I am a profoundly disturbed individual

[Jonathan50]

My whole life I have been obsessively driven to know and understand everything I possibly can. I have wasted my life in self driven autodidactic study. Now I find I know too much and the terrible knowledge I have finally reached is close to destroying me.

Yesterday, for the second time in three years, I ended up deeply hurting my family because I cannot stand to keep my knowledge from them and they think I'm insane. The last time this happened I ended up in the hospital under heavy medication for a week and then continued to be heavily medicated for about a year. After that year my medications were changed and I've gradually been coming back to what is "normal" for me, which is obsessive pursuit of knowledge. Against my better judgment and my wife's strenuous objections I have come back to the internet again and been drawn back into a powerful addiction. I have done both cocaine and crystal meth and for me neither can remotely compare to the feeling I get when hooked into the internet and am attempting to drink from the giant fire hose of information as deeply as I possibly can.

This time I think I've probably destroyed my thirty year marriage. I reduced my wife, my daughter and my three grandchildren to sobbing wrecks and made my son in law very angry with me. I have managed to patch things up with my daughter but my wife tells me she's through with me in a manner which I have never heard from her before.

I am a very powerful online debater and while I've probably lost a few debates I honestly can't recall one despite several hours of trying now. The temptation to use my debating skill ended up being too great for me to resist and I overwhelmed my family in hubris and anger when they questioned my statements which they couldn't bring themselves to believe.

I have no one besides my brother in real life to talk about the things I know and the things that interest me and my brother really feels it too depressing to talk about much so we rarely speak of serious matters. The pressure to share what I know has become overwhelming and I can't control it any longer. What triggered this outbreak on my part was a casual conversation on the way to take my daughter to the dentist. Since we were on the way to the dentist, I remembered the story of the twelve year old boy who died of a tooth infection and related the sad tale to my wife and daughter. My daughter put the entire responsibility for the boy's death on the mother, claiming "personal responsiblity" as her justification. I just couldn't keep myself from arguing with her and the conversation rapidly spiraled out of control and after a brief calm hiatus exploded all over again a few hours later when back at my daughter's house.

Our nation is headed for a fascist dictatorship with only a slight possibility of somehow averting the onslaught. Benito Mussolini said that fascism should be better called corporatism since it is the merger of the corporations and the state. Even if the Democrats win in 2008, it will only slightly slow the rush to power of the immortal and amoral corporations.

My brother is almost as driven to knowledge as I am and his specialty is ecology and the environment versus mine on general science, politics and sociology. My brother tells me, and I agree, that our beautiful blue planet is headed for ecological collapse that will destroy the majority of the human race.

We are already deep into the Holocene extinction event and the pace of extinction is only accelerating. I tremble in fear for the fate of my grandchildren. I doubt that I will live long enough to see the true horrors to come, but they will.

At any given moment our nation and indeed our planet is only a week away from food riots and the mounting chaos that will inevitably ensue. Any significant interruption of our energy supply will trigger that series of events and with America trying hard to provoke a war with Iran we very well may see that come to pass in the next few months.

I'm not looking for sympathy or advice but merely wish to unburden myself somewhere I might find a willing ear to listen.

Thanks for taking the time to read my rant of despair.

Good night and good luck,

Jonathan

[HysteryDiagnosis]

1. Like the man said to the fellow who fell into the pit band.... "It's just

a stage you're going through"..... but seriously, the earth must pass through times like this in order to reach the other side where hopefully sanity will prevail, that's my hope for it all.

[librechik]

45. just because you're paranoid doesn't mean somebody isn't out to get you

sounds like you're trying--get used to being a lonely figure though, if you bother your family with your obsessions. And isolation is not good for anyone.

Good luck--try to find a positive outlet for your rants--perhaps a novel?

You can probably engage people over here in the forums, too.

[Jeanette in FL]

2. I wish I could come up with something profound to say to you

But once you learn the truth, there is no turning back.

In many ways you have describe many people's lives. I no longer have tolerance for ignorance and I don't even pretend anymore. When members of my own family know more about NASCAR stats and the latest "news" of American Idol or Anna Nicole Smith, I want to give up on them. But, I too, have 3 grandchildren and I refuse to give up on them. I will fight this fight in their name as you must do too.

You are not alone, sadly my friend.

[Systematic Chaos]

3. All the stuff that we discuss here is very important, yes.

But your family is very much more so. I hope you will find the strength within you somehow to mend this situation and remain with your family. Even if you were looking for advice, I can't say I'd have a whole lot to offer, but know that my thoughts will be with you.

Good luck to you as well, Jonathan, and to all of us.

[MrSlayer]

4. Dude. You really have to chill.

All of what you say is true as far as the fascism and the environmental issues but you shouldn't browbeat your own fucking family into tears over it. There really isn't anything that can be done about it barring massive revolution and the chance of that is triple Powerball slim. The corporatists are in both parties and the people that would actually do something about it are ridiculed, marginalized and character assassinated. If one of those people were to actually win and institute meaningful change, they'd be killed. Perhaps you should focus a little more on enjoying your here and now with your wife and family and a little less on the doom and gloom of the future. Save your fire breathing rants for the internet and try to laugh a little more.

[ClintonTyree]

5. I feel your pain...

and live it, to an extent, myself. I know how difficult it is to know the truth about something and to unsuccessfully try to relate that to others who, for one reason or another, simply don't care. It drives me batty as well. How can people NOT want to know the truth? But yet, there they are. Millions of them, blissfully ignorant and not giving a damn.

Every once in a while I have to just step away from the computer for a few days. Take a walk. Go to a museum. Do crossword puzzles, read a book, ANYTHING but sit at my computer and smack my head against a wall of ignorance.

What works for me won't necessarily work for you. But don't allow other's stupidity to ruin your life. Be your own best friend and be GOOD to yourself. Some debates just can't be won. When you're up against a sea of absurdity you sometimes must go with the flow just to keep from capsizing.

Take care. Good luck and never, NEVER let the stupid shits in this world get you down. :)

[CJCRANE]

6. I don't think you're disturbed.

I know how you feel. I sometimes get annoyed trying to explain things to friends and family but I've realised there is a difference between verbal and written communication. I'ts much easier to calmly respond to a post on a messageboard than explain something to a family member on the hoof. It's probably better just to let them know the information is out there if they're interested but otherwise not to push these topics onto them.

But the reality is that most of us won't be involved in a terror attack or sent off to war etc, so it's really your empathy that's in overdrive, your feeling for other people. Is it possible for you to get involved in a local pressure group to take up your time and energy...

Or the other alternative which I've tried is to go cold turkey, disconnect your internet connection and go find a different hobby. However that hasn't worked for me and I'm thinking of setting up my own blog! (But a blog that deals with lots of things not just the heavy issues).

The truth will come out but it will take time, look how far W has fallen in popularity in the last couple of years. In the meantime enjoy searching for knowledge but don't try too hard to foist it on others.

[Why Syzygy]

7. You're hurting yourself!

Is that going to help anyone?

I agree, you need to take it easy on your family and loved ones. What you are describing borders on fundy-ism, and we KNOW how destructive that is. Don't we?

Lots of us understand your frustration. Idealism coming up against stark, heinous disregard for all things holy is very painful! If you want, stand on a busy street corner with a sign, "the world is ending". You'll have plenty of company. If, on the other hand, you want to live this one life in a loving manner, which might perchance actually make a difference, then do that! It's your choice. I don't buy that you are incapable of acting in a loving manner.

There are some people I just do not discuss DU or political matters with. I've read information which I've NEVER shared with anyone. I'm not the loosest peach on the tree. I do believe some 'information' can be racked up to conspiracy guesses. However, there was my former roommate. I told him lots of things, which he did not believe. He has since come back and told me I was "Right" about the *war*. I was against it from the first mention of any hostilities. So. Sometimes the information does sink deeper into the bedrock. Let is seep. Don't ruin every chance you have to allow others their own information journeys.

I hope your wife gives you another chance. You mention medication. And "the last time this happened"... Is that where you're headed with this?

[GeorgeGist]

8. May I suggest ...

you learn to listen to, understand, and follow your soul.

