Do you think pornography is immoral?

[Smith_3]

I get the impression that there are many different opinions here with regards to pornography. As it is wide. According to this site, 12% of all websites are pornographic and 25% of all search engine requests are for pornographic material. 42.7% of internet users view porn. 28% of viewers of pornography are women.

http://internet-filter-review.toptenreviews.com/internet-pornography-statistics.html

Apparently there is an extremely high demand for pornography in society. So, do you think pornography is immoral or degrading to women? Or do you think it is healthy and natural? What do you think is a progressive stance with regards to pornography?

[barbtries]

1. as long as it's consenting adults

whether making it or watching/reading it, i don't have a problem with it. consenting, grown up people. have at it.

do you think it's immoral?

[bluestateguy]

2. Reopening the DU porn wars, I see

You don't know much about the history of this site, do you?

You have just opened up a big scab wound that took a long time to heal.

[Smith_3]

4. Not been here that long.

:) Sorry. What was the "porn wars"?

[bluestateguy]

5. It's just a DU sore spot

There are threads in the archives on this issue with 500+ replies.

Myeslf, I say live and let live. As long as everybody is a consenting adult, I say less government and more freedom, which is also my view on guns and drugs.

[ColbertWatcher]

69. Links, or it didn't happen. n/t

[Oleladylib]

3. It's still a highly chauvanistic, male dominated culture..

not to difficult to figure out how female's fare! But then, stupid is as stupid does.

[Ian David]

6. No, what's immoral...

... is when Logo makes you sit through 45 minutes of women talking about their feelings before you get to see them kissing for 45 seconds.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

16. .....

:rofl:

[TheMightyFavog]

31. Give that man a DUzy!

:rofl:

[CRF450]

67. self delete

[CRF450]

68. YEEESS!!!

rec!

[Regret My New Name]

75. haha

[babylonsister]

7. Not between consenting adults. And porno can be found off the

internets, too, so widen your search. Healthy and natural? If you aren't hurting anyone else, what's the problem?

[Fumesucker]

8. How is gay male porn degrading to women?

Not all porn is hetero..

[Ian David]

49. I'm going to play Fundie's Advocate for a moment, and argue that point, although I agree with you.

Gay male porn is degrading to women because...

because...

... this is going to take a while. I need to try and think like a prudish fundie....


Hmmm.... WWJD..... (What Would JamesDobson Do).... HmMMMMMm....


Oh, I got it!

Okay.... (In my best Conservative Preacher Voice)...

"Homa-sex-yew-all male porn-OG-raphy is de-GRADE-ing to women be-CAUSE it tempts men from their marriages into the homa-sexual lifestyle. And homa-sex'yall male porn shows men performing sex-yill acts on one another that women are physically unable to perform, thus making them feel inadequate and de-GRADE-ed."

Sorry, that's the best I can do.

Translation: Maybe they think it turns men gay, and that women feel sad because they don't have penises to use on their gay-porn-watching husbands.



"Just go to the airport, Larry. I'll be at Bible Study."

[Heather MC]

59. It puts women out work!! That's degrading

[devilgrrl]

62. Gay porn is degrading to women because the men are better looking that the guys in straight porn.

What's up with that? Why aren't there any men in straight porn that look like Carlo Masi?

[Festivito]

9. Men love visuals, and women love those sexy novel words.

Even two married adults stripping and making sexy prose could be considered immoral if one or the other feels degraded while doing so.

My deeper view is that each of us has our rules written on our hearts, and that writ may not be the same on every other persons heart. So, what is immoral for one, may not be immoral for another.

[Echo In Light]

10. I know of plenty of women who love those visuals too, blatantly pornographic or not

I say it's up to the individual to decide what works for them, and why.

[girl gone mad]

50. whatever.

Women love "visuals", too. Lots of Hollywood stars owe their careers to that basic reality.

[Festivito]

87. Not said by me that they don't.

If you know a person who rejects pornography, try telling that person how awful are romance novels, and they suddenly quit trying to stop porn -- at least while you're there.

I've met women who like porn, but few. I've met men who do not like it, but, again, few. I do not know of any scientific study, so, I'm stuck with what little I know.

[mac2]

11. How do they know 28% views are women?

Gay women? Pornography is probably very popular among teens curious about sex. I don't believe these numbers of usage. Internet advertising more the story then morality?

