LESS THAN A WEEK TO LIVE

[Th1onein]

As some of you know, my "penpal," Robert Perez, is scheduled to die on Texas Death Row on March 6th. Whatever you think of the death penalty, you should realize that there are many, many accounts of executions that have been botched using lethal injections. No doctors are there to see to it that the patient is unconscious when his heart is stopped. The prestigious medial journal, The Lancet, reported that these prisoners are not given enough anesthesia to render them unconscious at the time of their execution. Recenty, Florida governor Jeb Bush called a halt to executions because a prisoner gasped for air and was mouthing words for thirty minutes after the injections. This kind of killing is torture.

Please, please write to Governor Rick Perry and ask him to stop this execution.

Office of the Governor
P.O. Box 12428
Austin, Texas 78711-2428

[NoAmericanTaliban]

1. My prayers are with you...

[aikoaiko]

2. who did he kill?

Do you know the details of the murder?

[B Calm]

3. He killed two men

Scheduled to die next is Robert "Beaver" Perez, 48, identified as a general in the Mexican Mafia prison gang. Perez faces execution March 6 for the slayings of two men during a power struggle within the gang in 1994.

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/02/28/america/NA-GEN-US-Texas-Execution.php

[AlCzervik]

7. i saw another article where the prosecutors linked him to 15 other killings

i don't know if they made the case or not.

[davsand]

129. He's been convicted of bad things. The Government shouldn't kill him.

The Death Penalty might "feel right" to people if they look emotionally at how awful some of these crimes are. The fundamental issue for me, however, is the idea that NO government that claims to be a Democracy should be in the business of killing its citizens or anyone else.

If you look at this simply from a logical discussion (minus any emotion attached to the abhorrence of murder) the logic reads:

"Killing anyone is bad, therefor we will kill you if you kill somebody."

It is fundamentally flawed.

I see this as being a lot like discussing Saddam and his regime in Iraq. He was a BAD man--he did bad things to a lot of people. The US, had no right to kill him, however.

This guy on death row was convicted of doing bad things (I'm not EVEN gonna get into a discussion of the American Criminal Justice System here--but we all realize it is flawed--right?) so now the government is gonna do an equally bad thing and kill him.

Makes no sense even IF it was done "humanely" (WTF IS a "humane" way to deprive someone of life, anyway? I have NEVER understood THAT either.)



Laura

[Renew Deal]

144. Here's some information on your local friendly murderer

http://people.smu.edu/rhalperi/updates.html

Robert Perez Scheduled For Execution


Texas Attorney General Greg Abbott offers the following information about Robert Martinez Perez, who is scheduled to be executed after 6 p.m. Tuesday, March 6, 2007.

Perez was convicted and sentenced to death for the capital murder of Robert Rivas and Jose Travieso. A summary of the evidence presented at trial follows.

FACTS OF THE CRIME

In the mid-1990's, the Mexican Mafia, or "La Eme," in San Antonio was in a state of flux. The organization’s president, Herbert Huerta, was sentenced to life in federal prison, so he named Diane "Laura" Guzman as general of the San Antonio division. Luis "Blue" Adames challenged the appointment, naming himself as the new president. The organization split in 2, with each faction determined to assassinate the alleged traitors in the other group. Huerta’s supporters included Robert Perez, Robert Herrera, and Frank Estrada.

In April 1994, Perez, Herrera and Estrada spotted Adames's car in San Antonio. They went home to arm themselves and then returned to the area, looking for Adames. They intended to kill him. Instead, they found Adames' supporters – both Jose and Jesse Travieso and Robert Rivas. A barrage of gunshots followed, and Perez's group killed Rivas and Jose Travieso, and wounded Jesse Travieso.

PROCEDURAL HISTORY

December 11, 1997 — A Bexar County grand jury indicted Robert Perez for the capital murder of Robert Rivas and Jose Travieso.

May 21, 1999 — After a change of venue to Dallas County, a jury found Perez guilty of capital murder and following a separate punishment hearing, the court assessed a sentence of death.

September 19, 2001 — Perez's conviction and death sentence were affirmed on direct appeal by the Texas Court of Criminal Appeals.

February 15, 2001 — Perez filed an application for writ of habeas corpus in the state trial court.

April 30, 2003 — The Texas Court of Criminal Appeals denied habeas relief.

October 14, 2003 — Perez filed a petition for writ of habeas corpus in a Dallas U.S. District Court.

June 24, 2005 — The federal district court denied habeas relief on all of Perez's claims.

March 23, 2006 — The 5th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals denied Perez permission to appeal and affirmed the district court’s denial of habeas relief.

June 2, 2006 — Perez sought certiorari review in the U.S. Supreme Court.

October 2, 2006 — The Supreme Court denied certiorari review.

October 19, 2006 — The trial court entered an order setting the execution date for March 6, 2007.

PRIOR CRIMINAL HISTORY

The Mexican Mafia has a violent and extensive criminal history; during the early 1990s, it virtually had a stranglehold on San Antonio. In 1996, Perez and Robert Herrera, Perez's right-hand man, controlled the gang. Just months after Travieso and Rivas were murdered, Adames was murdered. Perez not only ordered the hit, he had planned it. Additionally, Perez ordered the murders of several other people. Emilio Barrera Alejandro died as a result of 13 gunshot wounds, 11 to the head and 2 to the chest. Earnest Ybarra died as a result of 12 gunshot wounds. Adam Tenorio was killed because he disobeyed an order not to discuss the West French Place murders. He died as a result of eleven stab wounds. Robert De Los Santos was killed for the same reason as Tenorio. He died as a result of blunt force trauma and strangulation. Daniel Moreno was killed as an example to other members, having failed to perform some task he had volunteered to do. He died as a result of 2 gunshot wounds, 1 to the face and 1 to the chest. Elijilio De La Garza ("Chico") died as a result of 11 gunshot wounds, including 5 to the head. De La Garza was the one who said that Perez had ordered the killings at West French Place. Presumably, he was killed for this reason.

The West French Place murders mentioned above were, at the time, the most violent and bloody in San Antonio's history. While at least 2 former members of the Mexican Mafia disputed that Perez ordered the murders, both acknowledged that Perez had ordered the hijacking. It was thought that large amounts of both cocaine and cash would be found in the targeted apartment. Those who participated went armed with shotguns. All 5 people found in the apartment were bound with duct tape. Then, for reasons still unclear, all 5 were shot and killed. Only5 pounds of marijuana and $300 in cash were confiscated.

MISCELLANEOUS

For additional information and statistics, please go to the Texas Department of Criminal Justice website, www.tdcj.state.tx.us



(source: All American Patriots)

http://people.smu.edu/rhalperi/updates.html

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

4. With So Many More Deserving People To Choose From, Why Pick A Cold Blooded Murderer To Write To?

Honest question and I'm curious as to the reasoning. There are a ton of decent needy people in the world who would love to have correspondence. Why would you pick a two time cold blooded murder to befriend?

