Does this bother anyone else? (job posting for food quality person)

[Nikia]

http://www.jobsearch.org/seeker/jobsearch/quick?action=JobSearchViewJob&JobSearch_JobId=39143889&JobSearchType=JobSearch
They pay their quality techs $8.50/hour.
Don't they think that this is an important job that should perhaps pay a little more? Maybe rural California isn't like urban California in terms of cost of living and the job market, but it seems like they wouldn't attract or retain the most responsible candidates at that pay rate.

[KG]

1. and some wonder about the e. coli outbreaks....

'This position is located in San Juan Bautista, Ca. Must have minimum two years experience food processing with quality assurance or sanitation work. Bilingual (English/Spanish)preferred. Training will be provided on procedures to maintain a constant sanitary wash method to insure safe handling of leafy salad mixes for ready to eat salads. Will complete all necessary forms. Complete safe testing methods to insure a sanitary product of high quality. Must be able to lift 25 pounds and work in cold, noisy and wet environment, including handling of chlorine and citric acid. Must be able to work rotating shifts and be available for nights or weekend work shifts. Will monitor and maintain adequate chlorine and citric acid levels specified for raw food product processing and packaging. Will check for defects and quality at all stages of the processing to assure company specifications and procedures are maintained within compliance of company's standards'

for all that, they will pay the princely sum of 8.50/hour!

[Vexatious Ape]

3. That's pathetic but what can we expect when only 7% of the

American workforce belongs to a union.

[MADem]

38. No, that's nonsense. As I said elsewhere, you'd need magic vision to 'see' E. Coli

The sum is a buck over the California minimum wage (which is higher than the FEDERAL minimum wage), FWIW. The job is washing lettuce.

The worker won't be able to prevent E. Coli from finding its way into your bag of greens, even if you paid them a hundred bucks an hour to wash each leaf by hand, because they can't SEE that.

It comes in from the field, due to contaminated harvesting equipment or irrigation water. And once it's on the lettuce or greens, you've got to dump everything that's been cut by the dirty harvesting equipment, or sprayed with the tainted irrigation water.

Unless, of course, you're alleging that an organic factory farming enterprise, which Earthbound Farms is, would allow people to use the restroom and not wash and wear plastic gloves while on the line. I rather doubt that's the case.

[madrchsod]

2. hell that`s a good starting wage for any job

most food industry jobs pay this or less as a starting wage. quality techs are those who have the ability to read and write..i`m being snarky. i used to work at a company that made processed food fillers

[notadmblnd]

4. you had me going WTF for a second.

And we wonder why peanut butter is recalled and there's shit in the lettuce and spinach. :crazy:

[MADem]

5. I do not know this for a fact, but I suspect they may have a candidate in mind

And they're posting this just so they can say they "recruited" and did not show favoritism--having written job descriptions in the past, this one has a lot of picky and particular requirements for minimum wage. The job requirements aren't rocket science--you have to mix two solutions, and make sure the lettuce gets sprayed, and if you see a hideous chunk of greens, pull it out. You have to lift sacks of greens weighing 25 pounds. And you have to speak English AND Spanish. And have experience (gee, where would one get that?).

It's a wet, noisy environment--a lettuce laundry, if you will:

This position is located in San Juan Bautista, Ca. Must have minimum two years experience food processing with quality assurance or sanitation work. Bilingual (English/Spanish)preferred. Training will be provided on procedures to maintain a constant sanitary wash method to insure safe handling of leafy salad mixes for ready to eat salads. Will complete all necessary forms. Complete safe testing methods to insure a sanitary product of high quality. Must be able to lift 25 pounds and work in cold, noisy and wet environment, including handling of chlorine and citric acid. Must be able to work rotating shifts and be available for nights or weekend work shifts. Will monitor and maintain adequate chlorine and citric acid levels specified for raw food product processing and packaging. Will check for defects and quality at all stages of the processing to assure company specifications and procedures are maintained within compliance of company's standards.


Job Benefits

A benefit package may or may not be available. Request specific information from the employer.

Perhaps it's one of those deals where if you'd worked there for awhile, you get the health benefits, so, if they recruit from within, they get a known employee and that person gets a family health plan. And THAT could be the draw that makes the job worthwhile, not the lousy salary. They don't say anything about raises for longevity--it certainly isn't a high paying job for the state.

