Verdict Is In: Two Ohio Workers Found Guilty Of Rigging Vote Recount In 2004

[orleans]

well well well....

FINALLY! GUILTY! (but we already knew that)

yesterday: "CLEVELAND (AP) -- A jury on Tuesday started to decide whether three election workers in the state's most populous county illegally rigged what was supposed to be a random sample recount in the 2004 presidential election to avoid a time-consuming hand count of all votes.

http://wcpo.com/news/2007/local/01/23/oh_elections.html

today:
"CLEVELAND - Two election workers in the state's most populous county were convicted Wednesday of illegally rigging the 2004 presidential election recount so they could avoid a more thorough review of the votes."

http://www.ohio.com/mld/beaconjournal/news/state/16536269.htm

i can't help it--i'm on the verge of tears

[rpgamerd00d]

1. k&r

[MethuenProgressive]

2. K'd&R'd

[Botany]

3. When do you think the media is going to cover this?

[TechBear_Seattle]

6. When God kisses Satan's tail

Sorry for the graphic image but "When Hell freezes over" would be far sooner than I expect.

The media and every single politician has a vested interest in covering this up very fast and very deep. It will never see the light of day in any mainstream media outlet.

[mzmolly]

34. Olbermann will cover it

that's about it.

[Botany]

36. Send it to him

[e-mail]


Trust me I live in OH and this is the tip of the iceberg ....
The Washington Post, NY Times, CNN, and all those gutless
big time "journalists" will work 24/7 to kill the story .....
because if they had not gone along in 2000, 2002, & 2004
these election thefts would never have happened.

[mzmolly]

38. Done

Thanks for making it so easy. :hi:

[Pawel K]

96. Sent one too

thanks.

[orleans]

90. well, he didn't cover it on wednesday--hopefully he'll pick it up

for thursday.

i heard about it on the cnn radio breaks during randi's show on wednesday. but i never saw cnn tv run anything about it.

[Synnical]

144. The media? The five companies?

CNN ("the most news in the morning") covered this AM one man's diet of hot sauce to lose weight. I'm not holding my breath. The "media" is worried about the demise of paper news and Paris Hilton. I do subscribe to the local paper, but only for the coupons.

I get my news from the internet.

[flying_wahini]

4. it makes me want to vomit, how these people have ruined us all

n/t

[bonito]

5. K&R

[90-percent]

8. We have Keith Olbermann

Of anybody in MSM, Keith has the highest probability of mentioning this ACT OF TREASON AGAINST THE AMERICAN PEOPLE on his show.

In the name of our Founding Fathers, I hope Keith features it tonight!

-85% jimmy

[BurtWorm]

9. See post #7.

Their count favored Kerry. I'm not sure this is the news we've been waiting for.

[BurtWorm]

7. Their count favored Kerry by 17 votes.

From the article:

<<Special prosecutor Kevin Baxter, who was brought in from Erie County to handle the case, did not claim the workers' actions affected the outcome of the election - Kerry gained 17 votes and Bush lost six in the county's recount.

<<But Baxter insisted the employees broke the law when they worked behind closed doors three days before the public Dec. 16, 2004, recount to pick ballots they knew would not cause discrepancies when checked by hand so they could avoid a lengthier, more expensive hand recount of all votes.

<<Ohio law states that during a recount each county is supposed to randomly count at least 3 percent of its ballots by hand and by machine. If there are not discrepancies in those counts, the rest of the votes can be recounted by machine. A full hand-count is ordered if two random samples result in differences.>>

This case doesn't support the larger one that Ohio was rigged for Bush. It only supports the case that Ohio, at least in Cayahuga County, was fishy.

[Hav]

11. .

I didn't know how to read it.
It could have been that the result with a real recount could have been totally different, maybe way better for Kerry. As I see it, they wanted it to be as close to the first result as possible to avoid another recount.

[BurtWorm]

12. It sounds as though they were trying to save themselves time

not win or lose an election for anyone. It sounds like they pre-selected the 3% to recount by getting rid of the unreadable ones and using only legible ones.

I'll bet there was much worse shit going on in other counties.

[JacksonWest]

114. Some facts about the county:

There are only eighty thousand residents, It was certified for Kerry on election night, and even if everyone who voted for Bush had voted for kerry in that counry, Bush still would have won.

http://www.city-data.com/county/Erie_County-OH.html

[HCE SuiGeneris]

10. K & R -- but damnit I want more accountability and responsibility

for the persons who ordered them to do this and why they were able to access and sort the ballots.

[judaspriestess]

13. I wonder who's orders they were following

This is great news!! They got what they deserved!