(You don't have to answer, as I know it's a personal question, but I was just curious)

[patrice]

9. You mis-understood the post. n/t

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

11. How So? Seemed Like A Pretty Direct Statement To Me.

"As some of you know, my "penpal," Robert Perez"

Now if that was supposed to mean something else, then my apologies. But it seemed pretty damn straightforward to me on the surface.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

60. Whoopsie, Looks Like In The End That It Was In Fact You That Misunderstood The Post. n/t

[Horse with no Name]

10. Probably because he is the least likely candidate that anyone would befriend

He is the kind Jesus would have befriended.
He needs the most help.
Letter in the mail in the morning as I am also an opponent to the death penalty.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

14. Oh The Poor Poor Cold Blooded Murderer LOL

Sorry, but my opinion is that there are far more deserving people out there who would equally desire a penpal. People who Jesus would even more readily befriend, to use your own example.

My curiosity is a personal one, as to what would motivate someone to invest the time into soothing a cold blooded murderer over someone who has not done something so selfishly cold to begin with.

[Horse with no Name]

16. Not what I said but nice try

Typical.

[sharp_stick]

18. Actually a guy like him

is exactly the type of person Jesus would befriend, at least according to the more human elements of religion.

[rateyes]

27. Well, since Jesus was a victim of capital punishment...

I bet he would have had an opinion on it. My guess is that Jesus would befriend this guy. That's what forgiveness is all about. Life in prison is a harsh enough punishment, IMHO.

[Maraya1969]

31. People do things either out of fear or out of love. And I believe that

Jesus and Buddha and all other enlighten souls would look upon him with love. Because they are not afraid and he was and is.

That is my personal belief.

[133724]

68. Love is but a song we sing & fear is the way we die....n/t

[Th1onein]

35. I write to him BECAUSE he is the lowest, in some people's opinion.

I'm not a Christian, but Jesus Christ said, "Whatsoever you do to these, the least of my little ones, you do unto me." By that, I believe that he meant that we should be kind to even the worst of human beings. We are NOT to judge the soul of another.

Someone once said that you can gauge the level of civilization in any society by how it treats it's most helpless--the elderly, the children, the poor, and the prisoners. I hope that I can be a little spot of civilization in our society. I hope that I can show kindness and love for Robert Perez, even when others won't.

BUT, even if this were not so, we should not be putting these human beings to death in a cruel and inhumane manner. This is what is going to happen to Robert Perez in six days. No matter what he did, WE are supposed to be better than that.

[wicket]

59. Amen

:hug:

[LonelyLRLiberal]

104. Your compassion is more "Christ-like" than some posters in this thread.

Bet a lot of them would claim to be "Christian" though.

[Th1onein]

38. Judge not; lest ye be judged.

n/t

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

57. Ever Since I Was A Kid And Heard That, I've Chosen To Judge Myself More Harshly Then I'll Judge

others. Therefore I can feel free to judge whoever I want.

I have no problem calling your 'friend' a cold blooded killer; which is what he is. I'm sure you mean well and no doubt have a heart of gold, but that still doesn't mean I'm going to find him to be worthy or more worthy than others of your correspondence. I can find nothing that publicly states his remorse, request for forgiveness or that he has monumentally changed as a person.

Regardless, I've always been curious as to what motivates some to correspond with cold blooded killers, and since you were one I could ask this directly to, I felt the need to inquire.

[cui bono]

75. So by that logic you can maim others as long as you maim yourself more harshly. nt

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

77. Is There A Wise Saying Of "Maim Not Lest Ye Be Maimed" That I'm Not Aware Of?

Sorry pal, but your logic's way off there. Wayyyyyyyyy off.

[cui bono]

84. Nope. It isn't. Not at all. nt

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

85. Yes. It Is. 100% Completely. LOL

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

89. Your arguments are contradicting the comment...

you have in your profile.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

90. Actually, They Aren't In Any Way Shape Or Form Bub. Nice Try Though.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

91. Sure they are.

"It's all about integrity, respect, honesty, decency, open mindedness, fairness, and genuine desire to wish good upon all. That is why I'm a liberal."

You just contradicted every single quality in that comment.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

94. Again, No They're Not. You Can Say So Till You're Blue In The Face, And They Still Wouldn't Be.

Just cause ya say so, don't make it so pal. :hi:

[cui bono]

99. How is that?

You said you can judge others since you judge yourself more harshly. Therefore, by that logic, you then could maim others as long as you maimed yourself more harshly. Logical reasoning concludes that.

What is not logical is you bringing up that no one has ever said "maim not lest you be maimed" or whatever it was. We were never talking about what someone else said, only what you said.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

101. You Need To Pay Attention.

"What is not logical is you bringing up that no one has ever said "maim not lest you be maimed" or whatever it was. We were never talking about what someone else said, only what you said."

You're actually dead wrong. The conversation was rooted in the OP telling me 'Judge not lest ye be judged', which is in fact a real saying, whereas "maim not lest ye be maimed" is not a real saying. So my initial reply was in fact talking about what someone else said and replying to it matter of factly. You are off base here and your comparison makes no logical sense. Sorry.

[cui bono]

119. Again, you are lost.

We are not talking about whether the maim thing is a saying or not. We're talking about the fact that you said you can judge others since you judge yourself harder than others. Therefore it follows that you would think that you can maim others as long as you maim yourself more harshly. It's really very simple.

Hopefully you understand now, but if not then so be it, you'll have to reread the posts to figure it out since I won't reply again. I mean you're not going to get it if I explain in one more time after you post in response to this making an argument that has nothing to do with the comment I originally made.

Good luck, a class in logic will help you in your journey.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

120. Silliest Logical Premise I've Ever Heard.

I found the most hilarious part to be how you actually were silly enough to claim that it is I that needs the class in logic. :rofl:

The second funniest part was your claim that we aren't talking about whether to maim etc was a saying or not. Not sure what conversation you've been having, but that is EXACTLY what we've been talking about, since my original reply was in response to something that IS a phrase, and therefore was within a direct contextual premise. You thought you'd try coming off cunning by thinking you can turn it around and exaggerate the premise to something far more dramatic, but to be quite honest with you it just came off as nothing more than plain silly.

If you haven't gotten it by now, then I fear trying to explain to you even further why your premise above is a logical nightmare would be nothing more than a waste of time.

But since it is you that needs some help logically, I will at least give you one last hint in spite of the risk of the effort being a waste of time: See, in order for your logic to carry any weight in reality, the concept of maiming would have to be equal in scope to the concept of judging. They wouldn't have to be exact in meaning, but they'd have to be on the same logical level of comparison. They quite simply are not by any stretch of the imagination. Sorry bub, you lose.

Goodnight!