Here are the stats for Salinas (2006) in comparison to the top places to live. Salaries aren't great, and homes are expensive: http://money.cnn.com/magazines/moneymag/bplive/2006/snapshots/PL0664224.html

[Arkansas Granny]

7. I think your suspicions are probably right on the mark.

[sandnsea]

8. An immigrant who got a green card

and will keep their mouth shut about the illegals. That's who they have in mind. And even with health insurance, it's still crappy pay for keeping the food supply safe.

[wiley]

9. You are Exactly right.

And at a very early age that person will have the typical chemical exposure health related problems that kill the mostly brown skinned people without whom this country could not run. You can get jobs like that cleaning nuclear fuel tanks or tarring roads as well.

[kestrel91316]

11. The food factory employees aren't the ones keeping the food supply safe.

That responsibility falls to state and federal inspectors (many of whom are veterinarians), who in theory ride herd over the plant.

Doesn't always work out so well for the inspectors:

http://www.usda.gov/oig/webdocs/oig55.html

The USDA is the nation's largest employer of veterinarians. Too bad Bush has worked overtime to tie their hands.............

[sandnsea]

12. Did you read the job description?

This is the person actually doing the work, the one who actually makes sure the food that goes in your mouth is clean.

"Will monitor and maintain adequate chlorine and citric acid levels specified for raw food product processing and packaging. Will check for defects and quality at all stages of the processing to assure company specifications and procedures are maintained within compliance of company's standards'

[kestrel91316]

49. Oh, I know. It's Bubba, trusted with washing the lettuce properly.

But he's a plant employee. Government inspectors are state or federal employees. For good reason.

[MADem]

22. I don't think this person has final say; they're just a small cog in the wheel.

And it could well be (I'd guess it is LIKELY, in fact) they are one in a crowd of others doing the exact same thing. This looks to me like a job with minor communication requirements (I need more citric acid, e.g.--we're out of spray wash--in English AND Spanish) and a basic inspection element (pick out those hideous chunks before you put the lettuce on the belt and spray it), but not lead dog or final inspector by any stretch.

There's drying and bagging, and sealing the bags, that has to happen before the greens get boxed up and shipped to market. That's not going to happen in this wet environment, that will happen further down the line, I'd wager.

This looks like the start of the packaging process, not the final steps, this job.

That said, this company was one of the E. Coli/Spinach bunch: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/16/us/16spinach.html?ex=1316059200&en=cdeed2e0a300b8f8&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss

Their harvesting and processing methods are likely closely scrutinized these days because of that cockup.

[sandnsea]

24. It's still crappy pay

for somebody who is packaging our food or monitoring others who are packaging our food. I don't think anybody thought this was the onsight federal inspector. I'm not sure how to say that any clearer.

[MADem]

30. It's more than California minimum wage, FWIW

I'm guessing it's what the market will bear.

http://www.dir.ca.gov/Iwc/MinimumWageHistory.htm
The current minimum in CA is seven fifty. It goes to eight bucks next year.

The blue states (pretty green in this representation) tend to have higher wages, by and large. This website is very instructive, too:

http://www.dol.gov/esa/minwage/america.htm



States with minimum wage rates higher than the Federal
States with no minimum wage law (somehow not surprising)
States with minimum wage rates the same as the Federal
States with minimum wage rates lower than the Federal (what's the matter with KANSAS, indeed???)
American Samoa has special minimum wage rates

[sandnsea]

39. fuck it, everybody live in poverty then

since wages don't matter. This thread is why people vote Republican.

[MADem]

46. Why are you getting so pissed off? If this thread was REPUBLICAN, as you say,

there'd be calls to push back the (way too high, they would aver) California minimum wage, along with eliminating the FEDERAL minimum wage as well, and there would be anger at Earthbound Farms, first, for being a sandal wearing, hippie-lefty organic company, and second, for paying a full dollar over the mandated minimum wage, and thus causing others in similar jobs to expect more money for their work as well.


You're acting like the people who are discussing a simple reality in reasonable fashion are somehow being cruel. They aren't. There is a wide disparity in wages across this country. Yes, California is a pricy state, especially when buying property, but they also pay more than most in wages, as illustrated in the map I posted elsewhere in this thread.