[JNelson6563]

9. I think you misdiagnose your problem

I do not see your quest for knowledge as the problem. It is what you do with it where the problems come in.

What you need is balance. Perhaps joining a group where you take some action would be helpful. I too used to grow frustrated with the things I knew to be true. Then I joined my local Dems and I've never looked back. All that energy I used to waste in frustration goes to productive efforts.

You need an outlet. Conversation will never suffice for one who feels as deeply as you do. Get behind an effort that will produce tangible results and I promise you will begin to feel more empowered instead of frustrated in futility.

Best of luck on your journey.

Julie

[BoneDaddy]

10. You are trapped in the mind realm

Human beings exist on four levels of being, the physical, emotional, mental and spiritual/abstract/existential. The realm of the mind has been depicted as one of constant ideological battles and of giants/titans fighting and battling forever...neverending. You are stuck there my freind. Each realm has an enemy and an ally. The enemy of the mind realm is "clarity" and the ally is "wisdom". You are way too attached to being "right" and "clear". So much so it dwarfs everything you touch, affecting every aspect of your life.

Get out of your head, into your body, into your emotions and find meaning and purpose in your life beyond being "right". Then and only then will you be balanced.

[Jim Warren]

58. Hey.......wait just a darn minute.......

You pulling a fast one here with that rascally math?
Four levels hah, and then sneek in six things.
:evilgrin:

[Straight Shooter]

81. So true, so true.

Living your entire life in your mind, neglecting the spirit and the heart, does no one any good. This is obsession fueled by idealism.

OP, if you're still scanning these posts, shutoff the computer and find a "light" book to read. The weight of the world is on your shoulders, only you can remove it.

[lvx35]

94. 10 of Swords.

I remembered learning about tarot cards when I heard what you said: pentacles=body, cups=emotions, swords=mind, wands=spirit one book I read suggested that we journey through each suit. The last of swords, the ten, is about total ruin, the ultimate product of the path of the mind. But the good news is that leads to the next journey...

[BoneDaddy]

96. What I was describing comes from Tibetan Buddhist

psychological cosmology. Really really good stuff and probably not much different from the archetypal aspects of Tarot.

[lvx35]

97. Oh, fascinating!

I love it when different geographically isolated traditions describe the same thing. It implies there's something to it.

[BoneDaddy]

98. Yep

the evolution of consciousness that happens on a global level throughout time.

[BoneDaddy]

95. Sorry, I didn't make it clear

Four realms and each realm has an "enemy" and "ally". Tibetan Buddhist psychological cosmology. Good stuff.

[northzax]

11. step away from the computer

seriously. unplug. you are not in the obsessive pursuit of knowledge, you are in the obsessive pursuit of destroying yourself. turn off the fucking machine and work on your relationships with other people. and for once, don't talk to them, LISTEN to them. Seriously, this is a chimera, they are real. you can't save the world, but you can save your relationships, which are all that matter in this world. ranting and raving does no one any good, even if you are telling the truth.

relax. unplug. get back to life. remember one thing: if you go away, your computer won't miss you. your wife will.

[jollyreaper2112]

89. agreed

agreed

[Vinca]

12. I have days when I wish I was profoundly stupid - I bet you do, too.

It would be nice not to care about the important things and focus on Britney's bald head, but once you're trapped there's no going back. Maybe your situation would be helped by writing. It can be very therapeutic as I'm sure you know since you came here to vent.

[Ian David]

13. You're no good to anyone if you're broken. Not to us, yourself, or your family,

I strongly suggest taking some time off to rest and spend with yourself and your family.

Find something stupid, pointless, and entertaining to do, either alone or with others.

Put yourself on the injured reserve list before you end up taking an early retirement.

And when you feel better, there will still be work to be done and arguments to be won.

[mmonk]

14. Unload your burden. It frees the soul.

Then accept the peace of having done so. Then look at all the beautiful things in life such as a songbird in your backyard or as spring approaches, enjoy the sounds of nature in a solitude place. Watch or listen to humor and music as much as possible. The world's burden is not yours to carry alone.

[markbark]

15. Are you pulling our leg?

This sounds like really good satire, but I admit my sarcasm detection circuits aren't as good as they used to be.
The sentence in your opening paragraph stating "I have wasted my life in self driven autodidactic study." is what set them off.
Autodidactal activity is NEVER wasted time. (I must point out however, that using the modifiers "self driven" while describing autodidactic study is needlessly redundant. {grin})

--MAB

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

16. I caught that tone, as well. Tough call. n/t

MKJ

[theboss]

17. You don't need us...you need a therapist

I think it's safe to say that you are experiencing some classic obsessive-compulsive symptons along with some sort of god complex. I feel bad for you, but the problem is not the world or your family or the Internet. The problem is most likely the make-up of your brain. Get some help...for yourself and your family.

[Marie26]

18. Turn off the computer.

Cold turkey. Do it. Spend time with your family doing silly, unprofound things - see a movie, go to the park, take a vacation. Make a vow that you won't talk politics w/them if it makes you, and them, upset. There are more important things than being right, or knowing it all. The world continues w/all its problems regardless of whether you obsess on it or not. Take a break & connect with the people you care about. And honestly, if you're not able to do that, maybe you should see a counselor for help. There's no reason to continue on a course that causes you & your family pain.

[lonestarnot]

19. Go in your closet and pray.

[BlackVelvet04]

20. Sounds to me like you need some help......

"The pressure to share what I know has become overwhelming and I can't control it any longer."

Nobody likes being preached at and it sounds like your family has had a belly full of your "knowledge."

Dude, get some counseling.

[davekriss]

21. Suggestion

You sound like a smart guy, internalize this:

Practically speaking, a life that is vowed to simplicity, appropriate boldness, good humor, gratitude, unstinting work and play, and lots of walking brings us close to the actual existing world and its wholeness.
-- Gary Snyder

I remember when I was a kid, after testing revealed a high IQ and before carting me off to school for gifted children, my guidance counselor warned me about two things.

First, he said I needed to do something about the erratic hours I kept because the habit would follow me into my future career (I only occasionally showed up to school and was almost always late). So true...

Second, he warned me that being bright isn't without its downside. I'd see things that others can't, I'd sense injustice, inequality, and that I could grow impatient and bitter with the people around me. Also true. However, having internalized Gary's words above, I get by.

Heraclitus said phanti rei, "everything flows". Swim against it and we drown; swim with it and we are carried far in life. :)

[Cetacea]

22. "You think too much for your own good"

Ever had that one laid on you? Remember, critical thinking is always discouraged in the New "Reality". I wish I could disagree with you. My only suggestion is that you study some Zen (Taoism in particular0. Read anything by the late Alan Watts. (actually, check him out via http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlHxz6OkT9M.
Check out the one entitiled "Time" as well.

The film entitled "Man and Nature" is especially appropriate and poi giant considering it was done in 1971). Watts didn't have much hope for the planet 36 years ago but his outlook on it is good. Hang in there.

[aceman2373]

23. quick.......get back on the meds

[Stanchetalarooni]

24. You are not alone.

There may not be many of us but I would tend to think that we do have a unique perch here at DU from which to view the happenings of our world. In as close to real time as never before in history.
Increasing knowledge does lead to increased pain and we do suffer here on the net. I wouldn't say we are gluttons for pain as we are sometimes accused but rather I believe (from my search on the net) that we are wired to seek out and confirm information for the sake of doing so.
We have always been and always will be at the precipice of consciousness and awareness. It is our role in the human genome. We have no recourse. Just like the others. It is our genetic "job". Be proud of your genetic heritage.

[Annces]

25. I don't think your body can function when you overload it

too much. It is like an alcoholic who destroys their liver. You need to have balance and refreshment, and clearing of the mind to function and grow.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

26. "Chop wood and carry water." As the Buddhists say. You're not in charge.

Do what you can and leave the results to fate.

Obsessing about politics is a bit like obsessing about the weather or the likelihood of a meteorite landing in your bathroom.

[Radio_Lady]

62. Agreed. I've found solace in the expression, "You're not the General of everything."

Yes, it's difficult to feel powerless. However, if that's our fate, so be it.

