Once and for all, can we gather the facts together on "a christian nation"?

[SemiCharmedQuark]

For the tenth time someone defending the "In God We Trust" Indiana plate has referred to our founding fathers and our "christian nation". Every site I point people to on this is shot down as biased by my conservative acquaintances. Can someone please point me at a rock solid site I can use to finally end this nonsense? I'm sick of it. The latest claim is that Ben Franklin accepted Christianity on his deathbed and renounced everything else. I have never heard that. Please help.

[catnhatnh]

1. My best bet is that the only thing Ben Franklin regretted on his deathbed...

...was the lack of lively company.

[Warren DeMontague]

3. Well, the fundy nutjobs sure aren't going to tell you that.

They aren't comfortable with their own bodies, genitals, or natural functions- they're sure as shit not gonna want to think about kindly old Ben Franklin (noo! not the lightning man!) getting all nasty and freaky-deaky.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

4. LOL

Thanks for the laugh.

[Warren DeMontague]

2. The bottom line is, it would have been the path of least resistance for the FF to make Christianity

the official religion of the USA.

They didn't. In fact, they bent over backwards to ENSURE that NO RELIGION WAS GIVEN ANY SPECIAL STATUS.

Tell whatever numbnuts you're arguing with to come back when they find the word "God" in the Constitution (or as Bush calls it, "some damn piece of paper") ... Three points if they can find the word "Jesus".

[SemiCharmedQuark]

5. I suspect it's more of an afterthought.

If Franklin lived NOW, when his historical importance would not already be established, he would be a long haired godless commie. However, since his importance is already known, the hunt is on to identify with him.

[Warren DeMontague]

7. Not to mention Jefferson-- talk about a hippie.

Jefferson fuckin' Airplane, more like!

[sutz12]

6. There ain't a site on the internets you can point to..

Sorry, but in their minds, anything that doesn't agree with them is biased. Facts are not facts unless they are pre-screened to agree with their faith-based version of reality. They have bought in to their own propaganda so deeply that there is no hope.

:shrug:

[Warren DeMontague]

8. There may not be a site on the 'internets' that will convince 'em. But heres a few good ones anyway:

http://nobeliefs.com/Tripoli.htm

http://monotheism.us/

http://candst.tripod.com/tnppage/qjeffson.htm

http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/quotes/jefferson.htm

http://nobeliefs.com/jefferson.htm

[hfojvt]

10. one of those sites says that

James Madison was not religious in any conventional sense.
This link seems to disprove that:
http://www.churchstatelaw.com/historicalmaterials/8_6_2_5.asp

Franklin is quoted as a scoffer or doubter and yet I remember that his in his autobiography that he stated 1) that he never doubted the basics of religion, 2) he considered churches to be beneficial, and 3) he always gave some money to help found a church when asked.

This site provides early documents

http://www.churchstatelaw.com/historicalmaterials/

such as the above and the following.

http://www.churchstatelaw.com/historicalmaterials/8_6_2_5.asp

"Whereas it is the duty of all nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey His will, to be grateful for His benefits, and humbly to implore His protection and favor; and



Whereas both Houses of Congress have, by their joint committee, requested me to recommend to the people of the United States a day of public thanksgiving and prayer, to be observed by acknowledging with grateful hearts the many and signal favors of Almighty God, especially by affording them an opportunity peaceably to establish a form of government for their safety and happiness:"

Not George W, but George Washington.

[Warren DeMontague]

14. Sorry. No sale.

You've got one site, one thing Madison wrote.. Oh, and something you "remember" about Franklin's biography.

Here's some James Madison, for you:

http://www.positiveatheism.org/writ/founding.htm#MYTHING

"What influence in fact have Christian ecclesiastical establishments had on civil society? In many instances they have been upholding the thrones of political tyranny. In no instance have they been seen as the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wished to subvert the public liberty have found in the clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate liberty, does not need the clergy." Madison objected to state-supported chaplains in Congress and to the exemption of churches from taxation. He wrote: "Religion and government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together."

And nothing being promulgated by the put-Jesus-in-government pinheads addresses one SINGLE EXTREMELY SALIENT POINT: Given that the early United States WAS a land with an overwhelmingly Christian population, and particularly if one accepts the blather of the right-wing theocrats who insist that the Founding Fathers were incredibly pious, devout, sectarian church-going Christians who thought nothing was more splendid than firmly and enthusiastically wedding civic government to organized religion... then obviously the PATH OF LEAST RESISTANCE would have been to DECREE THAT THIS IS AN OFFICIALLY CHRISTIAN NATION IN THE UNITED STATES CONSTITUTION.

So, why, oh why, oh why, much to the chagrin of the hand-wringing, theocratic nutjob right, didn't they FUCKING DO THAT? Where is the word "God" in the United States Constitution? Where is the word "Jesus"? You honestly believe that James Madison thought it would be better to telegraph his intentions about the need for religion in government in an speech about the Thanksgiving Holiday, than he would in the god-damn constitution?

Yeah. Talk about a stretch.

Here's another link:

http://www.rationalrevolution.net/articles/history_of_the_separation_of_chu.htm

[papau]

19. atheist proselytizing again? Based on conflating state doesn't support a given religion into no

religion is best? I wonder if the atheist conjecture that a lot of proselytizing comes from people who are insecure of their Faith is true - about atheism.

