So I turn on CNN right now and the first thing I hear is

[cboy4]

Loe Dobbs saying "Here's the result of our poll:

DO you believe National Guard troops deployed to protect our southern border should be authorized to arrest and apprehend illegal aliens and drug smugglers?"

First of all, he loves saying "aliens" because he knows it makes people like myself angry.

He can very easily say "illegal immigrants," which is less insulting to Mexican citizens.

(YES, I think the guard should have arrest powers. Fine.)

But here's the deal:

This man is every bit as obsessed with Mexicans as the right wing fundamentalist Christian conservatives are with all things gay.

He just has to have issues with people with brown skin, otherwise he would be screaming for a fence along the Canadian border.

After all, it was along the Canadian border where we stopped the Millennium bomber....the person who wanted to blow up Los Angeles International Airport in my state.

That scares me a lot more than illegal immigrants picking grapes in the one thousand degree California sun.

He is like a stalker with this issue, which is why I never watch his show anymore....even though I like his attacks on Bush.

[cynatnite]

1. He's like the 'illegal alien' czar...

That's why I never watch him. He's a one issue guy with no nuance and little concern about anything else. I also think he's racist.

[Rosemary2205]

2. Does Lou even cover anything else anymore?

Have not watched him for more than a year because it just seemed like one day he decided to talk about nothing other than secure borders.

[OnceUponTimeOnTheNet]

3. Well, What were the poll results?

just asking..

edit to add~
Do you believe National Guard troops deployed to protect our southern border should be authorized to arrest and apprehend illegal aliens and drug smugglers?

Yes 97% 2770 votes

No 3% 74 votes
Total: 2844 votes

~that is not a heck of alot of responders for a poll.

[Kurovski]

5. Self-edit

You already looked it up.

[Flying Dream Blues]

4. I do see your point and agree on Lou Dobbs, but

I don't think *co sees a fence along the Canadian border as a high priority, unless it's to keep we the people HERE.

And there are lots of ways for bombers to get in or out, all that airport bs is just a public sedative to keep us flying.

[proud2BlibKansan]

6. He pisses me off so bad I can't watch him anymore

They are NOT aliens, they are human beings.

I refer to them as undocumented.

[oldtimecanuk]

7. With all due respect....

As a Canadian citizen who crosses the US border on a regular basis I believe that Lou Dobbs is right on the money! I am a visting Alien in their country, and thats just a fact (Customs and Immigration terminology not mine) and I have been subjected to some very serious questioning and even shake downs.
My big problem is, why do the Mexicans feel that they are any different when crossing the border than the Canadians? I have a place in the US and I am allowed to stay in the country for 6 months less a day, and God help me if border agents catch me here for any additional time. The real possibility exists that I could wind up in Juantaunomo bay (spelling I know)

ww

[cboy4]

15. Well are you coming to this country because you're desperate for

work to support your family because you can only make $3 an hour in Canada, or are you coming here for other purposes?

I tend not to judge the psyche of desperate people....you know, like the San Francisco man who was crucified by many for driving down the wrong road in Oregon and later sacrificed his life out of desperation, trying to help his family.

Lots of Mexicans come here out of desperation. I might do the same thing if I was in that position.

If you want to emphasize securing the borders to keep terrorists and drug dealers out....that's one thing.

But Mr. Dobbs just can't stand the fact that undocumented workers are doing work he damn well knows he, or other Americans won't do.

[oldtimecanuk]

22. No I am not.. and yes you do have a point ... but....

IMHO it is the people of the said country that allows their rights to be degraded to that degree... (I know, that is easy for me to say) but look at what happened in some of the former Soviet Union Countries that the Govt. tried to depress...... It's up to the people to rise up and put these shit heads in their places, after all they are elected by the people for the people and they are just public servants...... In Canada, with our system I honestly do not believe that we would ever see a Govt. try to go against the people... Stephen Harper has a minority Govt. and the Govt. would be taken down extremely fast with a non confidence vote if he tried to go against the wishes of the Canadian people.

ww

[cboy4]

26. The bottom line is if you or I were desperate to support our families,

we would do whatever, within reason, to do just that.

And I would imagine it's a lot easier said than done rising up as you suggest they should do in their own country. Otherwise, it would have probably happened by now.

After all, it is a life-threatening decision to sneak into the United States (I'm sure you've heard about all of the people who die walking from the border to Tucson. Seemingly everybody runs out of water.)

Lou Dobbs sees these people as filthy illegal aliens who are stealing away apple picking jobs and it's ridiculous.