[Cobalt Violet]

14. K & R

But we still have a pretzeldent instead of a President right?

[stubtoe]

41. If only we could hit the cosmic "rewind" button...

*sigh*

[sakabatou]

15. K+R

But it's kinda late, isn't it?

[brettdale]

16. THIS SHOULD BE BREAKING NEWS EVERYWHERE

BUT NOT EVEN ONE LINE APART FROM THE LOCAL MEDIA IN OHIO.

IM BETTING CNN,FAUX, MSNBC, USATODAY,NBC,ABC,CBS AND ALL MAJOR PAPERS WONT EVEN MENTION IT.

[helderheid]

17. OH MY GOD!! PLEASE SEND THIS TO KEITH OLBERMANN NOW!

[Duncan Grant]

18. K&R

:kick:

[StopVoteFraud]

19. I'd rec if I could, but not enough posts

So here's a kick. Everyone needs to see this and we need to stop this fraud.

[helderheid]

21. Welcome to DU!

[Lasher]

78. Here, I'll rec for you

Stick around, you'll be able to do it yourself soon.

Lasher

[marions ghost]

20. tip of the iceberg

but it's a start. Maybe one of these days election rigging will actually be treated as a crime.

[Sydnie]

22. kickety kick kick!

:woohoo: Now, let's look deeper, shall we?

[Botany]

37. It Bay Airs looking into

[BearSquirrel2]

130. The Colbert Nation ...

The Colbert Nation grimaces at your photo. No doubt they'll all be rooting for the Colts next Sunday. Though, they Colts do have blue as a color.

[Imagevision]

152. K&R!!!

[helderheid]

23. just sent this to Keith - please do the same:

[e-mail] and [e-mail]

[brettdale]

24. boy this story stayed big for about five seconds

Its not even getting traction on DU.

[helderheid]

25. I sent it to Keith Olbermann - probably should send it to Sen. Kerry

[theboss]

131. Why? So he knows people cheated to help him?

Again...has anyone actually read the story.

[helderheid]

26. I want 1000 recs!

[Junkdrawer]

27. So, of course, the little guys get slapped, the big fish walk, and...

a REAL recount is out of the question.

[helderheid]

28. kick

[theboss]

133. Who are the big fish here?

Their husbands who wanted them home?

[Junkdrawer]

136. Your response masks a serious question...

In the election fraud business, there are many "Democratic" enablers.

[maggiegault]

29. Send It To All Of The Foreign Papers

Including the ones in the Middle East.

The Age and the Morning Herald in Australia

All of the London papers

Toronto Star

The Venezuelan Papers

Germany/France/Italy

Those are just off the top of my head. This also needs to go to John Stewart/Stephen Colbert.

It won't get play in the corporate media.

[helderheid]

31. I sent it to deepjournal in the Netherlands

[Danascot]

86. Would Greg Palast be interested?

Anybody have his contact info?

[B Calm]

30. So are they getting the death penalty?

[orleans]

68. lol. (i needed that chuckle) n/t

[B Calm]

156. People have fought and died so others can have the right to vote.

[happydreams]

32. K&R! Now what does this do to the Chimp's presidency?

[helderheid]

35. Nothing officially but it would prove he was never elected, 2000 or 2004, and perhaps easier for the

public to accept impeachment!

[theboss]

134. Except, this proves nothing aside from laziness

Read the article.

[sonias]

33. I hope they get the full sentence - 18 months

That should send a notice to any and all election workers that there will be no more shenanigans or cutting corners when you do your job.

Also I want Ann Coulter to get her full sentence for voter fraud too. You have to prosecute both kinds.

Sonia

[leveymg]

39. So, what do we do now? Knock on the White House door,

"Mr. President - You're being evicted. You have 24 hours to vacate the premises."

[Radio_Lady]

44. Wouldn't that be wonderful? "Mr. President, you're being evicted. You have 24 hours to vacate..."

Wow! A dream come true.

[Fovea]

40. The charge should have been treason.

via depraved indifference.

[EFerrari]

42. How many lives lost because of these criminals?

:puke:

[mod mom]

61. I believe there are some Dems (thinking of the ODP) who owe a lot of us an

apology! To be called a conspiracy theorist by the repugs is one thing but to have your own state party same the same is shameful!

[EFerrari]

67. I'm sure you are owed more than one, mod mom.

On top of everything else to be invalidated or gaslighted that way. :nuke:

[chill_wind]

85. Amen to that!

[TheWatcher]

154. Yes they do.

And I notice a VERY conspicuous absence from this thread by some of the LOUDEST screamers of "tinfoil!" "conspiracy nonsense!" "No evidence!" "We're making ourselves look bad to the other side!" we have on DU.

