Owner of ritzy shop sues homeless for $1 million

[deminks]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070122/od_nm/newyork_homeless_dc

A Manhattan antique shop owner's lawsuit against transients who camp in front of his store is generating debate about what to do with New York's homeless, many of whom spend winter nights on the street.

Karl Kemp, owner of the posh Karl Kemp & Associates Antiques, Ltd. on Madison Avenue, sued three men and a woman for $1 million earlier this month, alleging they scare away customers when they drink alcohol, urinate and warm themselves above a heating duct in front of his shop.

Nearly 35,000 people spent Wednesday night in New York City homeless shelters. About 3,800 shunned shelters and slept outside in 2006, according to city data.

"(Kemp) could have called any number of homeless service organizations that reach out to people on the street," said Shelly Nortz, deputy executive director for policy for the Coalition for the Homeless. "Suing them for $1 million is just wrong."

(end snip)

Typical. Move them 100 feet away and the problem doesn't exist anymore. Out of sight, out of mind. Smirky's base at work again.

[babylonsister]

1. This story really repulsed me; Kemp is sub-human.

Instead of trying to do something to help the homeless, he sues them? And what would the point of that be? :grr: :banghead:

[Robbien]

2. Sue people without a dime? How does that make sense?

I expect this is some kind of publicity stunt. The rich elite advertising they are the biggest sob thereby attracting more of the rich elite.

[YOY]

8. It sends them to debtors' prisons?

Oh wait. They don't exist anymore. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debtors_Prison

What a shame...I thought we could finally use a RW institution for some semblance of good.

[Warpy]

13. Um they're actually coming back

For profit hospitals have jailed people who have missed a scheduled payment on exorbitant bills.

[YOY]

18. Sad...if only we had affordable or social healthcare

Debtors' prisons were abolished for their complete catch-22 hypocracy, were they not?

[Cassandra]

15. I think that for a lawsuit in NY...

it's required to pick a number; he's not expecting to collect any money, he just wants the guy to move.
On a more practical note, why doesn't he do what some shop owners have done along Madison Avenue; pay the guy to act as a night guard by sleeping on his doorstep or grate as long as he is gone in the morning? Do that enough and he will be able to afford a room somewhere. Unfortunately, it sounds like what the homeless man needs is one of the assisted living arrangements in the city where he can get some mental health services. If the lawsuit gets the city to help with that, it might be worthwhile, even though it seems (and probably is) heartless.

[Rabrrrrrr]

3. It's about time someone sued the homeless into poverty.

Lording it over the rest of us with their living-in-the-street ways, rubbing their portable cardboard box mansions in our faces.





:sarcasm:

[Waya]

4. Disgusting dirtbag........

.......gawd, I hate rich people............

[Irreverend IX]

5. You flunked Public Relations 101, Karl.

How do you think people will perceive you after reading this story?

[Rosemary2205]

6. lawsuits are how things get done in this country.

Who knows if this guy is a homeless hater or not, but obviously he's at his wits end trying to figure out how to operate a business in peace where someone else isn't using the entrance to the place as a toilet.

[lectrobyte]

7. If you had a million bucks, you might be homeless due to mental illness or

emotional problems, I suppose. Other than that, I guess they will be auctioning kidneys on ebay soon... Someone's got a cash register where their heart should be.

[no_hypocrisy]

9. An interesting development has come out of this story.

Apparently the family of the man being sued has been searching for him for about 35 years. He divorced himself from his well-to-do father and family over a dispute about money at that time and literally dropped off the planet. The family saw the story and his name and want to make contact, but he's apparently refusing to have anything to do with them.

[treestar]

10. You can't get blood out of a stone

What a dope, he must be doing it to make a statement only; he knows he can't collect any judgment. Which may violate the court rules against filing cases that are for purposes other than to collect.

[EllenZ]

11. Before it got this far,

unless NYC is different than every other city in the USA, there are laws about urinating in public and loitering. I find it hard to believe that the local cops would ignore a complaint about this, unless as in the bad old days mindset, the shop owner did not offer the cops enough money to remove the problem. Or the store owner could have hired his own security to roust anyone who camped out in front of the store. That may not be completely legal, but the homeless will have difficultly in pressing a complaint.

