HE'LL BE PUT TO DEATH ON TUESDAY

[Th1onein]

It's not many of us that know the hour and the day, and even the moment, of their own death, but my friend, Robert Perez, does. He is a convicted killer, yes. He killed some of his own gang members in a gang war, yes. He is remorseful, but so what?

He will die on Tuesday. He is sitting in a prison cell, just waiting to die. If you think that this is right, say nothing. If you think that it is wrong, please use your power to give him just thirty more days to live. Just thirty more days. Please.

Call Rick Perry's office, in Texas. Call his office and let him know that you are against this barbaric act. Please call him at: [phone]; let Governor Perry know that you are against the torture death of our prisoners.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

1. Why would thirty more days matter?

It would just be prolonging the inevitable and drawing out the wait.

[MonkeyFunk]

4. wow...

just wow.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

7. Wow. Unreal.

[MonkeyFunk]

9. Yes

the level of insensitivity and callousness shown toward somebody who's trying to save a life is unreal.

Maybe when your death is imminent, you'll appreciate what 30 days means.

[napi21]

15. I' sorry MonkeyFunk, but I thinkanother 30 days would be cruel

to your friend. I can only make this judgement based upon how I think I would feel in the same position. If I knew I was going to be put to death, I would prefer it to be sooner rather than later. You didn't say "Give him another appeal, or 30 days might give him time to get a pardon". I'm sure this man isn't thinking about anything else, and to prolong that is just torture.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

16. And that is how I feel on the matter.

I wouldn't want the mental torture of prolonging it another 30 days.

[MonkeyFunk]

19. It's not my friend...

it's the OP's. And presumably, he knows better than random people on the internet what the condemned man wants.

But the bigger issue is why someone would, for no discernible reason, shit on an appeal for help in a case like this.

[BlooInBloo]

18. Welcome to America - the land of "why fight? may as well kill him now."

[Name removed]

91. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[damntexdem]

6. Read Grisham's 'The Innocent Man.'

Ron Williamson was five days from execution (in Oklahoma) when a stay was granted. Years later, he was cleared and released from prison.

Or do you say what you do because Perez is apparently admittedly guilty? Well, who knows what 30 days might bring?

However, I doubt that Perez has a chance even for those 30 days in Texas, with Perry. Maybe a chance with a court, but not with Governor Good-Hair Perry.

[Th1onein]

8. I can't believe you would have to ask that....

We are all INEVITABLY bound to die, but we cherish the days that we have left. Would we cherish them any less if there were fewer days? Or would we cherish each day more? At this point, thirty days would seem like an eternity to Robert. He has just two days to live.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

10. Honestly, I think if I was stuck in some cell waiting to die, I'd just want it done with.

That's just me, though.

[Richardo]

42. ...and since *you* feel that way, no one else is allowed to want a 30-day reprieve?

Look, if it's "just you", then why not just keep it to yourself instead of crapping all over someone else's thread?

Th1onein was posting in good faith for some support - not asking for opinions.

[Name removed]

71. Deleted message

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[sniffa]

82. yes, and you made that known beLow

expect the return Low bLow.

[Blue-Jay]

12. You're quite the humanitarian.

Forgiving, gracious, and full of love.

[helderheid]

14. erm, we're ALL going to die. Putting off the inevitable is kinda in our nature.

Edited to add my honor to give this rec 5

[Name removed]

70. Deleted message

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[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

79. Strawman.

[Roland99]

80. Not at all.

[Parche]

123. I am with you Haruka

If someone kills another person, I am all for the death penalty.

No one should be able to take another persons life in murder......it is wrong and they should
be punished.









---------------------
"Throughout history, compassionate minds have pondered this dark and disturbing question: What is society to do with those members who are a threat to society, those malcontents and misfits whose behavior undermines and destroys the foundations of civilization? Different ages have found different answers. Misfits have been burned, branded, and banished. Today on this planet Earth, the criminal is incarcerated in humane institutions, or he is executed. "

[Nutmegger]

2. Against all forms of revenge killing by the state.

I will call.

[Orrex]

3. I concur

Capital punishment differs from illegal murder only in the level of societal consensus achieved in justifying it.

I fear that a call to Perry's office will do little good, but I will make the attempt on Monday.

[roody]

27. I will call too.

Stop the killing.

[goclark]

11. Me too,killing him will not stop gang violence

What is the number again?

[helderheid]

20. hi!

:hi:

[Freddie Stubbs]

176. It is also preventative

He will not kill anyone ever again.

[ProudDad]

5. State murder

is still murder!

I don't think governor blow dry is going to show any mercy though.

My condolences in advance...

On edit:

email gov perry here:

http://www.demaction.org/dia/organizations/ncadp/campaign.jsp?campaign_KEY=6845

and there's a human being behind the statistic;

http://www.deathrow-usa.us/RobertPerez.htm


K&R

[Book Lover]

13. Kick and rec

I emailed his office Friday and will make my call on Monday.

All my hopes.

[Gregorian]

17. I'm recommending this.

We've done all we can do. But we can continue over and over.

I'm so sick of my country. A sick sick country. People don't care. And the cycle seems to continue. Blame and shame and killing.

I don't know what to say. It's so basic and so obvious. You get it, or you're just meat on feet.

I say we never stop trying to end the suffering and killing. No matter WHOM.

It's time to call Perry's office. Everyone. We can stop this.

[patrice]

21. I will call. n/t

[Texasgal]

22. Is it possible to get a thread

honoring the victims here? Seems only fair.

[MonkeyFunk]

24. sure

go start one. Click "Post".

[Texasgal]

25. I would

If I was privy to this person crimes. :eyes:

[MonkeyFunk]

26. You could google it...

since you're only one who thinks that fairness requires such a thread.

[Texasgal]

28. Or..prehaps

out of fairness.. someone could post the skinny on his crimes... :eyes:

[MonkeyFunk]

29. Why is it "fair"?

The state killing someone isn't offset by somebody doing that. It's just the same old knee-jerk reaction from people who support the death penalty - "WHAT ABOUT THE VICTIMS?!?!?"

Well, the victims are dead. I didn't kill them, you didn't kill them, the state didn't kill them. Executions though, are about you, me and the state killing someone.