Sorry but the founding fathers, in vast majority, were indeed not atheists - no matter how many times it is asserted one can not make it true.

But the basic point, that our now being 9 out of 10 Christian does not justify making the State into a part of any religion, is, in my opinion, a valid one for many reasons.


I doubt a Democratic Party support web site needs a constant reminder that their are atheist sites on the web like "nobelief" - not that that posting those sites is bad, or that the sites are themselves "bad" (albeit they are inaccurate quite often - but that is another topic for another thread) - it is just that promoting atheism is not part of the Democratic Party goals at this time and indeed, as the Democratic Party promotes no given belief system over any other, it never will be.

[Warren DeMontague]

22. Are you responding to me?

Because if so, I don't think you read what I wrote. My point wasn't that a Democratic Party support site needs a constant reminder that "their" are atheist sites on the web like "nobelief"- uh, that happens to be a SOURCE with material relevant to the discussion.

I *do* know that there are certain PEOPLE of belief, here and elsewhere, who claim to be "fine" with atheists and atheism- just so long as the atheists keep their mouths good and shut, and don't say any bigoted, Christian-bashing things like... "I don't believe in God".

You know, out loud.

But that's neither here, nor there. I guess, in your mind, referencing a good long list of material from the founding fathers backing up the separation of Church and State is permissible as long as that material doesn't come from a site full of "those atheists". Because you know, "we" don't want to be overly associated with "those people".

Now, lets break down your post further:


atheist proselytizing again? Based on conflating state doesn't support a given religion into no
religion is best? I wonder if the atheist conjecture that a lot of proselytizing comes from people who are insecure of their Faith is true - about atheism.

Please show me where I engaged in one solitary smidgen of anything remotely resembling "atheist proselytizing" in this thread, which is, again, about the separation of church and state. At least, I think that's what this is trying to say. Your meaning and sentence structure are hard to grasp, to say the least.

Sorry but the founding fathers, in vast majority, were indeed not atheists - no matter how many times it is asserted one can not make it true.

I guess you must have missed it upthread, where I said exactly the same thing. The majority of them were religious, in one sense or another, and that plus the realities of the era in which they lived make it all the more remarkable -and unambiguously deliberate- that the Constitution is a WHOLLY SECULAR DOCUMENT.

it is just that promoting atheism is not part of the Democratic Party goals at this time and indeed, as the Democratic Party promotes no given belief system over any other, it never will be.

I don't want the Democratic Party to "promote atheism". What I want is for Government to get out of the religion promoting business, and I want it to get out of the business of fucking with science and the teaching of science, too. Now don't try to tell me that science is "just another belief system", either. If scientific fact- like the FACT that we evolved from common ancestors with every other living thing on this planet over the FACTUAL course of the 4.7 Billion year history of the Earth- if those facts and the teaching of those FACTS conflicts with the religious beliefs of some, that's too damn bad- they don't get to edit reality for millions of public school kids just because they don't like it. But that is in no way "promoting atheism"- an activity which strikes me as incredibly difficult to do, because it seems to me that hardly any five religious people can agree on what the words "God", or "Goddess", or "Gods" mean, so to "promote atheism" you'd first have to nail down what exactly people are supposed to NOT be believing in.

But I digress. The thread is about religion in government, and that's why references to the FF are relevant, whether or not they come from a source you don't like.

[papau]

24. Are you even trying to respond to the thread's topic - Franklin's religion - deism?

I guess you don't agree much of the information from atheist sites is crap, and you do not see that posting links to it is proselytizing - well we all have our belief systems - don't we?
========================================================
The vast majority of the ff's were deist - as was Franklin.

The original post that started this thread: ..."our "christian nation". Every site I point people to on this is shot down as biased by my conservative acquaintances. Can someone please point me at a rock solid site I can use to finally end this nonsense? I'm sick of it. The latest claim is that Ben Franklin accepted Christianity on his deathbed and renounced everything else. I have never heard that. Please help."

So has anyone note Franklin's letter:

"(I have) some Doubts as to his divinity; tho' it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and I think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an Opportunity of knowing the Truth with less Trouble"


OR from beliefnet - which does both source its material and not spin it (but I guess that is your belief about "nobelief" - eh - since many have shown nobelief to spin, the rational must see belief in "nobelief" as indeed a "belief" :-) )
http://www.beliefnet.com/story/129/story_12914_3.html

....His study of nature, he said, convinced him that God created the universe and was infinitely wise, good, and powerful. He then explored four possibilities: (1) God predetermined and predestined everything that happens, eliminating all possibility of free will; (2) He left things to proceed along natural laws and the free will of His creatures, and never interferes; (3) He predestined some things and left some things to free will, but still never interferes; (4) "He sometimes interferes by His particular providence and sets aside the effects which would otherwise have been produced by any of the above causes."

Franklin ended up settling on the fourth option, but not because he could prove it; instead, it resulted from a process of elimination and a sense of which belief would be most useful for people to hold....


It would be vain, he wrote, for any person to insist that "all the doctrines he holds are true and all he rejects are false." The same could be said of the opinions of different religions as well. . They should be evaluated, the young pragmatist said, by their utility: "I think opinions should be judged by their influences and effects; and if a man holds none that tend to make him less virtuous or more vicious, it may be concluded that he holds none that are dangerous, which I hope is the case with me." He had little use for the doctrinal distinctions his mother worried about. "I think vital religion has always suffered when orthodoxy is more regarded than virtue. And the Scripture assures me that at the last day we shall not be examined by what we thought, but what we did... that we did good to our fellow creatures. See Matthew 26(he means 25)."