Working with the poor as a nurse previously, I have found that the homeless set themselves up where the cops let them. And some of the homeless prefer being homeless, they will refuse shelter that is offered.

I know that I have gone places that were "exclusive" for the rich and been illegally chased away. Try walking on the oceanfront in South Florida where all the condos are. It may be federal public land below the high water mark, but see how quickly the cops throw you off the beach if you do not "belong".

[Sapphire Blue]

12. "And some of the homeless prefer being homeless"

No, they certainly don't want a home of their own, to be able to afford the rent & utilities on said home, now, do they?
:sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm:

"And some of the homeless prefer being homeless" :argh:

Please tell me that you no longer work w/poor people!

[Dora]

17. Well, actually...

My husband worked for the St. Vincent de Paul society for five years doing outreach to the homeless. This outreach ranged from a simple change of clothes/shoes, a shower, a haircut, to job placement, financial assitance to travel to where family lived, drug/alcohol counseling, identification/welfare/disability issues assistance, and housing location assistance. He was on the front line of homeless outreach, and can tell you many stories - some good, but most of them sad.

It is absolutely true that some of the homeless population prefer being homeless over the challenges that maintaining a home can create.

Your sincerity is apparent, but your indignation is unfounded.

[Sapphire Blue]

21. My "indignation is unfounded."???

Your opinion, my dear.

"It is absolutely true that some of the homeless population prefer being homeless over the challenges that maintaining a home can create." What are those challenges? Why do those challenges exist?

Universal Declaration of Human Rights

Article 25

1. Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.

2. Motherhood and childhood are entitled to special care and assistance. All children, whether born in or out of wedlock, shall enjoy the same social protection.

http://www.unhchr.ch/udhr/lang/eng.htm

[Dora]

26. Yes, everyone has the right to food and a roof.

That doesn't mean that everyone is going to exercise that right, Sapphire. You can cut and paste as much as you want, but that doesn't change the reality that some people do not want or are not able to do what is required to live the way that you, I, or many other Americans live.

Some people really do prefer to sleep under a bush in the riverbed and wait for each month's disability check to be sent to their PO box. Some people really don't want to be told what to do and refuse to work, even if keeping a job would result in a room of one's own. Many times my husband would come home to tell me about yet another journeyman who refused all offers of work (at journeyman's wages, too) or shelter, saying "just give me my shower and breakfast."

"What are those challenges? Why do those challenges exist?" That's either a ridiculous rhetorical effort, or an appallingly naive question.

The challenges the homeless are faced with are so myriad and complex that you know your question is ridiculous. Proving you are who you say you are when you lack all identification. Coping with mental illness, coping with irregular medication or no medication at all. Coping with alcoholism, addiction, obsessive thinking. Coping with PTSD. Coping with coping. For goddess's sake, I just had this very conversation at my dining room table yesterday with a friend who was living out of his car three years ago. And he had a car and a network of friends and family that loves him. It took him a year to get to a place where he was functioning fully on his own, and he flat-out said to us that he hated the hell out of the busybodies who wanted to turn him into their personal project. If you ask a drug-addicted mentally ill person with no ID, no network, and no skills, "Which would you rather have, your monthly disability check or a year of intervention with a guaranteed apartment at the end of that year?" SOME of those people are going to say, "Welll, the weather is fine 10 months out of 12, and I have a can of mace and a knife for protection, I have a corner of my own, and a series of stash spots all over town. Give me my check and leave me the fuck alone."

And yes, it is my opinion that your indignation at the post was unfounded, and that opinion remains unchanged. Likewise, your indignation at my effort to share another perspective is also meritless.

[Sapphire Blue]

33. You know, if you were looking down your nose at me from behind the counter, imposing your...

... 'restrictions' on your 'assistance', I too, would tell you to "Give me my check and leave me the fuck alone."

Your attititude is one of the challenges faced by people needing help.

