Reparations

[BayCityProgressive]

This should be a popcorn inducing topic. In light of recent news stories regarding Al Sharpton decending from Thurmond family slaves...how do you feel about reparations? I realize this issue is political suicide. I believe very strongly that African Americans deserve some form of compensation.

Not only did they endure slavery but also segregation and still instituional racism. The decendants of many slave owners have inherited land and wealth that was created by slaves working for nothing under terrible conditions. Even though slaves contributed a great deal to this country and helped shape it into what it is today, they didn't get the choice to pass any of the wealth they created down to their decendents. They created the wealth, yet recieved none of the benefits AND HAVE NEVER BEEN REPAID. So my question is: do you support reparations and if so, how would we decide who gets them and in what form would they come?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

1. I'm with you. Though how reparations could be made baffles me.

America, as a whole, is ignorant of what slavery really entailed for those who suffered under it. And, they ignore the continuing effects of it and the aftermath of the civil war and the partial "freedom" it engendered.

The Civil War is a prime example of "winning the war and losing the peace."

America has yet to come to terms with it's past regarding slavery and it's aftermath.

[bryant69]

2. I support reperations the same way I support developing transporters

Great in theory, never happen in practice.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[lvx35]

3. I support reparations to any surviving slave.

from any surviving slave owner. But beyond that, its too late. You can't convict people for the crimes of their ancestors.

[BayCityProgressive]

5. but couldn't the US government

be forced to pony up? The government of the US benefited greatly from this. The promises of reconstruction were never fulfilled. How about gov. money to go towards school, housing, ect to people who can prove they decended from slaves? I don't know if this would work..just throwing it out there.

[Sammy Pepys]

7. They couldn't even keep the whole Katrina debit-card mess straight....

You think they'll be able to pull off something like that?

[lvx35]

9. Its an interesting idea

some governments (many state ones I imagine) and some corporations that benefited from slavery are still around, so the recipients descended from slaves would have to make some argument regarding the value of inheritance over the generations. But it is true that corporations are legally individuals...If only slaves had come together and formed a corporation, then the the reparations argument would be quite sound, damages from one individual to another.

[Bronyraurus]

22. The government doesn't have any money

until they take it from taxpayers. No taxpayers want to pay for this, so it will never happen. (Nor should it, obviously.)

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

26. The government has tons of money.

They're currently wasting it on Iraq, which nobody wants to pay for.

[frankenforpres]

31. taxpayers money being wasted

the gov would have to increase taxes to pay reparations. it is a non starter.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

32. Or just cut spending.

:shrug:

[Bronyraurus]

38. The public is willing to pay for it

I don't think that cutting off funding for Iraq would be a politically popular choice, which is why it hasn't happened. Regretting getting into the war and stopping the war on a dime are two entirely different things.

[cali]

34. I believe in reparations in the form of a massive infusion of money

into inner cities where the majority of the population is African American. Forget having to prove decendency from slaves.

[jeffrey_X]

62. Good call. Those blacks had it made during the Jim Crow era.

You know....the Jim Crow era that was a direct result of slavery.

I think you get the point.

[BlueJazz]

4. It's not a Black issue but a "Poor Issue" ...

I mean..Then and Now, the poor have been exploited and used by the wealthy for their own enrichment of life and also their offspring.
True..Black folks have received much more discrimination

The Answer..in my H.O. is simply to tax the very wealthy the way they should be...
..after all, they wouldn't have shit without the rest of us.

And to those who say: Well then, the Rich won't open more businesses and Blah, Blah, Blah...Bullshit, there's 50 people waiting to take their place if the "Going gets to tough" for them....

[Sammy Pepys]

6. Anti-reparations

1) As one other poster put it, you have non-slave owners giving money to non-slaves for the crime of slavery. Doesn't make much sense.