[joshcryer]

56. I think the state is being far less evil than those family members or friends...

...who would tear him apart limb by limb were the state not there keeping him segregated from society.

I mean, really. I find the whole death row prison system government dynamic to be quite interesting, because if I felt someone had killed my loved ones I'd go after them quite readily. The only thing that would concievably prevent me from doing so is the state and its systems that it has in place. Interesting to think about in any case.

[Zuiderelle]

110. Well put. Thanks.

:thumbsup:

[michreject]

135. There's a difference

Executions though, are about you, me and the state killing someone.

The state is not killing an innocent victim.

[jmowreader]

35. You're talking about the REAL victims here, right?

Robert Perez was a general in a San Antonio street gang named the Mexican Mafia.

A convicted racketeer, Perez faces the needle for his role in the deaths of Robert Rivas and Jose "Popeye" Travieso, members of an unnamed rival gang. Travieso was paralyzed in an earlier gangland shooting and was confined to a wheelchair at the time of his death.

Perez and two accomplices, Joe Sandoval and Javier Garcia, stood side-by-side and performed execution-style murders of Rivas and Travieso. They also shot Jesse Travieso, who they stuffed under a parked car and left for dead. Jesse Travieso was the state's star witness in their trial against Perez.

http://venus.soci.niu.edu/~archives/ABOLISH/rick-halperin/mar99/0604.html

http://www.tdcj.state.tx.us/stat/perezrobert.htm

Now let's talk some REAL victims, like Leah Schendel, 78-year-old victim of Manuel Babbitt, who was executed in 1999 for assault, murder and attempted rape. Babbitt, who suffered from schizophrenia amplified by two tours in Vietnam (Babbitt was a veteran of the Siege at Khe Sanh), broke into her apartment, beat the shit out of her and robbed the place; she later died of a heart attack brought on by the beating.

Or the people sitting on Texas' death row, courtesy of the current resident of the White House, who received public-defender attorneys who slept during their trials and were later granted 15 minutes of Fearless Leader's time during their gubernatorial reviews. I would hazard a guess that at least 20 percentof all the people Bush put on Death Row either shouldn't have been sentenced to death (they committed crimes but not capital ones) or shouldn't have been convicted at all.

Let's honor the real victims of capital punishment, not Robert Perez.

[DefenseLawyer]

57. There is no honor in the death penalty.

You write about honoring the victims, as if not killing this man for his crimes is somehow honoring him. Or perhaps you mean that killing him would somehow "honor" the victims. It won't. It won't make their deaths any less senseless or tragic and it won't bring them back to life. This plea has no real bearing on the victims one way or the other, really, but it certainly doesn't do anything that I can see that dishonors them. It is simply one person trying to keep another person from being killed.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

23. I Don't Think It's Right. But Then, I Don't Think He's Remorseful Either.

I also don't think prolonging the mental torture for 30 more days is inherently positive for him. It may not be.

I think in certain ways it's honorable what you're doing even if I do still question your taste in friends. But I do have to admit that I've seen nothing from this character that offered even the slightest hint of remorse. The closest I saw to such claim was the following from you in the other thread:

"He is a beaten man. You can hear his despair in his letters. He thinks of all of the things that he could have done, and didn't do, because of the choices that he made. He thinks of the children that he leaves behind. And, yes, he is remorseful, for all the good that that does him. Mostly, though, he is just without hope."

But I don't look at that as remorse. Most of the comments are about him, his despair, his regrets of not being able to see his kids grow up, his sorrow as to the things he's missed out on. His lack of hope. Well I don't see that as remorse. I see that as someone who is still utterly selfish. I didn't see one thing in your description of his despair about his victims. Yeah, remember them? His VICTIMS. The ones he brutally murdered. What about their hopes? What about the things they cannot do? What about their kids? I have not seen ANY statements from him that show a deep remorse for those sorts of ideals; for the fact he took the lives of others and took their futures and hopes away. That's what remorse is to me. Remorse isn't feeling sorry for yourself because you're locked in a prison 23 hours a day for years while awaiting the death penalty. That's not remorse; It's called tough fucking shit.

Now let me be clear that I do not condone nor support the death penalty. I don't think it's ever right to take another life except for self defense, imminent danger etc. But I just do have trouble giving any sympathy to someone who acted in such cold and selfish ways that has not truly repented or shown deep and profound change and remorse. Now maybe he has, but like I said I have seen nothing to indicate that.

[TorchTheWitch]

31. Good one

Couldn't have said it better myself. The only remorse I've seen from this cold blooded murderer is woe is me I got caught. I don't see this guy as being any kind of friend to the OP and is shamelessly using her for his own selfish desires.

[ulysses]

33. "trouble giving any sympathy"

It's not about sympathy, at least it isn't for me. Nor is it about not feeling badly for his victims. These are strawmen that serve only to obscure the fact that killing by the state is wrong.

[Name removed]

36. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[foreigncorrespondent]

30. The most I can give you is...

...to say I am sorry that this is happening. I wish I could do more, but being a foreigner no one in U.S. politics will give a shit what I say.

[PaganPreacher]

32. Details of the crimes:

On 04/17/94, in San Antonio, Texas, Perez and two co-defendants fatally shot two adult Hispanic males numerous times with a .380 caliber pistol, a 9 millimeter pistol, and a .38 caliber pistol. The shooting was a result of an internal power struggle within the Mexican Mafia.

FACTS OF THE CRIME

In the mid-1990’s, the Mexican Mafia, or “La Eme,” in San Antonio was in a state of flux. The organization’s president, Herbert Huerta, was sentenced to life in federal prison, so he named Diane “Laura” Guzman as general of the San Antonio division. Luis “Blue” Adames challenged the appointment, naming himself as the new president. The organization split in two, with each faction determined to assassinate the alleged traitors in the other group. Huerta’s supporters included Robert Perez, Robert Herrera, and Frank Estrada,

In April 1994, Perez, Herrera and Estrada spotted Adames’s car in San Antonio. They went home to arm themselves and then returned to the area, looking for Adames. They intended to kill him. Instead, they found Adames’ supporters – both Jose and Jesse Travieso and Robert Rivas. A barrage of gunshots followed, and Perez’s group killed Rivas and Jose Travieso, and wounded Jesse Travieso.