[Dora]

34. My attitude? What attitude?

Looking down my nose? :wtf:

Please explain why you are so angry at ME, and please tell me what I have said that is untrue.

[EFerrari]

29. Why indeed? Are we talking about challenges like illness?

Unemployment? Age? Children?

I've never met a homeless person who wouldn't prefer to be housed and healthy. :shrug:

[Sapphire Blue]

35. According the 'experts' here, there are lots of homeless people who prefer homelessness!

:silly: Silly us for not recognizing that!

:sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm:

[Dora]

36. "Some" does not equate with "lots."

And you have not yet shown me where I am wrong or speaking untruths, and why you are angry at me.

[bobbolink]

48. I repeat, AFTER you've been homeless on the street for severall months, get back to us.

Until then, you don't know what you're saying, and sneering at Sapphire Blue is going to get you nothing but indignation directed towards YOU.

Grow a heart.

[Dora]

51. I do know what I am saying, and I am not sneering at anybody.

I am speaking the truth, I am not peppering my posts with meaningless sarcasm, or accusing anyone of heartlessness.

Denying that some people choose homelessness rather than participate in society the same way that you or I do is appallingly naive.

[bobbolink]

52. Since you're addressing a person who, until a week ago was homeless, I

suggest you show a bit more humility.

AND, I'll take the information from an expert like Mitch Snyder a bit more seriously than from someone who is parroting the RW line.

[Rosemary2205]

56. I don't understand

you deserve the velvet gloves because you were homeless for while? It's a shame you were homeless and I'm glad your situation is improving but to expect no one to disagree with you because of it is just expecting too much. IMHO.

We all have our unique experiences. You don't know what mine or Dora's or Ellen's are. To claim we are heartless, lack humility, spew a hateful RW line or whatever negative claim you want to make, simply because we have interacted with SOME (not all) homeless persons that were homeless for completely different reasons than you were is just unreal.

[bobbolink]

59. No, I "deserve" the boxing gloves.

You, also, may grow a heart.

Byebye

[Dora]

58. "I suggest you show a bit more humility." WTF???

I am imparting knowledge gained from witnessing my husband's work experience working directly with a very large and diverse homeless population in Phoenix, Arizona. If you've ever lived in Phoenix, you know what the homeless situation there is like, and you know from where I (and my husband) are speaking.

I came home early today, and I felt bothered by the hostility I had encountered in this thread. I was wondering if in fact I was wrong in what I was saying. So I asked my husband about his experiences of seven years ago. (He stopped working in homeless outreach when he left Arizona in 1999 to join me in Texas.)

Indeed, he told me, that is correct. He reminded me about Gordon (who I remember clearly, even now), who preferred hooking and booze/crack and drifting to facing his demons - addiction and only god knows what trauma. Not for lack of trying - he was a master welder, and at the time my husband was trying to help him, he could have been earning $35 an hour doing that. My husband saw Gordon's work - he was a genius with a welding torch, and worked with artists who did large-scale pieces and needed his clean weld lines. He could play guitar, hold up his end of a dynamic conversation on many subjects, was bright, funny, and attractive. But after each try at a halfway house, a shelter, a good job, you name it, he kept going out onto the street. WHY? Because he preferred life as a drifter to life coping with whatever problems were haunting him. Debt? Trauma? Arrest Warrants? I don't know, and neither did my husband, and Gordon stopped coming around. And Gordon wasn't the only recidivist homeless person my husband worked with.

My husband told me also about Sam, a homeless man he encountered at a gas station here in Austin a couple of years ago. "How long have you been out?" is a question my husband will sometimes ask men who approach him asking for money. Sam told him he'd been "out" on the streets for fourteen years. FOURTEEN YEARS. Sam was 34 years old, and he also told my husband about how he protected himself, where he first became homeless (Michigan, brrr), and why he liked Austin. He talked about the dangers of being part of the homeless community - you not only have to protect yourself from other homeless people, you have to protect yourself from hateful rednecks who go out looking for homeless people to beat up. He told my husband that he preferred this life to one where he was being told what to do. Yeah, it was hard, but it was all right for him. My husband gave him $5, and that was that.

