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Antioxidants Don't Extend Life-found a higher risk of death for people taking vitamins

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The Straight Story Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-28-07 08:13 PM
Original message
Antioxidants Don't Extend Life-found a higher risk of death for people taking vitamins
Antioxidants Don't Extend Life, Review Says
Tens Of Millions Take Vitamins A, E, C, Others

CHICAGO -- Antioxidant vitamins taken by tens of millions of people around the world won't lead to a longer life, according to an analysis of dozens of studies that adds to evidence questioning the value of the popular supplements.

The large review of separate studies on thousands of people found no long-life benefit from vitamins A, E and C and beta carotene and selenium.

...

An estimated 80 million to 160 million people take antioxidants in North America and Europe, about 10 to 20 percent of adults, the study's authors said. And last year, Americans spent $2.3 billion on nutritional supplements and vitamins at grocery stores, drug stores and retail outlets, excluding Wal-Mart, according to Information Resources Inc., which tracks sales.
...

When they eliminated the lower-quality studies and looked only at the most trustworthy ones, they actually found a higher risk of death for people taking vitamins: 4 percent for those taking vitamin E, 7 percent for beta carotene and 16 percent for vitamin A. The actual cause of death in most studies was unknown, however.

Those findings are based on an analysis of 47 studies involving 180,938 people who were randomly assigned to get real vitamins or dummy pills. Some involved superdoses far exceeding the recommended daily amount of the compounds; others involved normal doses.

http://www.local6.com/health/11136141/detail.html
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tridim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-28-07 08:16 PM
Response to Original message
1. I don't care what they say, I'm still going to take lots of C and B..
Because they improve the quality of my current life.
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karlrschneider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-28-07 08:17 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. You probably have an actual need for them. Many people don't, really,
they just think 'more is better.'

;-)
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tridim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-28-07 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #3
11. Everyone needs Vitamin C at about 10 times the RDA..
I take at least 500mg a day, 7 oranges worth. I don't know anybody who eats that much citrus every day. Maybe it was a placebo effect, but my immune system was very weak until I started taking lots of Vitamin C.
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karlrschneider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-28-07 08:36 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. Everyone needs 10X the RDA? Something don't add up thar...
I'm not crazy about citrus but I have a glass of juice every morning, it seems to be adequate. For me anyhow.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-28-07 08:39 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. Some of those RDA's are rather off.
The one for Vitamin E, for example, was based on a study from the fifties where they fed rancid vegetable oil to male mental patients.

Vitmin C is probably a bit more reliable. The body only absorbs so much vitamin C into the bloodstream. So extra couldn't hurt.
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karlrschneider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-28-07 08:54 PM
Original message
In the 60s, Vit E was thought to be a ...uh, "male enhancement" substance.
I tried it for a while but didn't notice any difference. Oysters were way over-rated too, I'd eat a dozen and they would usually only work 7 or 8 times.
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tridim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-28-07 09:11 PM
Response to Original message
41. Oysters are good for the prostate, they're high in zinc.
Technically that should improve sexual performance if the rest of the plumbing is functioning well.
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karlrschneider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-28-07 09:20 PM
Original message
Plus they're a lot easier to chew than chain link fences!
:D
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tridim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-28-07 09:46 PM
Response to Original message
60. Speak for yourself, oysters make me gag
because they have the texture of snot and fish guts.

I can't eat them, wish I could though.
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RC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-28-07 09:35 PM
Response to Reply #17
52. Extra vitamin C does hurt.
Edited on Wed Feb-28-07 09:37 PM by RC
The body gets used to the higher dose and you can get scurvy if you stop taking extra vitamin C and just get it from a normal diet.
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tridim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-28-07 10:02 PM
Response to Reply #52
66. That's only an issue if you're taking huge doses
Like in the 10 gram/day range.
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karlrschneider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-28-07 10:49 PM
Response to Reply #66
69. What kind of moran would swallow 20 500 mg. doses a day?
Argh.
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Cetacea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-01-07 09:27 AM
Response to Reply #69
95. Me. But I would take 20 in 1gm doses. Try it next time a cold is coming on
Edited on Thu Mar-01-07 09:28 AM by Artiechoke
If you do it early on, you will either avert the full-blown cold/flu or at least cut it's duration by half to two-thirds time.
I take my advice from a two-time Nobel winner (one in chemistry) whose discoveries regarding C were recently vindicated by the National Health Institute after they had swift boated him for 35 years.

BTW, I have had one cold in 10 years.

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Chemical Bill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-01-07 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #69
103. A Nobel Prize winner.
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Cetacea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-01-07 10:22 AM
Response to Reply #103
104. Two-time Nobel laureate, actually. Thanks for link!
He was 92 at the time of that article.
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karlrschneider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-01-07 11:05 AM
Response to Reply #103
112. His claims were debunked years ago.
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Chemical Bill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-01-07 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #112
113. I hope you are as active and vital at 93. n/t
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karlrschneider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-01-07 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #113
118. When he was 93 he was dead.
:eyes:
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Cetacea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-01-07 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #112
116. quackwatch? They should be sued along with many others
Pauling was vindicated, even by the researchers from the NIH who originally ran flawed studies years ago. Quackwatch should be sued for contributing to enhanced pain and suffering and shortened life spans for their lazy research. Feel free to email my post to them.

..."Millions of people could have delayed or avoided health problems such as cataracts, cancer, blood vessel disease, aneurysms, gall stones and more had NIH researchers properly conducted tests to determine the human need for vitamin C....

....Despite recently published data that stands in stark contrast to the RDA and the claim that mega-dose vitamin C supplementation is of no benefit, public health authorities are not forthcoming about their past mistakes."...

Think time as come to take the medical authorities to task and charge them with negligence. Given that these facts have been known for years yet they continue to use mostly ineffective, harmfull/toxic and expensive drugs.

http://www.newmediaexplorer.org/chris/2004/07/09/the_vitamin_c_fanatics_were_right_all_along.htm

DO a google search for IV Vitamin C and Cancer for recent findings.
Do keep in mind the politics of Vitamin C.
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RC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-01-07 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #66
119. Actually it is 1000mg or 1 gram daily.
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Cetacea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-01-07 09:21 AM
Response to Reply #52
94. No it doesn't. It does kill cancer cells, though, Where did you read that?
This swift boating of vitamin supplements wisely avoided C, simply because there are thousands of studies done over the years from all over the world.
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HysteryDiagnosis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-28-07 08:40 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. Why would a rabbit at perhaps 10 pounds body weight produce
GRAMS of vit C per day? We lost the ability to produce ascorbic acid in our livers long ago... funny thing, even after the Brits saw the Indians heal their sailors of scurvy with pine bark and pine needle tea, it took them about 50 years to start carrying citrus on their ships.