2) Lots and lots and lots of people have immigrated here to America from all over the world since slavery ended. The chances are pretty good that many of them had absolutely nothing to do whatsoever with American slavery, either as a trader, owner or slave. So many of us are even further detached from that phenomenon. But it's doubtful that anyone would weed folks according to ancestry.

3) Isn't this essenitally buying off history? Isn't the argument going to be made amongst some that the ills of slavery are essentially off the books because we padi off the bill, so to speak? Hey, slavery was bad...but we made up for it later so everything's cool now! That's nonsense.

4) And finally...I think some people are just looking for a quick buck. I'd even go so far to call it exploitation...which is a pretty lousy tribute towards those who actually had to endure it.

[BayCityProgressive]

8. thanks for your opinions it is a hard topic for sure

here are some things from wikipedia:

Reparations for slavery is a movement in the United States, which suggests that the government apologize to slave descendants for their hardships, and bestow on them reparations, whether it be in the form of money, land, or other goods. There is also a newer movement to secure reparations, particularly from Western, ex-colonial powers, for Africa and African nations. In 2001, at a UN-sponsored World Conference against Racism, African nations demanded a clear apology for the slavery from the former slave-trading countries, but with no success.

Proposals for reparations

Government payments
Some proposals have called for cash payments from the U.S. government. The question of who should receive such payments, and in what amount, has been highly controversial, since the United States Census does not track descent from slaves, and relies on self-reported racial categories.


Private payments
Private corporations were also complicit in slavery. On March 8, 2000, Reuters News Service reported that Deadria Farmer-Paellmann, a recent law school graduate, initiated a one-woman campaign making a historic demand for restitution and apologies from modern companies that played a direct role in enslaving Africans. Aetna Inc. was her first target because of their practice of writing life insurance policies on the lives of enslaved Africans with slave owners as the beneficiaries. In response to Farmer-Paellmann's demand, Aetna Inc. issued an unprecedented public apology, and the "corporate restitution movement" was born.

By 2002, nine (9) lawsuits were filed around the country coordinated by Farmer-Paellmann and the Restitution Study Group -- a New York non-profit. The cases were consolidated under 28 U.S.C. § 1407 to multidistrict litigation in the United States District Court for the Northern District of Illinois. The litigation included 20 plaintiffs demanding restitution from 20 companies from the banking, insurance, textile, railroad, and tobacco industries. The district court dismissed the lawsuits with prejudice, and the claimants appealed to the United States Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit. On December 13, 2006, that Court, in an opinion written by Judge Richard Posner, modified the district court's judgment to be a dismissal without prejudice, affirmed the majority of the district court's judgment, and reversed the portion of the district court's judgment dismissing the plaintiffs' consumer protection claims, remanding the case for further proceedings consistent with its opinion <1>.

In October 2000, California passed a Slavery Era Disclosure Law requiring insurance companies doing business there to report on their role in slavery. The disclosure legislation, introduced by Senator Tom Hayden, is the prototype for similar laws passed in 12 states around the United States.

[Solo_in_MD]

19. The wiki article like many ignores the active participation of africans in the slave trade

Since they also profited, some would argue the most, they too should be paying.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

33. Africans profited the most from slavery?

:rofl:

[LanternWaste]

46. Which west African governments...

Which west African governments that participated in the American slave trade still exist? None. Which American government that participated in (and profited from) the American Slave trade still exist? One.

[ikojo]

50. Three of my great grandparents came over

in the early 1900s.

[fla nocount]

10. Osiyo brother DU'ers

While we're passing out reparations, pass some this way. The casinos aren't doing much for most of us.

[BayCityProgressive]

11. I also think more needs to be done for Native Americans

They need to have fully independant tribal lands with access to good education, healthcare, and job training..

[cgrindley]

39. Absolutely

First Nations people deserve everything they can get.