PRIOR CRIMINAL HISTORY

The Mexican Mafia has a violent and extensive criminal history; during the early 1990s, it virtually had a stranglehold on San Antonio. In 1996, Perez and Robert Herrera, Perez’s right-hand man, controlled the gang. Just months after Travieso and Rivas were murdered, Adames was murdered. Perez not only ordered the hit, he had planned it. Additionally, Perez ordered the murders of several other people. Emilio Barrera Alejandro died as a result of thirteen gunshot wounds, eleven to the head and two to the chest. Earnest Ybarra died as a result of twelve gunshot wounds. Adam Tenorio was killed because he disobeyed an order not to discuss the West French Place murders. He died as a result of eleven stab wounds. Robert De Los Santos was killed for the same reason as Tenorio. He died as a result of blunt force trauma and strangulation. Daniel Moreno was killed as an example to other members, having failed to perform some task he had volunteered to do. He died as a result of two gunshot wounds, one to the face and one to the chest. Elijilio De La Garza (“Chico”) died as a result of eleven gunshot wounds, including five to the head. De La Garza was the one who said that Perez had ordered the killings at West French Place. Presumably, he was killed for this reason.

The West French Place murders mentioned above were, at the time, the most violent and bloody in San Antonio’s history. While at least two former members of the Mexican Mafia disputed that Perez ordered the murders, both acknowledged that Perez had ordered the hijacking. It was thought that large amounts of both cocaine and cash would be found in the targeted apartment. Those who participated went armed with shotguns. All five people found in the apartment were bound with duct tape. Then, for reasons still unclear, all five were shot and killed. Only five pounds of marijuana and $300 in cash were confiscated.

PROCEDURAL HISTORY

December 11, 1997 — A Bexar County grand jury indicted Robert Perez for the capital murder of Robert Rivas and Jose Travieso.
May 21, 1999 — After a change of venue to Dallas County, a jury found Perez guilty of capital murder and following a separate punishment hearing, the court assessed a sentence of death.
September 19, 2001 — Perez’s conviction and death sentence were affirmed on direct appeal by the Texas Court of Criminal Appeals.
February 15, 2001 — Perez filed an application for writ of habeas corpus in the state trial court.
April 30, 2003 — The Texas Court of Criminal Appeals denied habeas relief.
October 14, 2003 — Perez filed a petition for writ of habeas corpus in a Dallas U.S. District Court.
June 24, 2005 — The federal district court denied habeas relief on all of Perez’s claims.
March 23, 2006 — The 5th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals denied Perez permission to appeal and affirmed the district court’s denial of habeas relief.
June 2, 2006 — Perez sought certiorari review in the U.S. Supreme Court.
October 2, 2006 — The Supreme Court denied certiorari review.
October 19, 2006 — The trial court entered an order setting the execution date for March 6, 2007.
(Source: The Death Penalty Resource Center, http://off2dr.com/modules/extcal/event.php?event=99)

Nice "friend" you have there, th1onein.


The Pagan Preacher
"'Cuz some folks just need killin'"

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[piedmont]

51. Do you honestly believe it's not torture to be plugged full of holes before you die?

You can't say their deaths were less painful than his.

[Nicole]

58. You can't be serious!

You don't think being shot numerous times is torture? Unbelievable!

I can understand you wanting to help your friend. Posting remarks like that won't help him, they just make you look pathetic.

[Renew Deal]

68. How can you live with yourself?

You support murder and you attempt to ridicule people that support torture. I think it's time to get some help. http://locator.apahelpcenter.org

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

109. There's a difference between advocating for justice...

and supporting murder.

Anybody who supports torture deserves ridicule, and has no business claiming moral high ground.

[PaganPreacher]

127. "Torture" for Peres? Nope. Justice. He earned it.

Your position that Peres' victims died humanely is misinformed, or disingenuous. You have no idea how long it took for any of his victims to die.

In my experience (military, law enforcement, and EMS- 27 years now), I have seen many people shot or stabbed- both of which Peres did to his victims. I think I qualify as someone who knows what he is talking about.

Death by stabbing is painful, and generally slow. Death by gunshot wound is rarely instantaneous, and usually incredibly painful. A person shot in the chest will choke to death on his own blood, as he gasps for breath while his lungs collapse. A person shot through the heart pumps his blood through the holes into his pericardium, and dies of the pressure of the fluid on his heart muscle. A man shot in the head may live on in incredible agony, trying to scream, but unable to form the thought to turn a scream into a word- until his heart stops beating. If a person is shot in the shoulder or upper leg, he can die from arterial blood loss- after a period of searing pain and panic at the sight of his blood running out.

Th1onein, when you convince me that a few minutes of paralysis in a sedated state before death is worse than the pain Peres caused his victims; the mothers, wives, girlfriends, and children of his victims; the people who lived in the neighborhoods Peres terrorized with his gang activity; and society in general, I will accept the validity of your position. You only have a few hours before your beloved 'Berto rides the needle to his eternal reward. Better get on it!

The Pagan Preacher

I don't turn the other cheek.

[Frank Cannon]

38. Jesus, this IS the "La Eme" guy from San Antonio!

I'm not pro-death-penalty by any means, but there are some battles that are worth fighting in the overall "war". And then there are others...

[Th1onein]

39. Oh, okay, so let's go ahead and torture him to death.

You're right. He's a bad guy. That makes him less than human. Let's go ahead and torture him to death. No problem.

[eagler]

41. Drop him in Pakistan, and tell him to go after Osama

If he can get him - he's free.

[Frank Cannon]

43. I'm not for his being tortured. It's sad that he's going to die.

But if you're going to choose someone to be your "poster boy" for elimination of the death penalty, you could very, VERY easily do a lot better than Robert Perez.

I think John Lennon said it best in the song "Revolution". "If you go carrying pictures of Chairman Mao, you ain't gonna make it with anyone anyhow." There are a LOT of people on death row in this country who were involved in a lot less disgusting enterprises than Perez was. I would much rather carry the standard for those people than him. I'm sorry if I sound callous, but I know that I'm being a lot less callous than Robert Perez was when he committed his crimes.