Interesting.

Truth Hurt Much?


THE. ELECTION. WAS. STOLEN.

Period.

[Divernan]

84. Several hundred thousand lives lost, & as many maimed, wounded,

financially destroyed. And likely a couple of hundred thousand more in the next two years. And for this these public officials get 18 months max. Makes you wish that our society practised shunning, because these two more than deserve it. Instead, they'll probably be named to the board of Haliburton.

[derby378]

43. GIVE JOHN KERRY THE WHITE HOUSE. NOW.

DO IT NOW.

[_dynamicdems]

47. Now that would be effing great!

Throw the pretender out.

Sigh. Too bad there isn't a chance it will happen. But maybe there is a jail sentence for the pretender at some point in the future.

[DRoseDARs]

70. See post #7 n/t

[Febble]

45. Rigging the recount

to avoid a hand-count is NOT the same as rigging the election to avoid a Kerry win.

The re-count was certainly a sham, and I am extremely glad to see these prosecutions. It is the beginning of a little accountability.

But it says nothing about whether Kerry won or not.

[Bjorn Against]

50. It does give us one more piece of evidence though

This may not be proof of a Kerry win in and of itself but when you pile it on with the other evidence there is a good deal of evidence to support that theory.

[BeFree]

54. Yeah

The scales of justice are tipping mightily that way.

From what I hear there will be more of this type of news coming from Ohio. I figure this was just the easiest target and may make some of the little guys in the rest of the field roll over on the high perps.

Stay tuned.

[theboss]

121. Kerry's maring increased by 23 in the count

Read the article.

[Febble]

153. That doesn't surprise me.

I would have expect Kerry to pick up votes in the recount, just as Gore did in Florida, and would have picked up enough votes to win.

Ohio is a big hill to climb, though. So far, I haven't seen evidence that has convinced me that Kerry would have won Ohio on a level playing field, although I've seen plenty of evidence that he would have done a heck of a lot better.

But I am very glad to see heads roll for the sham recount. Ohio needed a proper recount and it didn't get one. I'd like to have seen bigger heads roll, though. This smells of scapegoating to me.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

46. Now if only we can get them to roll over on their higher ups.

[Junkdrawer]

49. Unfortunately, the prosecutor is saying "they did it to avoid work"...

so the prosecutor is NOT going after the higher ups.

Let's see what penalties, if any, they're given.

I think this was all about restoring some confidence in an obviously rigged system.

[MagickMuffin]

48. The Time Doesn't Fit the Crime

The felony conviction carries a possible sentence of six to 18 months.

It would seem to me that the sentencing should be a required mandatory minimum of 5 years in jail for tampering with our election systems. We have people serving longer sentences for smoking pot. Why shouldn't these people be considered more harmful to society?

This also didn't make any sense to me:
Special prosecutor Kevin Baxter, who was brought in from Erie County to handle the case, did not claim the workers' actions affected the outcome of the election - Kerry gained 17 votes and Bush lost six in the county's recount.

But Baxter insisted the employees broke the law when they worked behind closed doors three days before the public Dec. 16, 2004, recount to pick ballots they knew would not cause discrepancies when checked by hand so they could avoid a lengthier, more expensive hand recount of all votes.

Ohio law states that during a recount each county is supposed to randomly count at least 3 percent of its ballots by hand and by machine. If there are not discrepancies in those counts, the rest of the votes can be recounted by machine. A full hand-count is ordered if two random samples result in differences.

So, Baxter didn't claim the workers actions affected the outcome, yet it appears the workers broke the law by working behind closed doors to cherry pick the ballots, therefore they never had a FULL RECOUNT:shrug:

Makes no sense. How can you determine whether or not the outcome would have been different if the ballots hadn't been cherry picked to avoid a lengthier hand recount?

[Scout1071]

51. K&R

[bleever]

52. Keep chipping away.

This is another great development.

[Canuckistanian]

53. Screw the workers - charge the ones who hired them

They're the ones who should be charged. Now, THAT would be news.

Other than that, good news! At least SOMEBODY has been charged.

[theboss]

120. Unfortunately, they were probably Democrats....

So...go, us!

[mykpart]

55. Imagine if you were the widow or the mother

of one of the troops who have died in Iraq in the last two years!

[HappyWeasel]

56. Geee....

It looks like things can't get worst for the right...

[HappyWeasel]

57. Geee....

It looks like things can't get worst for the right...