Exploitation of women and their lack of power in our society puts them in mental and financial danger.

Use of under age children should be and is a crime.

I tell you I'm sick of those sex e-mails I get. I try to block them. They pick up words and names from my e-mail and use that to get me to open them. I don't.

Porn sites should have their own .com so we can block them (such as .sex). If they fail to use them, there is a fine and blocking of their sites, etc. Probably many are opened by mistake. If Internet companies and the government wanted it, it could be done. Instead they sell our information over and over for their own profit.

Interest in sex is normal but not the constant pushing it in our faces. I'd rather have people looking at love and sex then war and torture games.

[Cairycat]

12. Immoral, no. Capable of causing harm, yes.

Pornography of consenting adults is not immoral at all. But porn is like alcohol in that it can certainly be abused, and the abuse can lead to much heartache and destruction of relationships. Porn on the internet certainly didn't cause this, but it has sped up and exacerbated many peoples' problems with it.

For too many people (primarily male but not exclusively), it can become so much of a substitute for emotional and physical intimacy that it can leave the viewer incapable of these. It may sound far-fetched to some, but I feel there is a real possibility of a generation of young men so accustomed to masturbating to pornography that they are incapable of sustaining a real-life relationship.

I don't think the solution is censorship. But I think it would be good for us as a society to be able to discuss the problems that porn usage can cause, and be more open to discussing solutions for those who find it ruining their relationships and lives.

[panAmerican]

17. It's a problem that needs large-scale discussion, but people are afraid

It is so taboo to talk about sex, even in a positive context. And when it is talked about, it is usually to denigrate certain people or practices, so it makes the conversation toxic from the get-go. I think this is why porn's appeal grows. It allows people to explore all kinds of things that they have no outlet for in the real world, and sometimes becomes a substitute, even when the real thing is available.

[Hippo_Tron]

71. Does that have to do with not being able to seperate reality from fantasy?

I've viewed my share of crazy porn in my lifetime but I definitely don't expect real life intimacy to be anything like it nor do I want it to be. And I definitely prefer real life intimacy and feelings over porn.

[Gman]

13. "What good is an Internet connection

if you can't use it to look at fucked up shit that you'll never do?" (or something like that) -- Randal Graves, Clerks II

[NJmaverick]

14. HELL NO!!!!!!!

[grantcart]

79. I will need to research it some more

[Double T]

15. EVERYTHING in moderation is just fine.

Obsession can be a problem. Freedom to view pornography must be maintained and sustained.

[lightningandsnow]

18. Not really.

There is a lot that is pretty misogynistic, stupid, and degrading to women - while some people might enjoy watching that, I don't think it's good. I don't think it should be banned (not at all), but a good amount of it spreads a lot of sexist, dumb attitudes towards women.

That being said, there's a fair bit of non-sexist, good porn out there - in fact, there's a whole genre of porn that's feminist. (Google "feminist porn awards" - yes, there is such a thing!)

In terms of the literal definition - actual graphic sex in visual media- it's not immoral. Sex is a part of life - why would videotaping it or taking pictures of it be immoral?

[melody]

19. Hell no.

I've worked around the adult industry for years. The business is run by women -- very wealthy, empowered women.

[panAmerican]

23. Wealthy != Empowered

Just because some women have achieved notoriety in the industry doesn't mean they're empowered. The average woman in the business is more replaceable than the average man in the business.

[melody]

25. Tell me what gives you more empowerment than money

I'm sorry, I don't believe that working at a $10 an hour steno job while holding onto some abstract moral superiority is empowerment but earning twenty million a year but "debasing" yourself by - SHOCK! - actually having sex is weakness.

This whole argument is nothing but a feminist translation of sexual puritanism.

[Echo In Light]

28. Over the yrs the number of young women wanting to work in porn has increased drastically

Most are involved briefly, and do it for quick cash and kicks. But the old standard justification, the "get rich" myth, by and large was gone even back in the 80s. Women are now expected - provided they want to get into the business at all, or remain relevant for porn consumers - to engage in very extreme forms of sex/sexual degradation compared to the porn of the 70s and 80s, yet make considerably much less $ than the so called "stars" of the VHS based era of porn.