[Th1onein]

44. Actually, you're being a lot more callous than he was.

Texas takes it's Death Row prisoners and, besides locking them up 23 hours a day, they inject them with a chemical that, once diluted with another chemical, allows them to be conscious during the effects of that second chemical. They suffocate to death and guess what? They are aware of it! And if that doesn't kill them, then Texas shoots undiluted potassium into their veins, which feels like liquid fire, by the way. It takes, on the average, about 7 minutes to die in this manner. This is called torture, my friend. By any standards. And if you want to be in support of it just go ahead and do nothing.

[Frank Cannon]

45. No, I really think he is more callous than I am

Because as much of an asshole as I am (and I admit to being a TOTAL asshole), I've never been personally involved in gangland killings. It's just something that's--I don't know--naturally loathsome to me. Flame me if you must.

[Th1onein]

46. People joining gangs know what kind of life (or death) it will lead to.

That's a little different than putting poisons into someone's veins and torturing to death.

[joshcryer]

54. I find it unlikely that people joining gangs know what they're getting into...

...it's more of an impoverished "glorification" type of deal where people ignorantly join something which fills that hole in their life.

The key is that they buy it hook-line-and-sinker and it becomes a part of them, creating these monsters in the first place. Fortunately a good deal of gang-related violence is against other gangs, which alleviates the invariable problems that gangs cause for local communities.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

49. To Call That Poster More Callous Than This Cold Blooded Killer Is One Of The Sickest Things I've

ever seen on here.

I honestly am in absolute awe that you could even say something like that. My god.

[Th1onein]

52. There you go again, OperationMindCrime!

Are you aware that your posts are being copied and lauded on another, shall we say, extremely conservative, political discussion board? Apparently you are doing a great job of getting people off topic.

[joshcryer]

55. I respect your choice to care about someone like the person in question.

And I might even appalude it on some weird level. But I don't think it should be used against posters here who have a different opinion on the subject matter.

I don't see why we can't hate this guy and indeed consider him lowlife scum who deserves nothing even despite your defense of him.

[Th1onein]

60. Fine, he's a piece of dirt. Does that mean we can torture him?

That's all this is about. This man is going to be tortured to death tomorrow. TOMORROW.

Are you going to do something to stop it? Are you going to try?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

69. Don't Care. I Don't Base My Opinions On Who Does Or Doesn't Like Them.

I simply speak my mind honestly based on how I feel. I'm not going to twist or warp my position just for sake of your satisfaction or to ensure others on the opposite side of the aisle disapprove of my opinion. To do so would be a severe violation of my own personal integrity.

I simply say it like it is to the best of my ability and beliefs. Who does or doesn't agree with me is of little concern to me. All that matters to me is having integrity and doing the best I can to determine the right position to hold on any given issue. It is my opinion that matters to me.

If you're going to concern yourself with how others feel about a position, do me a favor and concern yourself with your own and not mine.

You're the one who just called a fellow DU'er more callous than a cold blooded killer of multiple people. I have rarely seen such level of vicious attack here on a fellow member. Maybe we'd be better served if you stopped worrying about me and instead focused a little bit more on how you are coming off or the tone of your responses to others. You have attacked quite a few in these threads for merely expressing their opinion and if anything has weakened your thread's intent it has been those unfair attacks on those who have done so. So please, stop blaming me.

[Th1onein]

96. I think you must be responding to a different thread or something.

This doesn't make a lot of sense.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

104. Nope. Direct Reply To This Thread And Your Comments. And The Post Made Perfect Sense.

There are many things in this thread that don't make much sense, but I wouldn't consider my posts to be part of them.

[Critters2]

121. If this is true, his attorneys should appeal to SCOTUS

under the "cruel and unusual punishment" clause of the US Constitution.

[Th1onein]

125. They did; right before they lost their license to practice before that court!

n/t

[Critters2]

126. Why did they lose their licenses? nt

[Th1onein]

130. I'm not sure why. I haven't read the newspaper stories yet.

I have the clippings here, but I can't find them in my paperwork. Robert was very angry about this after his last appeal was turned down.

[Critters2]

132. Why didn't he get another attorney, ask his attorneys to find someone

else to handle the appeal?

If what you say about lethal injection is valid, it would be unconstitutional. Even if SCOTUS doesn't think so, they have no need to take away someone's license to block an appeal. They can simply turn down the appeal after reading the briefs, or take the case and rule against it. So, why would attorneys handling such a case lose their licenses?

Something seems off, to me.

[Th1onein]

173. He has no money.

There are appeals pending on the question of whether this type of execution is unhumane. But they weren't pending in his case. I'm not even sure his attorney brought up that issue.

They didn't take away the attorney's license to block an appeal. They took away the attorney's license to practice before them because he was ineffective counsel, I assume, in practicing before the Supreme Court. BUT, before they did that, they turned down Robert Perez' appeal. It was only after his appeal was turned down that that attorney's licence to practice before that court was pulled.

[tammywammy]

128. He couldn't find another lawyer

to take this arguement up for him??

[TX-RAT]

99. We could just shoot him multiple times, how about that?

Seems to be a method he prefers.

[dysfunctional press]

141. that's the most sensible thing you've posted in this thread...

and i agree with that sentiment 100% :hi:

[TX-RAT]

98. He was a stone cold killer.

[tritsofme]

48. Sounds like he is getting his just deserts to me.

nt

[malaise]

34. How does a so called civilized country

kill so many people. Fugg the death penalty.

[eagler]

40. there definitely needs to be a moratorium on all executions

especially in Texas because they more than any state have executed innocent people.

[Disturbed]

47. Lethal Injection is not any more "Compassionate" than

the other forms that are practiced in the US Executions. It is State Sanctioned Killing of a human being, period. Yes, this man's crimes merit sanctions, his execution will not garner justice in my view.

[Kelly Rupert]

50. I'd be in favor of unilaterally dropping the death penalty.

Spending the energy instead pleading for random thirty-day delays of execution? What's the point?

[joshcryer]

53. It's kind of a shame he's not going to fry for this...

...instead silly lethal injection which is 98.9% effective and painless.

[Th1onein]

61. That's the reason for the post, joshcryer. It's NOT painless.

It is torture. Have you read the news lately? Have you read the reports? The medical journal article? This kind of killing is not without it's problems, and those problems are MAJOR ones. These people die a tortured death. We are responsible for that.

The Bill of Rights--the Eighth Amendment to our Constitution--forbids this kind of act.

[Bill McBlueState]

102. 98.9 percent effective?