Linus Pauling proposed that ldl cholesterol acts as a surrogate for vit c when it isn't at levels it could or should be.
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karlrschneider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-28-07 08:51 PM
Response to Reply #18
26. Gosh, I don't know...I'm a man not a rabbit.
Linus was a brilliant guy but he was more than a little bit nuts in some ways. And I don't think there's exactly a scurvy pandemic...
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-28-07 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. Scurvy is the disease of vitamin C depletion.
It says nothing about how much vitamin C is needed.
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karlrschneider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-28-07 08:56 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. If it's depleted, doesn't that say, -precisely- something about the need for it?
As in, "more than the scurvy guy actually GOT"?
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-28-07 08:56 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. No.
That's like saying your engine needs more oil when it seizes up.
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karlrschneider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-28-07 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #30
32. No, it's like saying your engine -should have had- more oil.
And scurvy is a lot easier to cure than a melted motor. :eyes:
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-28-07 08:59 PM
Original message
Yeah, but how much more.
Do you wait until the engine completely runs out of oil before topping it off? Course not.
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karlrschneider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-28-07 09:01 PM
Response to Original message
35. Well, how silly of me. Of course you are right. From now on, I will add oil
every day until it runs out the filler tube. Just in case.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-28-07 09:02 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. Oh, right.
Because of the epidemic of vitamin C overdoses going around.
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karlrschneider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-28-07 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #36
46. It's almost as bad as the scurvy epidemic, isn't it?
That does it, I'm switching to a diet of eggs and green ham.
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HysteryDiagnosis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-28-07 10:02 PM
Response to Reply #30
65. Oh yes..... excellent point!!! I like the one that says, "Performing
a bypass surgery is like removing a person's lungs because he has pneumonia."
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HysteryDiagnosis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-28-07 09:04 PM
Response to Reply #27
37. Dr. Sydney Bush (no relation) has a different view, literally.
Edited on Wed Feb-28-07 09:16 PM by 4MoronicYears
http://www.prweb.com/releases/2004/11/prweb183344.htm

(PRWEB) November 30, 2004 -- The pericorneal vasculature, studied frequently by contact lens practitioners, shows that Scurvy affects all humans some of the time and most of us most of the time. The largely unrecognised chronic subclinical form can best be diagnosed (and cured) by Optometrists using sequential electronic retinal artery images and highly variable amounts vitamin C, occasionally with other nutrients.

The second letter defines chronic subclinical scurvy from which all humans suffer in the long term and from which we probably all die earlier than we need, having suffered it in varying degrees throughout our lives. Our deaths are ascribed to any or multiples of ninety Free Radical diseases, which are actually rooted in acute ‘ephemeral’ type scurvy or ‘chronic subclinical’ scurvy. This renders most death certificates inaccurate as they ignore the initiating factor; lack of vitamin C and Linus Pauling was absolutely right.
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HysteryDiagnosis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-28-07 08:59 PM
Response to Reply #26
33. Many many conditions go on for years, subclinical but there
just the same.

http://www.prweb.com/releases/2004/11/prweb183344.htm
New Definitions of Scurvy Affect Everyone

The atheroma of the retinal arteries is a virtually perfect surrogate outcome predictor of coronary heart disease and will continue to be so as long as the eyes are connected to the rest of the system. The modern electronic eye camera/microscopes with high definiition magnification facility show the impacting of the cholesterol beautifully and also its redissolving into the bloodstream when the system is restored to balance. And this is seen in arterioles too small to be seen with the naked eye!

Many early cancers, arthritis and many of approximately ninety other free radical diseases will be slowed if not prevented. Glaucoma has become a rarity in my practice. This despite in 1979, publishing a paper on the high rates of glaucoma here in Hull! That report in March 1979 was news and having been picked up by literature searchers was broadcast on the BBC news in every news bulletin of the day.

Little can be said more truly than that Scurvy is 'in the nature of Man,' and now, it seems, to a far greater extent than I had ever guessed at,
anascorbaemia being Man's primary inherited metabolic disease.

Whilst day to day variations in the pericorneal vessels are a relatively readily readable ‘barometer’ of ‘ephemeral’ scurvy especially when viewed via the slit lamp biomicroscope of the contact lens practitioner, little attention has been paid to it except by a few dedicated medical practitioners.
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karlrschneider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-28-07 09:41 PM
Response to Reply #33
57. Well, that's a fascinating little vignette by Dr. Bush
He has managed to extrapolate a lot of prognoses from not much clinical data. :eyes:
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HysteryDiagnosis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-28-07 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #57
58. Point being that glaucoma, cataracts, retinal bleeding can all be
Edited on Wed Feb-28-07 09:47 PM by 4MoronicYears
prevented WO drugs. That's a fact like it or not. Please note that this was done "over there" where the pharmcos don't own the gubmint.


1: Invest Ophthalmol Vis Sci. 2006 Jun;47(6):2329-35.Click here to read Links
Plasma lutein and zeaxanthin and other carotenoids as modifiable risk factors for age-related maculopathy and cataract: the POLA Study.

* Delcourt C,
* Carriere I,
* Delage M,
* Barberger-Gateau P,
* Schalch W;
* POLA Study Group.

Institut National de la Sante et de la Recherche Medicale (INSERM), Research Unit U593 for Epidemiology, Public Health and Development, Universite Victor Segalen Bordeaux 2, Bordeaux, France. cecile.delcourt@isped.u-bordeaux2.fr

PURPOSE: To assess the associations of plasma lutein and zeaxanthin and other carotenoids with the risk of age-related maculopathy (ARM) and cataract in the population-based Pathologies Oculaires Liees a l'Age (POLA) Study.

METHODS: Retinal photographs were graded according to the international classification. ARM was defined by the presence of late ARM (neovascular ARM, geographic atrophy) and/or soft indistinct drusen (>125 microm) and/or soft distinct drusen (>125 microm) associated with pigmentary abnormalities. Cataract classification was based on a direct standardized lens examination at the slit lamp, according to Lens Opacities Classification System III. Plasma carotenoids were measured by high-performance liquid chromatography (HPLC), in 899 subjects of the cohort.

RESULTS: After multivariate adjustment, the highest quintile of plasma zeaxanthin was significantly associated with reduced risk of ARM (OR=0.07; 95% CI: 0.01-0.58; P for trend=0.005), nuclear cataract (OR=0.23; 95% CI: 0.08-0.68; P for trend=0.003) and any cataract (OR=0.53; 95% CI: 0.31-0.89; P for trend=0.01). ARM was significantly associated with combined plasma lutein and zeaxanthin (OR=0.21; 95% CI: 0.05-0.79; P for trend=0.01), and tended to be associated with plasma lutein (OR=0.31; 95% CI: 0.09-1.07; P for trend=0.04), whereas cataract showed no such associations. Among other carotenoids, only beta-carotene showed a significant negative association with nuclear cataract, but not ARM.

CONCLUSIONS: These results are strongly suggestive of a protective role of the xanthophylls, in particular zeaxanthin, for the protection against ARM and cataract.
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Cetacea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-01-07 09:46 AM
Response to Reply #26
99. Two-time Nobel winner Linus Pauling wasn't "nutty"
Can you qualify that statement?
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musette_sf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-28-07 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #11
44. i found that taking Ester-C
works even better. even though i can't get Larry King's braying tones out of my head when i think of it :-)
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HysteryDiagnosis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-28-07 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #1
10. If nature doesn't like to waste things... and I believe he
doesn't.... then it sure is curious that a rabbit makes over 10 grams of ascorbic acid/day. Then again, rabbits don't have to deal with too much cancer, heart disease and or diabetes. Doing the math, an average sized human could benefit from a much larger mg of vit c than the 77mg the gubmint professes to be the "correct amount".
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karlrschneider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-28-07 08:16 PM
Response to Original message
2. I quit taking vitamin pills 20 years ago and I'm healthier than I was then.
Anecdotal, sure but it is what it is...
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cgrindley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-28-07 08:20 PM
Response to Original message
4. Hardly surprising
People are pretty gullible and eager to get quick fixes. I would suppose that the majority of people who want to take vitamins either have real or psychosomatic health worries. Perhaps these worries aren't always misgiven or perhaps they weigh so heavily on the mind that real illnesses follow...