I've read about films where the women are paid well under $1000 for performing rigorous group activities that most "porn stars" back in the day wouldn't gone near for considerably much more money. This phenomenon speaks to how more young women are gravitating to, being influenced by and assimilating to porn-esque sexuality vis-a-vis internet accessibility.

[melody]

32. There are extremes in all fields. I know of no mainstream producer that will even go near Xstream

Women aren't some bunch of simple-minded sheep that "gravitate" toward porn. I know tons of porn stars. I write erotica. All the women I know came into the business consciously. The prissy, "poor women trapped in porn" paternalism is an insult to these women.

Sex is normal ... porn is good and EVERYONE enjoys their form of it. You can lie all you want and say you don't, but the fact remains.
Women just like written porn but they have their own. And before you say "but that's written", you'd be amazed at the number of feminists who rail on about homoerotica (slash) written by women.

So many people love to take a stand against porn or erotica -- it makes them seem so moral and noble. And it's as dishonest as the day is long. Behind every single anti-porn crusader is a MAJOR porn consumer. Believe me -- I know people with Washington, DC porn sites.

[Echo In Light]

36. What part of my post are you disagreeing with?

The old "get rich" myth, or, more precisely, the rationale many people rely on to explain {away} why and how women justify working in porn, is largely non applicable these days. Women aren't stupid, and when they sign on for a movie, or an audition, they know up front what's expected of them and how much $ they're going to get for performing. Sure, several hundred dollars for a porn movie scene is much more than a woman would get for a day's work in fast food or retail, but let's face it, she's not going to "get rich" by doing it.

I'm sure there are all sorts of personal and socioeconomic factors involved, but overall I'm agreeing with you when you say "The prissy, "poor women trapped in porn" paternalism is an insult to these women."

[melody]

43. Not disagreeing ... ranting and commiserating n/t

[LoZoccolo]

57. "The average woman in the business is more replaceable than the average man in the business."

Why do the women get paid more?

[Cirque du So-What]

20. Immoral? No.

But I believe it's symptomatic of underlying psychological problems when it substitutes for interaction with other human beings.

[xchrom]

21. no. nt

[pretzel4gore]

22. the Victorians bathed with b/suits on...

since nudity was beneath their dignity. It's a known fact that everyone, even the most tight assed, are turned on by visions of themselves in mirrors (i think it was this that po'ed the 50 era 'father knows best' crowd about Kinsey's findings...it followed that masturbation being 'same sex' put the spotlight on them, made them as guilty of 'same sex attractions' as, say, Liberace, which thus caused all the calisthetics involving denial etc))
To lie is better then to admit to human nature....
Porn is ok, but really 2nd rate compared to a real live sheep...i mean lady! What is truly immoral is the big deal made out of common sin- after all, even the pope jerked off. What is REALLY immoral is pretending it's somehow deviance that a few of any crowd are gay, as designed by god, their god! And what makes the immoral perversity of the hypocritical sex maniacs almost akin to war on life itself, is the politicalization of morality, as morality is defined by hypocritical monsters who probably daydream of being serial killers, of using pliers on teenagers, just like norris and lawrence bittaker used to, nudge wink! I recall a program about 'flatulence' once on tv where an elderly english woman stated that 'ladies don't fart' meaning she was innocent of having human form. That was the Docetist view (which said Jesus only looked human, but never 'went to the b/room' for example etc) which then provoked Arianism etc etc.
As you can see, the question about porn 'immorality' eventually led to bloodshed when the entire populace thought about it, and the bloodshed continues to this day.... and notice who it is tries to damn sexuality- while making vast fortunes selling the porn? I wish the people would connect them dots, for once, and shut the hypocrites up forever....

[Kazak]

24. Our whole culture is degrading to women...

There's a huge gender inequity, our entire civilization is predicated on it, so it should come as no surprise to see it manifest in this way.

[EV_Ares]

26. No, its not, in fact, the Bible doesn't even prohibit porn. The Bible

has plently of raunchy sex in it if you know where to look. And they were always begatting each other and raping virgins as commanded by God. But the VCR and DVD had not been invented.