Or there's my friend T., who I referenced in one of my posts upthread, who lived out of his car at a rest stop on I-35 for three weeks. He'd been kicked out of his apartment by a roommate, had no income, no money, and little resources (or so he thought). He had his own demons, and getting out of his car and back into an apartment meant dealing with those demons in a way that meant changing his life. He was willing to do that. Some people are not. This is my point.

NOWHERE have I said that homeless people enjoy being homeless. Nowhere have I said that homelessness is easy, or fun, or that homeless people deserve what they get, or that if they'd only apply themselves a little harder then they wouldn't be homeless. NOWHERE have I been dismissive, shitty, snotty, haughty, prideful. I am who I am, I am not who you think I am.

You don't have to impose your personal trauma on my story just because my experience doesn't validate yours. People have unique experiences, and not everyone's experience will be the same as mine or yours. You were homeless? I'm glad to hear that you're not any more. Homelessness sucks. Hunger and exposure to the elements and hostile homedwellers is a difficult life. But even so, some people will still choose the hard life of homelessness to whatever it is they think constitutes living a self-reliant (or dependent on social services) life under a roof with four walls, windows, a door, and the free will to come and go. No matter how much we try to help them, some people will still turn away.


If we're swapping suggestions, then I suggest you reread the DU rules about civility.

[skygazer]

64. You are looking at this in the most simplistic way possible

And that's what generates the hostility because it's very frustrating when people can't see beyond the surface.

When a homeless person is in the situation you describe, it IS easier for them to remain homeless because the alternative is frightening and overwhelming. The idea of intervention and being substance free is quite frightening - why do you think so many people who have all the wealth in the world continue to abuse drugs or alcohol even when they have every opportunity to kick the habit? Because the idea of going without is terrifying.

Multiply that a thousandfold and you have the addict on the street. That's their cushion, their comfort. As is the (false) security they have among the other street people who know them, who may even respect them, who are a known quantity.

Change is frightening to most people - look at the fact that many long-term inmates in prison would say they'd rather stay in than be released. Does that mean they'd rather be in prison than have a comfortable home? No, not really. It means the steps in between the two are frightening and seemingly insurmountable and when you add in the fact that there is precious little apparatus in place to assist in that transition - except for people who have no understanding of what it's like and only a dogged determination to save the world - it makes it even harder.

To take at face value the statement that a homeless person would rather be homeless is to ignore the reality of their situation. I've known many homeless people, not as a social worker but as a casual aquaintance. They do have dreams and they're not of cardboard boxes on the street. But those dreams are so far from their reality that it's easier and seems safer for many to continue with the status quo.

[Dora]

66. Skygazer: Who is being simplistic?

Is it me, or is it those who I've ticked off?

And that's a serious question. You're saying I don't get the nuances and difficulties of homelessness - did you read all my posts here? Did you see where I acknowledge the difficulties of addiction, trauma, mental illness? Did you see that my knowledge comes by way of witnessing my husband's work dispensing goods and services to the homeless population of Phoenix? And this work of his was not feel-good volunteerism: this was 40 hours a week at $6.50 an hour, and every day his well-being was in danger because of the anger and hostility that some of his clients dealt out.

Some people do not want an address. Some people do not want relationships. Some people do not want to be found. What started this whole ugly mess of a "dialogue" was that somebody else said the same thing, and was met with hostility. I affirmed the offending statement as truth, and I've been met with twice the hostility. I am not the person who is simplifying homelessness here.

Everybody has dreams, but not everybody has the means to follow or live them. Goodness gracious - do you honestly think I don't know this? I'm quite surprised that you would think so little of me.

Peace.

[skygazer]

70. It's not a matter of thinking little of you

It's that you seem to choose to accept the idea that when a homeless person says they prefer it that way, they mean it in the larger sense. I don't believe that's so. I think the issue here is that there is nothing substantial in place that is allowing them to pursue those dreams. The resources available for the homeless are sporadic and uncertain and vary wildly from place to place. They are not "user-friendly", regardless of the good work done by your husband and so many others. It's not their fault - it's the fault of our entire infrastructure that does not make eradicating poverty and homelessness a priority.