[itsmesgd]

15. I think that this topic is brought up to stoke the fires of racism

I'm with you if they start to give out reparations, they can start by giving back tribal lands. I also love to bring this up when they talk about illegal immigration. Some RW'ers think that white people "discovered" America and "everybody else" should go back where they came from. The last time I checked I traced my ancestors to land about 300 miles away from where I'm sitting right now.

[fla nocount]

42. Hey, I'm 1/4 bred

Son of a 1/2 who was a son of two 1/2's who married a white person, sort of, she was Welsh. The culture was there in my upbringing though. I remember the old ladies at family reunions, tobacco chewing HUGH old ladies playing dominoes while wearing MU-MU's. What I find strange now though is that while they knew place names like Topeka or Tulsa they had no concept of Kansas nor Oklahoma. They remembered as girls a migratory path that emcompassed a range from the Caddo Lakes region of Texas, before the dredging of the Red River, to somewhere south of the Dakotas. Others remembered eastern points like Pascagula. They had it all sorted out in a personal language that I never spoke or could comprehend.They were the old ladies in my family and as long as they were alive...........they were the bosses; I grew up in a matriarchal society.....they knew what we guys were for and it wasn't for critical decisions concerning the world that they had to live in.

Don't want to steal a thread with a side item but I thought that I should respond to your post.

Two talking points in our modern world disturb me to a great degree though because they ring so true.

#1) "A land with no people for a people with no land"

#2) "If you suffer them to dwell among you, they shall become as a needle in your eye."

I'm a needle.......maybe genocide is the answer for those who would rule.

[goclark]

12. Hope this thread can stay civil

I recall being devastated by the comments posted and the hurtful things that were said about my ancestors about 2 years ago at DU.

I am renewed to see that a few now are not expressing their hate filled thoughts about even the word REPARATIONS.

I will stay far away from this discussion but hope that it thrives with some degree of compassion for African Americans.

[BayCityProgressive]

13. at the very least

I would like to see an official government apology and a law passed that forces governments and businesses to do what is socially responsible. No investments in sweatshops, no discrimination policies, no paying women less, and no doing business with racist or sexist foreign firms.

[goclark]

21. I am renewed by your post

thank you for your response.

[Virginia Dare]

70. That's a very sensible approach...

nice post :thumbsup:

[porphyrian]

14. The best reparations would be the elimination of institutional racism/classism.

Fix the system, and maybe admit we were wrong for allowing it, and most complaints should go away.

[BayCityProgressive]

16. if we had things like

universal healthcare and guaranteed housing for all who work, are disabled, or go to school and an end to child poverty we wouldn't have to discuss this. Unfortunately, the rich keep all the money in this country.

[porphyrian]

17. I agree completely, and I'm stubborn enough to still think we can change this. - n/t

[Sapere aude]

18. Reparations make no sense to me. How do you prove your ancestors were slaves?

Suppose that my great great grand dad or mom were a slave. I am white, why don't I get reparations? Suppose that your great great grandparents came from Africa but were not slaves, why should you get reparations?

Why should someone today get paid for the suffering of people many generations ago? Why should I feel guilty because some people over a hundred years ago owned slaves?


I don't have a good reason in my head why there should be reparations. The thing to do in my opinion is to make sure that all the history of this country good and bad about all races is taught in school.

As a nation we have a lot that we can not take pride in and a lot that we can be proud of. It takes a strong country to admit it's faults but no one should be singled out as a victim today of the faults of those living a hundred years ago.

[BayCityProgressive]

20. okay I propose another question

a lot of people bring up "sins of the fathers" ect. and say that people shouldn't be paid money now for something they had no part in. Basically "you weren't a slave so why should you get anything". Let me play devil's advocate then. Why do we not tax inheritance at 100%? After all YOU didn't do any of the work that made your grandparents or whomever the wealth..yet people like Paris Hilton get it for doing nothing. If you against reparations because the people getting it didn't suffer for it...should you not also be against inheritance since the person never worked or did anything for that either?