If it disturbs your life and damages health, relationships, finances, people you hang around with, etc. If your life is crumbling because you can't get enough....then it's too much porn you are watching. On the other hand, is watching gorey slasher movies, or war flicks BETTER? The porn I've seen is often quite beautiful, the people are nice to each other, don't smoke, aren't shooting drugs, or each other, and seem to be enjoying themselves tremendously.

Other than all that, as they always say, its in the eye of the beholder, what plays in NY or CA may be offensive to those in KS.

[Snarkoleptic]

27. One persons art is another persons pornography.

Not immoral so long as it's between consenting adults.

[TheMightyFavog]

29. I'm fine with porn so long as....

1. All parties involved are willing, consenting adults.

2. Said willing and consulting adults are in a proper state of mind for giving their full legal consent. (i.e. no getting them to sign releases when they are drunk/stoned/tweaking like that scumbag who runs the Girls Gone Wild franchise does.)

3. All parties involved recieve fair compensation for their work.

4. All parties involved do their best to prevent the spread of sexually transmitted diseases.

[coriolis]

30. I dunno, never could afford to buy a pornograph.

;-)

[TheMightyFavog]

33. Pornograph = Computer with internet connection.

End of Line.

[varkam]

74. Lol!

Thanks for the laugh!

:rofl:

[mitchum]

34. NO

[Iris]

35. I'm not a big porn proponent, but the link you have is part of an ad to sell internet filters

so I'm not sure the information there can be fully trusted.


I think most porn is gross and have a lot of questions about how it affects sexual relationships between real people (may be positive, may be negative), but I'm more opposed to internet filters than I am to porn in general.

[Warpy]

37. Some is degrading to women. Some is violence to children.

As for erotica, which is what the rest of it is, it doesn't do a thing for me, but I don't get to make the rules for anybody else.

Porn that is produced without harming women or children is ethically neutral, IMO. I don't think less of friends who enjoy it. I just don't share that enjoyment.

[Cerridwen]

38. Define "pornography", please.

I notice you and most who have responded so far assume you each have the same definition of what constitutes "pornography." Do you think that's true; that everyone has the same definition?

Do you mean hetero? Gay? Are children involved? Group sex? Animals? Machines? Snuff films? Video of people being raped? BDSM? Are drugs involved? Torture? What are the criteria?

I think it would be difficult to debate and/or discuss a topic if the topic is not well-defined. One of the reasons there are so many opinions about porn is because there are so many definitions of porn. Shouldn't you try to agree on a definition before deciding if it's "moral" or not?

[VotesForWomen]

83. exactly; until that's done, this thread is meaningless. n t

[debbierlus]

39. I think Porn can be more harmful then people want to admit

I think men often turn to easily available sexual images and it hurts their wives. I know several women whose husbands/boyfriends watch porn and it is enormously painful for their wives. And, it affects mens ability as real life lovers. They think the posed positioning for male visual stimulation is what women actually want.

Also, for how heavly porn is defended by otherwise sane individuals, I know no one who would want any woman THEY love to participate in it. And, if a behavior is something you wouldn't want the woman you love participating in, it is a behavior that likely isn't good for any woman. As long as it is some stranger degrading herself and begging with her body, then it is just fine?

I think that because so many people like it, they tend to dismiss the reality of pornography. Some going so far as to say it empowers women...HA! As a woman in her late 30s, and a mom of a teenage girl, I can tell you that young women in their late teens don't have that strong a sense of self and empowerment, and women engaging in this behavior so young aren't in any kind of strong psychological place to be participating in the porn industry.

[Iris]

48. I think this is one of the best posts on this subject I've seen here.

Nicely put.

[pitohui]

51. that's a ridiculous standard

you say -- if a behavior is something you wouldn't want the woman you love participating in, it is a behavior that likely isn't good for any woman.

no one i know wants to be a garbage pickup person nor do they want anyone they love to be a garbage pickup person...yet getting the garbage picked up is a good and valuable thing to get done in our society

no one i know wants to be a tomato picker nor do they want those they love stuck in that job...yet getting the tomatoes picked is a good and valuable thing to get done

no i wouldn't want to be a porn star nor would i want my husband to be a porn star it doesn't mean that it isn't a good thing to get done

there's a place for masturbation, which is what porn is mostly about, and there's a place for some fun stimulation for couples (or more than couples, who cares?) which porn is sometimes about -- i don't see the harm in it as long as it's the usual consenting adults in full possession of their own heads (getting people stoned or drunk to agree to be filmed is, i'll agree, dirty pool)

in the real world, only a minority of people can have "high status" jobs, and i'll agree that porn star is pretty low status but so is tomato picker, so is janitor, so are lots of jobs -- it doesn't mean these jobs are bad and shouldn't be done -- it only means that we have a very classist society which gets off on looking down on those few who can't be donald trump and bill gates

[KG]

40. no.

the recording of a sex act itself cant really be judge as a moral issue.

the morality of sex acts being recorded is another issue entirely.