=======================================================================

Government getting out of religion is the goal of the Democratic Party as I understand the platform. Which why I would think we both support that party (I of course only know that I am active in the Party - I am assuming that you are also).

But until atheists decide to not make a General Discussion thread request for religious information into a diatribe against Fundamentalist beliefs which is immediately then used to slime religion in general, I'll point out the fact that they are being Evangelical and proselytizing, just like the fundi's that they complain about.

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[papau]

35. Do you really claim a DU right to slime the religious on DU? We agree that the

USA was not founded as a Christian nation - but why the sliming?

I certainly do not have the power to stop you from doing so on DU (besides you are just educating us and using this thread on Ben Franklin's religious beliefs as an opportunity to give others the opportunity to grow and become as wise as yourself about how ridiculous - right?).

If you want to attack me rather than discuss WHY every thread must have dumps on the religious - - fine. So what else is new on DU.

We can call each other bigots and worse - but that may actually be a rule on DU against those types of posts. There is certainly does not appear to be a rule on DU against sliming the religious.

S0 - Christian nation? - nope Indeed we agree on that.

Discussion of Ben Franklin - well, I have a post on the thread on that - so I'll quit this thread as a poster.

But I will check back to see if you ever do post on old Ben and his religious thoughts.

[Warren DeMontague]

41. Me: "Show me a single instance where I've slimed religion-in-general, or the religious"

You: "Why are you claiming a right to slime the religious on DU?"

I think we need a translator, buddy.

:crazy:

[papau]

44. Try reading your links n/t

n/t

[Warren DeMontague]

45. I explained the context of the links posted.

Namely, Founding Fathers quotes and general information debunking the right-wing "Christian nation" myth (remember? The OP?)

And that wasn't what you said- that you didn't like the material on some of the linked sites... you said that "religion bashing" and "sliming" was done HERE. By "The Atheists on DU". More specifically, by ME. Um, that's not the same thing. I'll ask you again: Find something *I* said that was a "slime" on religion and religious-people-in-general (not fundamentalist right wing Christians, because they're NOT one and the same) and then, perhaps, I will listen to your complaints.

As it is, about those links: Those happen to be some of the best sources for this information that are available. If "atheist groups" are the ones doing a great deal of the leg work when it comes to defending the United States Constitution and some of the principles -like the separation of Church and State- that this nation was founded on, is that my fault? And more importantly, what can you take away from that?

I'll tell you what you can take away from that: that many outspoken atheists are both knowledgeable about History AND Good, patriotic Americans. :patriot:

[papau]

46. I stand corrected as to the Positive atheism site linked - it has some bad

data - but it is sourced - and the tone is one that I wish all would have.

From Positive atheism:
"We will let people know we are atheists (we “come out of the closet,” so to speak), and we will explain to those people who seem to misunderstand that an atheist is usually someone who simply lacks a god belief, who simply remains unconvinced by the god claims. We will volunteer strong assertions as to the benefits of state-church separation, even going so far as to argue that state neutrality toward religion greatly benefits all religion. We will forcefully challenge anybody and any institution that seeks to harm us (or relegate us to second-class citizenship) because of our atheism. And we will insist upon truthfulness in all affairs.

But we try to wait for a direct intrusion from a theist before engaging in a private discussion or a public argument about the existence of gods or the lack thereof. We respect private religion, but religion stops being private the moment someone tries to entice or coerce or force their religious ideas upon others. Think of it as being invited or think of them as asking for it! Unless someone tries to convince us of the “truthfulness” of their religious beliefs, we try to leave them alone."


Your point that many outspoken atheists are both knowledgeable about History AND Good, patriotic Americans is one that I usually make - and a point that I obviously need to make clearer in my postings. I responded to your suggestion of linking to "nobelief" based on my experience with both the data at that site and the (generalization again - of course)tone on DU of people using that site - and did not note you were obviously "not in your face" in that post.

Then I ran into your "I *do* know that there are certain PEOPLE of belief, here and elsewhere, who claim to be "fine" with atheists and atheism- just so long as the atheists keep their mouths good and shut, and don't say any bigoted, Christian-bashing things like... "I don't believe in God".

You know, out loud. "

And that wording was read by me as confirming the initial thought that a person quoting "nobelief" was part of the "in your face evangelical proselytizing group of atheists that try to spit in your face, kick you in the crotch, and then claim victim status when you respond" that I have responded to over the last few years.

Reviewing your posts does indeed not support that conclusion. My error - and I am sorry I made that error.

[Warren DeMontague]

47. No prob. I apologize, too, if my part came off as 'in your face'. I don't spend a lot of time at

'nobelief', I was just looking for reference material. I have come across folks here who don't seem all that used to atheists- 'out' atheists, atheists who openly state their nonbelief; I think part of that has to do with the fact that, in this country, in many places and situations -work or social- atheists may not feel terribly comfortable being up front that they're not religious.

That was the source of my point, there.