[oldtimecanuk]

29. I am certainly not moking the Mexican People...

However, Lou Dobbs is not the problem, this Administration and the Mexican Govt. are. You can frame it anyway you like, but that is the bottom line.... The people in both countries need to mass and make their disatisfaction known, not semi mass, but mass in big numbers and say... hey, you work for us, now do our biding..... This Dictatorship shit comes from lack of balls.... Yep, some are going to get killed, and wounded, but that is the bottom line... and I am sure that most people know that.

ww

[cboy4]

31. YES, of course the Mexican Govt. is the problem! I don't disagree....

What I'm saying is Dobbs breathlessly frames everything he says around the "illegal aliens."

He absolutely INSISTS on using the word "alien," which shows me he blames the desperate people sneaking into the country MORE THAN their government which doesn't do jack shit taking care of them, or for that matter, patrol the Mexican side of the border.

[Critters2]

35. Actually, the "work Americans won't do" meme is bullshit

AFter the packinghouse raids in December, they had no problem replacing the deported workers with citizens and legal aliens. They did raise wages a bit to do it, but the workers were available.
Industries hire illegal immigrants to keep wages low, and CEO's salaries high. Suppressing wges helps no one--not workers already here, not desperate immigrants who come from elsewhere, not the USA, not Mexico. What we ought to be doing is working toward improvement of the Mexican economy THERE, not importing its poverty here.

And we ought to stop repeating Repug campaign slogans.

[cboy4]

37. Excuse me but it's not bullshit. Americans are not interested in

doing the disgusting work illegal Mexican immigrants do.

If they were, you'd see them doing it, wouldn't you?

Who cleans motel rooms, and washes dishes and mows lawns and picks strawberries for shit wages?

I don't know where you live, but here in California, it's not white people you see crawling around in the fields or riding five in a pick-up towing landscaping equipment.

Come on now.

[Critters2]

38. Shit wages is the key here.

Americans and legal immigrants would do this work for a living wage. But employers don't have to pay a living wage as long as people like you advocate importing the very poor to do the work for less than the work is worth. Pay a decent wage, and plenty of people would clean hotel rooms and kill cattle. You know this, because you mention shit wages.

The real problem is that Americans believe we have the right to have this work done cheaply. Workers should be paid what their work is worth. Instead, we import the poorest of the poor and take advantage of their situation.

As I said, when the slaughterhouses upped wages because they had to, they found workers.

Hell, pay me a decent wage, and I'd pick strawberries. Treat me like a slave, and I'm not interested.

[cboy4]

42. Listen whoever you are....don't accuse me of advocating the

importation of the very poor to work in this country.

I'm not in favor of that, nor will you find a single writing in which I advocate that.

So knock it off.

My position is I empathize with their plight..of being desperate to provide for their families.

And I strongly believe Lou Dobbs blames the workers instead of the lousy employers.

If he wants to spend an hour talking about the borders....how about at least dividing blame for the problem 50/50. AT least.

Instead....it's the filthy Mexican's fault.

[spanone]

8. He's an entertainer. That's his schtick.

The more he rants the higher his ratings go. Go figure.

[TahitiNut]

9. I don't get the hyperbole. 'Alien' is the legal term.

Many of those who cross the border illegally are NOT 'immigrants,' even by intention. One might say they're (illegal or undocumented) 'migrants' but that's just another word - they're people who have every intention of returning to the country in which they're citizens - after working here.

I see nothing perjorative about the term 'alien' - it's the legal term. My grandparents were aliens until they attained citizenship. I have no problem with that. When I'm in Tahiti, I'm an alien. When I'm in England, I'm an alien. Why not discuss the substantive issues instead of finding offense where none exists?

It's a false issue - a red herring. :shrug:

[oldtimecanuk]

11. They may not ever intend on returning...

to their country of origin, but by pure virtue of the fact that they have not checked in with Customs, that now makes them an illegal Alien, plain and simple... It would be the same situation for anyone crossing into a country in Europe without clearing Customs.... It's illegal period...

ww

[TahitiNut]

13. I agree. We COULD discuss whether our immigration policy is fair.

We COULD discuss whether it's even enforced properly - and why or why not (cheap labor?). But these red herrings about language that's exactly the same as used in our statutes just clutter up the forums and misdirect people's emotions to fruitless and ridiculous targets.

[oldtimecanuk]

14. yep, your correct but it is a reallity...

The whole thing is, crossing a border into another country is a big deal.... If I as a Canadian crossed into Mexico (That's an ie: by the way) without stopping at their border and checking with customs.... Geez, I just would not want to imagine would could happen to me.....

ww

[TahitiNut]

21. Well, I've crossed dozens of borders scores of times.

I've crossed the US/Canadian border in several locations, the US/Mexico border in two places, the borders of various European countries, and the borders of Caribbean and South Pacific nations.