I try diligently to have some power over some things that occur. Right now, I've lost something in the house -- useful, but replacable -- and I'm trying to get my feelings of perfectionism under control.

[Cetacea]

27. Alan Watts: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlHxz6OkT9M

In case you missed my previous post. Read anything by him. Start by watching some of his short "lecture" films on youtube. Keep in mind that he was a brilliant thinker and shared your concerns in 1971.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlHxz6OkT9M

[JackRiddler]

30. Thank you!

Just started listening to the available lectures by Watts. Such a discovery. Where's your prior post?

[Cetacea]

31. 'welcome! It's above, entitled "You think too much"

Also, check out this Watts lecture on "Time", given aboard his houseboat.
Keep in mind that he isn't using cue cards.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTaklXTSDPE

[JackRiddler]

28. Thank you.

I could have written a very similar post. I know where you come from, brother.

[Dorian Gray]

29. Jonathan

You are ruining your life and your family with your obsessions. Obviously, as you've admitted in the post, you've had problems with addiction, and that's horribly difficult for both you and your family to deal with. My sympathies and empathy goes to all of you. This quest for information isn't a bad thing on the face of it, but it seems to be destroying your personal life, so it is as destructive as anything else. You've shared information with your family, but then argued over subjective points of view regarding that information with your daughter. What's the point of that, other than the need to be right?

I think that getting some help from a therapist is the only thing you can do. Obviously venting online is an option, but since that fuels your obsession for information, and that obsession in hurting your real life, then it's up to you to make the choice to address these concerns.

Best of luck with your path. It'll be difficult, but you can do it.

[Cetacea]

33. the Vietnam war split families

Why should Jonathan back down on his convictions and his perception of the Truth? One way to drive someone crazy is too keep insisting that the sky is black when that person knows it's blue. I don't want to see people getting into fights with their families and friends, but let's face it: everything Jonathan is perceiving is true.
Wasn't former Bill Frist trying to get some legislation passed that made election fraud concerns and Bushco policy concerns a form of mental illness?!
We used to call people like Jonathan "Thinkers."

[Dorian Gray]

35. It's fine to perceive the truth

It's wrong to berate your family or goad them into arguments.

I think family is more important than politics. Maybe I'm one of few. But, goading your children into arguments will only breed resentment and hatred. It's not a healthy way to live.

He can believe anything he wants to beleive. It's what he does with those beliefs that make the man he is. Therapy would be used for his interactions with family rather than his truths.

He's stated that he's had prior addictions. That is dangerous territory. He needs continued therapy for his addictive personality, otherwise he will lose all that's important to him.

[Cetacea]

41. I know of someone who received ect for becoming vegan

Luckily, he got much of his memory back and was able to become an anti-ect attorney.
Jonathan stated that his addiction is to the internet and it's storehouse of Knowledge. It's not his fault that his family can't handle the truth. I do agree he needs to simmer down though and perhaps turn his thirst for knowledge to more positive subjects.

[Marie26]

37. Fundies and fanatics are sure

they know "The Truth" too, and are also very eager to make everyone else think the way they do. At a certain point, you just have to live and let live. The OP has stated that his behavior has driven his family to tears, maybe ended his marriage - that's not healthy.

[Cetacea]

42. If his family is cool about millions dying due to greed

and can't handle the truth, maybe he needs to find some place more appropiate to vent. He's no crazier than Mike Malloy.

[Marie26]

49. Find some place more appropiate to vent

Agreed.

[Jonathan50]

54. No, I've never had a problem with substance addiction.

I put down meth and cocaine without a second thought. I enjoy cannabis but have stopped without any problem except my mind races like a NASCAR engine at full throttle in neutral.

I rarely drink alcohol and don't really like it all that much when I do.

I used practically every recreational drug known to man back in my misspent youth and the only ones I continued to use were those which I enjoyed and none of those did I have any trouble stopping when I decided to do so.

My problem is not uncommon to people of my psychological type, I'm an INTP on the MBTI and below you can find the most complete profile of an INTP that I've ever seen, it describes me almost perfectly.

http://www.intp.org/intprofile.html

[Lilith Velkor]

99. That explains why I feel the same

:hi: fellow INTP!

[donsu]

32. I too crave information and at times I'm looked at as a crazy

old woman for the truths I tell.


in the blink of an eye this world will turn upside down.

[Ron Green]

34. Part of it is your own fault, and part of it is the fault of Bush

and others in his cabal, throughout whose reign I've detected a national fear, depression and mental illness.

You can follow some of the excellent suggestions in this thread to take care of your own part, and work hard to put good Democrats in office to help take care of the other part.

[Jonathan50]

36. Thanks to everyone who took the time to reply

You make many good points that I have mostly thought of in my own self reflection.

I haven't been burdening my family, my last breakdown was because of my insistence that there was more to 9/11/2001 than is being publically divulged. Bush's connections to the bin Laden family and the myriad other unanswered questions such as the stock transactions immediately prior to and after 9/11 have me convinced that there was some sort of conspiracy involved beyond the official story.

Since then I've kept my thoughts to myself and not mentioned them to anyone beyond the online community and my brother, who agrees with me but does not wish to discuss it.

Biting my lip and keeping everything to myself has simply become impossible for me any longer. Even if I unplug the computer and walk away, what I know is still burning in my head. I used to self medicate with cannabis but that has become an option closed to me since my wife failed a drug test at work and is now under close watch there and can no longer partake. Our relationship is such that if she can't partake, neither can I.

Never once in my life has my brain stopped running unless I was asleep or wasted, it is just the nature of my being and I can no more stop it than I can stop breathing for more than a minute or two at a time.

As for going back on the heavier meds, I've been there and I think I would rather cease to exist than become a zombie again. Prayer likewise is closed to me since I'm about as strong an atheist as Richard Dawkins and to pray to a deity in which I do not believe would be hypocritical and I despise hypocrisy.

For those of you who have seen the YouTube video of the US troops leading a bunch of Iraqi children in a chant of "Fuck Iraq" you will know how disturbing that video is to people of conscience, if you listen closely to the audio, there is a troop in the background right at the end of the video muttering "this is so wrong". http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOUFsCiU7oM

I emailed that to my daughter, who is a loving, stay at home mother and heard nothing back from her for a week or so. I casually asked her one day what she thought of the video and was utterly shocked when she said "Oh thanks dad, that was really funny". It had never even entered my mind that any loving parent could possibly find that video funny and I acted out of sheer surprise and basically let her know that I was really disappointed in her.

At this juncture I really don't know what to do, I feel my life is over and I'm not sure I want to exist without my family.

Thanks again to everyone who replied to me, I appreciate your concern.

Jonathan

[CJCRANE]

40. Further to my previous post

I've also been like your daughter. 10 years ago I used to have many arguments with my father who thought I was totally apathetic - and I was - I had no interest in politics. People can change and/or have the potential to change so never write anyone off.

As for 9/11 the truth will come out gradually in the next few years - it's a big world out there and it takes time for information to gain a tipping point. The shocking thing is that America is no different to any other country - the elites have always been manipulating us, it's just that Bush-Cheney have done it on such a vast scale and the internet makes it possible for more to find out.

Stick around - Bush-Cheney will get their comeuppance one day - even if it's just that they become social pariahs.

We're just at the beginning of this world-wide-web phenomenon - give it a few more years, more and more people will wake up.

[Bronyraurus]

56. If you were such a mighty debater

and accumulator of knowledge, you'd probably know that Mussolini never said that about fascism (http://www.publiceye.org/fascist/corporatism.html). But I welcome your riposte, o master!

This post is bogus, and if it's not, its author badly needs a trip to the dandelion fields.

[Jonathan50]

60. Thanks for telling me that.

From your link:

A Google(tm) search on January 12, 2005 turned up some 5,000 hits on the following quote:

How is one to find the particular website which debunks the claim among the five thousand hits on Google?

You could try out the fourteen signs of fascism here:

http://www.rense.com/general37/char.htm

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism - Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights - Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause - The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

4. Supremacy of the Military - Even when there are widespread
domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

5. Rampant Sexism - The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Divorce, abortion and homosexuality are suppressed and the state is represented as the ultimate guardian of the family institution.

