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Punishment does not earn rewards or cooperation, study finds

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swag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-19-08 04:26 PM
Original message
Punishment does not earn rewards or cooperation, study finds
Economist Mark Thoma linked to this academic press release in the context of discussing those who would punish the people responsible for the mortgage mess even at a cost to themselves:

'Winners don’t punish,' say the authors of a forthcoming Nature paper

CAMBRIDGE, Mass. -- Individuals who engage in costly punishment do not benefit from their behavior, according to a new study published this week in the journal Nature by researchers at Harvard University and the Stockholm School of Economics.

The group, led by Martin A. Nowak of Harvard's Program for Evolutionary Dynamics, Department of Mathematics, and Department of Organismic and Evolutionary Biology, examined cooperation among subjects playing a modified version of the Prisoner's Dilemma. This game captures the fundamental tension between the interests of the individual and the group, and is the classic paradigm for cooperation. The study found that the use of punitive behavior correlates strongly with reduced individual payoff, and bestows no benefit on the group as a whole.

"Put simply, winners don’t punish," says co-author David G. Rand of Harvard's Program for Evolutionary Dynamics and Department of Systems Biology. "Punishment can lead to a downward spiral of retaliation, with destructive outcomes for everybody involved. The people with the highest total payoffs do not use costly punishment."

"Costly punishment," the type of punitive behavior studied by Nowak and his colleagues, refers to situations where a punisher is willing to incur a cost in order to penalize someone else. Other researchers have suggested that costly punishment can compel cooperation in one-time interactions where individuals need not worry about reputation or retaliation -- a scenario Nowak and his colleagues found unrealistic, since, as they write, "most of our interactions are repeated and reputation is always at stake."

"There's been a lot of previous work on the use of punishment in cooperation games, but the focus has not been on situations where individuals use punishment in the context of ongoing interactions," says co-author Anna Dreber of the Stockholm School of Economics and the Program for Evolutionary Dynamics at Harvard. "We make the setting more realistic by having subjects play repeated games and introducing costly punishment as one of several options."

Dreber, Rand, Nowak, and Drew Fudenberg of Harvard's Department of Economics recruited 104 Boston-area college students to participate in a computer-based Prisoner's Dilemma game that was extended to include costly punishment alongside the usual options of cooperation and defection. Pairs of students played the game repeatedly so the interaction between costly punishment and reciprocity could be assessed.

The result: There is a strong negative correlation between individual payoff and the use of costly punishment. The five top-ranked players never used costly punishment, while players who earned the lowest payoffs tended to punish most often. Winners used a tit-for-tat like strategy while losers used costly punishment. Furthermore, costly punishment did not increase the average payoff of the group.

The study shows that punishment is not an effective force for promoting cooperation. The unfortunate tendency of humans to engage in acts of costly punishment must have evolved for other reasons such as establishing dominance hierarchy and defending ownership, but not to promote cooperation. In cooperation games, costly punishment is a detrimental and self-destructive behavior.

"Punishment may be a tool for forcing another person to do what you want," Dreber says. "It might have been for those kinds of dominance situations that the use of punishment has evolved."

"Our finding has a very positive message: In an extremely competitive setting, the winners are those who resist the temptation to escalate conflicts, while the losers punish and perish," concludes Nowak.

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no_hypocrisy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-19-08 04:49 PM
Response to Original message
1. I'm proof of that proposition.
The more I was punished by my parents, the less cooperative I became. My father was especially frustrated as I seemed to have "gone off script" with my insolent response.
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EstimatedProphet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-19-08 04:56 PM
Response to Original message
2. Positive vs. negative reinforcement
It's been shown many times that psoitive reinforcement (rewarding desired behavior) is far more effective than negative reinforcement (punishing undesired behavior).
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arendt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-19-08 05:01 PM
Response to Original message
3. When they follow that idea for the 1% of our country they've incarcerated, then I'll think about...
letting these sociopathic thieves go unpunished.

arendt
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Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-19-08 09:01 PM
Response to Original message
4. The punishist/prude brigade in DU should read that.
They're losers. Of course.
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Trillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-19-08 09:49 PM
Response to Original message
5. Isn't this a strawman?
The study was about humans. The mortgage mess was about corporations, not humans acting as individuals.

So I guess I'm questioning as well the OP's usage of "the people responsible for the mortgage mess". I checked the link and it wasn't clear in the article either. Who are "the people" referenced in that phrase? Humans? Or corporations legally acting as "persons"?
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swag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-19-08 11:43 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. I know several humans who actively participated in the mortgage mess.
Your assertion is unsubstantiated and probably unsupportable.
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Trillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 12:46 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. What assertion?
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swag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 07:54 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. This one:
"The mortgage mess was about corporations, not humans acting as individuals."

Best to you.
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Trillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 08:33 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. I didn't intend that as an assertion, but thanks for answering !
It was intended to be connected to the Subject textarea or title of my post. Without explaining what the fallacy might be, it would have been a cryptic comment, and therefore possibly/probably would have represented a failure to communicate.

Best back to you!
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raccoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 09:38 AM
Response to Original message
9. Would he say that about the ordinary guys in jail? The ones of a low socioeconomic status?

That'd be the day. :sarcasm:
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swag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 09:40 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. Well, I think Mark Thoma probably would.
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Lance_Boyle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 09:49 AM
Response to Original message
11. allowing a lender to foreclose on a property is punishment?
I don't think I agree with their definition of "punishment." Foreclosure is a consequence - the lender is not "punishing" the defaulting borrower, the lender is seeking to recover the loss it has suffered through the borrower's default. If you are defaulting on your mortgage and the lender is foreclosing, you are not being "punished." Rather, you are paying the piper, or returning ill-gotten booty. Any other view of this seems ridiculous. Are you being "punished" at the checkout line when asked to pay for the groceries you put in your cart? Rising prices and hyperbole aside, no you are not. The same is true with the mortgage mess - people are getting to the checkout line and finding out they don't have enough money, so they're having to remove an item from their cart to proceed. Not a punishment. Which makes the "study" more or less a giant steaming crock of doodoo.

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Trillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 09:37 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. "Are you being "punished" at the checkout line
Edited on Thu Mar-20-08 09:41 PM by SimpleTrend
"when asked to pay for the groceries you put in your cart?

Why, yes, you are. Have you ever noted those signs that threaten you if you write a bad check? Maybe they don't have them where you shop, but they have them in many retail places in Southern California. I find them insulting, at odds with the claimed intent of "smiling" customer service, and a punishment of all for the sins of a VERY FEW.

Have you noted any security in the grocery stores you shop at? I find their presence a reminder that the merchant is ready to metaphorically 'beat the crap out of you' if you do anything wrong. It's a type of mental punishment, and sets me truly mad as hell at times (which I don't act out on, but inwardly I'm friggin' seething at the merchants who choose this 'in your face' type of security).

So, this is my perception, I find these and perhaps some other things rude at best. I find "smiling" service in their presence a brazenly hypocritical message created by a basic existence of merchant deception.
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