[Marr]

41. I always think it's funny that some people can shout "misogynist" or "sexist", then

argue that grown women need to be protected because they're just so gullible and stupid.

These are adults, and they can think and act for themselves.

[Ian David]

47. Actually, most of them can't act. n/t

[ensho]

42. its not healthy or natural - it is a construct

nt

[pitohui]

53. wearing clothes ain't healthy and natural, it is a construct

but for the love of god don't use that as an excuse to get everybody walking around nekkid

we live in a civilization, which means we live in a construct

if you think that is bad, you will have to prove it to me, life in the neo lithic was what, average life span about 35 for women? i don't think i like nature's plan so much for me, i think we can and should do better than "natural"

[ensho]

88. what does being naked have to do with it? or the neo lithic life span of women?

pornography is a business

[Regret My New Name]

80. Actually, I think being naked is about as natural as it gets....

[Vidar]

44. Nope, not in general.

[treestar]

45. Yes

But I do not think it is illegal.

[dorkulon]

46. Only the good stuff.

:hide:

[Regret My New Name]

81. That involves cottage cheese, paste and a blow dryer....

Ohhh, and a pumpkin.

[rucky]

52. Only if it's done right. n/t

[hyphenate]

54. Adults only

is best.

I've heard some women in the porn industry say they are more liberated than most, and their point of view is interesting. I'm talking about women who are in the online business, and who decide to become involved in the porn industry early and are able to carve out a niche for themselves.

These women say

1) They can decide how much they want to show or how much they want to do;

2) They are not easily recognized in real life, and can therefore pretty much do anything they want, including being a parent if that's their choice;

3) Since screen names are used, their real identities are fairly safe;

4) Whether they choose to engage in any sexual act, they are at liberty to do what is comfortable.



I think that some people get prostitution and pornography somewhat mixed up, myself included at times, but to my way of understanding, pornography is the explicit display of genitals and or sexual intercourse in a format which is available to other people. Porn magazines have been doing it for a very long time, and porn on the web has long caught up the print media, and overshadowed it.

Funnily enough, I have amused myself watching some parents trying to keep their children safe from online "sex" but know that for the most part, tween and teen boys, and some girls as well, know far more about the internet than I ever will, and know lots and lots of locations where sex and/or nudes pop up quite often. There are websites that cater to network security, illegal software, and all other kinds of such things which are supported mainly by affiliation with pornography sites. Thus, a trip to one of these sites will yield popup windows with invitations to their sites, and something I doubt many tweens or teens will likely forgo.

As far as women in general are concerned, I can attest that there are times when a good porn site can keep us from killing the men in our lives. It's been said that we (females) can be badder than any man could ever imagine, and I believe that is a good sign. :)

[Ian David]

55. When viewed in its entirety, it has educational, sociological and scientific value.

At least, that's what this lady says...

[ccharles000]

56. As long as everybody is a consenting adult.

I don't care what people look at to get off.

[Anarchy in Detroit]

58. Porn rocks

"Wah wah wah it's chauvanistic!"

So some chick who agrees to let some mutant blow a load on her face for pay is our (men's) fault? What the hell?
Where does her role in this whole deal begin? Oh yeah when she signed the contract for the film. Fuck you feminazis.

Porn would be chauvanistic if say, a gang load of Japanese men rode up in a convertible and lassoed a girl off the street and forced her to do it. But thats not how it works is it?

Christ even Roman soldiers had porn. Its about as normal, and right, as it gets.

[VOX]

86. "Fuck you feminazis"???? LIMBAUGH MUCH?

Enjoy your stay, it'll be short and merry.