Can you point me to the one out of every hundred people that survive a lethal injection?

Do you prefer "frying" them because it's less effective?

You don't make any sense.

[Nutmegger]

59. KICK because state sanctioned REVENGE killing is wrong

Not. In. My. Name!

Never in my name!

[Dinger]

153. Same Here

I'll call too.

[dysfunctional press]

62. so- come wednesday there will be one less murderous texan in the world...?

sounds good to me.

[trumad]

63. LOL

So your for the Death Penalty?

Let's say you are...

Then answer me this. Is the death penalty 100 percent accurate with who they kill?

If not--- are you still for the death penalty?

[dysfunctional press]

64. actually, i'm against the death penalty...BUT-

this guy apparently admits to being a murderer.

my beef with the death penalty is the FACT that innocents are put to death.

but this guy admits to it, so- i won't be losing any sleep over it.

[Th1onein]

65. And it's okay to torture him to death, right?

You're on a slippery slope, my friend.

[dysfunctional press]

72. i'm not aware of any states, even texas, that tortures inmates to death.

BUT- i'd be COMPLETELY in favour of killing him in the exact same manner that he took his victims lives.

fair is fair.

i hope the murdering scumbag DOES suffer. A LOT.

[Th1onein]

88. Ah! So you ARE in favor of torture!

"i hope the murdering scumbag DOES suffer. A LOT."

[dysfunctional press]

93. noo...i am in favour of murderous scumbags getting back what they've dished out.

if his victims suffered, then so should he.

that's fair.

[Th1onein]

95. Ah! So you aren't in favor of lethal injection then?

Because this type of execution will cause him, undoubtedly, to suffer much more than his victims.

Which way is it? Pro? Con?

[dysfunctional press]

103. i disagree with your choice of the term "undoubtedly".

some background please-

how did each of his victims die? and how many were there?
and- why do you say that lethal injection will "undoubtedly" make him suffer? if you're going to make that type of contention, you need to be prepared to back it up with some SOLID verification that shows that EVERY condemned scumbag who has died by lethal injection was subjected to a painfully tortured death....link please?

[Th1onein]

119. Look at the previous posts for background.

It's posted right here in this thread.

"if you're going to make that type of contention, you need to be prepared....."

Sorry, but you can't talk to the dead. You can't get info out of a paralyzed man/woman. But there are far too many that DO suffer horrible deaths, to continue to put people to death in this manner.

And, by the way, I just posted several links in this thread, with all kinds of information. Why don't you go peruse those links? I'm sure that they will answer a lot of your questions.

[dysfunctional press]

133. if i can't talk to the dead, then neither can you...

so you obviosly also can't presume that each and every person put to death by lethal injection suffered. therefore your use of the word "undoubtedly" is undoubtedly incorrect.

and if your friend caused pain & suffering, then YES, i am most definitely in favour of him getting a little back for himself.

[Critters2]

122. More than multiple gunshot wounds? Hard to imagine. nt

[Renew Deal]

117. And you are in favor of murder.

Don't pretend to be morally superior.

[trumad]

77. But it's either 100 percent against or not against it at all.

would you agree?

[dysfunctional press]

78. not really.

i'm mostly against it, in principle, and think that life without parole would be a better option- with the death "penalty" available for those inmates who don't want to spend the rest of their lives locked in their supermax cell.

but- when there is absolutely NO DOUBT about it being the person responsible for some types of crime- multiple homicides, multiple violent felonies INCLUDING homicide, genocide, war-profiteering, taking a country to war for illegitimate reasons, stuff like that- i can live just fine with state execution.

[trumad]

84. Well then you're for the Death Penalty?

right?

[dysfunctional press]

85. yes- but only under extreme(?) circumstances...if that makes sense.

i think that it is applied FAR too liberally in many parts of this country. (just what the hell is up with texas and florida anyway? is it just coincidence that those are the two states that have had bush brothers as governators?)

seriously, though...i am not in favour of the death penalty in general principle, but i do think that it should be available to society in some of the most extreme cases.
as to the definition and scope of those extremities- i can't honestly say what it might be...only to re-iterate that it currently seems to be applied far too liberally and unfairly in this country- so as to render it somewhat lacking in the respect and reverence for the act that it is.

even then, i do go back and forth on the issue. ideally, no- i don't think there should be capital punishment at all...but then, if we lived in an ideal world- there would be no need for it in the first place. we live in this particular real world that we've created for ourselves, and one of the realities is that there are some particularly heinous individuals that our world would be much better without.

so, if it is a yes or no question, ultimately(at this point and time)i would say yes, i am for it.

but not in it's current form.

[trumad]

87. That's where I respectfully differ.

I think we can't pick or choose each case. It still goes to the accuracy part of the whole issue. Nobody has convinced me that the system is 100 percent accurate.----and just because someone admits they killed someone else... well---confessions can be coerced--- and they have been hundreds of times throughout our judicial history.

Saying kill that guy because he confessed, still, in mho, isn't full-proof.

[dysfunctional press]

100. like i said, i go back and forth on the issue...

but the older and i suppose more cynical i get, the less i go back and the more i go forth...or is it the other way around...

but i understand what you're saying, and why i would set the bar for proof of guilt pretty high.

one question tho'- if you were an innocent man wrongly convicted of a death penalty offense...would you prefer a quick exit, or 50 years in a supermax-type facility(23 hours/day in your windowless cell, NO contact with other inmates or the outside)...?

okay, two questions, and i apologize in advance if you are offended i don't mean to go all bernie shaw on you, but- what sentence would you give to a man who tied you up, then made you watch as he tortured, raped, and ultimately killed in an excrutiatingly painful manner your entire family one at a time, : your mother, father, significant other, children and/or pets, fully admitted to it, and even to enjoying it...?

[trumad]

105. Life in Prison to question 2...

Question one: If I wanted a quick way out, I'd do it myself. Assisted suicide is illegal in most cases so you can't ask the state for help.

It's pretty black and white for me---you're either for it or against it. If you pick and choose then you're playing God in MHO.

[Madspirit]

116. ONE LESS!!!

Texan here. If you're referring to Bush, WAKE UP...he was born in Connecticut, not my state.

Lee

[dysfunctional press]

134. i wasn't referring to bush- i was referring to the op's murderous scumbag friend.

as for bush- i do believe that he is a texas citizen...i.e. a texan.