6. Controlled Mass Media - Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.

7. Obsession with National Security - Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.

8. Religion and Government are Intertwined - Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.

9. Corporate Power is Protected - The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.

10. Labor Power is Suppressed - Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.

11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts - Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts and letters is openly attacked.

12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment - Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.

13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption - Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.

14. Fraudulent Elections - Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.

By my count we are fourteen for fourteen, your take may differ though.

[Bronyraurus]

67. I'll go through these

because I've got a thing about the whole "America is fascist" thing. I don't believe that the American government is fascist, and I intend to explain why. I shouldn't have to point this out, but this isn't a defense of the Bush administration. It's a refutation of ignorance and stupidity.

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism - Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

The government has not made constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Name them if you disagree. Flags are seen everywhere, but they're put there by private citizens. The government flags you see have always been there.

2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights - Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.

You can argue this point, but I think that it's significant to Americans that this isn't happening to Americans, but to foreign fighters. One or two exceptions does not a trend make. Also, note the lack of summary executions and assassinations.

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause - The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

The only foe that could fall into this category is "terrorists." Like the ones who took down the twin towers, bombed the Madrid trains, and the London underground and buses. Otherwise, the government has been very careful, regardless of the members' private feelings, to not blame any racial, ethnic, or religious minority, or liberals, communists, or socialists, etc...

4. Supremacy of the Military - Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

I don't think anyone can argue against this point.

5. Rampant Sexism - The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Divorce, abortion and homosexuality are suppressed and the state is represented as the ultimate guardian of the family institution.

This is entirely untrue. There are very powerful women in the government right now, and don't give me that "window-dressing" shit. Tell that to Rice, Hughes, Meyers, etc... Gender roles have not been made "more rigid." And divorce, abortion, and homosexuality have all INCREASED since this government took power.

6. Controlled Mass Media - Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.

The media is neither directly nor indirectly controlled by the government, unless you include the ban on curse words on broadcast networks. Censorship is nowhere to be seen.

7. Obsession with National Security - Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.

This one is unarguable.

8. Religion and Government are Intertwined - Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.

This one is arguable because of the power of the religious right, but there hasn't been any more religious rhetoric coming out of this government than there was in the last government.

9. Corporate Power is Protected - The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.

Conceded.

10. Labor Power is Suppressed - Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.

Labor power has been neither "eliminated entirely" nor "severely suppressed." Show me otherwise.

11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts - Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts and letters is openly attacked.

The government has not promoted any hostility to higher education or academia. Professors and academics have been neither censored nor arrested. Free expression remains inviolable.

12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment - Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.

There is no national police force, save the FBI, which does not have "almost limitless power to enforce laws."

13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption - Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.

Conceded.

14. Fraudulent Elections - Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.

This is arguable, and I would argue against it if I thought it would do any good. But the fact remains that national elections are generally run by county governments, Democrats and Republicans, in each state. I do not believe that there is national coordination. Needless to say, there have been no assassinations.

By my count, that's 4 out of 14. Please respond with your thoughts.

[Egalitarian]

72. I encourage you to start a new post in GD-"America is not Fasist-

a refutation of ignorance and stupidity". Much knowledge to be spread.

[Bronyraurus]

75. Thanks, dude

I did just that.

[Jonathan50]

73. My reply

The government has not made constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Name them if you disagree. Flags are seen everywhere, but they're put there by private citizens. The government flags you see have always been there.

Where in the description does it say that government puts all the flags and symbols out?


You can argue this point, but I think that it's significant to Americans that this isn't happening to Americans, but to foreign fighters. One or two exceptions does not a trend make. Also, note the lack of summary executions and assassinations.

The incarceration rate in the USA is six times that of Canada on a per capita basis. America has five percent of the world's population and twenty five percent of the world's prisoners.


The only foe that could fall into this category is "terrorists." Like the ones who took down the twin towers, bombed the Madrid trains, and the London underground and buses. Otherwise, the government has been very careful, regardless of the members' private feelings, to not blame any racial, ethnic, or religious minority, or liberals, communists, or socialists, etc...

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,982270,00.html

""I tell people don't kill all the liberals, leave enough around so we can have two on every campus; living fossils, so we will never forget what these people stood for." --Rush Limbaugh

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=24842

"President Bush expressed personal concern about Limbaugh's condition with senior staff.

"The president noted Rush Limbaugh is a national treasure," one senior White House staffer told the Drudge Report. "


4. Supremacy of the Military - Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

I don't think anyone can argue against this point.

This is entirely untrue. There are very powerful women in the government right now, and don't give me that "window-dressing" shit. Tell that to Rice, Hughes, Meyers, etc... Gender roles have not been made "more rigid." And divorce, abortion, and homosexuality have all INCREASED since this government took power.

Roe v Wade is in increasing danger of being overturned all it will take is one more conservative SCOTUS judge, "defense of marriage" initiatives and laws are common and directly aimed at homosexuals, attacks on homosexuals are still common and possibly even increasing. Moves to limit divorce are under way.

The media is neither directly nor indirectly controlled by the government, unless you include the ban on curse words on broadcast networks. Censorship is nowhere to be seen.

The censorship is indirect but there. Several of the large conglomerates are in danger of being forced to divest some subsidiaries by the FCC, which is controlled by political appointees. They fear to strongly oppose the administration since then the FCC may decide to move on divestiture. Not to mention that control over virtually all media in the US is handled by just a few major corporations all of which are conservatively biased.

7. Obsession with National Security - Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.

This one is unarguable.

This one is arguable because of the power of the religious right, but there hasn't been any more religious rhetoric coming out of this government than there was in the last government.

What country have you been living in for the last six years? Ever heard of the "faith based initiatives" program?

9. Corporate Power is Protected - The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.

Conceded.

Labor power has been neither "eliminated entirely" nor "severely suppressed." Show me otherwise.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2006-01-21-union-members_x.htm

"WASHINGTON (AP) — Long-declining union membership leveled off last year at 12.5% of the workforce, the Labor Department said Friday in a report labor leaders called encouraging.

Union membership was about a third of the workforce a half-century ago, and was one in five, 20%, in 1983, when the Labor Department started keeping such data."

I'll further point out that the nation's largest employer, Wal Mart, is virulently anti union.


The government has not promoted any hostility to higher education or academia. Professors and academics have been neither censored nor arrested. Free expression remains inviolable.

http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2007/02/19/ariz

"$500 Fines for Political Profs

To date, 2007 hasn’t seen much legislative progress for measures inspired by the “Academic Bill of Rights,” the brainchild of David Horowitz that he says promotes diversity of thought on campuses, but that many faculty leaders believe is designed to squelch them. Bills have been introduced in nine states, according to Free Exchange on Campus, which opposes them. But with one exception, those bills haven’t been moving.
Related stories

The exception is Arizona, where a Senate committee on Thursday approved a bill that would go much further than the Academic Bill of Rights, and which has infuriated faculty and student leaders. The bill, whose chief sponsor is the Republican majority leader in the Senate, would ban professors at public colleges and universities, while working, from:"

The movement is nascent but there.

There is no national police force, save the FBI, which does not have "almost limitless power to enforce laws."

Black bag jobs, warrantless wiretapping, no knock raids, elimination of Habeus Corpus, repeal of Posse Comitatus, random body searches, asset forfeiture without conviction, militarization of the police. And I'll point out again that the USA has an incarceration rate six times that of Canada which is culturally and demographically not all that different from us.

13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption - Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.

Conceded.

This is arguable, and I would argue against it if I thought it would do any good. But the fact remains that national elections are generally run by county governments, Democrats and Republicans, in each state. I do not believe that there is national coordination. Needless to say, there have been no assassinations.