[Sapphire Blue]

121. You lose. You have no heart.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

124. ROFLMAO!!!!! Talk About Absurd!!!!!! ROFLMAO!!!!!!

Wait, let me get this straight:

So because I was innocently curious as to why someone would choose a cold blooded murderer above others as a penpal, it means I have no heart. THAT'S HILARIOUS!!!!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

My GOD is that a misguided premise. Holy cow! LOL

[Sapphire Blue]

125. Absurd? OMC, you post nothing but nastiness when it comes to the DP.

Your words are cruel. Rather than stay out of a thread that advocates for something that you don't support, you insist on repeatedly posting hurtful comments. Yes, OMC, your words hurt. Your words hurt me when I was advocating for Stan Williams... and I'm sure you knew that. Did you follow Mr. Williams' execution closely? Did you LOL & :rofl: while he was being tortured to death?

Stanley Tookie Williams was executed on December 13, 2005. The administration of sodium thiopental began at 12:22 a.m.; the administration of pancuronium bromide began at 12:28 a.m.; and the administration of potassium chloride began at 12:32 or 12:34 a.m. (there is some discrepancy in the execution log as to when the potassium chloride was administered); yet respirations did not cease until either 12:28 a.m. or 12:34 a.m. (again there is an inconsistency in the records), either six or twelve minutes after the administration of the sodium thiopental began, either at the same time as or six minutes after the administration of pancuronium bromide began, and either four minutes before or at the same time as the administration of potassium chloride began.

http://hrw.org/reports/2006/us0406/8.htm#_Toc133042064

Now, another man is scheduled to be executed. Someone else is advocating to spare him from this barbaric torture. You ridicule her compassion in writing to him. You post comment after comment, spewing the same cruelty. Why? What do you get out of it?

Read this: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x312816#313182

and this: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x312816#313384

and this: http://hrw.org/reports/2006/us0406/index.htm

If you can still post your cruel words after reading the info from the above links, yes, OMC, you will confirm that you have no heart. I truly feel sorry for you.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

127. What Utter Bullshit. It Confirms I Have No Heart Cause I Asked An Innocent Fucking Question?

With all due respect, this has to be one of the most misguided and retarded attacks I've ever seen.

I asked an innocent fucking question in this thread. You call it spewing cruelty? Are you fucking insane?

NOWHERE did I post anything cruel, nor can you supply ANYTHING of where I posted anything cruel. So your premise is completely without merit and nothing more than a completely ridiculous attack. I am absolutely against the death penalty but that does not mean for a FUCKING SECOND that I have to treat the cold blooded murderers as if they are some innocent fucking victims. It is NOT cruel to hold that position and it does not prove one to not have a heart to say so.

Your premise is fucking pathetic.

[Sapphire Blue]

130. Look back at how you phrased your "Innocent Fucking Question".

Innocent?

If you are "absolutely against the death penalty", why can't you simply write to the governor, requesting that this execution be stopped? btw, "that does not mean for a FUCKING SECOND that" you "have to treat the 'cold blooded murderers' as if they are some innocent fucking victims". The OP wasn't asking you or anyone else to be Perez' penpal, to bring him cookies, to hire him a new attorney, or anything else. She simply asked us to write to the gov to stop the execution. Can you do that, based on your statement that you are "absolutely against the death penalty "?

Have you read the Human Rights Watch report, So Long as They Die? yet? If nothing else inspires you to call the gov to stop the execution, I hope this report will... no matter what your opinion of Perez is.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

131. The Question Was Phrased Perfectly Fine And It Is An Absolutely Legitimate Question.

There was absolutely nothing wrong with asking the question either. I NEVER said that there was anything wrong with writing the Governor and NEVER said that the DP isn't cruel in my opinion. I also NEVER put forth any premise that would make it fair to say that I was acting like someone was asking me to bring him cookies. Your entire perception of this is just amazingly flawed.

I asked a simple fucking question about something I've always been curious about, and did so in a perfectly appropriate manner. I did NOT say I wanted him to die. I did NOT critize in any way, shape or form the request to ask the Governor for a stay. I did NOT issue ANY cruel words or sentiments whatsoever.

That is a fucking FACT. I did nothing more than ask a simple question. Just because you have some amazingly twisted and inaccurate perception that I now have no heart for it, have issued cruel words, have mocked efforts, or have otherwise done horrible things, does not make it true. None of your premise is true and it is a disgraceful effort on your part to attack and smear me in such ways.

The animosity and accusations you've thrown at me is simply unwarranted, indefensible and of extremely warped perception. No matter how much you want to claim I'm some horrible person in this thread; no matter how much you want to make a claim that I said such cruel things; no matter how much you want to convince people that I have no heart, you would still have absolutely NO leg to stand on in reality to support your argument. Your arguments are empty and completely void of any logic.

I got some fuckin news for ya: Being curious as to why someone would choose to befriend a cold blooded murderer ahead of someone who isn't, is NOT a cruel curiosity and does not in ANY way put forth your strawman arguments that I want him to die, support the death penalty or don't understand some of the inhumane aspects of it. To twist such a curiosity into meaning such things is one of the greatest examples of how misguided and pathetic some premises here can be.

You are wrong here and should be ashamed of your willingness to so viciously attack and smear a person in such ways. Sorry, but I don't consider myself to be the cruel one here.

[Sapphire Blue]

132. Now that you've implied that I'm fucking insane. retarded, pathetic, warped, etc, can you please...

... write to the gov & ask him to stop this execution?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

133. No, I Haven't. I've Characterized Your False Attacks On Me As Being Such. That's What They Are.

Doesn't mean that you as a person are all of those things, as it would be a hugely ignorant declaration on my part if I were to judge you as a person based on just a few false premises you put forth on a message board (much as it was ignorant to do so to me).

But whether you appreciate the honesty of characterizations or not, the labels, attacks and interpretations you put forward about me and my comments absolutely fall into the definitions of those adjectives placed above. That's not of my doing. If you don't like your premises being characterized as such, then next time be a bit more thoughtful about what you write and take a moment to consider if such strong smears are warranted prior to posting them. But don't put it on me as blame when I choose to be bluntly honest as always as to their legitimacy.

And no, I'm choosing not to write to the Governor. Though I applaud the efforts and will of those that do, I'm of the opinion that doing such a thing is futile. I appreciate that others hold different opinions on that and find it worth a shot, but there is nothing wrong with my opinion otherwise. I do, however, still respect those for trying.

[Sapphire Blue]

138. Now you imply that I'm "ignorant". Feel better yet?

Thanks for answering my question about contact the gov; your reply doesn't surprise me.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

139. Oh Fer Cryin Out Loud Are You For Real? I Did No Such Thing. You Are Having Trouble With Context.

To explain this yet AGAIN, the premise you put forth was an ignorant one. Just because you typed an ignorant premise does not equate to you being ignorant, much like just because someone makes a mistake doing something once that does not mean they cannot to anything right. It was a reference to a singular instance of premise that you spoke, not of your all encompassing person. I'm a bit surprised that you cannot distinguish the difference here even after I already explained it.