[Madspirit]

136. Bush was born in Connecticut

...and resides in Washington. Yes, he has a ranch here but we didn't make him.

...and you should join the Repubs with your lack or compassion and understanding and depth. To me, there isn't even a hair of a difference between them and you.
Lee

[dysfunctional press]

160. lack of compassion and understanding and depth...?

i reserve that for the families of the victims of the murderous scumbag that will hopefully be leaving our world shortly.

[Madspirit]

163. How Big of You

Compassion for the victims is easy.
Lee

[dysfunctional press]

175. and wasting compassion on an admitted murderous scumbag is asinine...

when there are plenty of people who actually deserve it.

the murdering scumbag could have shown some compassion for his victims, but chose not to.

fuck him.

[cgrindley]

66. The death penalty is always wrong

this guy should rot in prison until his dying day. He's an obvious argument for life without parole.

[Renew Deal]

67. The people he murdered sure didn't know the hour and the day.

He should consider himself lucky.

[shield20]

73. I will say...

nothing.

[wicket]

74. I will speak up for the least among us

n/t

[frogcycle]

75. Then we'll stop hearing about it, right?

[wicket]

81. You can always hide threads you don't want to see

n/t

[Balbus]

76. Is it possible for someone to post a link on why

lethal injection is considered torture? I must admit, I'm out of the loop on this. I was always under the impression it was the most humane way to end a person's life on death row, but apparently I'm missing some information. Thank you in advance for the info.

As for Mr. Perez, if you're goal is to have his sentence commuted to life imprisonment, I hope you succceed with your endeavor.

[Th1onein]

89. It's easy to google it.

There was a recent article in The Lancet, a very prestigious medical journal, detailing how most of the executed aren't even put under when they get the drug that causes paralysis of their diaphragm. Then, they either suffocate to death, or if they are still alive for the next injection, which is potassium, they suffocate to death while they are feeling liquid fire burn through every vein and capillary. That's torture.

[Balbus]

92. So you dont' have shit....

Well, I'll reiterate: If your goal is to have his death penalty commuted to life imprisonment then I hope you succeed. But, is that the goal?

[Th1onein]

94. How rude.

Okay, since you're apparently too lazy to do a little research, I'll go ahead and do it FOR you.

Below is a story from the New York Times that details why Jeb Bush, Governor of Florida, halted executions. Hours later, a federal judge "ruled that the lethal injection system in California violated the constitutional prohibition of cruel and unusual punishment."

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/16/us/16death.html?ex=1323925200&en=a06b6fdafa927e75&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

Below is a link to a story in the St. Petersburg Times about the botched execution of Angel Diaz was executed. This is the execution that caused Governor Bush to declare a moratorium on executions in the state of Florida:

http://www.sptimes.com/2006/12/13/State/Executed_man_takes_34.shtml

Below is a link to a site that lists the details of the botched executions that have taken place since 1976:

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=8&did=478

Below is a link to a site that details the problems, in terms of chemistry, with lethal injection:

http://www.rsc.org/chemistryworld/Issues/2007/February/HumanWayDie.asp

[Balbus]

112. Those all described "botched" procedures. But according

to those links, if lethal injection is carried out the correct way, then there is no torture involved and all court challenges that would prove that lethal injection is "cruel and unusual punishment" have been dismissed.

And what exactly is your goal? I've asked twice and you've yet to respond: Is your goal to have the death penalty for Mr. Perez commuted to life imprisonment?

[Th1onein]

120. They don't use these drugs for euthanasia in animals.

Why should we use them on human beings?

[Critters2]

129. You keep dodging questions

First, why is this torture if carried out correctly? Secondly, what is your goal?

I oppose the death penalty, btw, and favor life terms for people such as this. But good debate requires honest discussion. Thus, when people ask questions respectfully, it's best to answer those questions.

[BellaLuna]

83. I usually lurk here but this issue is making me post

I am against the death penalty. I am also against any glorification of mad men that take out the number of people Robert Perez did. He's getting off easy with his lethal injection when compared to what he did to others.

The issue of the death penalty is an internal struggle for me. When it comes down to it I do not believe taking of one's life makes a difference to those who were lost to the killer's murderous ways. I think life in prison is a better crime as the killer must sit around the rest of their lives with no freedoms and think about why they are there every day. There is also the question of innocent people going to their deaths only to be found not guilty later through DNA testing etc..

HOWEVER, I find it interesting you rip the heads off of people here who question why someone as violent as this man be treated better than he treated his victims.

I wonder - have you had much exposure to the gang way of life and know how it rips apart communities, families etc? Do you really have any idea how the Robert Perez gang bangers of the world destroy civilized life where they exist? I have seen if first hand. Recently, in the general area around me a 14 year old young girl was shot and killed while talking to friends by a gang initiation, a witness in that murder stabbed over 80 times and his body thrown in the middle of the street so anyone else in the area would know their fate if they dared speak up. This is one example of the mentality of these gangsters - they do not give a shit about human life , so pardon me if I think your glorification of your 'friends' life borders on hypocrisy on some levels. If he had any sense of respect for human life other than his own maybe he wouldn't be in the situation he is.

To be honest with you - 30 more days is worse than putting him to death now. The 30 days will be more torture for him. If he is to be put to death do it now and put him out of his misery. If he is to get a stay then end it and let him sit in prison the rest of his life.

Lethal injection doesn't come close to the torture he has inflected on his victims their families and the communities he and his thugs have ruined. The torture of which you speak ends up being suffered by his family and the loves ones of everyone he murdered. Those are the people I truly feel for.

[Name removed]

90. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BellaLuna]

106. I'm as brutal as he is??? That is EXACTLY what prompted me to post

You are completely over the line with that comment and owe me an apology which I doubt you would ever put out there because that mean some rational thought would have to come into play.

Did you even read my post or did you decide anyone who might have a slight question about your hysteria towards others here is the devil. My very first comment was I was AGAINST the death penalty. Take a deep breath and reread what I said - not what your hysteria perceived it to be.

The fact I don't have much sympathy for fucking killers like your FRIEND does not mean I support anything. I am sick and fucking tired of what they have done to our society - that's my point. I have seen far too many people have their lives destroyed because of the gangster crap to shed a tear for him. THIS DOES NOT MEAN I SUPPORT HIS EXECUTION HOWEVER. I am entitled to my opinion of him and his ilk.