If you have a problem with wages in general, that's one thing and it might be worth your starting a separate thread to discuss that particular issue. But if you look at the totality of jobs and wages across the country, California isn't the worst of the lot by any stretch. And if they wanted to be total shitheads at Earthbound Farms, they'd pay seven fifty, because they could get away with it, as that's the current minimum in the state.

[Buzz Clik]

6. $8.50 per hour? Holy crapoli! You get what you pay for.

I pay more than that to have somebody put greenhouse mix in pots.

[kestrel91316]

10. That's why state and federal governments hire veterinarians

and people with bachelor of science degrees for food inspectors and supervisory personnel. Because the food processing companies and packing plants hire entry-level HS dropouts who need close watching.

Wonder what the vet-haters here would say to that. WE VETS are the ones TRYING to keep the nation's food supply safe. We don't get much acknowledgement or gratitude, and now the frigging foxes are guarding the henhouses and tying vets' hands, thanks to Bush.

[Nikia]

16. I agree that there USDA and FDA inspectors are important

I don't believe that onsite USDA inspectors are required for vegtable processing though.
I do hope that they do have a superviser, lead person, or lab people who do get paid a better wage.
When I see ads like this, hear, about food related disease outbreaks, and read news about food inspector positions being but, it makes me nervous.

[kestrel91316]

48. IIRC, USDA handles inspection of meat, poultry, and dairy.

FDA must handle produce and grains and such. But I have no professional knowledge in this regard because I didn't study veggies in vet school, lol.

[TZ]

13. its probably some kind of asembly line testing

where the work is the same over and over and over again and thinking is not required just coordination and stamina. Although that is really bad pay. The lab assistants that I have known who do work like that which includes exciting things like washing glassware and making reagents from set recipies make more than that!

[pitohui]

15. i'm sure that's exactly what it is EOM

.

[BlooInBloo]

14. Pay is typically based not upon how important the job is, but how rare able people are.

Does it bother me? (shrug) There are plusses and minuses - it's unlikely there's a scheme that's ALL plusses and NO minuses.

[Nikia]

17. I know that pay is based on how easy a person is to replace

But when a person could easily get another job paying that much or more without having any skills or education, it means that most decent workers will not stay at a job for very long. When you have a lot of turnover and aren't attracting stellar applicants to begin with, mistakes are common. Quality technicians are often the last line of defense. Having mistakes there, especially with ready to eat foods, can be a big deal, even causing deaths.

[BlooInBloo]

19. Sure - "can". More important than purely theoretical flaws would be empirical evidence...

... Can you point to repeated large-scale deaths that are the result of this? If not, so the argument goes, the flaw you point out is nothing more than theoretical.

[Nikia]

20. The lettuce and spinach e coli outbreaks in the past year

Even if this company was not involved, it is in the area, and if this one is paying $8.50/hour, the others are unlikely to pay much more.
I don't know for sure if the illnesses and deaths could have been prevented by the quality tech doing everything correctly, but I am not sure that such information would be released if a technician error was the cause.

[BlooInBloo]

21. Those were *large-scale* deaths? Or are you just not responding to what I said?

[MADem]

23. It was involved. It was THE company, in fact

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/16/us/16spinach.html?ex=1316059200&en=cdeed2e0a300b8f8&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

18. It Is An Unskilled Low Level Job. It's Basically Washing Stuff. Salary Seems Standard To Me.

This pay scale doesn't stand out to me any more than it would for any other jobs of this type.

Not sure what the problem is here. We're basically talking about making sure lettuce is washed correctly.

[sandnsea]

25. If your loved one dies

maybe you will recognize the logic in paying a living wage to someone with a mind-numbingly boring job that requires commitment every single second to keep deadly bacteria out of our food. People aren't paid well for these jobs because they require extensive training, they're paid well because they require intense dedication and attention.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

27. God I Love Melodramatic Replies.

There is nothing complicated involved in this work whatsoever. In fact, it is probably no more skill required than any person working in a burger king. Though I think there's almost no job that should pay any less than ten bucks an hour, as long as wages are what they are then this one falls into a standard category of pay scale based on the simplicity and lack of skill required for the job.

I mean, for God's sake, it seems to basically be a job about making sure water has the right additives in it and then washing lettuce. Don't exaggerate what's involved here.