That said, it's certainly not anywhere in my realm of interest to try to 'convert' anyone to my way of thinking or my belief system, whatever that may be. I'm really someone who feels that part of the fun in existence is that we all get to work it out for ourselves, and my answers may not work for you. Nor do I look down on people who believe in "God" or are religious. I -do- have a problem with right-wingers and fundamentalists of various faiths who feel the need to use governmental structures to impose their religion on everyone else, and when religious belief starts interfering with science, then I tend to get mad.

Honestly, I wouldn't even categorize myself as an "Atheist", per se, except for purposes of the lowest-chakra political debate in this country, and I don't believe in anything resembling the god of the major western monotheisms. I'm more of a Taoist-Discordian-Agnostic-Metaphysical Free Agent. I certainly don't believe I have any great extra-clear vision as to what the hell is really going on.

I appreciate your re-reviewing of this exchange. I've tried to do that, too, and again I apologize where my posts came out excessively harsh at you. In retrospect, it wasn't deserved. There's an individual in this thread I've butted heads with previously over issues such as mandatory school prayer, something which DU is in near-universal agreement on as being a bad and unconstitutional thing- and I've been in a fairly foul mood these past few days because I was a putz and did something extremely painful to my foot. No excuse, but it's made me even more ornery than usual.

Peace.

[hfojvt]

27. oh ye of little faith

Google confirms that my memory is still good and my integrity unbesmirched in this case

http://www.earlyamerica.com/lives/franklin/chapt8/

"I had been religiously educated as a Presbyterian; and tho' some of the dogmas of that persuasion, such as the eternal decrees of God, election, reprobation, etc., appeared to me unintelligible, others doubtful, and I early absented myself from the public assemblies of the sect, Sunday being my studying day, I never was without some religious principles. I never doubted, for instance, the existence of the Deity; that he made the world, and govern'd it by his Providence; that the most acceptable service of God was the doing good to man; that our souls are immortal; and that all crime will be punished, and virtue rewarded, either here or hereafter. These I esteem'd the essentials of every religion; and, being to be found in all the religions we had in our country, I respected them all, tho' with different degrees of respect, as I found them more or less mix'd with other articles, which, without any tendency to inspire, promote, or confirm morality, serv'd principally to divide us, and make us unfriendly to one another. This respect to all, with an opinion that the worst had some good effects, induc'd me to avoid all discourse that might tend to lessen the good opinion another might have of his own religion; and as our province increas'd in people, and new places of worship were continually wanted, and generally erected by voluntary contributions, my mite for such purpose, whatever might be the sect, was never refused."

[Warren DeMontague]

29. It wouldn't matter if every single one of the founding fathers was a spaghetti monster worshiper.

The point is, they DELIBERATELY left the Spaghetti Monster- and all other deities- out of the U.S. Constitution.

[johnaries]

31. So, he rejected Christianity but not God.

Also notice in your quote Washington referred to God but not Jesus.

Lots of people believe in a God who aren't Christian.

Like, for instance, the Founding Fathers.

[hfojvt]

33. a rose by any other name

Was Jesus concerned with people honoring his name, or following his teachings? and not even his teachings as much as the teachings of Moses, Elijah, and deutero-Isaiah.

"Believers, Jews, Sabaeans, and Christians - whoever believes in God and the Last Day and does what is right - shall have nothing to fear or regret." Koran 5: 69

"Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world." James 1: 27

"See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction. For I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws; then you will live and increase, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land you are entering to possess." Deuteronomy 30: 25

Islam, Judaism, Christianity. Rather than rejecting them, I would say Franklin accepted their heart, their most basic principles. No preacher or prophet should ask for anything more.

[Warren DeMontague]

42. So then why do we need religion in government, or prayer in public schools? nt

[lligrd]

9. Turn It Right Back To Jesus

And ask them where it shows that Jesus had any interest in the government at all.

[sandnsea]

11. Jamestown

Had nothing to do with religion.

http://www.apva.org/history/index.html

Plymouth was 13 years later. As many colonies were founded for economic gain as were founded for religious reasons.

[progdonkey]

12. As a rule of thumb...

"deathbed confessions" are always full of shit. Whether it's Darwin, Franklin, Ingersoll, Steve Irwin (yes, a "Christian" group actually spread a rumor after his death that he had just prior to his death become born again--I'm just mentioning it to show how desperate and vile these sorts of people are), it doesn't matter.

Certainly there are the random people here and there who decide to "return to the Fold" before they die, but people who are such iconic figures as Darwin et al who have gone against the established heterodoxy don't suddenly decide after 75 years of apostasy that "Hmm, maybe I've been wrong. Call the priest!!!"

As far as this being a "Christian Nation," ask them to show you where in either the Declaration or the Constitution (hell, even the Articles of Confederation) there is a single mention of Jesus Christ, and ask them if they were themselves about to start a "Christian Nation," would they completely forget to mention Jesus even once? (Be prepared for them to say that "In the Year of Our Lord" counts as a mention of Jesus--these idiots have actually said that on news programs; that's how desperate they are to find something.)

[melody]

13. If there is only one truly significant founding father, it was John Adams

Have them go read his writings ... all thoughts about this being a "Christian nation" will be immediately put to rest.

I have some at my site -- http://johnadamsweb.com

Here are a couple of my favorites -- the first, short and to the point, and the second speaking to his overall opinion:

"This nation of ours was not founded on Christian principles."

"The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. Nowhere in the Gospels do we find a precept for Creeds, Confessions, Oaths, Doctrines, and whole carloads of other foolish trumpery that we find in Christianity."