Perhaps these are the same people who buy the diet drugs and the penis enlarging pills. There must be enough idiots to keep this going.
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bicentennial_baby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-28-07 08:35 PM
Response to Reply #4
14. Um, what's up Mr Canada?
:wtf:

CT?
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cgrindley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-28-07 08:42 PM
Response to Reply #14
22. Nutrients
Eat sensibly, eat well, don't eat junk food, you'll get all the stuff you need from the good honest foods you'll consume.

Vitamins are hugely expensive and utterly unnecessary. They're a waste of money that could be spent buying better quality produce or organic meats.
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HarukaTheTrophyWife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-28-07 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #22
31. ...
:spray:
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BuddhaGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-28-07 11:38 PM
Response to Reply #22
72. gee, and that's why so many M.D.'s have started
recommending them, right? :eyes:
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Boojatta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-01-07 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #22
120. The OP mentions only anti-oxidants, but you are making a claim
about "vitamins" in general.

You mentioned organic meats and you said that vitamins are "hugely expensive." How does the cost of two months' worth of organic meats compare with the cost of a bottle of 60 vitamin B12 tablets?

There are various vitamins and minerals that are added to things that people eat. For example, many kinds of table salt contain potassium iodide. Pasta, bread, milk, and soy beverages are often fortified. Veggie burgers often contain added B12 and other vitamins. Do you think that food manufacturers should stop adding vitamins and/or minerals to things you eat? Do you want everyone to simply assume that vitamins and/or minerals added right now are and will continue to be added in the right amount?
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-28-07 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #4
25. Oh yeah.
Taking vitamins is just a waste of time and effort. Just ask my husband. In 2001, he was diagnosed with Hepatitus C--his liver was in very bad shape by the time they found it. The doctor prescribed high doses of Vitamin C in an IV with Alpha Lipoic Acid. Two years ago, lab tests confirmed he no longer has the problem, and his liver functions are back to normal. Guess he should have been put on those heavy duty drugs, because everyone knows they are soooo much better than vitamins, right? :sarcasm:

Or do you think he imagined the Hep C and imagined the liver damage that independent lab tests showed he had?
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cgrindley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-28-07 09:11 PM
Response to Reply #25
40. I believe
that your husband dodged a bullet and that he was lucky that quack medicine didn't kill him.
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-28-07 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #40
43. funny, isn't it,
that what you call "quack medicine" cured what conventional medicine has said is an incurable disease.....he has had friends who went on interferon (the conventional medicine) the same time he started his treatment-one is dead, another is covered with sores and cannot work.

But if you believe in drugs first and foremost, by all means take the drugs. Leave me with the "quack medicine", since I know it works.
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cgrindley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-28-07 09:20 PM
Response to Reply #43
48. The "drug" in question
has not been subject to any meaningful scientific review except for some isolated and quite specific tests on diabetes in rats.

It's up to you if you want to take a risk, but until the science is there, I'll be sticking to my guns and asserting that seeking those sorts of treatments is unwise at best.
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HysteryDiagnosis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-28-07 09:31 PM
Response to Reply #48
50. Unwise at best, and the winner is?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=16959685&query_hl=3&itool=pubmed_docsum
Diabetic ulcers: microcirculatory improvement and faster healing with pycnogenol.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=17067979&query_hl=3&itool=pubmed_docsum
Rapid relief of signs/symptoms in chronic venous microangiopathy with pycnogenol: a prospective, controlled study.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=11351356&query_hl=9&itool=pubmed_docsum
Treatment of vascular retinopathies with Pycnogenol.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=17178700&query_hl=11&itool=pubmed_docsum
Improvement of insulin sensitivity in patients with type 2 diabetes mellitus after oral administration of alpha-lipoic acid.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=17099420&query_hl=11&itool=pubmed_docsum
Clinical applications of lipoic acid in type II diabetes mellitus.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=17065669&query_hl=14&itool=pubmed_docsum
Oral treatment with alpha-lipoic acid improves symptomatic diabetic polyneuropathy: the SYDNEY 2 trial.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=16407731&query_hl=16&itool=pubmed_docsum
Supplemental conditionally essential nutrients in cardiovascular disease therapy.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=14695928&query_hl=16&itool=pubmed_docsum
Can coenzyme Q10 improve vascular function and blood pressure? Potential for effective therapeutic reduction in vascular oxidative stress.
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cgrindley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-28-07 09:35 PM
Response to Reply #50
53. But we weren't talking diabetes
we were talking Hep-C. I've already said that there are some preliminary results on Diabetes.
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HysteryDiagnosis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-28-07 09:39 PM
Response to Reply #53
55. Oh, my bad....
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=10554539&query_hl=22&itool=pubmed_docsum
The author offers a more conservative approach to the treatment of hepatitis C, that is exceedingly less expensive. One year of the triple antioxidant therapy described in this paper costs less than $2,000, as compared to mor than $300,000 a year for liver transplant surgery. It appears reasonable, that prior to liver transplant surgery evaluation, or during the transplant evaluation process, the conservative triple antioxidant treatment approach should be considered. If these is a significant betterment in the patient's condition, liver transplant surgery may be avoided.

PMID: 10554539


1: J Clin Gastroenterol. 2005 Sep;39(8):737-42.Click here to read Links
Treatment of chronic hepatitis C virus infection via antioxidants: results of a phase I clinical trial.

* Melhem A,
* Stern M,
* Shibolet O,
* Israeli E,
* Ackerman Z,
* Pappo O,
* Hemed N,
* Rowe M,
* Ohana H,
* Zabrecky G,
* Cohen R,
* Ilan Y.

Liver Unit, Department of Medicine, Hebrew University, Hadassah Medical Center, Jerusalem, Israel.

BACKGROUND: The pathogenesis of chronic hepatitis C virus (HCV) infection is associated with a defective host antiviral immune response and intrahepatic oxidative stress. Oxidative stress and lipid peroxidation play major roles in the fatty liver accumulation (steatosis) that leads to necro-inflammation and necrosis of hepatic cells. Previous trials suggested that antioxidative therapy may have a beneficial effect on patients with chronic HCV infection. AIMS: To determine the safety and efficacy of treatment of chronic HCV patients via a combination of antioxidants. METHODS: Fifty chronic HCV patients were treated orally on a daily basis for 20 weeks with seven antioxidative oral preparations (glycyrrhizin, schisandra, silymarin, ascorbic acid, lipoic acid, L-glutathione, and alpha-tocopherol), along with four different intravenous preparations (glycyrrhizin, ascorbic acid, L-glutathione, B-complex) twice weekly for the first 10 weeks, and followed up for an additional 20 weeks. Patients were monitored for HCV-RNA levels, liver enzymes, and liver histology. Assessment of quality of life was performed using the SF-36 questionnaire. RESULTS: In one of the tested parameters (eg, liver enzymes, HCV RNA levels, or liver biopsy score), a combination of antioxidants induced a favorable response in 48% of the patients (24). Normalization of liver enzymes occurred in 44% of patients who had elevated pretreatment ALT levels (15 of 34). ALT levels remained normal throughout follow-up period in 72.7% (8 of 11). A decrease in viral load (one log or more) was observed in 25% of the patients (12). Histologic improvement (2-point reduction in the HAI score) was noted in 36.1% of the patients. The SF-36 score improved in 26 of 45 patients throughout the course of the trial (58% of the patients). Treatment was well tolerated by all patients. No major adverse reactions were noted. CONCLUSIONS: These data suggest that multi antioxidative treatment in chronic HCV patients is well tolerated and may have a beneficial effect on necro-inflammatory variables. A combination of antiviral and antioxidative therapies may enhance the overall response rate of these patients.