[joeunderdog]

58. Kick for clean elections, Fucken treasonous theives.

[fafafafa12]

59. Get over it and call it what it is

lazy counters and not a stolen election. Pisses me off. Stand up and call it what it is, not what you want it to be.

[Tess49]

62. I'm wondering if it's too late for popcorn. Anyone?

[orleans]

69. get over yourself. how do you know it wasn't a stolen election?

[NoSheep]

83. YOU'RE pissed off? You have no idea!

:grr:

[Pacifist Patriot]

94. Okay.

Criminal activity.

Motivation is irrelevant as far as I'm concerned. They broke the law.

[Isthathwryrgnabe]

147. What is the avatar image?

[Pacifist Patriot]

159. Unitarian Universalist flaming chalice

[EvolveOrConvolve]

99. Get over it? GET OVER IT?

Fairly heavy statistical analysis has shown that something very fishy was going on, and that we have very little recourse.

Go back to Freak Republic so you can brag about your DU adventure.

[New Earth]

101. wow hi, bye!

you didn't seem to last too long :(

[New Earth]

102. oops

[Isthathwryrgnabe]

140. I decide when it is time to say goodbye, pagan princess!

Yea, I know!

[New Earth]

148. huh

:wtf:

[texpatriot2004]

60. Vindicated...after 2 years and counting nm

[el_duderino]

63. Kick

[calimary]

64. YES, I'm SURE I want to recommend this thread!

I'd do it 103 times if I could.

Gore won. SO DID KERRY.

The ONLY way these republi-CON shitheads could win was to cheat.

[theboss]

110. Read the story

Fraud in a Democratic stronghold that favored the Democrat.

Honest to Pete.

[Contrite]

149. You know it, Calimary

And we won SO much bigger this time too, it was rigged again--but they just couldn't rig it enough to overcome the backlash against ChimpCo

[autorank]

65. Sweet! Justice and the Truth...it's all we've got but it's more than enough!!! KR

[Land Shark]

66. Attorney Political Analysis of Election Officials' Convictions in Ohio 2004 Pres recount rigging

is located here:
(brand new late wed night, please K&R)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x33328

[Swamp Rat]

71. President John Kerry

:)

[Cleita]

72. Looks like the proof is in.

Rigged election in Florida in 2000 with Supreme Court interference and a Chief Justice who was senile and rigged election in Ohio in 2004. I think it's time to give *W his walking papers. How do we do it?

[Ms. Toad]

141. Rigged recount

(and not just Cuyahoga County). Had the recount not been rigged, it might have documented more serious problems (including vote totals that didn't match the official vote totals) - but its still a ways to go to get from rigged recounts to either documented vote discrepancies or revealing the underlying reasons for the discrepancies.)

[Cleita]

143. The fact is that the election was not counted correctly and

therefore is invalid. Yet there was no call for another election. So where do you go from there? There is evidence otherwise in Ohio that Kerry won.

[Ms. Toad]

145. There is a difference

between counting and recounting. Because the "random" sample that was recounted was not chosen randomly, the recount provides no evidence one way or the other about whether the counting itself was correct. In other words these convictions provide no evidence as to whether the election was counted correctly - only that the recount was not done in accordance with the rule.

Where I think we go is to check every county and determine how the 3% of the precincts were selected and at least establish that the recounts were improper across the board (or at least very nearly across the board).

Because the machines are almost completely different now than in 2004, I don't know whether it is worth it to go the next step to reselect a random sample for every county, do the hand recount and check to see if it matches the machine count, and hand recount the county if necessary. It is a large expense (which will be paid for by us), the machines (for the most part) have already been replaced so it will not provide any evidence about the machines that are being used going forward, and it won't change the results of the election (i.e. it won't put Kerry in office). On the other hand, imposing consequences for ignoring the rules does have some value.

[Cleita]

146. It's complicating a simple procedure.

Simple way is to count every ballot by hand twice. First by one party and then again by the other party. The machines should only be for reference to have figures to balance against. This is what every company and every bank does every day. They hand count everything and match it against the tapes from registers, ATMS and other counting machines. The electronic figure is not the final figure.

You'd think we should do this with our elections. Canada does and they have results in hours. It's really not rocket science and Americans deserve to know if the persons put in power to muck with their lives were the ones that they in fact voted for.

[Ms. Toad]

155. If you look at the Canadian system it is not at all similar.

Among other things, in the national election voters only vote for a local party Representative (they do not vote directly for the prime minster, federal representatives, etc.), and local elections are not held simultaneously with the federal election. I had at least 25 races in my last federal election - that makes for a much different counting scenario than voting in one races. In the last federal election, for example, per your suggestion it would mean counting each ballot at least 50 times - twice for each race - as opposed to two for a similar election in Canada (once for each local party representative vote). (And, for what its worth, in Canada many local elections ballots are counted electronically.)