[Fox Mulder]

60. Why would anyone even ask that question on a liberal website?

Porn is NOT immoral if it's between consenting adults.

Hell, it's not immoral if an adult is doing it himself/herself.

[ismnotwasm]

61. No

Just a typical set of symptoms, and one of the most severe, of our fucked up patriarchy. Morality, as it's commonly perceived, as in behavior "between consenting adults" isn't what porn represents.

[alfredo]

63. If it was moral, nobody would watch it.

[rebecca_herman]

64. Yes and no

It is against my personal morals for how I wish to live my own life, but it is not my decision what other adults wish to participate in or view. However, I don't consider it a particularly "positive" thing.

[MiniMe]

65. As long as children aren't involved and the participants are willing, I have no problem with it

Anything with kids in it is just wrong, wrong, wrong.

[VOX]

66. The Abu Ghraib photos are examples of right-wing pornography, which I find highly immoral...

And that's according to my liberal, common-sense criteria -- IMO, the photos that document the behavior at Abu Ghraib reveal a profound cruelty, and a deeply twisted, murderous insensitivity to -- even a delight in -- inflicting pain and suffering on fellow human beings.

However, both "pornography" and "immoral" are both extremely subjective concepts -- amorphous and difficult to define.

Beyond some obvious points (i.e., snuff films, torture, children, etc.), you'd be hard-pressed to find 10 people who would agree upon what exactly constituted "pornography," and what specifically defines "immoral."

[Jamastiene]

70. Nope.

As long as all participants are consenting adults, it's fine. I do NOT agree with child porn or bestiality, but just plain old human on human (or human on human on several other humans) adult porn is fine with me. Degrading to women? Our society is degrading to women. Why else do lots of women turn to stripping, porn, and prostitution? They do it to make as much as the men. It's the only way they can. The problem is with our society, not sex on videotape. It goes right back to the argument that art reflects culture as opposed to culture reflecting art. Think about it. There never could have been gangster rap if gangsters hadn't existed beforehand. That's the simple answer, although it can be complicated if you really dig beneath the surface.

[oedura]

72. No.

As longer as nobody is forced into anything, I see nothing immoral about it whatsoever.

I'd pity the anti-porn crusaders if they didn't annoy me so much. Good luck abolishing something that's been part of every culture since the dawn of recorded history.

[varkam]

73. Well, speaking as someone who has had an active addiction with pornography...

I say no. I do not think that pornography is something that is globally immoral, though I do think that it can become something that can cause individuals grave emotional, physical, and financial consequences (speaking from experience, here). I know that it is, at least in a way, unfashionable to assert that porn addiction has consequences - much less serious ones - but it's true. Loss of relationships, emotional and physical isolation, cognitive distortions, time lost, and (if you really want to go off the deep end) legal consequences.

All of this is not to say that people cannot use pornography safely and within the context of a healthy relationship. I suppose that they can, although I was never able to do this.

One final thought, though: I do think that issues surrounding sexual addiction and pornography are going to become, if not already, the elephant in the room. Unlike addiction to alcohol or drugs, there are few outward signs that family or friends can see that show exactly what kind of struggle one is going through. I think that's because it's something typically done in private, behind closed doors, without anyone telling you how much is too much, or how far is too far.

At least, that's my .02.

[Regret My New Name]

76. Dancing leads to pornography therefore porn must be immoral.

Or something like that... ;) :grouporgy: :grouphug:

[EFerrari]

77. War is immoral. Hunger is immoral. Homelessness is immoral.

Pornography? :wtf:

[leftofthedial]

78. it can be coercive, which is immoral

if all are consenting adults, it is healthy and natural.

Like lots of good things (food, drink, computers . . .), it also can become addictive and destructive, which is not good. But that is a personality artifact, not the fault of pornography.

[Norwood]

82. Not at all

If two consenting adults wish to have sex on film then hey go for it!

[Indi Guy]

84. Great question...

Porn is in the eye of the beholder.

I enjoy sensative & genuine interaction. I'm glad I've never been videod (what I was feeling as a man could have easily been played as porn).

[and-justice-for-all]

85. There is nothing immoral about SEX....

as long as it is between consenting adults.

LONG LIVE PORN!!

[baby_mouse]

89. No, and I can't understand why other people do at ALL. NT