In the end of it all, the fact remains that you and others have treated me quite unfairly via personal attack and character smears in this thread. The attacks are without merit and due cause. I did nothing more than ask an innocent and legitimate question but you and others felt the need to jump all over me for it and attack me in a nasty fashion. There is no honor nor respect in doing such things and if you are as decent of a person as you want to put forth as being, then it is my hope that you would refrain from doing such things in the future. Thanks.

[trumad]

134. You seriously need to change your profile.

"It's all about integrity, respect, honesty, decency, open mindedness, fairness, and genuine desire to wish good upon all. That is why I'm a liberal".

Because like I said in my last post--- it's the biggest pile of shit I've ever read.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

137. No I Don't. That's A Declaration Of My Core Beliefs And I Like It. Thanks For Your Concern Though.

Course, if you think for a second anything I've said here means I don't hold onto those ideals, then I fear you have a real inability to judge things accurately.

And congratulations on spelling everything right there pal!!! :rofl:

[Vanje]

111. Cold-blooded killer

In about a week, Texas Gov.Perry will be a cold-blooded killer too.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

115. Maybe So.

But since I haven't referenced him even once, I fail to see your point within the context of my posts. :hi:

[ileus]

58. In this case we don't have to judge, the jobs already complete.

[bigtree]

52. MLK I Was A Drum Major for Justice (1968)

"I'd like somebody to mention that day, that Martin Luther King, Jr., tried to give his life serving others. I'd like for somebody to say that day, that Martin Luther King, Jr., tried to love somebody. I want you to say that day, that I tried to be right on the war question. I want you to be able to say that day that I did try to feed the hungry. I want you to be able to say that day that I did try in my life to clothe those who were naked. I want you to say, on that day, that I did try, in my life, to visit those who were in prison."

"I want you to say that I tried to love and serve humanity.Yes, if you want to say that I was a drum major, say that I was a drum major for justice; say that I was a drum major for peace; I was a drum major for righteousness."

[Horse with no Name]

53. Beautiful.

:thumbsup:

[patrice]

141. Amongst everything else MLK was, we must include Poet.

Thanks for that snip!

[cui bono]

74. Yes, but Jesus wasn't judgmental. nt

[Bake]

136. Au contraire

"My temple should be a house pf prayer, but you have made it a den of thieves." Just a smidge judgmental, maybe.

"You're like a whitewashed sepulchre ... full of dead men's bones." A teensy bit judgmental?

Bake

[Hippo_Tron]

48. I don't know much about this case but here are my own personal feelings

I think that underlaying causes are ignored too often in today's debate about crime. Yes, I do believe that there is evil in the world and this guy may very well be evil. But when you compare our murder rates to the rest of the industrialized world and assume that evil is the only thing that would lead people to commit murder, then America is somehow a very evil country.

I'm not saying that underlaying causes excuse murder. If you commit murder no matter what the reason, you need to be removed from society for the rest of your life. But I do believe that some people who commit horrendous acts were never given a real chance in life and therefore they deserve sympathy or at the very least empathy. But again, I don't know very much about this particular case and maybe this guy did have a chance but is just plain scum.

[patrice]

145. I agree . . . "underlaying causes are ignored"

"not saying that underlaying causes excuse murder" - That's a very complex thought, so I think people usually reduce it to a simple "either/or" when the truth is waaaayyyy more complicated.

The "underlaying causes", our culture, the way we live, cripples certain types of people (e.g. low IQ, low threshhold for frustration, artists, the Poor, daydreamers, people with strong depressive tendencies, people with different sexual orientations, and many others). All of them start out in life with serious, serious handicaps, given the way we live. So it isn't right for people from Cupcake Land (where I live) to just say, "They chose to do what they did." Yes, they DID have a choice, but the probability of making the right choice IS much different when the hand you've been dealt doesn't contain any "winning" combinations. The chances of the truly disadvantaged making the right decision in certain situations are much different from yours and mine. The best thing we can do for them is to give them the absolute BEST, **most appropriate**, education possible, so they have a chance of over-coming their problems and choosing right. But, since we have chosen to fail in that responsibility, we are guilty of their crimes too. That's why we should not kill them.

[NNN0LHI]

5. As a lifelong death penalty opponent I will get a letter in the mail in the morning

Thank you for this post.

Don

[jarab]

49. And an echo and letter here, too, Don. nt

...O...

[noamnety]

6. Artists reflect on the death penalty

"The jury also gave an award for "Best Work by an Artist on Death Row" ($175), which went to Robert Perez, who is on Texas' death row, for his two pencil drawings, "Texas Executioner", 22x14 and "Yellow Rose for Friendship", 14x12 in."

exhibition at Gallery M2 in Houston Feb 10-18, 2007.

http://www.deathpenaltyartshow.org/

[FormerOstrich]

45. Wow....

I realize this is a little off topic but there is some powerful pieces of art at your link.

However, of all I looked at, this one certainly caught my attention.



http://www.deathpenaltyartshow.org/gallery/artist_display.php?id=24&img=1

[Bhaisahab]

46. yes. i agree. good stuff n/t

[patrice]

146. Oh my . . .

I guess that pretty much speaks for itself and it's saying so much, words can't do it.

[patrice]

8. Okay.

Doing so immediately.

[Madspirit]

12. 100% Opposed to the Death Penalty

I live in Austin. I will mail something tonight.
Lee

[Hekate]

13. If we're going to have a death penalty at all, at least it should be humane (so to speak)

For pete's sake, having someone "gasp for air for 30 minutes" IS torture!

I thought the needle was supposed to render the prisoner unconscious immediately -- IOW, I thought it was like my experience with general anesthesia, where I just blinked out like a candle between one breath and the next.

Well, Jebbie did the right thing for a change, as did the former Gov of Illinois.

Hekate

[Horse with no Name]

17. In Texas the cocktail from what I have been told is

Is an infusion of Pavulon--which is a paralytic.
It doesn't have any pain control properties, but it paralyzes every muscle, including the diaphragm which causes breathing to cease and also masks any type of pain response outwardly. But the patient can still feel everything while they remain breathing.
This is followed by straight pottasium chloride which burns like FIRE and stops the heart.
20meq of Pottasium diluted in 1000 ml of fluid burns like the devil.
I can't imagine the pain of it going in without a diluent.

[sharp_stick]

22. Texas uses the 3 drug cocktail

1) Sodium Thiopental
2) Pavulon
3) Potassium Chloride

The main question seems to be that the people doing the injecting aren't trained to tell if the pentobarb is working effectively, some people require more than others. Especially some drug addicts IIRC.

[Horse with no Name]

23. Thank you for the correction. n/t

[tavalon]

24. Is that really true?

How can I find out for sure, I wonder? Not that it would change my mind. I am against the death penalty anyway but as a nurse, I know that if it is as you say, that's barbaric beyond belief.

[Horse with no Name]

25. Another poster says that Texas uses 3-drugs

I was told it was only two--he says they also use Sodium Thiopental...but the problem is that it doesn't always work.