I'm not saying it can't be done here - but it would require a massive adjustment in terms of both costs (financial and people) and societal attitudes: Financial: Cuyahoga County, Ohio hand counted a portion of its ballots last spring because it was forced to and it took a week or so of at least two shifts a day - I don't know if they counted a second time after the initial count or if that would have taken a second week) - that's a massive expense that doesn't exist now; People power: Election employees are stretched pretty thin covering election day and the run up to it - this would require full staffing for at least a week, probably longer, beyond election day; Attitude: We currently expect to know most of the results by bedtime on election day and all but a very small handful by the time the morning paper arrives the next day. Election results wouldn't be known for at least a week in a hand counting scenario.

All that aside, my only point in responding in this thread was that the convictions were related to recounts, not directly to the accuracy of the original count. Because of that, all we can tell is that the recount was messed up. Even if they had done the recount in accordance with the law (which might have required a full hand count) it is possible that the full hand recount would match the certified vote. Because they pre-selected the "random" precincts so they matched they didn't have to do the full hand recount, which means we do not even know whether the full recount would have matched or not.

[Cleita]

158. I see your point. Thanks.n/t

[lies and propaganda]

73. wow...

now we just need to convince people that it was Ohio taht pushed everything over the edge.

[Liberal In Texas]

74. Proud to be the 120th recommend guy.

Andy is vindicated.

[jamesinca]

75. this is an excellent start

a reasonable doubt, something that can be proved, one more thing that will cast doubt on any legitimacy of this administration.

If he was not actually elected, do we as a country still have to be subject to the laws that he signed? Do we have to pay attention to the Patriot act, clear skies, healthy forrest, no rich white child left behind etc....

[StrictlyRockers]

76. Evil bastages!

Hope they enjoy their new cellmate, Bubba. He loves girly repuke election stealers.

[tritsofme]

77. These are the evil people that stole the election for Bush?

Jacqueline Maiden, center, stands with Rosie Grier, left, and Kathleen Dreamer, during court proceedings, Thursday, Jan. 18, 2007, in Cleveland. Maiden, who was the elections board's third-highest ranking employee, faces six counts of misconduct over how ballots were reviewed in Cuyahoga County in the 2004 presidential election. Grier, manager of the board's ballot department, and Kathleen Dreamer, an assistant manager, face the same charges. (AP Photo/Tony Dejak)

http://news.yahoo.com/photo/070118/480/cd10101182025


Doesn't seem that likely to me. Incompetence, disregard for the law, perhaps. Were these folks part of some conspiracy to steal Ohio for Bush, I highly doubt it.

[nomatrix]

92. Gee whiz, gosh golly-holy smokes

You think??????

Lynndie England
Abu Gahraib
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynndie_England

Doesn't seem that likely to me. Incompetence, disregard for the law, perhaps. Were these folks part of some conspiracy to torture prisoners for Bush, I highly doubt it.

Scooter Libby
Outing Valerie Plame
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewis_Libby

Doesn't seem that likely to me. Incompetence, disregard for the law, perhaps. Were these folks part of some conspiracy to fabricate evidence to go to war for Bush, I highly doubt it.

Straw Man
http://www.answers.com/topic/straw-man
A person who is set up as a cover or front for a questionable enterprise.

Doesn't seem that likely to me. Incompetence, disregard for the law, perhaps. Were these folks part of some conspiracy to take the fall for Bush, I highly doubt it.

[tritsofme]

98. What possible reason could two black women have

for assisting in any way to rig the election for Bush?

[nomatrix]

107. You'll have to ask Condi Rice

about that....actually why any woman would be supported them? Christy Todd Whitman who is going to take the fall for the bogus EPA
statement that the "Air is safe around the WTC."

Back to the topic...

3 days to pick through ballots gave lots of time to do more than 17 extra votes for Kerry.


"But Baxter insisted the employees broke the law when they worked behind closed doors three days before the public Dec. 16, 2004, recount to pick ballots they knew would not cause discrepancies when checked by hand so they could avoid a lengthier, more expensive hand recount of all votes."

[tritsofme]

139. Those women are the elite

I doubt any of the people convicted for this crime have oil tankers named after them, let alone salaries that reach into six digits.

I just don't think these women fit into the Bush rigging Ohio conspiracy.