PMID: 16082287


1: Posit Health News. 1998 Fall;(No 17):14-5. Links
Hepatitis viral load correlates to glutathione levels.



AIDS: Several recent scientific articles have found a direct correlation between Glutathione levels and viral activity for hepatitis B and C. When viral load increases, Glutathione decreases. Researchers from Germany report that adding NAC (N-acetyl cysteine) to HBV producing cells lines can reduce hepatitis viral load 50 fold. Glutathione is used by the liver to help break down toxins. Patients who have chronic infection for more than 90 days should ask their physicians to check their Glutathione levels. A test kit is available from ImmunoSciences Labs; contact information is included. An amino acid, L-Glutamine, can be used with Alpha Lipoic Acid and NAC to increase Glutathione levels. Chlorophyll also offers benefits to people with hepatitis and other infections. Instructions on how to use a special retention enema containing chlorophyll, water, and apple cider vinegar are provided.

PMID: 11366543

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cgrindley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-28-07 09:47 PM
Response to Reply #55
61. But that's just one study and it
used a broad spectrum of 11 anti-oxidants administered in two different ways for over a year and it still didn't help the majority of patients in the study. The OP in this part of thread, on the other hand, only cited vitamin C and lipoic acid.
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HysteryDiagnosis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-28-07 09:51 PM
Response to Reply #61
62. Intravenous lipoic acid alone saved two couples from total liver
failure after consuming amanita mushrooms... I have the book, it's GREAT reading.

http://www.amazon.com/Alpha-Lipoic-Acid-Breakthrough-Antioxidant/dp/0761514570/sr=8-1/qid=1172717394/ref=sr_1_1/102-8763139-8872943?ie=UTF8&s=books
http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/0761514570.01._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-dp-500-arrow,TopRight,45,-64_OU01_AA240_SH20_SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg

38 of 42 people found the following review helpful:
Very informative and helpful and true, written by himself., June 12, 1999
Reviewer: A reader
In the introductory of The Alpha Lipoic Acid book, written by Dr. Burt Berkson, my husband John and I, Eunice Goostree, are the people that Dr. Burt were refering to. We ate the Amanita Verna Mushroom and John nearly died. Thioctic Acid, liquid form of Alpha Lipoic Acid is all that saved us. When the chief of staff at the hospital gave up on us, Dr. Berkson KNEW that he could save us and to the amazement of all others, we are alive and well.I cannot say enough good things about Dr. Berkson, his books, his ethics, his compassion and his determination to save his patients even when all of the odds were against him. We love you Dr. Berkson.
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cgrindley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-28-07 10:00 PM
Response to Reply #62
64. I'm sorry but that's not an academic press
I thought you said your husband had Hep C. So it was Amanita poisoning instead?
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HysteryDiagnosis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-28-07 10:08 PM
Response to Reply #64
67. No, I didn't say my husband had anything.... wrong poster sorry....
But I guess I can add this for you....


Alpha Liopic Acid breakthru, September 27, 2000
Reviewer: A reader
Everyone in America needs to read this book!! Anyone in America that has a liver problem, from Hepatitis C to liver cancer can get get better from taking this product. We have been to Dr. Berkson's office, and he is a marvelous Dr.!! You should have some kind of review to let people know about this book.

Add ALA to your daily supplements!, August 8, 2000
Reviewer: Miguel Sosas (Los Angeles, CA) - See all my reviews
Dr. Berkson has put his research and findings into terms that all can
understand. I had hepititis and recovered, but suffered from minor
liver malfunctions which triggered constipation and poor digestion of
fats. Merely the addition of Alpha Lipoic Acid has helped restore my
liver function and aleviated my problems. I've gained much usable
information from his book about preventing heart disease, a family
problem....I am thankful that I have finally found a supplement that
has helped me with those continuing liver related problems.

Had hepititis - ALA helps., July 24, 2000
Reviewer: Malcolm G. Sands (Sherman Oaks, CA) - See all my reviews
Dr. Berkson is a marvel. He has taken the time and energy to put his
research and findings into terms that all can understand. I had
hepititis and recovered, but suffered from minor liver malfunctions
which triggered constipation and poor digestion of fats. The Alpha
Lipoic Acid has helped restore my liver function and aleviated my
problems. I've gained much usable information from his book....

Encouraging for Diabetics, February 27, 2000
Reviewer: A reader
I began taking a-lipoic acid and achieving great results before this book was published. It was encouraging to finally read a book that validated my experience with lipoic acid. This book explains a-lipoic acid in layman's terms and sheds light on the value of this nutrient. As a Type I diabetic of 36 years, I have essentially reversed diabetic neuropathy by taking 900 mg of a-lipoic acid per day. I highly encourage diabetics to research a-lipoic acid especially if suffering from neuropathy. This book is a great start.

The best book out there on the subject!, October 26, 1998
Reviewer: A reader
It seems that after twenty years, this integral story vital to our understanding and improving of modern medicine is being told. Everyone interested in health and healing must read this book. In it, Dr. Berkson recounts his tales from his own personal experiences from treating patients dealing with a wide array of health problems with this amazing antioxidant. The author explains the mechanisms of alpha lipoic acid and the significance it can play in the treatment of cancer, diabetes, and numerous other diseases. Dr. Berkson also diagnoses an easy to follow and effective protocol to healthy living. The author is obviously the premier authority in this field and spins his tale with remarkably clear and engaging prose. The message of this book is simple: alpha lipoic acid has saved lives before and, as more people are educated on it's uses, there are many more lives that will be saved and improved. A must read for anyone remotely interested in the exciting field of modern integrative medicine.
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cgrindley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-01-07 05:27 AM
Response to Reply #67
83. Sorry I got confused
I'm still confused
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karlrschneider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-28-07 10:52 PM
Response to Reply #55
70. I have a abetter idea:
"Instructions on how to use a special retention enema containing chlorophyll, water, and apple cider vinegar are provided."
===============================================================================================

I think I'd just as soon shove an apple and a bag of spinach up my ass.

:eyes:
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HysteryDiagnosis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-01-07 06:27 AM
Response to Reply #70
87. You couldn't get enough spinach in your arse to equal the amounts of
CoQ10 and other sundry items necessary to have therapeutic effects.... I'm just guessing on that.


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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-01-07 07:40 AM
Response to Reply #48
89. Interferon
has been used for years by MDs. That is the main type of treatment used for Hep C--or the alternative. If you were diagnosed with it today, which route would you take? From what you have said, sounds like you wouldn't do anything.
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HysteryDiagnosis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-28-07 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #4
45. Actually I need a drug to enhance smallness..... n/t
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Robbien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-28-07 08:20 PM
Response to Original message
5. "This study does not advance our understanding, and could easily lead
to misinterpretation of the data," said Stampfer, who was not connected to the new report.