[tavalon]

40. Ought to be Versed

Not that the executions should happen at all.

[Horse with no Name]

64. That would be the humane way

Either Versed or Ketamine

[tavalon]

83. No to the Ketamine

I had a patient once who hallucinated that she was dying while on it. After she woke up, she still remembered it.

[Horse with no Name]

95. We used it a lot on pediatric patients

in conscious sedation and it actually always worked pretty well.
Versed doesn't work on me at all--I had a bronchoscopy and they couldn't knock me out even at max dose, but I have used it during conscious sedation on others and it worked quite well.
Drugs work differently on different people.
Ketamine is effective for most. Versed is effective for most.
Nothing works 100% for everyone.

[AlCzervik]

28. i just found this from "death row facts"

Lethal Injection Consists Of:

Sodium Thiopental (lethal dose - sedates person)

Pancuronium Bromide (muscle relaxant-collapses diaphragm and lungs)

Potassium Chloride (stops heart beat)

The offender is usually pronounced dead approximately 7 minutes after the lethal injection begins.

Cost per execution for drugs used : $86.08

http://www.tdcj.state.tx.us/stat/drowfacts.htm

[cui bono]

76. Yikes! So now I'm wondering what they give dogs when you have to put them down.

My dog was old and his liver was going and we were in emergency and he was having a seizure and they asked if I wanted them to continue to try to save him, one advised against it, and I said no, it clear it was his time to go. They gave him a shot and he was out in a minute, lying peacefully in my arms. So why can't they do that with humans?

[Vanje]

114. Fatal Plus

Thats what we use for euthanization at the vet clinic where i work.
Its active ingredient is phenlbarbitol.
Its peaceful and very fast.
Cheap enough to use on cattle(big dose

[gravity]

72. Killing humanely is an oxymoron

I am against the death penalty, but I think its silly when people argue about how someone should be killed and that it's ignoring the big picture.

I'm against the death penalty because I believe the government should take the moral high ground, and that there is a possibility of an innocent being executed. At the same time, I don't really feel bad when someone who undeniably a major threat to society get executed, and don't really care if he suffers for 30 minutes doing it since he made others suffer much worst in the past.

[Hekate]

81. Hence the term "so to speak". What the state does in our name & how matters...

It matters a lot.

The Constitution forbids "cruel and unusual punishment," a term whose meaning has changed as we have changed. At one time it was rather usual for a condemned person to be drawn and quartered, but it was undeniably cruel. Ditto being burned at the stake or having your hand cut off for stealing.

As men of the Enlightenment, the framers of the Constitution no doubt asked themselves what kind of society would perform such acts upon even the most heinous criminal. The answer to that, of course, is a society which itself is no better.

Weighing such things is what humans often do. The people who drafted and signed the Geneva Conventions recognized that there are likely to always be wars, but given that, wars should have limits. Thus far and no farther. In fact, such thinking goes back centuries -- who is and is not a combatant, who is and is not a threat, how to treat POWs and women and children, and so forth. The GC was just the latest, and now our idiot administration has broken this international treaty.

But back to the death penalty. We have it, though like war I increasingly wish we did not. But we have it. And how we as a society administer it -- whether with mercy or with cruelty -- tells us what kind of a society we are or want to be.

Hekate

[Jcrowley]

15. K&R n/t

[Canuckistanian]

19. Jeez, you've had your share of bad karma lately

Some good, but mostly bad.

Nothing ever happens to me like the emotional roller-coaster ride you've been on lately.

I hope you're keeping your sanity.

[Th1onein]

37. I think that many people experience this kind of karma, but don't talk about it.

In this case, I CHOSE to write to Robert Perez, several years ago, knowing that he might die on Death Row. I felt that I had a moral responsiblity to reach out to the lost in our society, so I did that.

He is a beaten man. You can hear his despair in his letters. He thinks of all of the things that he could have done, and didn't do, because of the choices that he made. He thinks of the children that he leaves behind. And, yes, he is remorseful, for all the good that that does him. Mostly, though, he is just without hope.

I don't think that I'm any more or less fortunate than any other person. This is just life, the valleys and the hills.

[Dorian Gray]

55. Th1onein

I'm very conflicted regarding the death penalty, but I find your writing to this man very fascinating and inspirational. I don't know if I would have the fortitude to enter into a penpal relationship with a murderer, but you are right that these people are the forgotten, and your kindness and heart shows through your correspondence with this man.

[femmedem]

20. Thank you for posting this.

And thank you for writing to Robert Perez. You've had so much grief this past year. I hope you will take care of yourself if you and others are not able to halt the execution.

Perhaps you should post this in the Texas forum? Gov. Perry will be much more likely to listen to constituents.

[Sapphire Blue]

21. A link from NCADP: Please write to Gov. Rick Perry on behalf of Robert Perez @

http://www.demaction.org/dia/organizations/ncadp/campaign.jsp?campaign_KEY=6845

[Sapphire Blue]

26. If anyone doubts that lethal injection is torture.... a description of the procedure & drugs used:

So Long as They Die
Lethal Injections in the United States

Summary

We didn’t discuss pain and suffering.
—William Henry Lloyd, Tennessee Department of Corrections lethal injection protocol committee member1

Compared to electrocution, lethal gas, or hanging, death by lethal injection appears painless and humane, perhaps because it mimics a medical procedure. More palatable to the general public, lethal injection has become the most prevalent form of execution in the United States. Thirty-seven of the thirty-eight death penalty states and the federal government have adopted it; for nineteen states, it is the only legal method of execution.

In the standard method of lethal injection used in the United States, the prisoner lies strapped to a gurney, a catheter with an intravenous line attached is inserted into his vein, and three drugs are injected into the line by executioners hidden behind a wall. The first drug is an anesthetic (sodium thiopental), followed by a paralytic agent (pancuronium bromide), and, finally, a drug that causes the heart to stop beating (potassium chloride).

Although supporters of lethal injection believe the prisoner dies painlessly, there is mounting evidence that prisoners may have experienced excruciating pain during their executions. This should not be surprising given that corrections agencies have not taken the steps necessary to ensure a painless execution. They use a sequence of drugs and a method of administration that were created with minimal expertise and little deliberation three decades ago, and that were then adopted unquestioningly by state officials with no medical or scientific background. Little has changed since then. As a result, prisoners in the United States are executed by means that the American Veterinary Medical Association regards as too cruel to use on dogs and cats.

(snip)

Each of the three drugs, in the massive dosages called for in the protocols, is sufficient by itself to cause the death of the prisoner. Within a minute after it enters the prisoner’s veins, potassium chloride will cause cardiac arrest. Without proper anesthesia, however, the drug acts as a fire moving through the veins. Potassium chloride is so painful that the American Veterinary Medical Association prohibits its use for euthanasia unless a veterinarian establishes that the animal being killed has been placed by an anesthetic agent at a deep level of unconsciousness (a “surgical plane of anesthesia” marked by non-responsiveness to noxious stimuli).