None of them were ever as much of a hassle as entering the US almost every time. (French Polynesia comes in a distant second place.) A large part of the reason seems to be the 'documentation' that an American citizen needs to have in order to work, stay at a hotel, do banking, and other activities seems to be far less 'coordinated' than in other countries. We have this aversion to "identity cards" and, as a result, have a whole plethora of them.

Even the easiest times I've crossed into the US (which was usually from visiting Canada) have been more officious than the pre-EU borders in Europe. (Hell, I even had to almost beg a couple of times to get the border guard to stamp my passport - or even look at it.)

It's the usual kabuki. It's window-dressing to obscure the fact that our borders are vastly open. Like in many things, we have bureaucrats (private and public) who spend their time hassling average people rather than doing the harder work. It's like the kabuki of airline travel. The 'security checkpoints' exists solely to give people some impression they're 'safe' - when, actually, almost anyone can walk onto an airport and plant something on a plane.

It's all about business - and profits. Nothin' else.

[oldtimecanuk]

24. I am loving this debate... truely....

If the US and Mexico had a Parlimentary system like Canada does, IMHO I don't think that either of these countries would be facing what they are today. As I stated in one of my other posts... The Canadian Prime Minister is living on borrowed time.... he has a minority Govt. with 4 parties and any two of the other parties (would have to include the Liberals) could bring down the Harper Govt. in a NY minute.
All that would have to happen is a Non confidence vote in Parliment, and the Govt. falls with a date set for an election.......

ww

[Strawman]

32. Again, you have nailed it

That's what people do on difficult issues. They look for strawmen and red herrings to evade confounding questions and blame and label others. It's the same with the draft. What's fair here? What's fair for our workers? What's fair for people in Mexico and the rest of Latin America? The Dobbs solution that achieves "fairness" by excluding aliens from the realm of concern or some kind of global soultion to the problem of poverty that is driving all of this? What is fair for everyone? I'm not hearing good answers to that question in the press. All I hear about is who hates Mexcians, who "hates America," who wants to "protect our jobs," blah blah blah.

Resolving the issue of whether or not Lou Dobbs is an asshole gets us where on the immgration issue? Nowhere. That's where. He's a xenophobic white guy. Ok. Now what are we going to do about this problem that can honestly be described as doing something?

[musette_sf]

12. agreed, it's the proper legal term

my dad used to get stuff addressed to "Alien", before he got his citizenship.

i was still pretty young at that time, and i do remember thinking, "is he a Martian?"

[cboy4]

30. HE IS OBSESSED WITH IT. That's my problem. Alien may be an

accurate definition, but it's insulting to many people.

Dobbs can say ILLEGAL immigrant, which is also an accurate description.

But he refuses because he's clearly angry and disgusted that Mexicans are cleaning his hotel room instead of African or other Americans.

I remember Jesse Jackson tried to correct him one time about using the word "alien," and in a very smug manner, Dobbs blew him off and huffed that HE calls them "illegal aliens."

It's his pattern TahitiNut.

He is obsessed with this issue and he is not the least bit open minded to other views.

That is my observation and that is my view.

Offense exists. You are, with all due respect, wrong.

[TahitiNut]

33. Well, there's sure a lot of antipathy toward Lou Dobbs.

While some of it may be well-founded, I find myself in agreement with him quite often. The "middle class" (actually, the bottom 90%) is getting fucked over. Big time. The "bottom 50%" in Mexico are living in near-poverty or poverty due to EXACTLY the kind of economic system we're getting in the US. Rather than us making THEM better off, the flow of inequity seems to be the other way. Mexico has long ago become "plantation economics" - with a VERY WEALTHY "top 1%" and a huge underclass.

The Gini Ratio in Mexico is about 0.55.
The Gini Ratio in the US is about 0.45 and climbing.
Compare that to the Gini Ratio in Norway, France, Germany and the other European countries ... or even with Japan ... and the march toward a plantation economy in the US is crystal clear.

The "open border" with Mexico serves two Robber Baron purposes: (1) it's a pressure relief valve for Mexico's ruling class, and (2) it's a union-busting, cheap labor service to the "Ownership Class" in the US. The "bonus" is that it divides the political establishment from the working class.

I can stand on just one principle: It's fundamentally wrong to have a working class that cannot vote! Whether it's huge numbers of felons (mostly young blacks) who've had their voting rights taken away or guest workers or "illegal aliens" ... that's NOT what enterprise is all about. Working, and benefiting thereby, MUST be the topmost priority. Human Labor must NOT be treated as a commodity!