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20010205/bugliosi

None Dare Call it Treason by Vincent Bugliosi

"In the December 12 ruling by the US Supreme Court handing the election to George Bush, the Court committed the unpardonable sin of being a knowing surrogate for the Republican Party instead of being an impartial arbiter of the law. If you doubt this, try to imagine Al Gore's and George Bush's roles being reversed and ask yourself if you can conceive of Justice Antonin Scalia and his four conservative brethren issuing an emergency order on December 9 stopping the counting of ballots (at a time when Gore's lead had shrunk to 154 votes) on the grounds that if it continued, Gore could suffer "irreparable harm," and then subsequently, on December 12, bequeathing the election to Gore on equal protection grounds. If you can, then I suppose you can also imagine seeing a man jumping away from his own shadow, Frenchmen no longer drinking wine."

By my count, that's 4 out of 14. Please respond with your thoughts.

[Bronyraurus]

83. My reply to yours

"The incarceration rate in the USA is six times that of Canada on a per capita basis. America has five percent of the world's population and twenty five percent of the world's prisoners."

What does this have to do with human rights? (My eyes bugged out when I read your statistic, is that true? Link?) I think that the jails are swollen because of drug criminals. Most of them shouldn't be there, but dealing drugs or possessing them is not a fundamental human right.

Your Limbaugh point proves mine. Limbaugh is not the government, and the only tie you could provide was Bush hoping that Limbaugh felt better. It's weak, my man!

"Roe v Wade is in increasing danger of being overturned all it will take is one more conservative SCOTUS judge, "defense of marriage" initiatives and laws are common and directly aimed at homosexuals, attacks on homosexuals are still common and possibly even increasing. Moves to limit divorce are under way."

If the government was single-mindedly pursuing an overturn of Roe v. Wade, why was Harriet Myers nominated? DOMA was not passed by this government, and the other laws are all state laws. The government does not attack homosexuals and, to my knowledge, does not encourage it. Show me where divorce limits are under way.

"The censorship is indirect but there. Several of the large conglomerates are in danger of being forced to divest some subsidiaries by the FCC, which is controlled by political appointees. They fear to strongly oppose the administration since then the FCC may decide to move on divestiture. Not to mention that control over virtually all media in the US is handled by just a few major corporations all of which are conservatively biased."

I don't know anything about this divestiture. And I think that the internet has developed as an effective counterpoint to the MSM. Even so, does the government control these corporations?

"What country have you been living in for the last six years? Ever heard of the "faith based initiatives" program?"

How exactly is this evidence of the government using "the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion"? What is the most common religion identified in the plan to fund "faith-based initiatives?"

"WASHINGTON (AP) — Long-declining union membership leveled off last year at 12.5% of the workforce, the Labor Department said Friday in a report labor leaders called encouraging.

Union membership was about a third of the workforce a half-century ago, and was one in five, 20%, in 1983, when the Labor Department started keeping such data."

I'll further point out that the nation's largest employer, Wal Mart, is virulently anti union."

Is the government responsible for declining union membership? If so, how?

"http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2007/02/19/ariz"

That is damned stupid, but I would have to imagine that it will fail, and it is not supported by the federal government. That's an argument, if it passes, for Arizona being fascist.

"Black bag jobs, warrantless wiretapping, no knock raids, elimination of Habeus Corpus, repeal of Posse Comitatus, random body searches, asset forfeiture without conviction, militarization of the police. And I'll point out again that the USA has an incarceration rate six times that of Canada which is culturally and demographically not all that different from us."

Are the first 6 items listed being used against Americans? I am in total agreement about asset forfeiture and I supported congressional attempts to end this practice, which got shut down by the efforts of the (admittedly fascist-leaning) police departments and associations. What bullshit. How are the police being militarized?


Thanks for the response.

[Why Syzygy]

88. Is the government responsible for declining union membership? If so, how?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x265970