"Only when they included and excluded certain trials were they able to find this alleged increase in mortality, which they themselves can't explain," Shao said. "There is plenty of data out there that show regular use of antioxidant supplements help to maintain health."





This analysis is so flawed that they couldn't even get through the whole article without listing so many ways where their findings are just down right stupid.

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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-28-07 08:20 PM
Response to Original message
6. "Study based on flawed methodology"
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Cetacea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-01-07 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #6
108. Like the other ones similar to this have been.
As I said in another post, these swift-boat studies have been happening since Two-time Nobel Laurette Linus Pauling began championing Vitamin C.

For each one of these flawed studies that surface every two years, there are literally thousands of positive studies over the last 40 years showing benefits of nutrient supplementation.
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Lurking Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-28-07 08:23 PM
Response to Original message
7. FYI
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jebediah Donating Member (111 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-28-07 08:27 PM
Response to Original message
8. here's another counter view...
I don't know if it's an exact response to this study, but it's relevant:

The latest round in conventional medicine's ongoing attempts to discredit (and ultimately outlaw) nutritional supplements is found in a highly questionable study published this week in the Journal of the American Medical Association, which claims that vitamins actually increase the risk of death.

The study claims to have analyzed a collection of previous studies on Vitamin A, beta carotene, Vitamin C, Vitamin E and selenium, concluding that most of the nutrients are actually dangerous to human health. Of course, this is research from conventional medicine – an industry that promotes patented chemicals as perfectly safe, even though FDA-approved pharmaceuticals are killing 100,000 Americans each year. (Imagine the uproar if vitamins killed even a fraction of that number…)

To avoid getting hoodwinked by questionable research on "vitamins," you have to strongly consider the financial interests of the source of this research. JAMA accepts millions of dollars in advertising from drug companies each year, and its pages are absolutely packed with drug ads. The American Medical Association, for its part, has long worked to discredit alternative medicine and has even been found guilty by U.S. federal courts of engaging in a conspiracy to destroy chiropractic medicine. The AMA, which is largely considered a joke by anyone familiar with natural health, is hardly a credible source for publishing scientific findings on nutrition. To protect the multi-billion dollar drug industry, the AMA would say practically anything, I believe.

(more...)

http://www.newstarget.com/021653.html
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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-01-07 08:29 AM
Response to Reply #8
90. Sure are lots of ads for supplements at that site.
I take one (1) multi-vitamin/mineral pill a day. Doubt that will cause any damage.

But handfuls of pills are handfuls of pills--whether they're "natural" vitamins or synthetic. Perhaps some MD's get results in specific cases; megadosing yourself is pretty silly. At the very least, you'll flush money down the drain.
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renate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-01-07 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #8
114. welcome to DU!
:hi:
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HysteryDiagnosis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-28-07 08:27 PM
Response to Original message
9. Resveratrol from red wine... I'll take it anytime......
From your article.....

>>Gluud said most of the studies didn't reveal why those taking supplements died, but "in all likelihood, what they died from is what people normally die from, maybe accelerated artherosclerosis, maybe cancer."

Antioxidant supplements have been tested repeatedly by many clinical trials with no consistent clear evidence for their health effects, Gluud said.<<

>>Alice Lichtenstein, a professor of nutrition science and policy at Tufts University who was not involved with the research, said the study's main message is: "Rely on food to get your nutrients."<<


http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/medicalnews.php?newsid=38094
Resveratrol Prolongs Lifespan And Delays The Onset Of Aging-related Traits In A Short-lived Vertebrate
Main Category: Seniors / Aging News
Article Date: 21 Feb 2006 - 7:00 PST
| email this article | printer friendly | view or write opinions |
Article Also Appears In

* Neurology / Neuroscience
* Biology / Biochemistry



A natural compound could become the starting molecule for the design of drugs for the prevention of human aging-related diseases.

A new study provides evidence that resveratrol, previously shown to extend lifespan in non-vertebrate organisms, can also do so in at least one vertebrate species. The findings support the potential utility of the compound in human aging research.

The development of drugs able to retard the onset of aging-related diseases and improve quality of life in the elderly is a growing focus of aging research and public health in modern society, and a great challenge for biotech and pharmaceutical industry. But the successful development of drugs aimed at aging-related diseases needs to face the challenge posed by the lifespan of the available animal models-mammalian models for aging are relatively long-lived and aren't as easily studied as shorter-lived species.

Resveratrol is an organic compound naturally present in grapes-and particularly enriched in red wine-and was previously shown to prolong lifespan in non-vertebrate model organisms such as yeast, the worm C. elegans, and the fruit fly Drosophila. However, until now, life-long pharmacological trials were performed in the worm or fly model organisms because of their very small size, very short natural lifespan, and affordable cultivation costs. Laboratory mice, on the other hand, live more than two years and are relatively expensive to maintain, making large-scale, life-long pharmacological trials in mice unaffordable.

Recently, the seasonal fish Nothobranchius furzeri, a small fish species with captive lifespan of only three months, was described by Cellerino and colleagues; Lay Line Genomics a company focused on neurodegenerative and ageing related diseases, has developed this organism into a unique animal model to isolate new molecular targets controlling aging in vertebrates and for screening anti-aging compounds (T.Genade, M.Benedetti, E.Terzibasi, P.Roncaglia, D.R.Valenzano, A.Cattaneo, A.Cellerino: Annual fishes of the genus Nothobranchius as a model system for ageing research, Aging Cells, 2005)



http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct/show/NCT00098969;jsessionid=2FDA43304BB3A3C1E46BBFF142C65F89?order=3
Resveratrol in Preventing Cancer in Healthy Participants

This study is currently recruiting patients.
Verified by National Cancer Institute (NCI) January 2007

http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct/show/NCT00433576;jsessionid=72E9F0B666EF6794E081EBC79CAA4A34?order=13
Resveratrol in Treating Patients With Colorectal Cancer That Can Be Removed By Surgery

This study is currently recruiting patients.
Verified by National Cancer Institute (NCI) February 2007



1: Cell. 2006 Dec 15;127(6):1109-22. Epub 2006 Nov 16.

Comment in:
Cell. 2006 Dec 15;127(6):1091-3.

Resveratrol improves mitochondrial function and protects against metabolic disease by activating SIRT1 and PGC-1alpha.

* Lagouge M,
* Argmann C,
* Gerhart-Hines Z,
* Meziane H,
* Lerin C,
* Daussin F,
* Messadeq N,
* Milne J,
* Lambert P,
* Elliott P,
* Geny B,
* Laakso M,
* Puigserver P,
* Auwerx J.

Institut de Genetique et de Biologie Moleculaire et Cellulaire, CNRS / INSERM / ULP, 67404 Illkirch, France.

Diminished mitochondrial oxidative phosphorylation and aerobic capacity are associated with reduced longevity. We tested whether resveratrol (RSV), which is known to extend lifespan, impacts mitochondrial function and metabolic homeostasis. Treatment of mice with RSV significantly increased their aerobic capacity, as evidenced by their increased running time and consumption of oxygen in muscle fibers. RSV's effects were associated with an induction of genes for oxidative phosphorylation and mitochondrial biogenesis and were largely explained by an RSV-mediated decrease in PGC-1alpha acetylation and an increase in PGC-1alpha activity. This mechanism is consistent with RSV being a known activator of the protein deacetylase, SIRT1, and by the lack of effect of RSV in SIRT1(-/-) MEFs. Importantly, RSV treatment protected mice against diet-induced-obesity and insulin resistance. These pharmacological effects of RSV combined with the association of three Sirt1 SNPs and energy homeostasis in Finnish subjects implicates SIRT1 as a key regulator of energy and metabolic homeostasis.