I simply believe that if the majority of these people were given clear and helpful options that showed consistency and success for others, they would be much more likely to step off that frightening cliff and take the chance of change. I refust to accept that people who are willing to accept the status quo for fear of the uncertainty of change actually prefer it that way, regardless of what they may say (I know all about putting a brave face and a chip on your shoulder out for the public to see. It's another survival mechanism).

Of course there are people who for reasons of their own don't want an address, or relationships or to be found. But far more people say it than mean it, in my opinion.

I meant nothing personal.

[Dora]

72. I'm not choosing to accept anything. Just saying what's true.

I'm simply speaking from my husband's experience, and as a result I find myself derided and scorned and told to "speak with humility." (The irony of that blew my mind, BTW.)

Of course you're right - and I don't disagree with you. But I'm speaking the truth too, and these two truths coexist, which is apparently problematic for my antagonists in this thread.

I know it's not personal, but it begins to feel like it when what I say is ignored, and I am accused of ugliness.

Thank you for a reasoned dialogue.

[Ladyhawk]

68. There are layers upon layers when it comes to the tough issues.

I think you nailed it, skygazer.

Right now my life is so fucking miserable. I'm on disability and have to kiss up to right-wing/fundy family so I don't end up on the streets. Part of me wants to just sever ties so I can be "free"--but at what price? I did it for six months and nearly didn't make it. Then there's the other part of me that loves my family and doesn't want to sever ties at all.

What it boils down to is I don't want to live this way, constantly biting my tongue and pretending to be someone I'm not. I don't want to live in constant danger of ending up homeless, either. Those seem to be my only two choices given my chronic health issues. Recently, it's become absolutely intolerable. I had dreams and as I grow older and sicker I see them slipping away. And I don't think there's a damn thing I can do about it.

[Rosemary2205]

19. Not all homeless are that way because of poverty.

I personally know someone living on the streets who has MUCH more wealth than I do. His family tried to have him committed to rehab against his will and he bolted. Even in a wealthy family, getting the system to support committing someone to forced rehab or a mental health facility is often next to impossible. It isn't uncommon for the one who is ill to run away and disappear into the streets.

There are so many different reasons why people become homeless. Money or lack of a place to turn for help is not always the reason.

[Sapphire Blue]

23. You "personally know someone living on the streets who has MUCH more wealth..."

Is it his money or his family's money? Does he want to be homeless, or does he want to get away from his family, to get away from being involuntarily committed? Can he access said money w/o his family coming after him? Do you honestly believe that he prefers being on the street to having a safe & secure home of his own?

[Rosemary2205]

28. It's HIS money.

Yes, he accesses his money. His choice to be homeless has absolutely NOTHING to do with money. He can afford pretty much anythign he wants. Your post that I responded to did not consider whether or not he WANTS a home - it had to do with being able to AFFORD a home.

He is just one example I sited. Certainly most of the homeless have financial issues. But not ALL of them do. Which is why working with the homeless involves so much more than just throwing money at the "problem" and does require one on one individual attention.

The sad fact is, there are just some people that are unwilling to be reached regardless of the financial help available.

[Sapphire Blue]

31. My comment was:

"No, they certainly don't want a home of their own, to be able to afford the rent & utilities on said home, now, do they?

I didn't say that money was the only thing required; along w/money a support network is vital.

The sad fact is that, along w/money, such a support network is lacking, often non-existent.

[Cassandra]

20. In the early days of trying to deal with the homeless in NY...

it was thought that simply providing an apartment was enough and it is for many but some people just can't get it together to pay their bills on time and manage all the stuff necessary to live on their own and they were getting evicted anyway. Many of the shelters are dangerous or have rules that some people can't or won't follow. There has been an increase in assisted living hotels with mental health and outreach and job training for the homeless, which is working better. Ben & Jerry's has set up scoop shops in some of them to give some of the residents a job where they can practice their job skills in a safer environment.
Dealing with the homeless is more complicated than it might appear.