Then if you really want to watch them swallow their tongue send them over to the website of President Adams' church (where he and Abigail are buried): http://www.ufpc.org/

Here are some recent sermon topics:

Standing on the Side of Love and Equality
Where Does Our Religious Liberalism Come From?
Sex, Lies and the Bible
Selma Revisited
Democracy Is A Spiritual Practice

And one from last year: The Sanctity of Gay Marriage

That should really mess up any fundie.

[papau]

21. Quincy has a lovely Unitarian Church - and many intellectuals in 1776 thought Unitarian would

be the predominant flavor of Christianity back then.

I love going to Unitarian Churches because the folks are very liberal, and the discussion groups quite good - but just 50 years ago the 200,000 that are Unitarian did not have such a large percentage of atheists as it does today (it seems to vary Church by Church, in my experience, from a minimum of 20% to a more normal 35 to 40% but in some places feels like over 50 %).

One should note the founding fathers opinions changed from letter to letter over time and over mood changes. But the constant is to keep the state from sponsoring any religion.

[hfojvt]

25. Not sure if that is true about the 'state'

I was kinda shocked to learn that several states had state religions for many years after the Constitution was ratified. The first amendment reads "Congress shall make no law ...." which was not meant to restrict state legislatures. Madison spoke out against Viginia's state church, but interestingly enough, his argument did not mention that it was unconstitutional. Virginia's church was disestablished democratically by the state legislature, not autocratically by SCOTUS. This argument about 'founding father's' though seems to want to reduce their number, so that one or two (or fifteen) atheists and deists can out-vote, or matter more, than the rest of the members of the Constitutional Convention.

[papau]

34. I do recall the Virginia battle to end the state religion - States Rights were even bigger in the

beginning than they are now - and the USSC in the beginning did not claim all that much power.

It is funny how various ff's do not seem to count in the discussion about whether the ff's were religious, and if religious, Christian.

The Jewish fellow that signed our founding documents is forgotten, as is the fact that most were Freemasons. Freemasonry played a big part in the American Revolution, but the one main requirement was a belief in God. Without that one could not join. America's most famous Freemason was also a Deist, George Washington, and his wife and daughters were pious Christians. Not only did he allow Universalists to serve in his army, he had Jewish and Deists officers as well along with Enlightened Christians. In the Freemason lodges Protestants, Jews, Deists, Unitarians, and all who believed in God, liberty, etc. joined together. Half the signers of the Constitution were Freemasons as was Francis Scott Key who wrote our National Anthem and Frances Bellamy who wrote the Pledge of Allegiance. However, not all Deists were Freemasons with Thomas Jefferson as one example.

Some famous Freemasons - believers in God - were Signers (from well sourced research by one Mr. Sullivan on the web) of the Constitution of the United States:

Abraham Baldwin James McHenry
Gunning Bedford Jr. James Madison
John Blair Alexander Martin
William Blount Robert Morris
David Brearley William Paterson
Daniel Carroll William Pierce
William Richardson Davie Charles Pinckney
Jonathan Dayton Edmund Randolph
Oliver Ellsworth George Read
Benjamin Franklin Roger Sherman
Elbridge Gerry George Walton
Refus King George Washington
John Langdon George Wythe
John Lansing Jr.


and Signers of the Declaration of Independence:

Benjamin Franklin--
Author of the book, "Fart Proudly" John Hancock
William Hooper Richard Stockton
Matthew Thornton George Walton
William Whipple

and just famous Patriots:

John Blair - 1732-1800
Benjamin Franklin - 1706-1790, statesman, diplomat, author, scientist and printer
Francis Scott Key-- Wrote our National Anthem
John Hancock - 1737-1793, merchant, politician and Revolutionary leader
Rufus King - 1755-1827, politician and diplomat
Henry Knox - 1750-1806, American Revolutionary soldier and public official
George Mason - 1725-1792, American Revolutionary statesman
James Otis - 1725-1783, Famous for "Taxation without representation is tyranny"
Thomas Paine - 1737-1809, English-born American author & Revolutionary leader
Peyton Randolph -
Paul Revere - 1735-1818, American silversmith, engraver and Revolutionary patriot
Joseph Warren -


As to Ben Franklin:

In Ben's autobiography (and repeated later in his life in a letter to Ezra Stiles):

That there is one God, who made all things. That he governs the world by his providence. That he ought to be worshiped by adoration, prayer, and thanksgiving. But that the most acceptable service of God is doing good to man. That the soul is immortal. And that God will certainly reward virtue and punish vice, either here or hereafter.

Deism to be sure - but not the the belief "God made the universe and went away" that the atheists always say. There are a few aliases for the term athiest - those that believe in separation between church and state thought we were secular humanists,m but now secular humanist since the 1950's and secular fundamentalists are terms used by athiests to describe themselves.


More on Franklin:

On June 28, 1787, Franklin made a formal motion for prayers at the Constitutional Convention. The text of the motion itself reads:

I therefore beg leave to move, That henceforth Prayers, imploring the Assistance of Heaven and its Blessing on our Deliberations, be held in this Assembly every morning before we proceed to Business, and that one or more of the Clergy of this city be requested to officiate in that Service.

This text is from Albert Henry Smyth's 1906 edition of The Writings of Benjamin Franklin, Collected and Edited with a Life and Introduction, vol. IX, page 601. Franklin preceded the actual motion with a page and a half of explanation supporting the idea.