PMID: 17112576
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aint_no_life_nowhere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-01-07 01:21 AM
Response to Reply #9
74. Resveratrol is one of the best anti-oxidants you can take
Anti-oxidant vitamins like E and C don't really get rid of the vast majority of free radicals. But there's no doubt that oxidative stress is one of the principal causes of damage to the body as we age. The bottles of capsules in health food store resveratrol will often be misleading, describing total polygonum cuspidatum (Japanese knotweed) without clearly revealing the very small amount of that consisting of pure resveratrol. If you're getting 20 mg or more a capsule, you're lucky. Most of the over-the-counter capsules containing resveratrol really have a very small, small amount, much smaller than the doses that could be effective in humans. To equal the percentage of doses per body weight as those in the animal studies, you would have to take somewhere between 100mg to 150mg per day. Unfortunately, there are no commercial products containing pure resveratrol and the scientists in the studies had it specially manufactured from a lab in India (not extracted from grapes or the more common Japanese knotweed, but entirely synthetic).

And resveratrol is much more than just an anti-oxidant. The Harvard Medical School study headed by Dr. Sinclair published last November, 2006 in the journal "Nature" demonstrated a significant prolongation of life of laboratory rats in the study. But the rats were fed high doses of purely synthetic resveratrol. It seems that resveratrol activates a protein in the body called SIRT1 that has a similar effect on the prolongation of life as a low calorie or calorie-restricted diet.
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hlthe2b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-28-07 08:32 PM
Response to Original message
12. Meta analyses of multiple studies are prone to problems...
Edited on Wed Feb-28-07 08:34 PM by hlthe2b
since-- at their heart-- these are apples and oranges comparisons involving multiple studies with multiple differing methodologies and study designs.

I'd take the finding of increased risk with a big grain of salt...

Having said that, clearly some of the mega vitamin mineral supplements are just making some companies wealthy (and some very expensive urine). But, I also do not believe it is easy to get all the recommended nutrients from diet alone, in today's culture.


The other thing to keep in mind is that one vitamin and one mineral (e.g., vitamin D and Magnesium) have in recent years been found to be deficient in diets of most people in industrialized countries and the documented adverse health consequences of deficiencies are substantial, as those who are following the peer-reviewed cancer, chronic disease and nutritional literature can attest.

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HysteryDiagnosis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-28-07 08:35 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. Bottled water, filtered water, and even the effects of straight
calcium supplements that lack magnesium can contribute to a mag deficiency and the results of that can be truly damaging to a person's overall wellness.
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hlthe2b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-28-07 08:42 PM
Response to Reply #13
21. yes..that's right ... eom
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Catchawave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-28-07 08:36 PM
Response to Original message
16. Bet I can trace this "study" back to
the Pharma Lobbyists :toast:

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HysteryDiagnosis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-28-07 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. The masters of skewed results and medicines for diseases that
don't exist.
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bluetrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-01-07 03:28 AM
Response to Reply #20
81. Are you one of the smoking nazis or do you just use the same avatar?
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HysteryDiagnosis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-01-07 06:19 AM
Response to Reply #81
84. Smoking Nazi. n/t
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karlrschneider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-28-07 08:59 PM
Response to Reply #16
34. Pharma lobbyists put out a study saying their product decreases life span?
Wow.
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Catchawave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-28-07 09:14 PM
Response to Reply #34
42. Are these BIG Pharma products?
Edited on Wed Feb-28-07 09:17 PM by Catchawave
I.don't.think.so.

Edit to add BIG to Pharma.

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Rainscents Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-28-07 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #16
59. I bet, you bet right!!!
PHARMA WANTS US SICK... so they can make more money!!!
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Catchawave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-28-07 10:00 PM
Response to Reply #59
63. There ya go!!!!
Whew and thanks :hi:
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Cetacea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-01-07 09:44 AM
Response to Reply #16
98. You are correct!
It's called swift boating, yes?


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jeffrey_X Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-01-07 10:06 AM
Response to Reply #16
101. Good call.
eom
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-28-07 08:40 PM
Response to Original message
19. A lot depends upon what kind of Vitamin E they are talking about
Edited on Wed Feb-28-07 08:41 PM by ayeshahaqqiqa
There is more than one kind of Vitamin E, and also more than one kind of study--what I'd like to know is who funded this study that is so full of caveats. You may wish to read this article, which addresses concerns about Vitamin E-- and addresses how various studies have been made:

http://www.futurevisionsfoundation.org/VitaminE.htm

Here's one paragraph from the article:

Now we are aware that there are many forms of vitamin E, yet the RDA for humans was derived from rat studies. Rats need alpha tocopherol. Humans don’t require as much alpha tocopherol. As this last decade has unfolded, it becomes clear that humans actually need gamma tocopherol, particularly for heart health. It has also become clear that the tocotrienols are an important, in that they have the ability to reduce cholesterol production. Tocotrienols work on the same cholesterol production pathway as the –statin drugs, but can reduce cholesterol without blocking Coenzyme Q-10 production like –statins do.


BTW, my husband was diagnosed with Hepatitus C in 2001. The doctor who wrote this article put him on IVs with massive doses of Vitamin C and Alpha Limpoic Acid. Friends said the high doses would kill him. Well, it's six years later and the liver tests for the last two years show normal liver function--this from a fellow who was close to having his liver shut down in 2001. Of course, anti-vitamin doctors would have put him on interferon right away, and he may have been covered with sores and unable to work like a friend of his who was diagnosed with the same disease at the same time but who went to a different doctor.
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HysteryDiagnosis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-28-07 08:43 PM
Response to Reply #19
23. Bravo.... Dr. Berkson's lipoic acid treatment lives on in your
husband.... pity the ones condemned to waiting for their livers to cash out while not knowing there is something out there that can protect the liver in such a manner.
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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-28-07 08:45 PM
Response to Original message
24. AntiOxidant "Overdose"
During the 1990's, researchers began to conduct very large-scale studies (involving tens of thousands of participants) to determine the benefits of antioxidants in fairly high doses. The Alpha-Tocopherol, Beta-Carotene, and Cancer prevention study (ATBC), the Physicians' Health Study (PHS), the Beta-Carotene and Retinol Efficacy Trial (CARET), and the Skin Cancer Prevention Study (SCPS) were among these large-scale studies. One very unexpected result in several of these studies was the fact that antioxidant dietary supplements actually raised increased the risk of disease instead of lowering it. In fact, some studies were abruptly canceled, with letters being sent to participants, explaining that antioxidant supplementation seemed to be putting them at greater health risk. While many of these studies have been criticized, and their results debated among scientists, this decade of research changed our thinking about antioxidants and their health role. What we are now realizing is that it is not just antioxidants working in isolation that have benefits but that antioxidants need each other to function optimally and promote our optimal health.

The problem with thinking about antioxidants as "good guys" is that every antioxidant can become a prooxidant, i.e., it can reverse its role in our metabolism. In chemical terms, when a substance functions as an antioxidant, what it does it give away an electron. Electron-give-away is what antioxidants do. (This potential power for giving away electrons is called reduction potential).