[Sapphire Blue]

24. A support network is VITAL!

Lack of affordable housing & low wages make it difficult for an organized person to keep a stable home. Throw a few more difficulties into the mix, and it can feel insurmountable.

:toast: to Ben & Jerry's... and to other businesses w/similar programs!

[EFerrari]

32. It is. That's very true. n/t

[Justpat]

37. The man interviewed for the article actually said he

preferred to live on the street. There is a shelter right down
the street from the antique store he camps out in front of.
He doesn't like it there.

There is a grate that releases hot air in front of the shop
and thats why he hangs out there.

He keeps his clothes in front of another man's apartment.
The owner of the apartment lets him keep it there.

The homeless man said homelessness was OK with the Messiah
so it is OK with him.

He is obviously mentally ill. The shop owner says he chases
people away from his shop. He told a pregnant woman to go to
hell and harasses his customers.

How do you balance compassion for the homeless mentally ill with
some sense of understanding for the man trying to run a business?

He sued the homeless man as a last ditch effort to get someone to
do something about him camping out in front of his place of business.

[Sapphire Blue]

38. Which man interviewed for the article are you talking about?

I didn't read this in the article:

"The man interviewed for the article actually said he preferred to live on the street... He doesn't like it there <the shelter>."

If you're speaking of another article where one of the homeless persons was interviewed, please post a link. Thanks.

He may prefer living on the street to staying in a shelter, considering all the problems associated w/shelters. And a shelter is NOT a home.

"The shop owner says he chases people away from his shop." That's the case in cities all over the country; people don't want to be faced w/the reality of homelessness, so the cities pass laws making certain activities illegal, ensuring the comfort of their businesses' patrons. Businesses provide income; homeless people do not. Homeless people don't seem to matter.

"How do you balance compassion for the homeless mentally ill with some sense of understanding for the man trying to run a business?" Perhaps a real support network would be a good start.

[Justpat]

39. I'm talking about the homeless man in this article.

It was in all the NY papers a few days ago.

[Sapphire Blue]

42. No 'homeless man' was interviewed in the OP article.

I haven't read "all the NY papers a few days ago." Can you provide a link? Thanks.

[Justpat]

47. New York Daily News

http://www.nydailynews.com/01-19-2007/news/local/story/489913p-412641c.html

[Sapphire Blue]

49. Cohen's & Kemp's portrayals of Greenlee are VASTLY different!

Cohen calls for justice for Greenlee; Kemp files a mean-spirited frivolous lawsuit to get him away from his place of business. What a world.

And 'the Preacher' just wants to be left alone.

Thanks for the link, Old Broad.

[Justpat]

50. You're welcome.

It was in all three papers here in NY last week.

The shop keeper was soundly ridiculed for his lawsuit.

I think Mr. Cohen is a remarkable man.
He and his housekeeper seem to have a protective attitude
toward Mr. Greenlee.

[bobbolink]

40. Hey, look here, you do-gooder! I've never had so much fun in my life as I've

had being homeless, so stick that in your pipe and smoke it!!!

REally, I'm having a BALL!

How DARE you assume that life is hard for homeless people!!



OK, I've really made myself sick this time.... :puke:

"Believing that homeless people are homeless by choice may help one to sleep better at night, but it bears little resemblance to truth."
Mitch Snyder

[Sapphire Blue]

44. "Believing that homeless people are homeless by choice may help one to sleep better at night, but...

... it bears little resemblance to truth." - Mitch Snyder

:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

[bobbolink]

45. Beautiful, isn't it? I have his book, if I can ever get my stuff!!!

He cared so much for homeless people, and took our pain to heart, that he ended up killing himself, also. :cry:

I had the honor of meeting him, and he complimented me on my own book. Really, he was a saint, in my estimation.