[Vektor]

79. Tip of the iceberg.

There was rampant rigging of that entire effing election.

We at DU all knew it all along, didn't we?

"Moonbats", my ass, Freepers.

Did ya hear that?

GUILTY.

Just like we said.

[colorado_ufo]

80. On to Olberman!

[Liberal In Texas]

81. We're going to take our country back.

The more that truth to power is exposed, the better we we're going to be.

My old friend Andy would be heartened. This is his legacy. It's also a a kind of '60s legacy. We're taking our country back one small step at a time.


But, boy, it's hard work.

[stubtoe]

89. Yep, doesn't it seem like we've been working at it all our LIVES?

Gettin' old and still have to keep the armor on...

[many a good man]

82. Laziness of re-counters pre-requisite for tabulator fraud

From way back:

...
4) you could use your knowledge of human nature and the personalities of the BOE workers to predict which precinct(s) are likely to be chosen

From this you could develop a list of "safe" and "unsafe" precincts to hack. Then you could spread evenly the number of hacked votes you need among all the safe precincts. That way if a hacked precinct is chosen, the small difference between the hand count and machine count could be attributed to things like chads falling out and undervotes. Since you knew how many votes you hacked, you could even have a set of punch cards on hand with the correct votes if you were really really devious.

To gain an illegitimate advantage of 2%, you'll only need to hack 1% of the vote. Eliminate the "unsafe" precincts and you'll have to hack about 1.5% of the safe ones.

The smallest number of average voters per precinct in Ohio is 242; the largest is 688. Flipping 1.5% of the votes in these precincts would only require changing 4 votes in the smallest ones and 11 votes in the largest.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=203&topic_id=211906

[maveric]

87. Does ths mean that John Kerry is prez?

I know it doesnt, but wouldnt it be cool?

[IWantAChange]

88. The Terror Alert alarm went off in 2000 when Cheney & Rumsfeld assumed power

with Chimpy in charge - they were finally able to exact their revenge on America for being humiliated during the Nixon debacle.

[mnhtnbb]

91. All you Edwards bashers--do you remember that Edwards wanted to count the votes? Kerry shut it down

[kittenwithmittens]

93. Why are we cheering for this story?

Doesn't anyone actually read these articles? Cuyohoga County is a Democratic stronghold, according to both articles, and though neither article mentions their party affiliation, it would be safe to assume that elections officers in a "Democratic stronghold" would be Dems. My winger brother called me last night to rub these convictions in my face.

[Pacifist Patriot]

95. I can tell you why I'm cheering.

Party affiliation is irrelevant to me. ANYTHING that brings us closer to fairer and more transparent elections is cause for celebration.

I wouldn't necessarily jump to your winger brother's conclusion by the way. I'm in a Republican stronghold, but election workers are fairly evenly split between the parties. Often in a controlled area the minority party will inspire more election workers because of the perceived need for additional oversight. Could just as easily have been Republicans hoping to turn that Democratic stronghold. I am in no way suggesting this must be the case. Just pointing out that your brother's assumption isn't a foregone conclusion and why.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

104. Cuyohoga is where votes were dumped

and a recount would have shown it- that's why.
What better way to influence the election in favor of Bush than to weaken the returns in the biggest Democratic precincts?

[Clinton_Co_Regulator]

97. I would like to REPEAT this; Gather around everyone...

All of you who poo poo-ed election fraud need to choke on this.


K + R


That is all.

[robertpaulsen]

100. K & R! Great confirmation of what we all knew.

:kick:

[Downtown Hound]

103. So to all the DU nay-sayers who ridiculed any suggestions

of election fraud in 2004, what say you now? I realize this doesn't include the entire state, but it does prove that the voting process is extremely flawed.

[theboss]

109. Of course, the process is flawed

Our system is based on going to a gym or court basement, using antiquated machinery that is run by 75-year-old widows.

This does not point to a systematic state-wide fraud. It's sloppiness by two poll workers.

[elias7]

105. didn't even rate in Cleveland

Was not even on the front page of the Plain Dealer, unless you consider the Metro section to be front page news. Very disappointing. Seems they missed the point.

http://www.newseum.org/todaysfrontpages/default.asp?page=5

[HughBeaumont]

127. Connie Schulz aside, the Blame Dealer is a right wing rag.

Formerly published by right-wing zealot Alex Machaskee (Mr. "You endorse Bewsh or the paper endorses NO one". So they endorsed no one. Classic), right wing pro-war, pro-Bewsh letters occupy the LTTEs frequently. George Will, Thom Friedman and David Brooks columns are regularities. Their toothy propagandist Kevin O'Brien is stomach churning to read; his pro-Bewsh, pro-war columns defy description in their insufferability. I've not even gotten to pro-offshorer puke Stephen Koff.