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/02/28/ap/politics/mainD8NJ0C2O0.shtml
(AP) President Bush would veto legislation championed by Democrats and labor groups that would make it easier to organize unions by eliminating employer rights to demand secret-ballot elections, the White House said Wednesday.
~~~
The Employee Free Choice Act, also known as the card check bill, is the top legislative goal of labor groups eager to reassert themselves with the emergence of the Democratic majority.

The current system is broken because employers can coerce and intimidate workers into rejecting unionization, AFL-CIO President John Sweeney said in a phone interview this week. The House bill, he said, is "the most important improvement in labor law in many decades."

But the White House, in a statement, said the measure "would strip workers of the fundamental democratic right to a supervised private ballot election." Substituting a card check mechanism under which unions would get bargaining rights as soon as a majority of workers at a plant sign approval cards, "would turn back the clock 60 years and return us to a failed system."

[Jonathan50]

93. My reply

"What does this have to do with human rights? (My eyes bugged out when I read your statistic, is that true? Link?) I think that the jails are swollen because of drug criminals. Most of them shouldn't be there, but dealing drugs or possessing them is not a fundamental human right."

Controlling what one does with one's own body is indeed a human right.

http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/other/sp/abb.htm

· With 1.3 million Americans behind bars, the U.S. rate of incarceration is 519 per 100,000, second in the world among the 52 nations covered in this survey. The U.S. rate has increased by 22 percent since 1989, and is generally 5-8 times the rate of most industrialized nations.

http://www.norml.org/index.cfm?Group_ID=7040

Marijuana Arrests For Year 2005 -- 786,545 Tops Record High... Pot Smokers Arrested In America At A Rate Of One Every 40 Seconds

Cannabis is demonstrably far safer than is alcohol and the only reason it is and remains legal is due to pure politics. I can provide massive evidence that this is so if you should doubt my word.

"Your Limbaugh point proves mine. Limbaugh is not the government, and the only tie you could provide was Bush hoping that Limbaugh felt better. It's weak, my man!"

That's not what Bush said, he called Limbaugh "a national treasure" thus implicitly endorsing Limbaugh's comments about eliminating liberals.

"If the government was single-mindedly pursuing an overturn of Roe v. Wade, why was Harriet Myers nominated? DOMA was not passed by this government, and the other laws are all state laws. The government does not attack homosexuals and, to my knowledge, does not encourage it. Show me where divorce limits are under way."

Where in the original list I posted did it say that it was entirely the government which does all the acts listed? The general atmosphere of intolerance is what the government fosters and that leads to attacks against those whom the government refuses to fully protect.

"I don't know anything about this divestiture. And I think that the internet has developed as an effective counterpoint to the MSM. Even so, does the government control these corporations?"

It's a two way street, the government controls the corporations through a form of blackmail regarding divestiture and the corporations control the government through massive campaign donations to politicians who need the money in order to buy advertising time on those same media corporations.

"How exactly is this evidence of the government using "the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion"? What is the most common religion identified in the plan to fund "faith-based initiatives?"

You don't think bribing churches with the promise of government money is using religion as a means of manipulating public opinion?

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/article317805.ece

In the programmeElusive Peace: Israel and the Arabs, which starts on Monday, the former Palestinian foreign minister Nabil Shaath says Mr Bush told him and Mahmoud Abbas, former prime minister and now Palestinian President: "I'm driven with a mission from God. God would tell me, 'George, go and fight those terrorists in Afghanistan.' And I did, and then God would tell me, 'George go and end the tyranny in Iraq,' and I did."


"Is the government responsible for declining union membership? If so, how?"

That has already been adequately answered in another thread.

"http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2007/02/19/ariz "

"That is damned stupid, but I would have to imagine that it will fail, and it is not supported by the federal government. That's an argument, if it passes, for Arizona being fascist."

Just listen to conservative rhetoric against basically anyone that they perceive as being an intellectual. No, it's not the government, but it's their proxies in the media.


"Are the first 6 items listed being used against Americans? I am in total agreement about asset forfeiture and I supported congressional attempts to end this practice, which got shut down by the efforts of the (admittedly fascist-leaning) police departments and associations. What bullshit. How are the police being militarized?"

Yes the first six items are indeed being used against Americans.

Frankly, if I have to demonstrate that the police are being militarized then you haven't been paying any attention to what's going on around you for the last thirty years or so.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathryn_Johnston

Kathryn Johnston (c. 1918 - November 21, 2006) was an 88-year-old Atlanta, Georgia woman shot by three undercover police in her home on Neal Street in northwest Atlanta on November 21, 2006 where she had lived for 17 years.<1> She opened fire on the officers after they pried off burglar bars and broke down her door using a no knock warrant. None of the officers received life-threatening injuries, but Johnston was killed by the officers.

According to WSB-TV in Atlanta, Detective Junnier has told the FBI that some of the information used to obtain the search warrant on Johnston's home was false.<7>

On February 7, 2007, it was announced that Georgia's district attorney will seek felony murder and burglary indictments against the three agents involved.<8> The Rev. Markel Hutchins, acting as spokesman for Johnston's family, said her family members were "stunned and disappointed" by the announcement of the indictments because they believe it will disrupt a larger federal investigation of civil rights violations by the Atlanta Police Department


Thanks for the response.

You're welcome.

[otherlander]

59. The white clown.

The people like to laugh at the white clown on the three-walled television screen. But not you or I. And I know that because I'm depressed I need therapy but there's a fundamental problem that is this: Therapists seem to act as if their job is to calm people's urgency. That's entirely wrong. The urgency must be embraced. In the words of Krishnamurti, it is no measure of health to be well-adjusted to a profoundly sick society.

A year ago I said that the CIA was kidnapping people and had secret jails. I was called paranoid. Several months later the president admitted that this had been happening. Yesterday I said that weed was only illegal because it let people be jailed and used as prison labor. Everybody laughed.

While the normal people here watch their white clowns, it's the freaks living on the railroad tracks who urgently ask, "Must man leap into the flames of the funeral pyre of his own construction time and again? Is man so like the phoenix?" Because 451 never was about an authoritarian government. They even had elections in the story. It was only about an indifferent society.

[Egalitarian]

76. I hardly ever come across a reference to Krishnamurti.

I was obsessed/confused with his thinking/writing for many years. Ah, what a different world we would have if more people would read and comprehend "Think on These Things". I credit Krishnamurti with many of my most cherished internal changes.

[otherlander]

100. To follow any system leads to corruption.

He was right about that. Religious, political, ideological, philosophical, unless you can look at every situation and ask yourself what you feel would be for the greater good, then you are at risk of accepting atrocities in the name of your system of choice. The left will give you Mao, the right will give you Hitler, Christianity produces the Spanish Inquisition, and atheism hands you Stalin.

Me, I'm an atheist, but one of the biggest inspirations for my way of thinking is Dom Helder Camara. Everything he said about justice is true, the only difference being that he saw justice as a God-given right.

[appal_jack]

66. when all else fails, lower your standards...

The above phrase sounds a little snarky perhaps, but it's one of the mini-philosophies that keeps me sane. I share your obsessions for information and truth, but I have found that many others like their info in small, easily-digested bites. At one time, this frustrated me, especially when I would try to info-dump the big picture onto them and they would refuse, or would not get what I was saying.

So now, I set my goal posts a litttle closer. I shoot for smaller info-deliveries to my friends and neighbors, and I find that they oft-times appreciate what I have to say. Recent mini-victories have occurred during a conversation with my church-y Faux-watching neighbors about how the corporate news channels might have a vested interest in keeping us scared and glued to our TV's, and another with a young mother about the dangers of synth-crap fast food. In each case, I just let a snippet of fact drop in the discussion, with no attachment as to whether they would agreee or not. And in each instance, I could watch them absorb what I said, and see their gears turning inside their heads. In neither case did I try to puush further into subjects of corporate dominance, fascism, 9/11 conspiracies, or any such matters, even though I too spend an awfully large amount of time reading about this stuff. I figure that when my friends and neighbors are ready to tackle those subjects, they will know I'm game.

And like many other wise folks have said up-thread, I try and take time to enjoy less cerebral matters too: gardening, mountain biking, hiking, and flirting with soft-spoken, slender women are all activities that get me out of my head for a while...

I hope you find some better balance Jonathan. The information you carry may very well be a treasure trove, but don't let it weigh you down.

-app

[ajh]

90. You failed to give the entire story here...

I believe I responded differently than what you posted above. You also failed to state that I thought it was a voice over. My own children were running around in the background, and I didn't pay very close attention to the video. I'm guessing that's really neither here nor there, though. The root of this problem is much deeper.

I can be resourceful, when needed. I waded through countless posts, and looked to the time frame to which I thought you would have posted. I figured you wanted me to read it, so I found it. I made time to seek out what YOU are interested in, at the moment. You've said it yourself, it varies regularly.

You have gotten some wonderful advice, and many of these people have touched my heart with the way they responded to you. If you would take the advice of the majority, we'd be in a much better place.

I don't have a problem with what you believe - and I've told you that I agree with *most* of what you say. I will not stand for disrespect, and I avoid speaking with you about these topics because - GOD FORBID - I might have a difference of opinion. You may say my opinion is not relevant because it is not supported by facts - I have supporting facts, and they are often just as valid as the facts you may find. I will not stand to be belittled, especially in my own home.