What's so good about a compound that gives away electrons is that it can donate it to a "reactive" substance that is in need of one since substances in our body can become far too reactive when they are left with an uneven number of electrons. (Electrons like to exist in pairs, and don't like being "unpaired"). One leftover electron is enough to cause trouble.



http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=george&dbid=143
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Mr. Ected Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-28-07 08:54 PM
Response to Original message
28. Scientists' Next Assignment: Debunk Global Warming Theories
"We think we can cook the data on THAT too"
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-28-07 09:06 PM
Response to Original message
38. Study Citing Antioxidant Vitamin Risks Based On Flawed Methodology, Experts Argue
Science Daily — A study recently published on possible health risks of antioxidant supplements is based on flawed methodology and ignores the broad totality of evidence that comes to largely opposite conclusions, say experts from the Linus Pauling Institute at Oregon State University.

The research, which was published in this week’s edition of the Journal of the American Medical Association, concluded that antioxidant supplements such as vitamins A and E may “significantly increase mortality,” and that there was no evidence for any positive effect of vitamin C in the reduction of mortality rates.

However, Balz Frei, professor and director of one of the world’s leading institutes that studies the possible health value of vitamins, phytochemicals and micronutrients, said that the new study’s focus on a selected group of clinical trials disregards the results of other more positive trials, as well as huge amounts of laboratory, animal, and human observational and experimental data.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/02/070228172604.htm

DU link to topic:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2750294
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-28-07 09:08 PM
Response to Original message
39. A,and E you can over dose on as are stored in fat.
C is not fat soluble, is water soluble, passes out of system if not used.
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HysteryDiagnosis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-28-07 09:20 PM
Response to Reply #39
49. A and E just ran a special on this exact topic!!! This is HUGH!!! n/t
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Vincenzio Donating Member (6 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-28-07 09:20 PM
Response to Original message
47. Doses of vitamins have nothing to do with their effectiveness...
it's their source and their mixture. Whole raw fresh foods have total nutrition with nature's correct mixture. Most vitamins are made of pretty crude stuff- just because they test out to be made up of a certain vitamin doesn't mean they are in a state that is readily absorbed by our bodies. Even chelated and multiples are poor attempts at mimicking nature.

That "the actual cause of death in most studies was unknown" this is a ludicrous statement either way.

Why be concerned about extending life? I'm more concerned about quality of life.
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HysteryDiagnosis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-28-07 09:35 PM
Response to Reply #47
51. Welcome to DU Vincenzio, foodform vitamins produced by Intracell
are a pretty good second to whole food.... especially if you have a condition that warrants larger than normal amounts of certain nutrients in order to improve the quality of your life.
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Madspirit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-28-07 09:38 PM
Response to Original message
54. Who What Where
What right-wing company/think tank/pharmaceutical company did this survey or PAID to have it done?
I'm old. I know what has helped me.
Lee
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B Calm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-28-07 09:41 PM
Response to Original message
56. But.. I need my Glucosamine, Vitamin C, E, B 12, B 6 and
Edited on Wed Feb-28-07 09:41 PM by B Calm
stool softeners...
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HysteryDiagnosis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-28-07 10:14 PM
Response to Reply #56
68. I just went out and added 4 quarts of oil to my car....... anything
happen while I was gone?

PS: The paint even looks better now....

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=522805
Background
The influence of ageing on the density of the functional entities of the papillae containing nutritive capillaries, here in terms as the papillary index, and the effect of topically applied vitamin C were investigated by confocal laser scanning microscopy (CLSM) in vivo.

Methods
The age dependency of the papillary index was determined by CLSM on 3 different age groups. Additionally, we determined the effect of a topical cream containing 3% vitamin C against the vehicle alone using daily applications for four months on the volar forearm of 33 women.

Results
There were significant decreases in the papillary index showing a clear dependency on age. Topical vitamin C resulted in a significant increase of the density of dermal papillae from 4 weeks onward compared to its vehicle. Reproducibility was determined in repeated studies.

Conclusions
Vitamin C has the potential to enhance the density of dermal papillae, perhaps through the mechanism of angiogenesis. Topical vitamin C may have therapeutical effects for partial corrections of the regressive structural changes associated with the aging process.
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-01-07 03:12 AM
Response to Reply #56
76. Are you a 77 year old waitress working 12-14 hrs a day? n/t
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B Calm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-01-07 06:23 AM
Response to Reply #76
86. Dumb old truck driver.. Hell I even take Tahitian Noni Juice too..
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Cetacea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-28-07 11:31 PM
Response to Original message
71. This is funny, Every 5 years another flawed study pops up
This has been going on since the early eighties.
I really do wonder why the recent discovery that Intravenous Vitamin C has a near 100 percent success rate (!) destroying lymphoma tumours hasn't gotten as much attention as this rehashed nonsense.
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Rainscents Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-28-07 11:49 PM
Response to Reply #71
73. Do you suppose, more and more people are turning to
natural alternative and people are waking up to the fact that, most of their (Pharma) drugs aren't working and making people more sick? So, of course, they have to pay someone to counter alternative remedies. Your right, this been going on on and off since 80's.
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-01-07 03:16 AM
Response to Reply #73
77. I made my husbands doctor mad at me,. but i don;t care..
I went to the medical group and DEMANDED that he be referred to an endocrinologist.

He's diabetic (skinny as a rail) and every time he sees his regular doctor he ends up with another prescription, and every time he has more reactions and the need for MORE pills..

The poor guy's taking about 8 pills, and some are the SAME drug, just different strengths.

he;s got NO energy, is tired all the time, and feels shitty a lot of the time. He actually feels better when he FORGETS some meds..

I wanted him evaluated by a specialist to see if he really needs all these pills..

they gave us the referral :)
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Cetacea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-01-07 10:33 AM
Response to Reply #77
109. check out Gary Null
The guy is a walking encyclopedia on nutrients and studies. He's been researching this stuff since the 1960's. I think his site is garynull.com.

Good luck. Many doctors do not have the time to keep up to date with the research, and others shouldn't be in the healing professions at all.
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Cetacea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-01-07 09:35 AM
Response to Reply #73
96. Yes, a trend that grew legs in the 80's and keeps growing
Most educated people know that a wholesome diet of polluted food stripped most of it's nutrients doesn't make for a healthy body. What was true for Grandma is only partially true today.
Also, I realized that nutrient supplement swift boating started in the 70's with a Readers Digest article stating that taking Vitamin C caused kidney Stones. From what I know, the author was neither a biologist or a doctor!
As there were only a few magazines out at that time, there are still people who believe this to be fact. Who owns Readers Digest?
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Lurking Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-01-07 09:49 AM
Response to Reply #96
100. Wasn't it even earlier than that?
I remember Let's Get Well by Adelle Davis was a big seller and that came out in the 60's.