While it is true that fter the motion, a footnote by the Constitutional Convention editor reads: "Note by Franklin.--'The convention, except for three or four persons, thought prayers unnecessary.'"

"unnecessary" but not a freedom from religion hostility that is being pushed today, and indeed certainly not an expression of the need to ban all in government public displays of faith.


Some Tom Paine quotes:

"I believe in one God, and no more; and I hope for happiness beyond this life."

"The moral duty of man consists in imitating the moral goodness and beneficence of God manifested in the creation toward all his creatures. That seeing, as we daily do, the goodness of God to all men, it is an example calling upon all men to practice the same toward each other."

"I trouble not myself about the manner of future existence. I content myself with believing, even to positive conviction, that the power that gave me existence is able to continue it in any form and manner he pleases, either with or without this body" (Age of Reason).

"I consider myself in the hands of my Creator, and that he will dispose of me after this life consistently with his justice and goodness" (Private Thoughts on a Future State)

"We believe in the existence of a God, and in the immortality of the soul."

"Were man impressed as fully and as strongly as he ought to be with the belief of a God, his moral life would be regulated by the force of that belief; he would stand in awe of God and of himself, and would not do the thing that could not be concealed from either. ... This is Deism."


And then there was John Adams:

He was a Unitarian (declaring in the Treaty of Tripoly that the USA was not a Christian nation. But what would he think of DU's atheists always bashing Christians? Well we have Adam's views of Christian basher and anti-Semitic bigot Voltaire:

of Voltaire: "How is it possible should represent the Hebrews in such a contemptible light? They are the most glorious nation that ever inhabited this Earth. The Romans and their Empire were but a Bauble in comparison of the Jews. They have given religion to three quarters of the Globe and have influenced the affairs of Mankind more, and more happily, than any other Nation ancient or modern." (I wonder if someone should post in the I/P forum the fact that John Adams embraced a Jewish homeland?).

As Alexis de Tocqueville observed, "The Americans combine notions of Christianity and of liberty so intimately in their minds, that it is impossible to conceive the one without the other."

Thomas Jefferson, raised an Anglican, certainly was not a fan of organized religion: Jefferson self-identified himself as a Unitarian, not a Deist as such. But this not a Deist says in Query XVII of in the Statute of Virginia for Religious Freedom: "The rights of conscience we never submitted, we could not submit. We are answerable for them to our God. The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg . . . . Reason and free inquiry are the only effectual agents against error." On June 25, 1819, he wrote to Ezra Stiles, "I am of a sect by myself, as far as I know." Rebecca Bowman, Monticello Research Department, August 1997. Ref. http://www.monticello.org/reports/interests/religion.html
Jefferson did once write that he would have liked to be a member of a Unitarian church, but he was not because there were no Unitarian churches in Virginia. In Jefferson's day, Unitarianism was considerably different from its present form, and there was no concept that it was a non-Christian religion - it was just a liberal Protestant denomination. Jefferson was never affiliated with any organized Deist movement, although that may fit his theological position .

James Madison (4th president/father of the Constitution) is certainly a good source of quotes for the atheist - "Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise." and "During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution." - but then some say he had deist ideas!

Ethan Allen was again more deist than anything else, saying in a book "That Jesus Christ was not God is evidence from his own words." and claiming that he was generally "denominated a Deist, the reality of which I never disputed, being conscious that I am no Christian." When Allen married Fanny Buchanan, he stopped his own wedding ceremony when the judge asked him if he promised "to live with Fanny Buchanan agreeable to the laws of God." Allen refused to answer until the judge agreed that the God referred to was the God of Nature, and the laws those "written in the great book of nature."

[melody]

39. In Adams' case, he was from Massachusetts n/t

[melody]

26. I've been there many times

It's a beautiful place filled with lovely people.

Everyone's opinions change according to mood ... the founders were human beings, after all.
John was alarmingly consistent, however. lol

[papau]

38. True - I tried in post 34 to note some facts - but w/o the Morris spin - I doubt

that facts will stop the battle, but at least they are on the thread (and my thanks to a posting by a fellow named Sullivan on the web that sourced the quotes so it was an easy look up to verify that they were correct).

[RoseMead]

15. There's always the Fugio Cent - It's connected to Franklin,too

"On 21 April 1787, the Continental Congress of the United States authorized a design for an official penny, later referred to as the Fugio cent because of its image of the sun shining down on a sundial with the caption, "Fugio" (Latin: I flee). The image and the word combine to mean "Time Flees". This coin was reportedly designed by Benjamin Franklin, and as a reminder to its holders, he put at its bottom the message, "Mind Your Business". This design had also been used on the "Continental dollar" (issued as coins of unknown real denomination, and in paper notes of different fractional denominations) in February of 1776.

Some historians believe that the word "business" was intended literally here, as Franklin was an influential and successful businessman. However, considering the full saying of "mind your own business," which would not have fit on the coin, it can just as easily be interpreted as a statement of privacy.

The reverse side of both the 1776 coins and paper notes, and the 1787 coins, bore the third motto "We Are One" (in English).

When the United States was reformed after the 1789 ratification of the 1789 Constitution, gold and silver coins bore the official motto of the new United States, E pluribus unum, taken from the also non-religious 1782 Great Seal of the United States of America.