[MADem]

36. No amount of washing would have gotten those turds off the lettuce, in essence

Because they weren't big turds, they were microscopic. The problem was either irrigation groundwater contamination, because you had livestock too close to growing fields, or the very cutting equipment in the FIELD was contaminated. Once you slice into the product with a contaminated cutter, there's no 'cleaning' that is going to get rid of the problem--it must be physically chopped away. And if you add water to the mix, you're just spreading the problem further and making it impossible to resolve. The spinach problem at Earthbound Farms wasn't one that could be seen and corrected with the naked eye, anyway.

There's no way a line worker could see microscopic E. Coli on the lettuce (we aren't talking massive cowflaps mixed in with the greens, here), unless he or she was a superhero and had microscopic/X ray vision--in which case, there's a better job at the airframe plant checking the integrity of aircraft, I'd wager!!!

I would also imagine, that, since most of this product is TRIPLE washed, that there's a bit of overkill involved in the entire process to ensure that there aren't any oddball items ending up in the plastic bag.

Microscopic E. Coli, though, if that's introduced in the harvesting process, there isn't a damn thing that the line can do to fix that. The entire harvest must be thrown out. And no hypervigilant lettuce washer will save you from it. They won't see it, they won't know.

A frog in your bag? Sure, they should be able to catch that:



It's why it's so important to clean mechanical (or hand held, for that matter) cutting devices religiously when harvesting, and it's why a smart cook cuts the ends off of fresh, hand or otherwise harvested, unwashed veggies--ya never know.

[sandnsea]

41. Then why not just box it and ship it?

If washing doesn't do any good anyway? Why do they even tell people to wash their own vegetables at home?

Taking one scenario and pretending it's the only possibility in the food line doesn't change the fact that keeping our food clean and safe is an important job and deserves a decent wage. $8.50 isn't a decent wage for anybody, anywhere, doing anything. People cannot survive on it, much less take care of a family on it. If you want to keep subsidizing these wages with tax-funded social programs, that's up to you I guess. I continue to believe business should pay their own labor costs and reduce their profits if the market won't bear the end price.

[MADem]

45. The purpose of washing is to get the sand and grit and dirt off the lettuce

NOT E. Coli.

That's the lettuce washer's job. Sand, grit, dirt, that frog that got scooped up, that big chunk of yanked up root that found its way onto the conveyer belt. But not microscopic E. Coli.

These bagged products are designed so you don't have to wash them. If you buy heads of lettuce in the store, you cut off that nasty end and wash it yourself. It isn't prewashed like this bagged stuff, beyond perhaps a quick spray to knock the obvious dirt off.

If proper irrigation methodologies are employed in factory greens farms, if mechanical harvesting devices are kept clean as a hound's tooth, then you don't introduce any E. Coli into the processing universe in the first place.

Look, I have a friend in the industry, I'm not talking out my ass on this subject. People who don't like mechanically harvested produce would do well to stick to local and seasonal produce. But if you want your arugula in December, you're going to have to deal with factory farm produce. If you like having your lettuce triple washed, packed in a nice little convenient bag, so that all you have to do is dump, toss dressing on, and serve, well, you're going to buy those products because they're timesavers for busy people.

Earthbound Farms is paying a buck over the California minimum wage for this lettuce washing job. If no one wants the job at that wage, they'll up the price, and pass the cost on to the consumer, I'm sure. It's the way the market works.

Don't blame me for that reality, I'm not hiring these people, and I don't own the company.

[sandnsea]

50. Human excrement

Which also gets into any field and consequently, on to the produce. Which also contains all sorts of bacteria that needs to be washed off.

I grew up in the central California valley. You've been misinformed. They are not using all the chemicals described in the job description to rinse off a little grit.

The job will pay more when people understand the circumstances under which their food is packaged and demand higher standards. We used to have that 20 years ago, when we had more unions. More people get sick and die, we'll have it again. That's the way a labor and consumer driven economy works.

[MADem]

55. That is just not true. I have not been misinformed, but you have, I fear.

That last big outbreak came from three sources--irrigation water that was contaminated by cow feces, wild boar poop, and mechanical cutters that came in contact with the infected irrigation water AND the greens.