What does that make me????? THAT makes me someone who mourns for the lives lost by those animals. It is possible to put the lives lost at the hands of someone like him a bit above his. If that makes me a monster in your hysterical eyes then so be it.

Before you tell me I condone the killing of innocents you sure as fuck better know me better and you fucking need to learn to read .

Get a grip on your emotions and if you do not want any discussion on the issue YOU BROUGHT up then too bad. This is a discussion board and when you bring up a topic such as this multiple times you are going to get comments similar to mine and the issue of the death penalty will be discussed.

Just get a reality check and READ what is said and don't jump to wild hysterical conclusions when someone says something you don't want to hear.


Now, I remember why I don't post here often. It is a test in insanity every time I come around.

buh bye.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

111. Hear Fucking Hear To That! Good Job Defending Yourself.

I'm sorry that you avoid posting often. You sound quite sane and rational and that's always welcome here. But I hear ya.

[TX-RAT]

113. Well said, you should post more often.

[Kelly Rupert]

150. Fantastic bloody post. Thanks.

Seriously, post more often. It's good to run across a rational voice from time to time.

[woo me with science]

165. Well said!

And the OP needed to hear it.

[wicket]

101. It doesn't sound like you are against the death penalty

:shrug:

[BellaLuna]

107. I'm not... hence my surprise at the attack on my comments

:shrug: is right.

[wicket]

108. If you're not against the death penalty...

....then why did you state this in the first sentence:

I am against the death penalty.

on edit - I'm sorry if you feel attacked, that certainly was not my intention on asking what your feelings on the DP was.

[BellaLuna]

171. oops.. I answered you wrong. I am 'against' the death penalty

I did not feel attacked by you but the OP.

thanks

[uppityperson]

161. You wrote "I am against the death penalty. " Now you say you aren't

I am confused.

[Xenotime]

86. Just like Tookie, another state sanctioned murder will happen...

When will they learn this doesn't fix the problem.

[Kelly Rupert]

137. Why do anti-DP people always pick actual cold-blooded murderers to defend?

Seriously, it doesn't help the cause.

[Freddie Stubbs]

179. Tookie hasn't committed any murders since his sentance was carried out

[Freddie Stubbs]

97. Has Perry ever pardoned a cold blodded murderer?

If not, what makes you think that he would start with this guy?

[Madspirit]

115. Our governor

The Texas governor is the power weakest governor in the country, ironically, for all our macho stuff. He can only give ONE 30 day stay. That's it. Everything else is up to the board of pardons and parole and no, in Texas...Perez has no chance. He will be murdered by the state. My state executes minors, schizophrenics, the mentally retarded like it's fun. So someone guilty of a crime with no mitigation certainly has no chance. It makes me want to vomit.
Lee

[tammywammy]

131. None, because he can't

The Texas Governor can only offer a stay, he cannot pardon.

[Madspirit]

114. Compassion

My Republican mother is from whom I got my anti-death penalty stance. (Of course, my parents were odd Republicans. They also voted for Clinton because they said they just couldn't vote for stupid people...Bush.)

My mom said she had always looked at this issue from the eyes of the parents of the victim and that made her be for the death penalty until one day it hit her, "what if MY child was the killer." She said of course she would plead for her child's life and with that knowledge she could ask no less for someone else's child. Her position then changed to anti-death penalty. She could not be a hypocrite.

Also, there are whole groups of victim's families AGAINST the death penalty. Google that and go visit some of their sites. It's quite touching.

You cannot combat barbarism by committing an act of barbarism. It's really simple, in my opinion. The death penalty is wrong.
Lee

[Madspirit]

118. One of many...

For all YOU killers, because a killer is a killer, here are views from some people who's family members were murder victims. These people oppose the death penalty. There are MANY groups like this. I suggest you peruse their site. THIS is compassion. These are people I will listen to. These people have heart:

http://www.journeyofhope.org/pages/index.htm

Journey of Hope...from Violence to Healing is an organization led by murder victim family members joined by death row family members, family members of the executed, the exonerated, and others with stories to tell, that conducts public education speaking tours and addresses alternatives to the death penalty.

[brentspeak]

124. Wrongly-convicted people sentenced to death get my concern; actual cold-blooded killers don't

[MrSlayer]

138. I'll get right on it first thing Wednesday morning.

I promise.

[Name removed]

139. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Kelly Rupert]

140. No, I think the sadist is the ruthless, remorseless murderer.

And don't give me that "he's remorseful" bullshit. He's upset that he got caught. He's sad that he's going to be killed. He isn't regretful for what he did to his victims or their families. He's a monster.

This man is a monstrous sadist. Failure to show compassion to a sadist is not sadism. It is evidence of a sense of justice.

[Madspirit]

143. Read my lips...

Read my lips. In my opinion you are WORSE than him.

I don't support the death penalty under ANY circumstances. I don't care if he is remorseful or if he's dancing on the graves of his victims. You can't counter barbarism with barbarism. ...and a pound of flesh doesn't bring anyone back.

For killers like you, because a killer is a killer, here are views from some people who's family members were murder victims. These people oppose the death penalty. There are MANY groups like this. I suggest you peruse their site. THIS is compassion. These are people I will listen to. These people have heart:

http://www.journeyofhope.org/pages/index.htm

Journey of Hope...from Violence to Healing is an organization led by murder victim family members joined by death row family members, family members of the executed, the exonerated, and others with stories to tell, that conducts public education speaking tours and addresses alternatives to the death penalty.

[Kelly Rupert]

147. Then you're simply insane.

I am not killing him. He will die whether I say here that he should live or he should die. He is being killed by the state. I am not a resident of Texas, and so I am in no way responsible.

He was aware of our system of laws when he committed murder. He was aware what the legally-binding penalty for murder is. He killed anyway. He killed knowing that the police would be legally bound to find and arrest him, and knowing that the courts, finding him guilty, would sentence him to death. When he committed murder, he signed his own death warrant. I have no sympathy for him. He knew what he was doing. He knew he was going to take innocent lives. He knew he was going to wreck the lives of the victim's families. He knew that if he were caught he would be put to death. He just didn't give a shit.