I, like you, find it easier to put things in writing. My tone seems less harsh, when reading it from a computer screen, or on a piece of paper. I hate that I had to come on to a website to attempt to get my point across, but I see others have made it for me. I've tried like hell the past three years to be everything you could ever hope to have in a child. I've seen you in worse places than most children ever see a parent in. I've overcome those challenges, I've stepped up to the plate, and I have attempted to help in every way I know how. Now it's your turn. I'm handing the burden over to you. When you want my help, you know how to find me.

I really dislike putting this out for the world to see, but since you felt comfortable to post it here, I followed suit. Maybe *this* can be your wake up call. If you want things to change, change them. You know how - just do it. I'm no longer your enabler. I will help you, but only when you prove you want it. Actions speak much more loudly than words. ;)

I love you, and I always will. I really hope you see that. I also hope you see that you raised a daughter that will stand up for herself, her family and loved ones. I hope you see that I am compassionate, caring and loving. I hope you see that I try my best to be everything you wanted me to be. But I digress, I am human, and make mistakes. Not very often, and never twice. Hence why I avoid talking about politics with you like I would avoid a plague.

I would like to make one more point, before ending this post. Your "last meltdown" did not come across to your loved ones as a political stance. We saw something completely different than "politics" when your episode was so raw. You were in that hospital for a reason, and a very good one at that. If you are still bitter, than I am truly sorry. I am sorry that you can't see that we did what we had to do to help, not only you, but EVERYONE around you.

Like I said, I hope that I can come across a little more clearly with my message to you. I can't seem to make my point in person, or on the phone. I really, sincerely hope this will work. I love you, dad, but mom and I are no longer your emotional punching bag. We have feelings, too. We don't want you to cease to exist, but we certainly don't want history to repeat itself.

I have sat here for the better part of an hour, debating if I should post this, or simply delete it and leave this thread be. I guess you see what my gut told me to do.

[hunter]

38. Meds and therapy, right now!

I've instructed my family to hunt me down with a tranquilizer gun, shoot a dart in my ass, tie me up, and drag me to the hospital if I ever go off.

My guardian angel has always taken the two-by-four-to-the-head approach to such things -- he's a mean bastard. He'll let me run naked right over the edge of the abyss, but then I'll get snagged on some jagged tree branch sticking out; by my hair, by my balls, by my fingernails, or some other equally painful way. Then I have to crawl back up over the edge, all bloody and bruised.

But I'm done playing the game of how low can I go. I don't ever want to experience whatever is is next on that hit parade of horrors. I'd rather take my meds, talk on a regular schedule with my doctor and therapist (whether or not I think I need to -- I'm a very poor judge of that) and pursue happiness.

Whenever someone close to me says I'm acting crazy, I've learned by very bitter experience that they are probably right.

[Jonathan50]

53. Our doctor has already told us he will not help

We had to change doctors in the last year due to an insurance change. The last doctor was superb, this one is a prick. Looking for a doctor now but not having much success.

I've been in therapy and group therapy, they really don't do all that much. With one guy I was paying sixty dollars an hour out of my own pocket, all we did was essentially argue politics. Trying to describe the problem entails sharing the knowledge I have at which point everyone blanks out and simply ignores anything I have to say.

Erasmus said that in the kingdom of the blind the one eyed man is king.

Through bitter experience I have found that Erasmus was a flaming optimist and that a better description would be that in the kingdom of the blind the one eyed man is thought mad.

[hunter]

55. If a potentially curable cancer was eating away at you, you'd find a good doc...

..however long it took, however many times you had to try.

This is like that.

Maybe I'm lucky, but I also know I don't put up with nonsense from anyone, especially people who are professionals.

If your obsession is politics, the solution to your problem is not to argue politics, as seems to have happened in your group. Maybe look for another therapist, or tell that one.

(Ah well, I get too close to offering medical advice here, but so be it.)

Keep looking! Make it a full time job until you find someone who can help.

[Jonathan50]

68. My options are fairly limited

I live in a quasi rural area of one of the reddest of the red states, there isn't really much help available at all and my political position is pure poison to most of the folks around here, including most of the therapists.

Due to previous medical problems, mostly with my wife we are tens of thousands of dollars in debt and struggling to get by. There really isn't any money left over for therapy or experimenting with drugs or whatever. I've looked into every avenue that I can find and have found no one that can help.

If I were to get a cancer, if my insurance would not pay for it, I would simply expect to die. I've had a pretty good life so far and if it were to end tomorrow I would have few regrets.

[Pavulon]

71. Depending on your condition

ssdi will cover you. It is slow and painful but every state has lawyers that will take that on contingency. My wife is doc and there are options for medical care in almost every state, even red ones have some good hospitals.

There are radical options you can look at like divorce (on paper) that may qualify you for Medicare. I WOULD visit your counties social services department, if they suck, try the state agencies, then call the inpatient centers business office to see how to work your insurance or the system.

Depression and bi-polar kill people. They are serious and ruin lives. They ARE treatable.

You post has a tone of desperation, you can call and express this, treatment can NOT be refused.

I wish you luck.

If you are feeling unstable CALL and you can get a 72 hour voluntary stay. It could save your life.

[aikoaiko]

39. You don't have to be smart to be an asshole.

Truthfully, you're problem is not unique. Everybody struggles with being right and having other agree with you and maintaining relationships with family.

Check your ego and if you can't then get to a psychiatrist/psychologist who will help you.

[Porcupine]

43. You're fishing on thin line with peoples emotions.

When you start yanking you risk losing them entirely. When you describe the debate with your family that is probably what happened.

Winning a debate is not everything, winning with your wife is frequently not even winning. You might consider planting ideas with your wife and waiting to see if they fruit. The internet gives us the luxury of almost instant responses to our wildest ideas; this is not to be expected with family.

Treat your wife as if she was the most valuable thing in the world and your only connection to her was a spiders thread. You cannot yank on the line or fail to let it run when she moves away. To do so is to lose her. I suspect you have aspergers syndrome and late in life you will not find another person willing to learn to love you. Go apologize and tread lightly. Tell her you want to learn to talk to her on HER terms.

The planet has to take care of itself. It is not your responsibility or mine to control the ecosystem. We get to fish on thin lines with our fellow humans only but it would be best to find attractive bait.

[applegrove]

44. Stay away from trouble. There are lots of medications that will mildly

affect you and give you a decent "baseline" for your mood. Your family is the last place you should be attacking. Family is everything. Take the meds. And be a good man. And stop it with an addiction to knowledge. You need balance in your life. "Family time" is never wasted.

[Cetacea]

46. keep in mind that some meds will make you more agitated

Prozac, Paxil, and some of the other contemporary Anti-depressants all carry this risk. If it were me, I would go with something tried and true that has a calming affect and does not debilitate you. Family IS extremely important and so is your perception that what you are experience is indeed accurate and real. You just need to get stiller and yell at the appropriate people.
Your family did not create the Katrina crime, for instance.

[Flying Dream Blues]

48. I agree...you don't have to be a zombie to be on meds...find a good

doctor who won't quit until you're feeling much better witbout the terrible side effects. Therapy can help you deal with your feelings more constructively, as well as address the compulsions. I know you must feel terrible, but if you lose your family, things will be worse for you, I fear. I wish you well and hope you can rebuild things with your family.

Take care.
:hug:

[Madspirit]

47. k&r n/t

[dfgrbac]

50. I feel your pain, and share it.

Since retiring and having more time to research real news, I have come to exactly the same conclusions as you. All American citizens should be outraged at the way things are going. The fact that they are not shows the depth of the sleep they have been induced into by the mass media.

Anyone who has not yet seen America: Freedom to Fascism should see it as soon as possible! At least look at the 15 minute trailer for it. This film is one of many telling the real truth, but one of the most important.

My approach for dealing with my discoveries has been to promote democracy for America (not Howard Dean's version) as much as possible. I have supported Mike Gravel's National Initiative for Democracy for years and I support him for President in 2008. He is the only candidate who is showing us the way out of this fascist quagmire.

[LeftHander]

51. Loving kindness is missing....

The human world is deeply flawed. Mostly because of negative images and thinking that overpower our sense of self-worth.

We are left with a feeling of chronic despair.

When I feel that world is caving in on me what I found works is to reach out with as much love as you can, to push away darkness. You have to fight your battle from new side on a much smaller scale.

I can't tell you what to do to make life more bearable. I think you know in your heart that you have to let go and allow the power of love, humility and kindness to take hold in your life.

It is not about faith, or god. If is about simple understanding that if you project love and kindness outwards you WILL change the world around you.

When we all do this then the circles of influence we create overlap and begin to break apart the forces that keep the world spinning out of control.

You can't repair the world until you repair yourself. We can't effect meaningful change as long we harbor anger and hate and project that outward to those around us. The people that have been drawing this nation down, that we talk about so much on this site are selfish and fearful. When we interrupt their negative influence with our circles of love. When we breakdown their power, when millions do this the world will become one again.

Love. IS...all you need...let it flow.

Start with your family. Hold them. Apologize. Cry with them. Then accept what good is in the world, the simple beauty we overlook everyday and let it inspire you. Reach out and pull someone close to up from despair. Give them the beautiful person that you are.

Turn off the TV. Avoid heated debate. Stay informed but learn the ways of loving kindness in addition to global politics.

Smile. At first it will not feel right. That feeling is the world you are leaving telling you that it will struggle to hold on to you because it draws it's power from your fear, anger and sorrow. Some call it evil. I call it simply perception. You can choose to see only the ugly. Or your can choose to see the beauty in small things and begin to effect positive change where you can. Where you can effect change is that space that is five feet around your body. Win that space with love and kindness and it will spread.

Be wonderful and kind. It is a power we all share but rarely use.