I used to live in Monterey. Spent years on a farm in the UK as well. I know the score, too. You keep your farm animals distant from your veggies, and you don't fertilize salad greens and vegetables to be consumed raw with cowshit. In fact, if you do use slurry to fertilize crop areas, you need to carefully adhere to timelines to reduce the likelihood of contamination: http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=525133

A joint trace back by FDA and the State of California revealed that four spinach fields were the possible source of the E. coli contamination. The outbreak strain of E. coli was isolated from cattle fields nearby the implicated spinach fields, as well as from a wild boar that was killed in one of the fields. The investigation into how the spinach E. coli outbreak originated is ongoing.

http://www.marlerclark.com/spinach-ecoli-outbreak.htm

Human excrement, as you aver, is NOT going to cause the problem, unless the strain of E. Coli is already present in the crap--in which case, the agricultural worker wouldn't be at work--he'd be dehydrated and glued to the crapper--he'd be much too sick to be able to move, never mind get to his job. It's cowshit that causes these sorts of outbreaks, and carries the strain of E. Coli that caused the serious illnesses found in the spinach imbroglio (see the information quoted at the end of this post)--in fact, human feces are a very common fertilizer in Japan--and they grow some seriously perfect vegetables in very inhospitable soil over there.

It's when you have the 'bloody diarrhea' style of E. coli butting up against the point where the produce is cut, is separated, from the earth, that's when you have trouble. You can wash and wash, and it won't go away. You've got to cook the life out of it to be safe in that instance.

And there's NO WAY, as I said before, that a lettuce washer can physically inspect lettuce and verify that there's no E. Coli on it. None whatsoever. They can verify that there is no dirt, sand, grit, or even poop, but they can't verify that there's no E. Coli. No matter how hard they concentrate, and no matter how good their vision is.

It just is not going to happen, it's microscopic, not visible to the eye.

The hygiene that needs to take place in the field is not simply ensuring that the agricultural worker doesn't crap in the field. It extends to ensuring proper advance preparation and fertilization of the soil, ensuring a clean, unimfected supply of irrigation water, ensuring sufficient space between animal husbandry efforts and growing of vegetables, ensuring that the cutting mechanisms, be they mechanical or a worker with a knife (dipping it in a bucket of disinfecting solution regularly) and it also involves the washing of the produce, either in a factory farm processing environment or by the consumer at their home. It is also important to fence, create berms, or use hedging to limit access to fields by wild animals that might also cause a problem, like that aforementioned boar.

An E. Coli primer, for your edification:

Some frequently asked questions about E. coli:

Q: What is Escherichia coli, or E. coli?

A: E. coli are common, normally benign intestinal bacteria found in humans and animals, but the O157:H7 strain produces a powerful toxin that can cause bloody diarrhea, abdominal cramps and in some cases death. The O157 bacteria is virulent and tough and only a few are needed to cause illness.



Q: How is E. coli O157:H7 spread?

A: The O157 strain is not naturally present in humans, but does occur in cattle. Infected animals can spread the bacteria through their feces, which can wind up on beef during the butchering process. Eating undercooked ground beef causes most E. coli-related illnesses. Feces-contaminated water, vegetables and fruit, as well as unpasteurized milk or juice, can also cause infection.




Q: What illness does E. coli O157:H7 cause?

A: The O157 strain can cause bloody diarrhea and dehydration. The very young, seniors and people with weak immune systems are the most vulnerable. In children, O157 may lead to a severe, sometimes fatal kidney disease called HUS (hemolytic-uremic syndrome).



Q: How is E. coli O157:H7 infection diagnosed?

A: The O157 strain often goes undiagnosed because many labs don't test for it. Anyone who suddenly has diarrhea with blood should be tested.

Q: How is the illness treated?

A: This is an antibiotic-resistant strain of E. coli. Most people recover without treatment in 5-10 days.

Q: What are the long-term consequences of infection?

A: People who only have diarrhea usually recover completely. About a third of people with HUS can have kidney problems years later, and some require long-term dialysis.

Sources: Centers for Disease Control; Associated Press
http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2006-09-14-ecoli_x.htm

[sandnsea]

57. You're stuck on E-coli

I never referenced it. I simply stated all sorts of bacteria can be spread through unclean produce and if that weren't the case, we wouldn't wash it at all.

[MADem]

59. Well, that's the whole issue at Earthbound Farms--E. Coli. That's where the outbreak happened.

And that is where this job is. This lettuce washer would be just one worker on not a single, not a double, but a triple-wash line.