Pancuronium bromide is a neuromuscular blocking agent that paralyzes voluntary muscles, including the lungs and diaphragm. It would eventually cause asphyxiation of the prisoner. The drug, however, does not affect consciousness or the experience of pain. If the prisoner is not sufficiently anesthetized before being injected with pancuronium bromide, he will feel himself suffocating but be unable to draw a breath—a torturous experience, as anyone knows who has been trapped underwater for even a few seconds. The pancuronium bromide will conceal any agony an insufficiently anesthetized prisoner experiences because of the potassium chloride. Indeed, the only apparent purpose of the pancuronium bromide is to keep the prisoner still, saving the witnesses and execution team from observing convulsions or other body movements that might occur from the potassium chloride, and saving corrections officials from having to deal with the public relations and legal consequences of a visibly inhumane execution. At least thirty states have banned the use of neuromuscular blocking agents like pancuronium bromide in animal euthanasia because of the danger of undetected, and hence unrelieved, suffering.

Continued @ http://hrw.org/reports/2006/us0406/1.htm#_Toc133042043


Complete report: http://hrw.org/reports/2006/us0406/index.htm

AIUSA Death Penalty Abolition Program: http://www.amnestyusa.org/abolish/index.do

Campaign to End the Death Penalty: http://nodeathpenalty.org/content/index.php

Murder Victims' Families for Reconciliation: http://www.mvfr.org /

National Coalition to Abolish the Death Penalty: http://www.ncadp.org /

You Can't Pardon a Corpse: http://www.compusmart.ab.ca/deadmantalking /

[LonelyLRLiberal]

102. Holy s--t!

I am against the death penalty for many reasons, but this is information I did not know.

I had to have my cat euthanized (inoperable liver cancer); I was with him when it was done, and if I thought he suffered, I would not be able to stand it.

Just because the guy killed someone doesn't give us moral authority to kill or torture him - that is not justice, but revenge.

I think life in prison is actually a punishment worse than the death sentence.

[Sapphire Blue]

113. I wish more people were aware... and would raise hell to stop this barbaric torture.

The DP has never been about justice; it is bloodlusting revenge.

FYI - there is more info on Botched Executions downthread. Read the full report @ http://hrw.org/reports/2006/us0406/index.htm if you'd like to be more informed.

[SeattleGirl]

29. I am against the death penalty, and will contact the governor.

Thanks, Th1onein

[Jed Dilligan]

30. Is a soldier who kills in a gang war

more guilty than one who kills in a fight between Texan thugs and Arab thugs?

It's funny that the people who thirst for this guy's blood would probably also want the blood of the men he killed. Didn't he just save you a lot of time and money?

There's no humane way to kill a healthy person. I am only for the death penalty when corporate leaders and public officials betray our trust. In those cases, let them suffer as they die.

[ThomCat]

32. You are a good person to do this.

My aunt is a pen-pal to a prison inmate, but not someone on death row. I often hear long stories from her about the letters, and the requests, and the conditions he talks about, and it's often heartbreaking. It takes a lot of empathy and a strong will to be a good pen-pal to to a to someone in prison.

Thom

[Sapphire Blue]

33. Botched Executions

So Long as They Die
Lethal Injections in the United States

Botched Executions

A number of lethal injection executions have gone terribly, visibly wrong. Michael Radelet, a professor of sociology and law, has compiled a list of thirty-six “botched executions,” which he defines as executions where there is the appearance of “prolonged suffering” on the part of the condemned inmate “for twenty minutes or more.”217 Because states do not make public, maintain, or even keep records of their executions (see the “U.S. Constitutional Law” section of Chapter Seven), this list was developed from media reports. There may be other botched executions that were never reported. In addition, there is no way to know how many prisoners killed by lethal injections suffered needlessly, but invisibly, because of inadequate anesthesia masked by a neuromuscular blocking agent.

Lethal injection executions where the condemned inmate’s suffering was visible to the witnesses include:

Stephen Peter Morin, executed in Texas on March 13, 1982. Execution technicians probed Morin’s veins over and over again for forty-five minutes before they found a suitable vein to establish an intravenous line. Like many death row inmates, Morin had a history of injection drug abuse that had left his veins compromised, making them difficult to penetrate with a needle.218

Raymond Landry, executed in Texas on December 13, 1988. Two minutes after the injection of the drugs into Landry began, the catheter dislodged out of his vein and flew through the air. Officials pulled the curtain separating the witnesses from the inmate. Operating from behind the curtain, it took the execution team fourteen minutes to reinsert the catheter into the vein. Witnesses reported hearing at least one “groan” from Landry from behind the curtain. Twenty-four minutes after the intravenous drugs were injected, and forty minutes after being strapped to the execution gurney, Landry was pronounced dead. A spokesperson for the Texas Department of Criminal Justice explained afterwards, “There was something of a delay in the execution because of what officials called a ‘blowout.’ The syringe came out of the vein, and the warden ordered the team to reinsert the catheter into the vein.”219

Stephen McCoy, executed in Texas on May 24, 1989. McCoy had a violent physical reaction to the lethal injection drugs. During the execution, his chest heaved up and down as he gasped for breath, choked, and arched his back up and off the gurney. The Texas Attorney General admitted that the inmate “seemed to have a somewhat stronger reaction,” than other executed prisoners, adding “The drugs might have been administered in a heavier dose and more rapidly.”220

Charles Walker, executed in Illinois on September 12, 1990. According to Gary Sutterfield, an engineer from Missouri State Prison retained by the State of Illinois to assist in Walker’s execution, a kink in the plastic tubing going into the inmate’s arm stopped the chemicals from reaching Walker. In addition, the intravenous needle was incorrectly inserted pointing at Walker’s fingers instead of his heart. The incorrect insertion delayed the flow of drugs to Walker’s heart, prolonging the execution.221

(snip)

Eyewitness testimony about lethal injection executions in Texas also raises concerns some prisoners in Texas were breathing after the administration of the sodium thiopental should have paralyzed their lung muscles. Reverend Carroll Pickett witnessed ninety-five lethal injection executions in Texas from 1982 through 1995.244 As the condemned inmate’s spiritual advisor on the day of his execution, Pickett stayed with the inmate throughout the execution until the inmate died. Once the inmate was on the gurney, Pickett stood next to him, his right hand touching the inmate’s right knee. During some of the executions, he “saw some of the boys with their eyes open and looking at me after the thiopental came, I felt like I let down, because the execution was not proceeding exactly as I told .”245 Human Rights Watch asked Pickett if he signaled anything to the warden when he noticed a prisoner’s eyes open. He said no, that it had not been clear to him that something was wrong.246 When asked if he remembered any of the inmates breathing after the administration of the sodium thiopental, Pickett said that he “did not see any of them stop breathing after that. That just put them to sleep. But they kept breathing. All of them.”247

Pickett did not have any medical training; he had not been asked to monitor the condemned inmates breathing; and the executions were many years ago. Nevertheless, his memory of open eyes and breathing prisoners suggests there in fact may have been serious problems with the way Texas executed its prisoners.