[Phillycat]

55. Your experience is not the same as all homeless people's experience.

You are posting on an internet website. Your mind still works, you are probably not addicted to drugs, you are probably not mentally ill. There is a man who lives on the streets in my neighborhood. Every time a "code blue" happens (temperatures below 20 degrees, I think), the cops come around and round up all the homeless and force them into a shelter. My friend Lynn works in the shelter that this guy was put into. He insisted that he be allowed to get out. They wouldn't let him. They tried to reason with him. Eventually they sedated him. When he awoke, he started screaming again about being released. When they didn't immediately respond, he tried to stab one of the workers with a piece of mirror he had smuggled in.

I've seen him all over my neighborhood. He craps in the middle of the sidewalk with his pants down. He talks to himself at the top of his lungs and lunges at people who walk by. He is absolutely filthy. He refuses to use the showers when taken to a shelter. He doesn't WANT to live indoors. He wants to live on the streets. It's the truth.

I will suggest to you also that you read "The Mole People" for more information.

[Phillycat]

54. No, the poster is right. Some do. Read "The Mole People"

for more information.

[Hardrada]

43. There is an area in Dubuque IA where you can't leaflet

door to door even though the streets are not fenced off. If you try to leaflet the police will use their valuable taxpayer supported time to chase you away even if you are not using the doorbells of the wealthy who live there.

[bobbolink]

46. AFter you've been living on the streets for a few months, then get back to us on this.

Until then, it's clear you don't GET IT.

[EllenZ]

61. Just because I am well off now, does not mean I always was.

My Dad was killed in Vietnam while I was a kid. My Mom drank herself to death. I worked my way through High School (Far Rockaway HS, NYC) so I had clothes,food and a place to stay. I put myself through college working as an exotic dancer. No one GAVE me anything.

I have worked (I am an RN) for missions in South America and the Middle East for less than my expenses. I have and still do donate my services to my church (both as an RN and a CPA), mostly at either the free clinic or the shelter.

There are some homeless people who just will not accept any other life. Some are ill (mentally and/or physically) but others are not. While it may seem awful for people in the USA to be living like that, it is their choice.

It is very clear that YOU do not get it.

[Dora]

62. Welcome to DU.

And thanks for returning to the thread. I wondered if you had been chased off.

[me b zola]

73. I hope you no longer work with people that need compassion & empathy

Where should the homeless urinate? Most shops/restaurants that are located in an area that have a homeless population have signs saying that restrooms are for paying customers. In Europe there are public restrooms, but not on this side of the pond.

Your disgust for the homeless shows in your post. :thumbsdown:

If you are ever down & out, may you be treated with the kindness, empathy, & compassion that you deny your fellow citizens.

[Sapphire Blue]

14. This is THE definition of 'frivolous lawsuit'... filed by one heartless greedy SOB.

[gratuitous]

16. I suppose higher taxes for ritzy shop owners is out of the question

After all, more public money available to treat mental illness, create programs to help homeless people transition from the street to more mainstream living, and financial assistance until they can be self-sustaining (all of which has a proven track record of working), would mean Mr. Kemp might have to part with a couple hundred dollars a year in taxes. Might as well live in the Stalinist Soviet Union, huh Mr. Kemp?

[Hidden Stillness]

69. A Good Idea; A Business Tax

The problem of poverty and homelessness will never be solved until you restore all the Federal programs and departments that used to help with these situations, and help people, and remove the threat of the whims of property-owners and up-and-down levels of donations to charity. These things have to be safe, permanent, and available "dispassionately"--that is, not uncaring, but a standard, fixed program funded for the need, not reliant on whether or not you can find a kind person to help, and not reliant on whether or not you even had anyone to turn to. There has to be a structure of response to poverty, low-cost housing, mental illness, and all the rest of the problem, that there used to be until sunshiny optimist Reagan killed them all.