[sandnsea]

61. It's not the only issue with food

It's also obvious that more than one person processes lettuce or any other produce.

I don't know why I'm continuously shocked when the free marketers at DU rear their heads and show their callousness towards low income workers, but I am. We've gone from every patient having an RN to every patient not even having a CNA anymore, and the free marketers would have us believe quality hasn't suffered. Same with food or any other industry.

Do people just not understand the way it used to be for laborers in this country??

http://www.elandar.com/back/www-oct95/andar/cover/cannery.htm

[MADem]

66. It's the one that kills though. And you were the one who brought up the "if your loved one dies"

theme upthread.

Earthbound is an organic enterprise that started off on a tiny little couple of acres--it's a small business that has grown in recent years, owned by PEOPLE, not a corporation. They don't add a boatload of chemicals to the soil, during the planting process, or during the harvesting. So, if you have good soil, good water, good air, good sunlight, you're going to have a good product. They had bad water in the E. Coli outbreak, and that is what caused them difficulty. If, in addition to those things, your workers use proper hygiene, wear gloves, you're not going to have problems with your food. These folks have introduced laboratory testing of lots of greens prior to processing since that E. Coli business, in order to reduce the chance of a repeat--you can read about the process (to include the greens washing process) here: http://www.ebfarm.com/Products/QualityFoodSafety.html

Look, I understand your concern with regard to wages. It's a problem across the country. But in the big scheme of things, California is not the worst offender (as is evident if you study the map I provided above), they have a minimum wage higher than the federal one (and it is going UP next year, again) and this job, certainly, is not an egregious "five bucks an hour under the table" domestic worker job--and we know there are plenty of those out that way.

For all you know, since Earthbound provides 'opportunity for growth,' this job could be going to a long-term employee who is mentally retarded, living in a subsidized group home, but with sufficent skills to move up from broom pushing at seven fifty an hour to lettuce washing at eight fifty. You're assuming that the person taking this job is a sole source provider, who has to live, perhaps supporting a family alone, on this wage. But you don't KNOW. You also don't know how much overtime is offered (which in CA, owing to law, boosts a paycheck considerably with time and a half and then doubletime kicking in). And, if you cruise your local supermarket, you'll notice that Earthbound products cost way more than Dole and other brands. I imagine at least some of that added cost goes to things like the employee compensation packages they offer.

In the big scheme of things, I hardly think they're the poster children for puttin' down the workers. They don't seem to be beating their employees to death, they offer benefits most Americans do not get, and up-through-the -ranks promotion opportunities as well--these sandal wearing organic hippies seem to run a responsible company, otherwise their thousand employees would probably go work at In and Out Burger for that great nine fifty an hour instead:

Earthbound Farm offers competitive compensation and opportunity for growth, plus benefits such as medical, dental, vision, life, partial-matching 401(k), employer-contribution medical savings account, vacation, PTO, holidays, employee-driven charitable donations, and an employee family scholarship program.

http://www.ebfarm.com/AboutUs/Employment.html

Compensation isn't just about the pay per hour. I dunno--I think they are a responsible outfit, myself. Their mission statement, local community involvement, medical/dental/401k, scholarship program...all those things don't sound to me like a sweatshop environment, and they HAVE VALUE, even if you aren't getting dollars in your paw. And frankly, I don't see anything wrong with employees starting out on the ground floor and working their way up the ladder in an organization, because it promotes a team spirit, mission understanding and company loyalty--and hiring from within is what these guys do. Supervisors hired from within know the process and have more credibility, because they've done the work, after all. http://www.ebfarm.com/AboutUs/GivingBack.html

Frankly, I think you are way too quick to make assumptions, and condemn these people running this outfit without knowing the details of the company. Some jobs simply ARE entry level. Some jobs are filled by high school dropouts, or college kids either working nights, or going to night school. Some jobs are filled by mentally disabled workers who aren't ever, at the peak of their earning power, going to make much more than a buck over minimum wage. Some jobs supplement family incomes, and don't actually support a family. Some jobs are actually mostly AUTOMATED, and the worker does things like lift twenty five pound bags of greens, and fill tubs full of clean water and washing solution, and NOT MUCH ELSE.