Continued @ http://hrw.org/reports/2006/us0406/8.htm#_Toc133042064


Full Report: http://hrw.org/reports/2006/us0406/index.htm

[patrice]

34. This goes in the mail tomorrow a.m.

Dear Governor Perry:

The responsibility that we as a society claim for Justice is predicated on the assumption that we are better than the convicted. The methods by which criminals receive capital punishment are problematic, introducing into death sentences an additional measure of physical and emotional abuse. If this does not matter, then the difference between us and the guilty is only a matter of degree. Those small in-differences to pain, conserved in the system over time de-humanize personnel resulting in further de-humanization of the convicted. If a crime is so horrible that it merits the ultimate consequence, why would we allow ourselves to replicate even the smallest fraction of that crime? Put an end to the cycles of violence; please stop the execution of Robert Perez.

Sincerely,

[Straight Shooter]

36. You have written a very good letter. I hope he reads it. n/t

[patrice]

39. I've been against the Death Penalty ever since I can remember.

I totally do not understand why those who are guilty of capital crimes can't just stay in prison, be given some useful work of some sort, and stay in prison forever. Is money really the measure of life? Is that what we want? Or is it all really just about revenge?

Blessings on Th1onein for doing this work.

Hare Krsna! Hare Rama!

[Name removed]

41. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Liberal In Texas]

42. I am totally against the death penalty.

However.

This guy is scum. I won't fight for him. But I might fight for the idea of not doing this again.

We have more important causes right now to take up. Our sons and daughters are being slaughterd in Iraq and Afghanistan.

If I write Perry about anything it'll be about stopping the RW maddness that is destroying our country.

But I know he wouldn't listen any more than Bush did when Carla as executed, or anymore than if I called Kay Baily and talked to her.

No, the answer in the long run is to get these Nazis out of power.

[Zavulon]

51. I could have written this.

Word-for-word, in fact. I think the intent of the OP is extremely noble, but I'm not quite that nice. Against the death penalty? I certainly am. However, fighting for individuals who I consider to be scum is just one of those things I can't bring myself to spend time on. Kudos, however, to those who can.

[nofurylike]

43. done. thank you. eom

[EFerrari]

44. The death penalty is murder. Thank you, Th1onein.

I will write to Rick Perry. Please keep us posted.

:kick:

[Hippo_Tron]

47. I don't think the Governor in Texas can do anything about executions

I believe there's a commission that decides that.

As far as lethal injection goes, if we're going to have a practice as barbaric as the death penalty we need to stop pretending that lethal injection makes it humane. Have them get down on their knees and shoot them in the back of the head.

[Th1onein]

50. The governor can stay the execution.

Take it from a native Texan--that's how it works.

[Madspirit]

54. Nope...from another Texan

In Texas the only unilateral option the Governor has is to issue one, 30-day stay of execution. That's it. After that, it's up to the board of pardons and parole.
Lee

[Hippo_Tron]

56. I was about to say the same thing

The Texas Governor only gets to issue a temporary stay of execution. The Texas Governor is extremely weak compared to other state Governors.

[Madspirit]

61. Texas

We have the most power weak governor in the country which is kind of funny considering our macho attitude about everything.
Lee

[Hippo_Tron]

62. I sometimes joke that Bush was actually qualified for the job

But in reality, he's not even qualified to be dog catcher.

[Madspirit]

63. Think Hard..

I can't really think of any job he is qualified for, can you? <g>
Lee

[Hippo_Tron]

65. Town drunk?

[Horse with no Name]

66. Even Otis had him by 100 IQ points after his Saturday night binge

:eyes:

[Madspirit]

69. I've got it!!

Prison laundry!
Lee

[Th1onein]

87. Then let him issue it!

30 days to live is better than none. This kind of death is torture. It's wrong. We are all a party to it if we do nothing about it.

[ileus]

67. I was going to write Gov. Perry

I was going to write Gov. Perry to ask for a stop to this.....but then I saw that Jeb Bush was for halting executions.

I'm not going to be for anything Bush is for.

[Madspirit]

70. In the Bizarro Universe

That might make a lot of sense. To not do something moral because Jeb Bush also did it.

Hmmm...let's see. Jeb Bush is also married to an Hispanic woman. So I guess now, to be a good liberal, we should all be racial separatists. Jeb Bush ate waffles for breakfast, so now I guess, to be a good liberal, we have to boycott waffles.

Yup...logic...in The Bizarro Universe.
Lee

[ileus]

71. How about a state mandated reduction in his carbon footprint?

Really I'm as progressive as the next person, but I don't mind the DP being applied here.

The jeb comment was supposed to be funny, sorry if I offended anyone.

[Madspirit]

73. You didn't offend me....

I just thought you were strange. Emoticons!! It's hard to tell when someone is teasing online, especially if people don't know each other...<g>
Lee

[WI_DEM]

78. I'll e-mail the governors office, since time is running out because I oppose the death penalty

and feel he should spend his life in prison rather than die.

[Irishonly]

79. Do you have an email address?

If you don't, I will look it up as I don't think a letter would get there in time. I oppose the death penalty and I passed the litmus test many years ago. My best friend was murdered 16 years ago and I didn't want the death penalty them. I understand what people are saying about people being evil but I just don't think killing a convicted murderer erases the slate.

[brentblack]

80. Is he sorry for what he did???

Has he repented (not in a Christian sense per se) and does he feel sorry for all his crimes??

I have no problem with giving friendship to those that have commited wrongs, but they must be repentant for it to mean anything.

[Th1onein]

86. Read my post. I addressed this issue.

Of course he's repentant. Here's the page where you can email Governor Perry:

http://www.governor.state.tx.us/contact

[greenbriar]

88. is this your attempt in keeping the conversation alive?

do you go run and brag on yoru accomplishment?

[Th1onein]

92. Are you talking to me?

Whatever I have to do to keep people's attention on this, I WILL do. A man's life is at stake. However you judge that life is your business, but not one of us have the right to take it. And, not one of us would take it in torture.

I'm not BRAGGING about anything. I'm trying to get an email address for Governor Perry out there because it might be too late for him to receive snail mail.

If you don't think this thread is worth posting to, then don't post, but don't go shooting arrows at me for doing something to try to stop this death.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

96. Out Of Fairness And To Ease Your Mind, It Was Pretty Clear The Poster Was Talking To Someone Else.

[Th1onein]

103. Thanks, Operation.

Duh. I think I need to get some rest.

[greenbriar]

110. no...there are some freeps on that one site

that are disrupting and using this thread to do it

[Joe Chi Minh]

82. There seems to be an awful lot of officials in your penal system, who

get their jollies from torturing. One sick country. And, in principle, I'm in favour of capital punishment.

As a citizen of the UK, I can scarcely believe what I'm saying about the state of your country.