Hell, that book is so good I still use it.
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Cetacea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-01-07 10:39 AM
Response to Reply #100
110. Yes. I meant the swift boating by Big Pharma
In the sixties, they could dimiss the few authors and their followers as "Health Nuts". No big threat. But once a Two Time Nobel Prize winner(one in biochemistry,I believe) began educating people on how to cure or lessen the severity of various illnesses with a cheap vitamin, a concerted effort was born. Thanks for reminding me of that book!
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Lurking Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-01-07 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #110
111. Ah! Gotcha!
Since I was one of the "health nuts" it seemed like it was going on longer! LOL!
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-01-07 03:06 AM
Response to Original message
75. I'm gonna give you life-extending advice for FREE..
Edited on Thu Mar-01-07 03:08 AM by SoCalDem
1. eat good food in moderation (fresh is better)
2. exercise regularly
3. vices in moderation (smoking is bad for you in any usage)
4. work at what you love, instead of trying to love your work
5. remember what your grandma told you..she was right
6. avoid stress with the 100 year plan.. (whatever it is that's bugging you, it won;t matter at all in 100 years ..unless you are George Bush)
7. take as little "medicine" as possible (side effects can be worse that what ails you)
8. wash your hands wash your hands wash your hands wash your hands wash your hands wash your hands (unless you have OCD:evilgrin:..)
9. "fast food" is usually bad for you

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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-01-07 03:19 AM
Response to Original message
78. Yeah, well, frequent sex and/or masturbation still reduces men's risk of prostate cancer.
Man, that must piss the church off to NO end.

http://psa-rising.com/med/prevention/ejaculation72003.shtml


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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-01-07 03:22 AM
Response to Reply #78
80. They need an excuse??
:rofl:
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-01-07 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #80
117. No, but it's nice to know I was such a health nut as a youngster. nt
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devilgrrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-01-07 03:19 AM
Response to Original message
79. That reminds me, I have to take my vitamins today!
:7
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-01-07 04:31 AM
Response to Original message
82. Can I PLEASE start smoking again?
Any year now the news will come out how crucial it is for good health, I can just feel it.
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HysteryDiagnosis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-01-07 06:22 AM
Response to Original message
85. I met a sixty something lady in the P.O. who was diagnosed with
very high BP. She was put on three (3) BP meds. Today she takes salmon oil, her BP is AOK. Cheaper, therapeutically beneficial for her heart and many other organs, up to and including the brain, and did I mention cheaper??
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GreenZoneLT Donating Member (805 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-01-07 06:38 AM
Response to Original message
88. Figures. Probably increased stomach cancer
Any benefit from the extra vitamins is no doubt more than offset by the downside of eating so many pills. Trauma of any sort can cause tumors.

Guess we'll just have to turn to the wacky fad of a balanced diet high in whole grains, fresh fruits and vegetables, regular exercise and drinking in moderation. I know, it's pretty out there, but a lot of people claim it's good for you.

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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-01-07 08:41 AM
Response to Reply #88
91. But whole grains, fresh fruits & vegetables actually require chewing!
Washing a handful of vitamins down with calorie-laden juice is so much easier. Add medicine to keep the digestive system moving--since it's not being used to digest actual food.

The produce department is full of sweet tangerines & lovely red grapefruits during "cold season." Adele Davis pointed out that the fruits themselves have ingredients besides Vitamin C.

People bitch about Big Pharm--out for a buck. Quite true. But all those sites deriding modern medicine are full of ads for supplements. Available at a price.
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Thothmes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-01-07 09:03 AM
Response to Original message
92. Antioxidants
IMO The real problem is people are basically lazy. Take a pill, live longer, faster easier that working on eating a well balanced diet. When our ancestors swung out of the trees 4 million years ago, they didn't need vitamin supplements to survive while living on a diet of fruits, foliage and occasional meat. Two million years ago, our truly bipedal ancestors still lived quite well on a diet of fruits, foliage, and an increasing amount of meat. When agriculture came along, humans did quiet well on a diet of fruits, foliage, grains and meat. Almost 4 million years of human evolution without diet supplements. A balanced diet, is generally sufficient for most humans to keep you healthy.
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Cetacea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-01-07 09:16 AM
Response to Reply #92
93. self-delete: moved
Edited on Thu Mar-01-07 09:37 AM by Artiechoke
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geomon666 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-01-07 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #92
115. Thank you.
If you don't have a vitamin deficiency problem, why the hell are you taking vitamins?
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HysteryDiagnosis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-01-07 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #92
121. If you can get them vine ripened you should be good to go. That
isn't always the case, most are picked green.... then chemically treated to add color.
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Cetacea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-01-07 09:40 AM
Response to Original message
97. swift boating suppliments
Today's headlines have Ice Cream increasing fertility.
Out with the nutrients, in with the saturated-laced -with- hormones, radiation, antibiotics and pesticides fat. More sick people, more money for Big pharma. There are literally thousands of studies that contradict this "new"...finding.

Politicians are not he only victims of swift boating. The money comes from the same interests.
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afrosia Donating Member (154 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-01-07 10:16 AM
Response to Original message
102. This ain't news.
I read this quite a while back (2005 sometime) in New Scientist here in the UK. Beta-Carotene is one of the worst culprits apparently, especially for smokers, increasing the odds of developing Cancer by nearly 70% when taken in pill form (compared to taking nothing).

There are a number of reasons why I think it happens. Firstly, I think your body needs the fibre that tends to accompany these vitamins and anti-oxidants in order to process them. Secondly, I don't think we were ever intended to have all of our vitamins in one massive dose, and it's quite a shock to the body to have to process it. Thirdly, perhaps people think that by taking vitamin pills they are giving themselves carte blanche to eat whatever crap they like.

I don't know though, I'm just stabbing in the dark.

Vitamins are great provided you stick to ingesting them in their natural state. Don't resort to taking them in pill form; that's lazy.
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riverdeep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-01-07 10:23 AM
Response to Original message
105. Something left out
I'm thinking of the short attention span of the typical news consumer here; they might look at this and think antioxidants are useless or detrimental and think 'hah, just what I thought-damn granola freaks. Pass the McDonalds!'

Even if this study is repeated and follow throughs stand up (the real test of science), the antioxidants issue is important. The antioxidants found in foods are typically more complex than the ones found in extractions like vitamins and such. I recall a study on betacarotene and smoking that had to be called off because the betacarotene extract was measurably increasing the rates of lung cancer.

So, take away message, like Mom said, eat your vegatables.
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riverdeep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-01-07 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #105
106. afrosia
afrosia just posted something similar while I was typing...great minds.
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catgirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-01-07 10:27 AM
Response to Original message
107. Don't believe everything you read!
Edited on Thu Mar-01-07 10:28 AM by catgirl
First of all, too much of anything can be a bad thing. Couple of points to consider:

1. Who funded this study and who "benefitted" from it? Pharma and doctors groups
have a lot to benefit from debunking the health benefits of vitamins.

2. What constituted "lower-quality" studies and "trustworthy" ones?

3. One study group consisted of elderly nursing home residents!!!!!

4. They used "various combinations and doses". Of course Doctors know that
some vitamins in pill form shouldn't be combined with other vitamins. If they
in fact did combine non-combatible vitamins and in larger doses.....

"some involved super doses far exceeding the recommended daily amount"

then perhaps murder charges should be brought up. Vit. A will kill you in mega doses!!!

5. Many experts dismissed the findings..."only when they included and excluded certain
trials were they able to find this alleged increase in mortality, which they themselves can'y
explain", "most studies didn't reveal why...those died"...and it goes on.

6. The researchers in the study concluded that beta carotene and vitamins A & E MAY
increase mortality. What ages were the people? What did they die of? Too many factors
here. Many universities and research groups do research funded by organizations who
want either "conclusive" evidence, or "possible" evidence to furthur their agenda.
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HysteryDiagnosis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-01-07 07:32 PM
Response to Original message
122. Folic acid supplementation doesn't prevent spina bifida either. n/t
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