You're taking one single low-level line job at an organic factory farm, and, quite angrily, in fact, extrapolating from it that this place is a sweatshop that doesn't pay a living wage. I disagree with your assessment and suggest it is presumptuous. This isn't about "the free marketeers on DU" this is about a simple, SINGLE entry level position that, after a little research, appears to be posted by a responsible company owned by real people, not an anonymous board, that cares about their employees and provides them opportunity for advancement, contributes to the local community, is charitable, and has a decent benefits package.


And I DO understand 'how it used to be' for laborers in this country--back in the days of Cesar Chavez, when United Farm Workers was just finding its feet, there was no scholarship program for the kids of employees, there were no company community charitable programs, there was no California minimum wage that is higher than the federal minimum wage, there was no employee medical, no dental, no 401Ks, workers were being poisoned by pesticides, forced to work eighty or more hours a week, cheated out of their pay, housed in unfit shacks, abandoned to die if they became ill....so to infer that this company is run by brutes who disregard the worker (and by extension, that the 'good old days' were so much better for agricultural laborers) is a bit, shall we say, revisionist...and that's putting it very kindly.

If Cesar Chavez could have seen the conditions and wages at Earthbound Farms when he was fighting for justice for farm workers fifty years ago, he would have cried for joy.

[Greyhound]

26. If this is fine with you, consider this. In-n-Out burgers start at $9.75 in California.

This is how the myth about "jobs Americans won't do" is maintained. BTW, it no cheaper to live in rural SoCal than urban, in fact many things, like fuel, are more expensive. In any case no one could even rent a tiny studio on $8.50, including over-time.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

28. Agreed, But Not My Point Really.

I agree that wages in general for low level jobs are no longer enough to survive on for just about anybody. As stated in a different reply, I don't think any job should pay less than ten bucks for just about anything. But aside from that, as long as wages are what they are, then this would fall into what I'd consider to be an expected pay scale for such work. It's basically a lettuce washer.

If we're having a discussion about how wages in general for low level jobs needs to be increased because the wages as they are now are not enough to survive on, then I'd agree. But I looked at this more as a discussion on the job itself, based on today's wage standards, being far under what it should be comparatively. I don't think it is and think it falls right into the level I would expect it to. But that doesn't mean I think the current wage standards are fair or appropriate either. Depends on the discussion we're having.

[Greyhound]

31. Missed the point entirely, this position is vitaly important to maintain

a safe food supply, much more important than flipping burgers and making french-frys, yet the burger flippers start at a pay rate nearly 25% higher and work in much better and safer conditions.

[BlooInBloo]

32. That would be interesting if salary was directly proportional to importance...

... But it's not, so it isn't.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

34. Exactly.

And if that were reality, then teachers should be some of the highest paid amongst us. That obviously isn't so.

[BlooInBloo]

35. Yup.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

33. No, I Didn't Miss The Point, I Merely Disagree With It. It's Perfectly Fine That I Do So.

My opinion is that based on the tasks performed and the level of skill necessary, that the wage itself is within a general range based on today's current wage scale that I'd expect (i.e. it isn't surprising nor alarming to me). You disagree and that's ok too. But because I feel differently does not mean that I missed any point. It just means I don't agree with the point.

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sandnsea]

40. Why nothing ever changes

Because when it gets right down to it, even Democrats put greed over living wages.

[Greyhound]

63. So sad, so true.

Sometimes it is just so depressing when you see how willfully ignorant and short-sighted so many people are. It makes me doubtful that things will ever be made better.
:kick:

[sandnsea]

42. And teachers are glorified babysitters

Wages are kept down by people who don't respect the work. If one values safe food, one pays for it. Just like one pays a teacher if they respect the work. Sometimes one pays a higher wage if the work is just awful to do, like garbage pick up. Continue to let work be demeaned, continue to let cheap labor conservatives drive wages down.

[BlooInBloo]

51. minus the glorified.

[MADem]

47. $9.50 according to their website.

http://www.in-n-out.com/employment_restaurant.asp

But how selective are they in their hiring process? The person who is turned down by the burger joint for whatever reason--a poor appearance, insufficient aptitude, maybe not too swift handling money, an unpleasant speaking voice--might be a better fit as a lettuce washer, where there's no customer service, no money handling, no multi-tasking. Just one repetitive task, over and over again.

The burger job has many more elements than lettuce washing and requires a more varied skillset. It should pay a buck more an hour than lettuce washing.

[MonkeyFunk]

29. why presume

that somebody with low pay is less-conscientious than somebody who gets paid more?