[Bronyraurus]

25. No

Once of the most fundamental property rights is the right to decide where it goes, in life and in death. If my dying wish is to give my money to a charity, or my brat kid, or some babe I had a thing for, who are you or the government to stop me? It's not Paris Hilton's wish for her future inheritance that holds legal weight; it's the wish of her parents who have it now.

[Karenina]

35. IIRC, Jefferson proposed exactly that

to guard against the rise of an "American" aristocracy.

Fully realizing I'm treading on land mine strewn ground, does anyone notice the difference between the treatment and rightful claims of the descendants of the Holocaust and those of indigenous or enslaved peoples?

Exnomination, anyone? :shrug:

[Bronyraurus]

41. Holocaust survivors are still alive

as are plenty of real, live Nazis.

[jeffrey_X]

49. This is a stupid arguement....of course no slaves are still alive and it's

difficult to prove who is and who isn't a decendant of a slave.

The bigger point here, which most people seem to miss, is the conditions and environments that were created by slavery. Tell your little theory to the kids that have been growing up in the inner-city ghettos for the last 4 decades. They are growing up in conditions directly related to the legacy of slavery.

I'm not saying I'm for it or against it, but this is the point I'd look at. It wouldn't be cash, it would be grants and scholarships for education or maybe even free healthcare.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

23. I think the United States government should pay...

reparations to the descendants of slaves. Just like they paid reparations to internment victims.

[Sammy Pepys]

24. Should they pay reparations to the descendents of internment victims?

...

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

27. They already did.

One more anti-reparation argument shot down.

[Spider Jerusalem]

45. No, they didn't.

They paid reparations to INTERNEES, not to their descendants (just as the German government paid reparations to HOLOCAUST VICTIMS, and not to their descendants). The payment of reparations to those who were personally subjected to these things is vastly different from payment of reparations to their descendants; to suggest that either of these is an argument for paying reparations to the DESCENDANTS of slaves, 140 years after the fact, is nothing more than sophistry.

[Sammy Pepys]

63. No they didn't.

I work with the direct descendent of a victim of internment. He didn't get any reparations.

[Dark]

28. Oh, yeah. Take from the whites and give to the blacks. That'll solve racial tensions real well.

If you're going to say, "But, those whites are still rich from the slave trade," well, so are the people in Africa who helped trade them.

Slavery sucked, and there are still racial problems that persist. No question. But this idea is one of the most asinine I've ever heard.

Here's a better idea:

Universal health care for all Americans and college education paid for all students who acheive a 3.0. Then everyone benefits and has (more) equal access. And how about some foreign aid to Africa?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

30. Ah

The "Africans" had slaves too, argument.

Right on schedule.

[LanternWaste]

48. It's not taking from the whites. It's the government giving back

It's not taking from the whites. It's the government (black, white, brown, green and probably even magenta) giving back.

None of the west African governments that engaged in the American slave trade exist any more. The American government however, which did engage in and profit from the American slave trade, still does exist.

[ikojo]

52. Not all whites are rich.

I agree with real foreign aid to Africa and universal college education at least to the bachelor's degree level. There is much untapped potential out there but it cannot be realized due to the cost of a college education.

How about setting an interest limit that can be charged on a home loan say at 2% or something very low. That way more people might be able to afford a mortgage payment.

[ecstatic]

61. eww

:eyes:

I am definitely not feeling the tone or implications of your post. Believe it or not, there are a lot of blacks right here in this country who are better off financially than you are. That being said, the topic of reparations is still an issue that needs to be addressed.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

29. No, I Don't.

I consider the logic flawed.

I think anyone who was directly wronged by another is absolutely entitled to compensation. I do not for a second think that descendants that did not suffer themselves deserve compensation from other descendants who did nothing to begin with. Just simply wouldn't make any sense.