In 1864, during the Civil War, the Union (North) introduced a 2-cent coin with the new motto "In God We Trust". In 1956, In God We Trust was mandated for all our currency. There are calls for a return to putting the original mottoes back on all American currency."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind_your_own_business

[Pushed To The Left]

16. Four words:

"No establisment of religion"! The first amendment makes it pretty clear.

[Warren DeMontague]

18. I'm at the point where two words cover just about everything I have to say

to these folks.

[melody]

28. Funny, that's pretty much it for me, too lol n/t

[Richard Steele]

17. No. Your "Conservative acquaintences" will NEVER accept the truth, no matter how obvious.

If they were ABLE to do that, they wouldn't be "conservative".

[sarcasmo]

20. Where is my Atheist plate.

Atheist start no wars.

[Charleyski]

23. You want facts? Christains read and weep ! Very good!

I write to alot of Atheist sites. This is from the Austin Athiest site to a Christain that said I was going to rot in Hell. It is long but worth it.
I know from the heart that this nation was not meant to be a Christain nation.
Linda has got the FACTS!!! Thanks Linda.
Chester Smalkowski


From: Linda (Posted Jan 31, 2007 at 3:02 am)
Reply to this message
Part II: This Has Never Been A Christian Nation:
It seems to me that this subject is very important. Many of us believe that there are those in government who are trying to make indistinct those lines separating the church from the State. Many believe that Bush's "Faith-Based initiative" is a violation of our Constitution. This issue is being debated by those who believe the right of religious liberty and the Constitution are under threat, and that the Constitution is being interpreted to read "We the Christians." - Furthermore -

Thomas Jefferson’s writings make known that he was in no way in favor of a combination of education and religion:

"Ministers of the Gospel are excluded to avoid jealousy from the other sects, were the public education committed to the ministers of a particular one; and with more reason than in the case of their exclusion from the legislative and executive functions." --Thomas Jefferson: Note to Elementary School Act, 1817. ME 17:419

"No religious reading, instruction or exercise, shall be prescribed or practiced inconsistent with the tenets of any religious sect or denomination." --Thomas Jefferson: Elementary School Act, 1817. ME 17:425

Establishments of Religion Undermine Rights "The clergy, by getting themselves established by law and ingrafted into the machine of government, have been a very formidable engine against the civil and religious rights of man." --Thomas Jefferson to Jeremiah Moor, 1800.

The Founding Fathers Were Not Christians by Steven Morris, in Free Inquiry, Fall, 1995 (If you want to complain about this article, complain to Steven Morris, who wrote it)

"The Christian right is trying to rewrite the history of the United States as part of its campaign to force its religion on others. They try to depict the founding fathers as pious Christians who wanted the United States to be a Christian nation, with laws that favored Christians and Christianity. This is patently untrue. The early presidents and patriots were generally Deists or Unitarians, believing in some form of impersonal Providence but rejecting the divinity of Jesus and the absurdities of the Old and New testaments. Thomas Paine was a pamphleteer whose manifestos encouraged the faltering spirits of the country and aided materially in winning the war of Independence: I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of...Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all." From: The Age of Reason by Thomas Paine, pp. 8,9 (Republished 1984, Prometheus Books, Buffalo, NY)

George Washington, the first president of the United States, never declared himself a Christian according to contemporary reports or in any of his voluminous correspondence. Washington Championed the cause of freedom from religious intolerance and compulsion. When John Murray (a universalist who denied the existence of hell) was invited to become an army chaplain, the other chaplains petitioned Washington for his dismissal. Instead, Washington gave him the appointment. On his deathbed, Washinton uttered no words of a religious nature and did not call for a clergyman to be in attendance. From: George Washington and Religion by Paul F. Boller Jr., pp. 16, 87, 88, 108, 113, 121, 127 (1963, Southern Methodist University Press, Dallas, TX) John Adams, the country's second president, was drawn to the study of law but faced pressure from his father to become a clergyman. He wrote that he found among the lawyers 'noble and gallant achievments" but among the clergy, the "pretended sanctity of some absolute dunces". Late in life he wrote: "Twenty times in the course of my late reading, have I been upon the point of breaking out, "This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it!" It was during Adam's administration that the Senate ratified the Treaty of Peace and Friendship, which states in Article XI that "the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion." From: The Character of John Adams by Peter Shaw, pp. 17 (1976, North Carolina Press, Chapel Hill, NC) Quoting a letter by JA to Charles Cushing Oct 19, 1756, and John Adams, A Biography in his Own Words, edited by James Peabody, p. 403 (1973, Newsweek, New York NY) Quoting letter by JA to Jefferson April 19, 1817, and in reference to the treaty, Thomas Jefferson, Passionate Pilgrim by Alf Mapp Jr., pp. 311 (1991, Madison Books, Lanham, MD) quoting letter by TJ to Dr. Benjamin Waterhouse, June, 1814. Thomas Jefferson, third president and author of the Declaration of Independence, said:"I trust that there is not a young man now living in the United States who will not die a Unitarian." He referred to the Revelation of St. John as "the ravings of a maniac" and wrote: The Christian priesthood, finding the doctrines of Christ levelled to every understanding and too plain to need explanation, saw, in the mysticisms of Plato, materials with which they might build up an artificial system which might, from its indistinctness, admit everlasting controversy, give employment for their order, and introduce it to profit, power, and pre-eminence. The doctrines which flowed from the lips of Jesus himself are within the comprehension of a child; but thousands of volumes have not yet explained the Platonisms engrafted on them: and for this obvious reason that nonsense can never be explained." From: Thomas Jefferson, an Intimate History by Fawn M. Brodie, p. 453 (1974, W.W) Norton and Co. Inc. New York, NY) Quoting a letter by TJ to Alexander Smyth Jan 17, 1825, and Thomas Jefferson, Passionate Pilgrim by Alf Mapp Jr., pp. 246 (1991, Madison Books, Lanham, MD) quoting letter by TJ to John Adams, July 5, 1814. "The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter." -- Thomas Jefferson (letter to J. Adams April 11,1823) James Madison, fourth president and father of the Constitution, was not religious in any conventional sense. "Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise." "During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution." From: The Madisons by Virginia Moore, P. 43 (1979, McGraw-Hill Co. New York, NY) quoting a letter by JM to William Bradford April 1, 1774, and James Madison, A Biography in his Own Words, edited by Joseph Gardner, p. 93, (1974, Newsweek, New York, NY) Quoting Memorial and Remonstrance against Religious Assessments by JM, June 1785. Ethan Allen, whose capture of Fort Ticonderoga while commanding the Green Mountain Boys helped inspire Congress and the country to pursue the War of Independence, said, "That Jesus Christ was not God is evidence from his own words." In the same book, Allen noted that he was generally "denominated a Deist, the reality of which I never disputed, being conscious that I am no Christian." When Allen married Fanny Buchanan, he stopped his own wedding ceremony when the judge asked him if he promised "to live with Fanny Buchanan agreeable to the laws of God." Allen refused to answer until the judge agreed that the God referred to was the God of Nature, and the laws those "written in the great book of nature." From: Religion of the American Enlightenment by G. Adolph Koch, p. 40 (1968, Thomas Crowell Co., New York, NY.) quoting preface and p. 352 of Reason, the Only Oracle of Man and A Sense of History compiled by American Heritage Press Inc., p. 103 (1985, American Heritage Press, Inc., New York, NY.)