By that reasoning, Ken Lay should've been a saint.

As others have mentioned, this isn't really a skilled job, and I don't think that paying say $11.00/hour would automatically result in better performance.

I used to make $2.35/hour and I was very conscientious and performed well.

[sandnsea]

43. Then why not pay doctors $2.35 too

If money doesn't equal better work.

:shrug:

[MonkeyFunk]

44. You misunderstand me

I'm not comparing doctors to lettuce-washers. I'm comparing a lettuce-washer to a lettuce-washer, and I don't think it's fair to presume that one would be unconscientious at $8.50/hr, but more conscientious at $11.50/hr.

[sandnsea]

52. Then neither would a doctor

or an RN or a teacher or anybody else. If a lettuce washer would be conscientious at $8.50, then so would every other worker who cares about the job they're performing. We pay more to attract higher caliber workers. If thats not true, then the entire premise for paying doctors more than lettuce washers flies right out the window.

[MonkeyFunk]

54. That's being silly

I'm not saying that doctors, who are highly skilled and highly trained, would work for $8.50 an hour. Nobody would enter the medical profession if that were the case.

However, a cosmetic surgeon making $300k/year in Hollywood is no more conscientious than the doctor making 75k/year at the Free Clinic.

But an unskilled, untrained worker, evidently WILL wash lettuce for $8.50/hr, and I don't think it's fair to presume he'll do a lousy job of it unless you pay him more.

But it's nonsensical to turn this into a discussion of doctors vs. lettuce washers. You misread my point, and continuing it is silly.

[sandnsea]

58. Really?

You think a doctor working at a prison or the free clinic has the same skill and dedication as the doctor earning $300,000 a year?? Of course not. Doctors end up at crappy jobs for the same reason other people end up at the low end of their profession. Some people are more conscientious and dedicated than others. If you want our food to be safe, you pay more to get those people in quality control. Quality people won't even apply for an $8.50 hr job.

[MonkeyFunk]

60. Yes

I do believe a doctor who chooses to work at a free clinic IS more conscientious than someone who's chosen to build tit add-ons for a living.

And luckily, the safety the food supply does not depend on people making $8.50 an hour.

How much do you think the lettuce washer should make to ensure "quality" people get the job?

Again, the notion that "quality people" won't work for little money is offensive. My point is that you shouldn't judge someone's conscientiousness by their paycheck.

[sandnsea]

62. So pay doesn't matter

unless one suggests paying a professional a minimal wage - then it matters. The person that keeps bugs and bacteria and excrement off our food doesn't deserve a monetary reward for keeping us healthy; but the doctor who gives us a prescription if the food is contaminated deserves ten times more - when both of them are necessary to our health.

:crazy:

[MonkeyFunk]

64. You

seem incapable of understanding my basic point.

[Nikia]

65. In my experience there are both good and bad workers in low wage jobs

The bad workers are worse than the worst workers in higher paying jobs (provided that it isn't a job where there are few qualified people in that area). This is because there is often not much competition for these jobs, causing them to hire people that other companies might not hire. The better applicants usually apply and get hired at better paying companies. The bad workers might not be fired as easily if there are not enough applicants lined up to take their place. The good workers who are hired often leave after gaining successful work experience. Some workers hired at low paying businesses, but not high paying businesses, may not be in the habit of working for a business for very long. The leaving of the good workers and the firing or leaving of the bad workers means that there is high turnover. In every job, new people always make many more mistakes than experienced people. This can be minimized by good training, but if there is high turnover and they are running short shifted as it is, good training by not be a priority.
I am not saying that there aren't any good workers in low paying jobs. Ther are a variety of reasons that a good worker might choose to remain in a low paying job even if there are others available that might pay more. I am just saying that on the average, a better paying business will attract and retain better workers on average and be more likely to screen out the bad workers in hiring and fire them more quickly compared to a lower paying business.

[Oeditpus Rex]

53. Earthbound Farms is about 12 miles from me

It's just northwest of San Juan, where San Juan Highway and San Justo Road meet.

You can't live on $8.50 an hour around here. Trust me.

[MADem]

56. In which case, the job will remain unfilled, or the worker who takes it will

work overtime so that time and a half and double-time payments (mandated under California law for work in excess of a forty hour week) kick in, I would imagine.