You might remember the true story from the optimistic Reagan '80s, when the heartless rich bastard "solved the problem" of homeless people in Washington, D.C. gathering around sewer covers and other vents and grates that had heat coming out of them, by covering all vents and grates all along all streets. This was typical of the Reagan Republicans. Low-income housing, and all incentives to build any, were severely cut, as was Section 8 housing, and all programs for the poor, shelters, etc., etc. You might remember the HUD scandal, where it was discovered, (after the budget for the Department of Housing and Urban Development, the main source of funding for all poverty and homelessness programs, was first cut by three-fourths, 75%), then, was being illegally used as a slush-fund and payoff machine, for rich corporate Republican contributors. The tax code was completely changed, and the beginning of the shift of all taxes onto the middle class and poor--(for the first time ever, for example, the tips of underpaid waitresses were taxed)--and the cutting of all wealth/stock/luxury/inheritance, etc., taxes, gutting the whole budget and introducing the present unbearable strain on the vast majority of people.

As long as there is no general, institutional system of help for poor people, but only the personal responses of individual people to other individual people, then the situation will never be solved. Of course, with corporate Republicans, they don't want it solved. They want to create the poor, by their regressive economic policies--then have them removed!

[RedStateShame]

22. "Today's WORST PERSON IN THE WORLD!!!"

I'm taking bets.

[bobbolink]

60. Oh, I wish! I'd really like to see Keith name some of these greedy bastards!

:thumbsup:

[no_hypocrisy]

25. Who is Roger Greenlee?

"We've been looking for him for 30 years. I'm glad he's safe and that people care about him. Quite frankly, I thought he was dead."

Sparks hadn't seen Greenlee since he abandoned her in the late 1970s. She learned he was alive on Friday while watching "Live With Regis & Kelly."


http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/490861p-413407c.html

[Javaman]

27. Welcome to the legecy of Guilliani's New York. nt

[dogday]

30. They don't want to bother their beautiful minds

having to deal with "those homless people". :sarcasm:

[bobbolink]

41. Could we please have some recommendations on this, before time runs out?

If ever a topic is worthy of being on the greatest page, this one certainly is.

THANX!

[Mz Pip]

53. Collecting should be interesting

The Goldman's haven't gotten a dime out of OJ and he has money.

Seems to be a PR stunt.

Mz Pip
:dem:

[VOX]

57. The sad truth is that Karl Kemp has donated to Democratic candidates...

http://www.newsmeat.com/fec/bystate_detail.php?st=NY&last=Kemp&first=Karl
Namely Chuck Schumer, Hillary Clinton and the Democratic Senatorial Campaign Committee.

The right-wing bloggers should have a field day with this one, since it has plug-and-play adaptability with the "party of hate" and "elitist" themes that they love to spew.

If he is a registered Democrat, I would ask Karl Kemp to sever his party affiliation immediately, because his actions are an affront to Democratic ideals.

I mean, WWJD with this guy? Turn him into a snail? :grr:

[Justpat]

63. update

http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/491177p-413618c.html

Mr. Greenlee's son read the story of his father in the paper.
He has been trying to find him for some time.


I hope it works out for everyone.

[Sapphire Blue]

65. Thanks for the update, Old Broad!

I hope it works out, too.

[Dora]

67. That's good to know.

As someone who's had a family member disappear for many years, I know how good it feels to learn they are alive - no matter what their personal condition is.

I hope the Greenlee family finds joy.

[Rex]

71. A sign or indicator as to where we stand as a society in 2007.

Very telling IMO.

[Blue_Tires]

74. horrible

honestly, how much is he paying an attorney to file that suit? for all practical reasons, even if you hated the homeless in front of your business, it's nothing to pass them a few bucks to get them to move on....

any sane judge will laugh this out of court

[Jed Dilligan]

75. So why do over 10% of NYC's homeless "shun shelters"?

The poverty pimps in social services will say it's because they can't drink or use drugs in the shelters. But that's a load of shit. The shelters in NY, like those in most American cities, are Hobbesian nightmare worlds controlled by criminal gangs and more dangerous than any prison. You can drink and drug all you want in there, but if you're old, young, ill, or in any other way vulnerable, you will be robbed, raped, or worse. This guy should be suing the city for not providing safe nighttime shelter for these people, which I believe the city's own laws require it to do.