Benjamin Franklin, delegate to the Continental Congress and the Constitutional Convention, said: As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion...has received various corrupting Changes, and I have, with most of the present dissenters in England, some doubts as to his Divinity; tho' it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the Truth with less trouble." He died a month later, and historians consider him, like so many great Americans of his time, to be a Deist, not a Christian. From: Benjamin Franklin, A Biography in his Own Words, edited by Thomas Fleming, p. 404, (1972, Newsweek, New York, NY) quoting letter by BF to Exra Stiles March 9, 1790.

Speaking of the independence of the first 13 States, H.G. Wells in his Outline of History, says: "It was a Western European civilization that had broken free from the last traces of Empire and Christendom; and it had not a vestige of monarchy left, and no State Religion... The absence of any binding religious tie is especially noteworthy. It had a number of forms of Christianity, its spirit was indubitably Christian; but, as a State document of 1796 expicity declared: 'The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion.'"

The words "In God We Trust" were not consistently on all U.S. currency until 1956, during the McCarthy Hysteria. The Treaty of Tripoli, passed by the U.S. Senate in 1797, read in part: "The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion." The treaty was written during the Washington administration, and sent to the Senate during the Adams administration. It was read aloud to the Senate, and each Senator received a printed copy. This was the 339th time that a recorded vote was required by the Senate, but only the third time a vote was unanimous (the next time was to honor George Washington). There is no record of any debate or dissension on the treaty. It was reprinted in full in three newspapers - two in Philadelphia, one in New York City. There is no record of public outcry or complaint in subsequent editions of the papers.

[papau]

36. See post 34 above - Morris may not be quite on point n/t

n/t

[AnnInLa]

32. Some click thrus on Digby's site

She says the current RELIGIOUS TREND is AWAY from religion:

http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2007/03/republican-partys-biggest-problem-by.html


"Lots of ink has been spilled about how Democrats and liberals suffer from a "religion problem" -- a perceived hostility towards Christianity and religion in general. But Pew Research Center exit poll data from the 2006 midterm elections shows the opposite."

snip


"In short, Republicans failed to be competitive among secular voters, while Democrats were at least competitive among regular churchgoers. And since the secular vote is roughly equal to the regular churchgoing vote, according to the last several national election exit polls, that means Republicans and their conservative base have a far bigger secular problem than their rivals have a religion problem."

And look at this:

"Since 1991, the adult population in the United States has grown by 15%. During that same period the number of adults who do not attend church has nearly doubled, rising from 39 million to 75 million - a 92% increase!"

[upi402]

37. Like reasononing with the Taliban

I get soooo exhausted by zealots.:silly:

[kath]

40. A while back, I posted some links on this thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=287028#288433

Some of them were quite good - there were even some very good pieces (and links) on a site belonging to a school of theology **affiliated with the Southern Baptist Convention**, which might carry some cred with your RW acquaintances (probably not though, since most of them left the "reality-based community" a long time ago. :-( )

[AshevilleGuy]

43. I have a standard response to that fatuous statement.

Whenever I hear that "The US was founded on Christian principles" I ask, "So, how are allowing human slavery and conducting genocide against the indigenous populations Christian?". Of course, you can't win an argument with people of that persuasion, but it usually shuts them up for a while until they think of some scripture to mindlessly quote, and then walk away.