So needless to say, something Lil' Alex would deem as "conspiracy nutjobbery" even though it's been apparent for six years probably wouldn't register on the blurb scale at the Blame Dealer.

[lonestarnot]

106. Sentencing is?

when?

[theboss]

108. Um...kids...doesn't this point to fraud by our side?

An intentional miscount in a Democratic stronghold that ended up favoring the Democrat?

Why is this a good thing?

[enki23]

113. how much did it favor the democrat BY is the question, don't you think?

.

[theboss]

116. No...not really

What's your argument to the contrary?

[enki23]

117. how does ohio apportion its electors?

somehow, i doubt it's on a county-by-county basis. most states, including ohio, send all their electors to the one who won the popular vote *in that state* so, on a state by state basis, *every vote counts equally*. (if only within that state.) therefore, lost kerry votes are lost kerry votes, no matter which county they were lost from. that still doesn't, by itself, answer the question about which side benefitted from the recount-rigging. one might imagine, however, that the only people with a candidate standing to gain by *avoiding* a manual recount, were those favoring bush.

in other, other words, the only way these poll workers were trying to help Kerry is:

a) they were covering up someone's (insufficient) pro-Kerry vote fraud (not impossible, but pretty damned unlikely, given the circumstances)
b) they were trying to benefit the one who was currently in the lead. bush. this, i'm afraid, is a hell of a lot more likely than possibility a.

[theboss]

119. Except Kerry gained votes and Bush lost them

Their count gave Kerry a +23 advantage unless I am reading this horribly wrong.

That's +23 overall in the state....which is good for Kerry.

[enki23]

122. but not enough of a benefit to call for a manual recount

which could not possibly have helped bush, who was already in the lead, and for whom "more in the lead" would not have mattered one whit.


once again: kerry, and his supporters had NOTHING TO GAIN by avoiding a manual recount, with the possible (unlikely) exception of a coverup for an inept previous vote-rigging attempt, for which there doesn't seem to be a shred of evidence. kerry was already in the *loss* column. it's winner take all, in ohio. you can't go any lower.

tell me you aren't doing this deliberately.

[theboss]

125. No...I just think the women involved were simply lazy

They wanted to avoid the work behind the recount. I don't get the impression that either were bright enough to hatch a plot that both voided the recount and made Kerry look good.

I think they just made some numbers up so they could go home.

[JacksonWest]

128. What?

they deliberately used the wrong process to add seventeen votes in Kerry's favor to avoid a manual recount...

What?

Why would a * supporter rig an election to create a small enought disparity-in Kerry's favor-as to not trigger a recount? Wouldn't it be easier to do nothing-since that would result in more votes for their candidate and less time in prison?

[joe_sixpack]

138. Come on now,

we're having fun with this, why do ya gotta ruin it?

[JacksonWest]

111. A question from a newcomer:

I read the article, and the prosecutor didn't say or argue that they had any effect on the election. What's the significance of this conviction? Is it purely symbolic, or is it proof that Kerry won? the article makes it sound like they violated a procedure out of laziness, and the election results were not effected.

[JacksonWest]

112. Another question: Didn't Kerry win that county-that day?

I just looked it up, Kerry and Edwards won that county in 2004, and that was reflected in the counting. What's the significance of this procedural error? It wouldn't be possible to change the results of the election.

http://www.city-data.com/county/Erie_County-OH.html

[enki23]

115. does ohio have a county-by-county electoral college system?

an electoral college within THE electoral college, if you will?

somehow, i don't think it does.

[JacksonWest]

123. What does that have to do with my question?

Most responses here seem to indicate that this conviction means Kerry should have won the election. I don't understand why. My point, that you seemed to have missed, is that Kerry received more votes then Bush that day. Given that there are eighty thousands residents in that county-in total-how could this decision indicate that Kerry should have won? There's no way that this county could have fixed the election one way or the other. Assuming every person voted-let's say all eighty thousand were eligible and voted. 44,800(56 percent) voted for Kerry. Let's say the other 36,000 votes were all meant for Kerry. That creates a 72,000 swing in his favor, which still doesn't give him Ohio.


Anyway, just a math thing. I don't understand why people are acting like this proves Kerry won.

[enki23]

124. i'm not trying to say it would have.

i'm responding to those who seem to think it points to evidence of pro-kerry fraud. if you aren't one of those, then it's simply a case of miscommunication.

however, and this shouldn't be overlooked, it very well might provide reason to look for more potential pro-bush fraud in other counties. where there's smoke, etc.