Now, I'll be the first to say that our Immigration Policies are totally fucked up.
I'm strongly in favor of admitting more Haitians and people from African countries.
I was strongly in favor of welcoming far more refugees (boat people) from Viet Nam than we did.

At the same time, it's TOTALLY meaningless to have a system of laws that are ignored.
That cannot be tolerated. But I'm 500% more in favor of penalizing the businesses (criminally!) than the migrants.

[cboy4]

34. This issue is not among the top 5 problems we face in this country,

so why does he have to dwell on it so disproportionately during his show?

That's my beef.

I understand all of your points.

But all of those points, in my opinion, do not deserve the overwhelming amount of one-sided coverage this issue receives during his little one hour horse and pony show.

He is so biased, he intimidates his reporters into editorializing on set after their stories air.

That is not the function of a journalist. It's to present both sides.

He needs to become a columnist. Then I wouldn't have a single thing wrong with his behavior.

But he is a major network news anchor. You don't editorialize as though you're working for FOX News.

It's a big journalism no-no.

[Critters2]

36. Preach it!!

With charts and everything! :thumbsup:

[TahitiNut]

39. Some people seem to think the way to help a sick neighbor is to get just as sick.

I don't understand that thinking. :shrug:

[Critters2]

40. Me neither. And I fear the thinking won't change until it's too late.

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

10. No. Not as long as there is such

a thing as the US Constitution which prohibits US Military from enforcing civil laws.

[cboy4]

18. I won't argue with you about that. I know Posse Comitatus

is an issue many Americans aren't even familiar with.

I don't even know for sure how I stand.

My main point is I'm much more upset with Dobbs' constant focus on Mexicans and the border.

Hey Lou.....what about all of those non-inspected cargo containers arriving in L.A., Long Beach and Oakland every day??

Hardly a peep about this very dangerous situation that worries me as a Californian, much more than who's cleaning our hotel rooms.

[crikkett]

16. "Aliens" are the new Jews, and We Thought We Were Free.

Everything's Their Fault. They're a Danger to National Security and are Taking Jobs Away from Us. :wtf: Let them work in "Guest Worker Programs" :scared: how many do you think will be "housed" at the border with no freedom of movement?

[oldtimecanuk]

17. hahaha....

Well that was a different additive to this debate...

ww

[cboy4]

19. Instead of laughing at what everyone else is writing, how about

responding to my question to you?

[oldtimecanuk]

25. Sorry cboy4 ...

What was the question again????

ww

[cboy4]

27. You answered. Thanks.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=31606&mesg_id=32133

[eagler]

20. Many demoocrats support him,myself included.

nt

[leftofthedial]

23. didn't the story the bush cabal made up to explain what happened on 9-11

also involve illegal aliens who entered the US through Canada?


Not everyone likes Mexicans. I guess Lou-ser is one.

[treestar]

28. Called "ICE" (Immigration and Customs Enforcement)

It's their job. No one else's. Not the states, not the municipalities, not the people. ICE's (used to be the INS, now divided into CIS and ICE).

I don't get the obsession with lines drawn by humankind. Or why capital can cross those lines at will, while labor can't. It's just shooting ourselves in the foot, as labor, and one of those areas of bread and circuses. The capitalists fool us into shooting ourselves in the foot.

[Critters2]

41. Flooding the market with cheap labor

is shooting ourselves in the foot.

[treestar]

43. And let the capitalist move wherever he wants

Flooding the market is with human beings, at least. But if that market is not flooded, the capitalist can move to where it is.

You're just saying people are of no value because they were born outside those lines called "the U.S."

While the capitalist can go anywhere.

A Republican Dream, keep it up, they'll be very happy.

[Critters2]

45. Actually, the real power behind the Repugs is happy

exploiting cheap labor, and bringing more of it here. Workers should be paid what their work is worth, regardless of where they are. Instead, poor workers from other nations are brought here (yes, brought, empolyers send trucks to Mexico to get them) paid less than their work is worth, thus depressing wages here and doing nothing to improve the situation where they came from.

Globalization and open borders hurt everyone but the corporations. Far from saying people are of no value, I argue that they are valuable, and should be able to make a living wage where they are, without moving to the US or anywhere else. I advocate improving the Mexican economy, rather than harming ours. NAFTA has made that nearly impossible, and certainly unlikely.

But believe me, open borders keep the corporations who fund the Republican party VERY happy. Why do you think Bush advocates them?

[baldguy]

44. Scapegoating the most vulnerable people in society...