[Madspirit]

93. Truth...imo

Some of you are asking whether he is sorry or not and the OP states that he is. The truth is, if you think the death penalty is wrong, it doesn't really matter if this man is sorry or if he's dancing on his victim's graves.

Personally, I think the death penalty is unconscionable. You cannot defeat barbarism by committing barbaric acts. Defeating the death penalty is one of The Higher Causes, in my not-so-humble opinion.
Lee

[MedleyMisty]

97. I am totally against the death penalty.

And frankly, I don't get off on judging other people and being self-righteous.

Just wanted to say thanks to the posters in this thread who didn't knock people for having empathy that the poster didn't have themselves.

[jamc1743]

98. "torture"

I bet your "pen pal's" victim felt tortured as well.

[Madspirit]

100. Pound of Flesh

Pound of Flesh won't bring the victim back.

We have the option of being humane.
Lee

[Th1onein]

106. Free Republic is missing your posts, friend.

n/t

[midnight]

105. Thank you for standing up for Robert Perez. I don't know of this

man's crime but I do know that the death penalty is wrong. It is wrong for the reasons you have mentioned above, but for a pro-life Catholic during lent this just makes me so sad. Most pro-lifers just care about life before birth. I care about it before, and after. We are such a violent bunch aren't we.

[patrice]

147. Ah! A "Seamless Cloak Pro-Lifer" Congratulations!

You must have grown up in the same Catholic Church I did, the one in which they told us that we are responsible for all of the Robert Perezes in our lives. All of our "little" and not-so-little de-humanizing behaviors add up in the seamless web of life. All of us affect one another. And how much easier our "little" de-humanizing choices could have been otherwise compared to how much harder it is for people who start out with big disadvantages to choose not to de-humanize others, so who's more guilty?

I wish the church I remember were more out-spoken, especially 2002-2004.

Have you seen Rory Kennedy's The Ghosts of Abu Ghraib on HBO?

[judaspriestess]

107. How does Robert Perez feel?

does he feel this is his fate or his he wanting to live? If he is a general in the Mexican Mafia, is he still involved ordering other people to their deaths? just asking

[Th1onein]

117. Of course he wants to live....

But that's missing the point, too. This person is going to die a torturous death. The death penalty, as we administer it in lethal injection cases, is torture. Even Robert's victims, which were gang members just like himself, didn't die the tortured death that he will die.

I am against the death penalty (and abortion, for the same reasons), but if we have to do it, we should do it in a humane manner, at the very least (and I'm not sure that that is even possible).

[REP]

122. Abortion and Death Penalty Equivalent? Unbelievable

Absolutely revolting. What a sickening ansd sick thing to say. May you be forgiven.

[Th1onein]

128. I hope you are being sarcastic.

I am a pro-life liberal. I believe in supporting life, wherever you see it. In the womb, outside of it.

[patrice]

149. Pro-Life needs new leadership. It has a very bad reputation.

People are very un-familiar with "The Seamless Cloak".

Perhaps you could say something about how a Pro-Life Liberal views the element of choice?

[patrice]

148. Please disagree if you must. I'm sure you have serious reasons

for your differences on those issues. But, characterizing some other person's moral decision as "sickening" is not necessary and makes you appear suspect. What's more important: your ethical point? or insulting someone? If your ethical point is more important, it would help that point to refrain from insults. If the insults are more important, as they so often REALLY are on this board, why should we credit your point about the differences between abortion and capital punishment?

[Renew Deal]

143. Is it a more torturous death than that of his two victims?

Two wrongs don't make a right. I know.

[Danger Mouse]

108. I am amazed at your compassion

I don't believe in the death penalty (except for extreme cases such as unrepentent serial killers and the like...their existence is a threat to society...hey, do we know anybody like that? :P)

It's hard for me to process this.
On one hand, what he did is wrong, and taking human life is the greatest wrong there is.
On the other hand, I don't believe that means he doesn't deserves humane treatment or compassion. It's difficult, really difficult.
I'm trying to work on this issue within myself...of realizing that all who WANT forgiveness are open to God's forgiveness...
and to the best of our abilities...ours as well.
If he had killed someone close to me, however, I doubt that I would be able forgive or feel much compassion towards him.
But I do not know.
It's not me.

[Madspirit]

112. Elrond

I didn't realize it was you when I posted to "poster above". How's our Loser Lounge doing?
Lee

[Danger Mouse]

116. I think I need to check on that...

I've been very neglectful, I'm afraid...
:(

[Th1onein]

118. As angry as I've been at Bush......

And I know that I've wished him to be tried and hung for his crimes.....but that is only anger speaking, not my true wishes......I would not wish the death penalty on even one of my fellow human beings. It's like when you talk about torture--you cannot go down that slippery slope and ask when it is okay to torture. You must draw the line. I would like to think that, even if it were my own child that had been the victim of one of these people, I would have the strength to not give in to my basest desires and support the death penalty. It is wrong to take the life of another human being. No matter what.

[Madspirit]

109. Compassion

**poster above...I don't believe in the death penalty (except for extreme cases such as unrepentant serial killers and the like...their existence is a threat to society...)**

It's for these that an anti-death penalty stance counts the most. It's easy to not believe in the death penalty for the warm and fuzzy. THIS is when it matters and means something.
...and this is what life in prison is for.

My Republican mother is from whom I got my anti-death penalty stance. (Of course, my parents were odd Republicans. They also voted for Clinton because they said they just couldn't vote for stupid people...Bush...<g>)

My mom said she had always looked at this issue from the eyes of the parents of the victim and that made her be for the death penalty until one day it hit her, "what if MY child was the killer." She said of course she would plead for her child's life and with that knowledge she could ask no less for someone else's child. Her position then changed to anti-death penalty. She could not be a hypocrite.

Also, there are whole groups of victim's families AGAINST the death penalty. Google that and go visit some of their sites. It's quite touching.
Lee

[Guaranteed]

123. Tell him everyone goes to heaven. nt

[demrabble]

126. We Treat Animals Better Than This.

I have been present when two of my animal companions needed to be put down.

In both cases, the deaths were done in such a way that the animal never suffered.

And yet, we treat condemned people worse than we treat animals.

We simply think it is OK for a comdemned person to spend the last few minutes of his life suffering in excruciating pain.

We MUST put an end to such barbarity.

[Book Lover]

135. Too late to recommend - so here's my kick

Stopping the death penalty is an issue that reasonable liberals and conservatives can easily agree on. It is a perfect example of the state having too much power, and it is impossible to apply fairly in every instance. With a person's life in the balance, there is no room for error. Stop state-sanctioned killing now.

[noonwitch]

140. I'm sorry you are losing a friend.

I don't like the death penalty. I hope that your letters have given him some comfort and distraction from his inevitable fate. I also hope that he has taken responsibility for the crimes, for the sake of any family members of victims out there and for his own peace of mind so he can at least not die with unresolved issues and apologies left unsaid.

[Renew Deal]

142. I have better things to do.

But thanks for the opportunity.