[cali]

36. But they did suffer.

African Americans suffered for generations, and still suffer today from the effects of institutional racism stemming from slavery. I'm not for individual reparations, but as I said upthread, I am for reparations in the form of infusion of money into schools, housing and healthcare in inner cities.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

40. From A Socially Responsible Perspective Absolutely.

I'm more referring to the Sharpton premise than anything else though.

[cgrindley]

37. No

There are plenty of people who live in the US who came from cultures that had nothing to do with slavery. I say that if there are reparations, let the decendants of slaves go after the descendants of those who owned their ancestors.

[live love laugh]

53. I think Al Sharpton should get reparations from Thurmond's estate.

That's one proven case. I'm sure if he does it will clamp the door shut on future discoveries but it's the price that should be paid--when there is a definite link. Thurmond's family rose on the backs of Sharpton's family and they should share their wealth.

[cgrindley]

55. Absolutley 100%

That'd be justice.

[Colobo]

57. It would just bring more problems

I feel reparations, at this point in history, wouldn't do any good. As others have said, let's focus on instutional and CULTURAL racism so that we can secure a better tomorrow for future generations.

[k_jerome]

43. yes to reparations. nt.

[vincent_vega_lives]

47. OK but who pays whom? (n/t)

[k_jerome]

54. we (the people) pay african americans. nt.

[Spider Jerusalem]

58. "The people" includes African-Americans.

Do they pay themselves?

And what about second- or third-generation Americans whose parents or grandparents came from, say, Nigeria? They're still African-American; do they get paid? What about people like Barack Obama? His American ancestors were slaveowners, not slaves.

And a majority of Americans are descended from immigrants who arrived after the Civil War; they had nothign to do with slavery one way or another--is it fair to expect that they should pay for a crime committed against people no longer alive by people they had no connection to?

Reparations are a poorly conceived idea , impossible to carry out in anything approaching a fair or equitable manner. The only remotely fair way of doing it would be if the money came from taxes paid by EVERYONE, and if that money were used to fund scholarships, education and urban renewal projects--collective rather than individual benefit.

[k_jerome]

59. a portion of african americans tax money would go to paying....

themselves. i am sure this would be acceptable to those receiving the significant check.

[Spider Jerusalem]

60. But just giving people a check doesn't address underlying issues and inequalities.

The problems of urban decay in largely African-American inner cities would still exist; the problems of educational inequality and lack of opportunity would still exist. Which is why I can't support the idea of individual reparations; the idea seems, basically, insulting. "Here, have some money. Now shut up about how bad you have it." The only way any reparations program would be meaningful or successful would be if the money were used COLLECTIVELY to address the underlying inequalities that have become ingrained in American society since the end of slavery. INDIVIDUAL reparations would accomplish nothing at all (to say nothing of the difficulty of determining who would receive them).

[vincent_vega_lives]

64. What about Jamaican, Haitian, Dominican, Cape Verdian and

Bahamian Americans who's relations came to this country after slavery.

[k_jerome]

65. same deal. nt.

[vincent_vega_lives]

66. why (n/t)

[k_jerome]

69. because they share in the results of that episode...

every day.

[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LanternWaste]

51. Let go of the past?

Let go of the past? Does that mean let go of all the past... good and bad? Let go of the great achievements America has accomplished? Let go of the wonderful advances in arts, literature, entertainment, culture, cuisine? Or do you mean we need to let go of the "messy bits that forces me to see our failures, too"?

Maybe you could explain that statement to me so we can understand it better.

Also, why mention the ghetto? Maybe you could explain that, too as I don't grasp the relevance of that-- but then, I lack your obvious depth of wit, wisdom and insight...

[David Zephyr]

56. I support it. I have posted so since the earliest days of the DU in 2001.

Reparations for African-Americans and for the Native Americans, too.

[gravity]

67. Reperations would just be a mess

It would be better if the government spent the money fighting poverty, healthcare, and providing more educational oppurtunities for minorities.

[Mister Ed]

68. On this question, I don't care what I think. I care what African-Americans think. n/t