[JacksonWest]

129. Ok. But this seems to be incompetence/laziness

not fraud. Regardless-I'm just curious why people here-in this thread- are acting as if this changes somethign from 2004. It would be great if it did-but it doens't add up. I feel like I'm missing something. Your last line indicates what people see. Hope. Hope that this conviction will allow them to beleive that there is fraud, pro-bush fraud, in other counties.

[Ms. Toad]

142. You're not missing anything.

The conviction was about whether or not a full hand recount was required to be done. Because it wasn't done, we have no way of knowing what a full hand recount would have showed had one been done. The incompetence/laziness permitted them to avoid doing the full recount.

(FWIW, many counties rigged the recount - not just Cuyahoga)

[JacksonWest]

157. Ok. But if the recount was rigged, it seemed to have been rigged in Kerry's favor-right?

IN that county. ANd since they prosecuted the workers there-what sort of evidence and prosecutions are there elsewhere, in Ohio, that make you say other counties were rigged?

[Ms. Toad]

160. The random recount

was rigged so that the hand count of the 3% of the ballots ("randomly" selected) would match the machine count of those same ballots. That's neither for or against Kerry - its only for maintaining the status quo by avoiding a full hand recount. In a Kerry county the outcome would be that Kerry still wins. In a Bush county, the outcome would be that Bush still wins.

Unfortunately, I can't point to articles since I didn't keep links (and they are probably broken by now anyway), but there was a lot of discussion all across Ohio at the time about whether the requirement to randomly select the precincts for recount really required a random selection and a lot of folks indicated they would be preselected. Many of the articles also noted that when the counters and observers arrived at the precincts for recounting, the "randomly selected" precincts had already been selected. In one county (other than Cuyahoga) where I have some access to people directly involved in the process I was told that the precincts selected were pre-counted to make sure they matched.

[theboss]

132. How does two lazy women in Cleveland point to state-wide fraud?

Unless you can somehow prove that Blackwell stacked the deck with lazy pollworkers, I don't see how you make a connection.

[enki23]

135. for christ's sake, i'm not saying any such thing.

though i'm also not presupposing "lazy pollworkers" to be the only possible explanation.

as i said, i was trying to respond to those who seemed to be trying to indicate this was more likely to be evidence of PRO KERRY fraud. that isn't impossible, but, as i've pointed out, it seems pretty damned unlikely. i don't, however, discount the fact that people are not completely rational actors, and that one never really knows what some schmuck pollworker might have been thinking. lazy or otherwise.

[Contrite]

150. It's not pro-Kerry fraud

Kerry would have picked up votes if the recount was done properly

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x465777

(snip)

First, the prosecutors in Ohio did not seek to prove that the criminal misconduct affected the election – but this does not mean the presidential election wasn’t affected by the recount shenanigans. As any lawyer knows it would be foolish to set out to prove more than one is required to prove by the elements of the offenses charged. Moreover, charges of partisan intent would likely fall flat with a jury in a Democratic county like Cuyahoga, so the prosecutors played it mostly by the book in alleging only a motive of avoiding work. That motive would apply statewide, but additional partisan motive would be present in other places.

Ohio attorney Bob Fitrakis, an attorney involved with 2004 election-related litigation in Ohio, commented:

"The rigging of the recount was the NORM in Ohio, and the Cleveland convictions are just the tip of the iceberg. The recount rigging came right from the top with Ken Blackwell saying that the definition of "random" recount was whatever the locals decided -- including nonrandom selection of ballots and allowing private vendors to pick the precincts to be recounted. I think Blackwell (who was co-chair of the Bush Cheney campaign) knew that a proper recount would have revealed that John Kerry was elected by Ohioans in 2004, and not the candidate Blackwell represented in Ohio. As attorneys in pending litigation in Ohio, in our case it is our goal is to continue to preserve the ballots in Ohio so that citizens and scholars can determine the true count someday soon. As a matter of fact, limited proper recounts have been performed and wherever we've counted we've found discrepancies in favor of Kerry."

[Kurovski]

118. Kick.(nt)

[Turn CO Blue]

126. Worst Persons in the World material on Olbermann...

[orleans]

137. oooh. yeah. hope he uses this one. be nice if he did a regular piece

on this too--after all, keith was the only tv guy who was with us during the dark recount/nonrecount days.

[Imagevision]

151. Where the hell is Lou Dobbs when he's really needed?!!

This story really makes one proud to be an american with this incredible news-worthy story getting buried on the net and NO TV coverage!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!