<3

[dave123williams]

52. You're cursed - the good news is that it's an old and widely understood curse.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casandra

"When Cassandra foresees the destruction of Troy (she warns the Trojans about the Trojan Horse, the death of Agamemnon, and her own demise), she is unable to do anything to forestall these events. Her family believes she is mad, and, according to some versions, keep her locked up because of this. In versions where she is incarcerated, this is typically portrayed as driving her truly insane, although in versions where she is not incarcerated, she is typically portrayed as remaining simply misunderstood."

The good news is that there's a lot of us like you. Get informed, and you can become dimly prescient. Sometimes, though, it's good to take a day away from the deluge of info online. As one of your respondents so deftly put it, 'dude, you gotta chill'.

[spooked]

57. You are not disturbed...You are probably an INTJ

Perfectionist, Hard on Yourself, Analytical, etc.

http://www.teamtechnology.co.uk/mb-types/intj.htm
http://www.personalitypage.com/INTJ_per.html

Take the Test here:

http://www.humanmetrics.com/cgi-win/JTypes1.htm


The World need all TYPES!

[Jonathan50]

61. Actually a very strong INTP as I posted just a little while ago

And it does feel like a curse.

[Radio_Lady]

63. Jonathan50, I will be 68 years old in May. I've made a lot of mistakes in my life.

There are many roads not taken. Some people who were important to me died last year and I could not do anything about it. My children are busy with their own pursuits and that's the way it should be, I guess.

I wish I had some power over this political situation. My husband and I talk about it incessantly until sometimes I want to throw up.

But I really don't have that power, beyond speaking to sympathetic friends. My husband is a precinct committee person and he went to rallies and passed out literature. I've marched, had guests on my radio show who were anti-war (now and also when the Vietnam War was raging).

Those Republicans? I say, "You got what you wanted!" -- even to family members who are pro-Bush -- and let it go at that.

I wish you some peace. Can you listen to some calming music or watch a gentle video or movie or go to a Tai-chi or yoga class (beginners only!). I have a soothing mantra which is something like, "Let go, let God" even if I don't believe in a personal God. Also, massage is wonderful for that strung-out feeling. You can also google "self massage" and you come up with a list of things you can do for yourself.

I wish I could give you a big hug in person!

[Egalitarian]

64. Thank you for sharing.

As you've read, many thousands, perhaps millions of people feel more or less the feelings that you do. But, many of us are not exposed to the knowledge of how to relate to these feelings. I would like to suggest that your desire for knowledge is infact driven by a deep rooted desire to be helpful. Probably you realize this.

I sense is that you have not yet learned how to integrate this information in a manner that can then be shared with others when appropriate; and that allows them to truly hear and understand what you are trying to communicate.

Language can get confusing here, but from my personal experience, it is vital for me to maintain a level of groundedness, or centeredness. Some might call this place detachment. I like to see it as the realization that my thoughts are not the whole of me, but merely one aspect. I have learned to watch my thoughts, without any need to act upon them. This I find most helpful, for then I am free from them more or less. Rather than reacting to my thoughts, I am now able to respond, which to me is a huge qualitative difference both within myself and in my relationship with others.

I highly recommend a book titled, "How to be a Help Instead of a Nuisance", by Karen Kissel Wegela (spelling may be off, since I loaned the book to a friend). I'm tempted to go into details about the book, but from reading your posts, I am confident that within this book lies knowledge which you will find helpful and which can help you discover that you do have the potential of living a more fulfilled, effective life that in no way ignores the vast knowledge you have acquired. I challenge you and your desire for knowledge. Read this book. Digest it. Understand it. If you do, I believe you will find another way of knowing that will transform you life.

Cheers,
Egalitarian

[RC Quake]

65. I'm sorry, but were you at my dinner table last night?

I'm seriously not trying to make light of your peril, but your story is so eerily familiar. My spouse & I are both avid political junkies. The only problem is that I know when to backoff and find a little levity in life. Not that there is a lot of that around.

Last night, our dinner table was overcast with every doom & gloom scenario known to man. We had both had bad days at work and really needed to laugh, not continue to make matters worse. Last night was the first night that it hit me. I really don't enjoy being around my spouse anymore. The constant debating with people and having to rehash every news story that misstates or misrepresents the facts has made this person someone that I just don't want to be around. The obsession has become overwhelming.

Please, for your spouse...your daughters...try to find some enjoyment in life. Take an occassional break from the frustrations. You deserve it. They deserve it.

This is coming from someone that can relate painfully to your situation...a view from the other side so to speak.

Good luck.

[Pavulon]

69. correlation engine

the mind is a massive correlation engine. It takes in data, ranks it, and produces a reaction. That is normal.

Causation and correlation are not linked.

I would suggest books on chaos theory. There in no way to predict the future, no one can. People can guess and proffer ideas. In reality the events unfolding every second change the "future". Bifurcating equations show this pattern.

Basically I am not saying to adopt a fuck it attitude but to accept that there things that you can directly influence.

Your post touches on psychological treatment. from my experience that is an ongoing thing. It is good to see different doctors to get a diagnosis confirmed.

[Jonathan50]

74. History does not repeat itself

But it does rhyme. -Mark Twain

Actually, any experienced parent can tell you that it is indeed possible to predict the future, albeit only limitedly.

If your your young child has a large glass of drink on the edge of the table it is a foregone conclusion that he will knock it onto the floor within seconds.

There are plenty of other examples that I can give but I think you might get the point.

[Pavulon]

77. I agree

but on a grand scale that falls under the controllable. You can directly control decisions on seeking care.

You are welcome to PM me if you need assistance finding help in your area. Hospitals are required to treat you. Not trying to insult you if I misread your tone.

There are resources available to you, no matter what your financial condition.

[Jonathan50]

80. As I already said elsewhere in the thread.

The intense brain activity is a characteristic of the INTP psychological type.

Also, when I try to describe my problems it invariably becomes necessary to relate my "delusions" at which point the therapist immediately stops listening to me. Particularly so here, where my political position is pure poison to a very large percentage of the population.

[Pavulon]

82. I suggest

you find a medical doctor you are comfortable with. Talk therapy has its place, as does medical care. They are different, but should go together.

I wish you the best.

[Blue_Tires]

70. even though i know where you are coming from

you need to drop everything you are doing now and try to reconcile your family/relatives....because even though life's a bitch, it's even more of a bitch with no one to share it with....

[zippy890]

78. too much brain activity

chemical imbalance in your nervous system.
a good pharmacologist - psychiatrist specializing in medications changed
my life for the better in profound ways. by persistence, a long and difficult trial and error with the meds, hospitalizations, but most of all a committed desire to be a better person to my family, I am alive and living a better life, and my family is still with me.

don't fool yourself that you know more than the doctors, I made that mistake and paid for it in further suffering and causing pain to those around me.

there are a lot of quack shrinks out there unfortunately. But keep looking, use your internet skills to find the best ones near you.

nothing is more important than your health, and your family - good luck in finding the right treatment

[Chantico]

79. You are not alone.

But DU is not friendly. IYKWIM.

[ecstatic]

84. Balance is necessary in all things

Nobody wants to hear someone rant and rave all the time, no matter how much we might agree with you. Sometimes we just want to have fun and relax and take a break from worrying about everything that's wrong with the world.

[Jonathan50]

87. If you read closely you'll see that I've been keeping my mouth shut

My family will tolerate *zero* of my ideas. My wife basically agrees with me but doesn't want to hear about it at all.

I asked my daughter tonight that if she foresaw some great disaster coming to hurt her family, would she warn them? I don't know, was the answer. She is one of the most opinionated people I know and is very forceful in putting forth her ideas and she doesn't know if she would warn her family of impending doom?

[ajh]

91. Yep.

We tolerate *zero* of your ideas because you will listen to exactly *zero* of ours. Two way street here.

Also, I told you it depended on the situation of impending doom. If I thought for one second, my family was in danger, I would do what I had to do to protect them. But if I would seem pushy, "excited", or even angry when I was explaining said danger, I would most likely keep it to myself. It will do no good to push things on them when there is no education, on their part, behind it.

[ChiciB1]

85. I Swore Off DU For A While Because Of ALL The Infighting Going On...

but your post just hit the nail on the head for me. While I don't have any disconnect with my family members to the extent you do, they DO feel I'm obsessed far too much of the time about what is going on.

I was unable to sleep last night, not a wink... because I can't find the button on me to turn it off! I think I know how you feel, and also just how helpless you feel. I have never done meth or cocaine, but have smoked the whacky more than some. Doing that tends to make me think even deeper thoughts and I wonder WHY I think them.

Just thought I would chime in to tell you that you are not alone. I have been diagnosed with OCD, Obsessive Compulsive Disorder and have had my share of meds too.... HATE THEM WITH A PASSION and ly DO NOT use them with the regularity prescribed. I don't like being a ZOMBIE, but then "reality" can be insanity in and of itself!

I check in here now only to see if the "cat-fights" are still raging, and they are... but I can sympathize with you and wish you much luck! I am fortunate that my daughter and son understand how I feel, however my husband says it only brings me down. Can't say he isn't correct, but I can't stay away.

So again, from the pit of this existence, I DO UNDERSTAND!

[Rex]

86. You have reached a level and have only two options.

Either work on a huge amount of mental control or seek professional help. Just remember, you are in charge. No one else. Only you can force the world to do what you want. Knowledge is power, you just have to learn how to use it.

Think, who is in control? Your mind or your body? Defy impulsive thoughts. Control your brain. It really isn't that hard if you 'know' as much as you say.

[PhilipShore]

92. World news can be depressing at times -- and disturbing...

I am not a shrink -- but perhaps -- it would be better to not discuss news or politics that could be depressing and disturbing. Perhaps, also turn off the TV, the radio, and stop reading newspapers. Move out of the city and live on a farm in the country -- much easier on the mind etc.