subject line is false.Illegal to "frighten, threaten, harass, panic or annoy."

Not outlaw fake guns, but outlaw using them to "frighten, threaten, harass, panic or annoy."

[The Straight Story]

10. It was the title of the article, and harass is not real clear

give em an inch and they will take a mile :)

[uppityperson]

15. Yeah, those squirt guns. Got a story for you.

Wayyyyyy back, I was a kid (duh) and Bobby Kennedy was doing a drive through my town (after John and Martin were shot). My sibs and I were highly discouraged from taking out squirt guns to watch him drive by.

Later, when Bobby was shot, I cried and cried, was the right age to understand that all the good guys were getting killed. At any rate, my folks were smarter than I was about squirtguns and having their kids survive.

[Booster]

16. Oh, the logic. Fake guns illegal, real guns, not so much.

[Bright Eyes]

51. Fake guns aren't being outlawed.

Using a fake gun to threaten someone would be illegal.

"The City Council is considering adopting an ordinance that would outlaw using a fake firearm to "frighten, threaten, harass, panic or annoy."

[WinkyDink]

28. REAL guns, however, can be waved with impunity!

[slackmaster]

42. No, that is not true

Please try to keep this discussion rational.

[aikoaiko]

48. Many states have "brandishing" laws for real firearms making it illegal to wave around a real gun

for no good reason.

[slackmaster]

41. A better solution would be to teach basic gun safety in public schools

Kids who have been properly trained in the use of REAL firearms would (IMO) be a lot less likely to shoot each other with Airsoft guns.

An Airsoft gun can cause severe eye injury. They are toys, but like other ADULT toys they are a lot more dangerous than toys made for children.

Someone who knows the rules of gun safety and gets shot by police (or anyone else) because he or she was foolish enough to brandish a gun-like object at a person bears full responsibility for the consequences. As for someone who uses a non-firearm in a threatening manner to intimidate another person, that's just plain grounds for being shot.

[Bright Eyes]

44. I just found a picture of an "airsoft gun"

They look like real guns. Make them out of orange plastic and I'll have no problem.

As for not waving a realistic fake gun at someone, thats common sense.

[jody]

50. Doesn’t Detroit already prohibit such items under article XVI of its municipal code?

ARTICLE XVI. REPLICA OR FACSIMILE FIREARMS

Sec. 38-16-1. Definitions.
(a) The word "firearm" as used in this article means any weapon from which a dangerous projectile may be propelled by using explosives, gas, or air as a means of propulsion including any shotgun, rifle, pistol, or other device of a similar character.

(b) The words "replica or facsimile firearms" as used in this article mean any devices or objects made of plastic, wood, metal, or any other material which are replicas, facsimiles, or toy versions of, or are otherwise recognizable as: a pistol, revolver, shotgun, sawed-off shotgun, rifle, machine gun, rocket launcher, starter pistol, air gun, inoperative firearm, or other firearm. As used in this article, the words "replica or facsimile firearms" shall include, but are not limited to, toy guns, theatrical production props, hobby models (either in kit form or fully assembled), or any other devices which might reasonably be perceived to be real firearms.
(Ord. No. 10-88, § 1, 4-20-88)

Sec. 38-16-2. Possession; sale; advertising; exceptions.
(a) It is unlawful for any person to possess or transfer replica or facsimile firearms within the corporate limits of the City of Detroit.

(b) It is unlawful for any person to display, market for sale, or sell replica or facsimile firearms within the corporate limits of the City of Detroit.

(c) It is unlawful for any person to place an advertisement in any newspaper, magazine, handbill, sign, poster, other publications, or other advertising media with knowledge that the purpose of the advertisement, in whole or in part, is to promote within the corporate limits of the City of Detroit the possession, transfer, or sale of objects designed and manufactured as replica or facsimile firearms.

(d) The provisions of this section shall not apply to replica or facsimile firearms which, because of their distinct color, exaggerated size or permanently affixed international blaze orange markings on the receiver portions of the product and blaze orange plug recessed no more than six (6) millimeters from the muzzle end of the barrel, cannot reasonably be perceived to be real firearms.

(e) The possession, manufacture, marketing, distribution, and sale of replica or facsimile firearms are permitted if such devices are possessed, manufactured, marketed, distributed, or sold (1) solely for subsequent transportation in intrastate, interstate, or foreign commerce or (2) solely for lawful use in theatrical productions including motion picture, television, and stage productions. Such devices shall not be displayed to the general public or sold for other uses within the corporate limits of the City of Detroit regardless of where manufactured or purchased.
(Ord. No. 10-88, § 1, 4-20-88)

Sec. 38-16-3. Brandishing.
(a) It is unlawful for any person to draw, exhibit, or brandish replica or facsimile firearms or simulate the drawing, exhibiting, or brandishing of replica or facsimile firearms, in a rude, threatening, or angry manner with intent to fright, vex, harass, or annoy any other person.
(b) It is unlawful for any person, with knowledge that a peace officer, fire fighter, emergency medical technician, or paramedic is engaged in the performance of his or her duties, to draw, exhibit, or brandish replica or facsimile firearms in their presence.
(Ord. No. 10-88, § 1, 4-20-88)

Sec. 38-16-4. Civil forfeiture.
Any replica or facsimile firearms possessed, or sold, or displayed with the intent to sell, or manufactured within the corporate limits of the City of Detroit with intent to sell in violation of this article, or used in a rude, threatening or angry manner, shall be seized and forfeited to the City of Detroit.

Any person who shall be convicted of violating any of the provisions of this article shall be deemed guilty of a misdemeanor and shall be punished by a fine not less than one hundred dollars ($100.00) but not greater than five hundred dollars ($500.00).
(Ord. No. 10-88, § 1, 4-20-88)

[krispos42]

58. And of course, an Airsoft ad appears at the bottom of the page!

:-0

[RL3AO]

61. Hmm. I thought it was a federal law already to frighten people with fake firearms.

[LeftHander]

62. Thous shalt deny me of thy false pistol only when...

like poor Yoric I am worm fodder...for when fake guns are outlawed only bad actors will have fake guns.

[Duer 157099]

64. Fake drugs are illegal, so why not?

Now if only they would make fake food illegal.

[Jed Dilligan]

67. Yeah, it's against the law to sell gank

I wonder why this is being discussed as a gun ban when what's being banned is brandishing. That seems reasonable. There are excellent nickel stage guns out there that are equally effective in a robbery until someone calls your bluff.

[Duer 157099]

69. What's gank?

:shrug:

[Jed Dilligan]

70. Slang for anything passed off as a controlled substance

pieces of soap sold as cocaine rocks, gardenia leaves + rubber cement for fake weed, etc.

[Duer 157099]

71. Ah. Yeah, that's right, selling those things carry the same penalty

It's fuckin' crazy.

[CRF450]

75. If I recall correctly, airsoft guns have bright orange tips on the barrel, BY LAW

Apperantly that isn't enough to help people see the difference between those and real guns. And why the hell would some kids be out in plain public sight shooting eachother with them?! Fuckin idiots. I hope they dont start coming after paintball guns.