I am not killing him. The state of Texas is administrating the legally-prescribed punishment for murder. By committing murder with full knowledge of the law, he has given the state of Texas the go-ahead to kill him. It was a stupid decision on his part. It was not mine.

The DP is ineffective and should be overturned. However, this thread is not suggesting we attempt to change the system of laws to be more humane. It is suggesting that we ask for one execution to be delayed for thirty days, and asking that we do so based on some sympathy for a man who has shown absolutely none. It is pointless because it will not change the fact he is going to die. It is pointless because few will champion the cause of a murderer.

And unfortunately, if you believe that one who does not beg to save the life of a murderer is worse than the man who killed in cold blood, than you are so twisted that you do harm to your cause every time you open your mouth. I am against the DP. I wish that the cause was not polluted with those who would equate law with murder in their haughty storms of misplaced outrage.

[Madspirit]

154. Yes I am

...and yes, I'm not just certifiable. I am certified. Bipolar, PTSD, Depression.

If the families of victims can forgive and be against the death penalty that's enough for me.

...and I do apologize for saying you are worse than him. That was emotions talking. You are not. Obviously. What I was trying to express is that you are sitting there, not IN the situation, not the killer, not the family of the victims and still be coldly unmoved by one man's plight.

There but by the grace of and all. (Atheist, just really like that.) None of us ever really knows how close we are to being able to kill, until a situation arises. I don't know what put this man in a position in life to be able to do what he did. I really don't. Poverty? Abuse? Sociopathy? I just know it is a cycle and that you cannot combat barbarism by being committing barbaric acts.
Lee

[Kelly Rupert]

156. I agree that the DP ought be abolished.

However, I also think we need to pick our battles. This man is a deeply unempathetic figure, and that's all I was trying to say. I am also sorry for my heated words. But because he's so unempathetic, championing his cause doesn't do a whole lot of good, I think. I wish we would focus on the innocent and the especially-undeserving--that is to say, those who everyone can agree does not deserve death. Because really, this man is kind of hard to feel sorry for. And it's kind of hard to get behind preserving his life for 30 days, since it's almost the definition of a futile act. Either way, he'll be dead by May, you know? And while I'm sure every day is valuable to him, I kind of think the time would be better spent trying to fix the system for everybody. I agree with your goals, I just think this is a sort-of counterproductive way to go about getting there.

Oh, and I'm certified OCD and depression, so you aren't the only crazy one here ;)

[Madspirit]

145. ...and once again

Why did you feel a need to post on a thread with people for whom this is so important. THAT is the "sadist" part.
Lee

[Kelly Rupert]

149. You're on a public board.

If you believe someone disagreeing with you on a political debate board is a crime worse than murder you're a seriously fucked cookie.

[Madspirit]

155. Radical interpretation of the text

I didn't say they were worse for disagreeing with me and my saying anything doesn't kill anyone. ...and you are the fucked cookie....
Lee

[Kelly Rupert]

157. Well, you said I was worse than the murderer because I disagreed

with the idea that I was morally bound to beg Rick Perry to stay his execution for a month...

[Madspirit]

159. but friends now right?

I didn't realize you were both people I was responding to. Sorry again for my over reaction.

The death penaly is a difficult issue.
Lee

[Moochy]

152. Sadist : nailed it n/t

[MrSlayer]

166. It's a heartfelt issue to me as well.

Except I'm on the other side of it. Perhaps you are the type that would embrace the killer of your loved ones, I am not. The sadistic person in question here is the killer not the person who merely wants justice to be done in this case and says so.

[Mick Knox]

142. Please explain the torture part?

He gets a lethal dose of a drug used every day in operations and medical procedures.

He gets to go nicely to sleep, something he did not afford his victims.

There is no torture here. It makes little sense to claim torture, unless you claim every medical procedure using this drug nationwide is torture and there is hardly that outcry.

I am mixed on the death penalty at times - mostly because of the equality in rendering that punishment and possibility of factual innocence.

This guy is not the ideal post child of Anti DP movement - he is an admitted cold blooded killer.

I'll add, your attacks on posters and allies on this board and in this thread did nothing to help your friend, IMO.

[Madspirit]

144. This IS when it counts

Actually, he's the perfect "poster boy" for anti-death penalty folks. This IS when it counts. It's not hard to be against the death penalty when the killer is warm and fuzzy. Once again, this IS when it counts.

My Republican mother is from whom I got my anti-death penalty stance. (Of course, my parents were odd Republicans. They also voted for Clinton because they said they just couldn't vote for stupid people...Bush.)

My mom said she had always looked at this issue from the eyes of the parents of the victim and that made her be for the death penalty until one day it hit her, "what if MY child was the killer." She said of course she would plead for her child's life and with that knowledge she could ask no less for someone else's child. Her position then changed to anti-death penalty. She could not be a hypocrite.

Also, there are whole groups of victim's families AGAINST the death penalty. Google that and go visit some of their sites. It's quite touching.

You cannot combat barbarism by committing an act of barbarism. It's really simple, in my opinion. The death penalty is wrong.
Lee

[Mick Knox]

146. I can see that argument

Its logical and rings with a lot of truth.

I don't see when someone runs around claiming it's torture (it's obviously not torture) added to their own dose of attacking vitriol and rhetoric.

There are many good arguments - running around degrading everyone with an opinion is not the answer.

Very good post though. Thank you.

[Madspirit]

148. Yours is an honorable concern

It's rare to have good discourse on this subject because emotions run high. When my mom said that...I got chills. If my brother ever committed a heinous act, I would not want him to die. I would want him put away somewhere but I would not want my brother to die. So I cannot ask different for someone else.
Lee

[MedleyMisty]

151. And again, I learn that hate is not exclusive to the right side of the spectrum.

I keep trying to write stuff but it keeps coming out wrong.

So I'll just say - it's quite possible to honor the lives of the victims and to feel compassion and empathy for their families and to also feel compassion and empathy for the murderer.

I will admit that I have not personally experienced having a loved one murdered. I have been sexually abused, though, and honestly I did not feel the hate for my abuser that I see people here expressing for an anonymous stranger that they have never met.

If people who actually knew the victims posted a thread here in support of his murder by the state, I would say nothing. It's not my place to tell the people who are actually affected by it how to feel, even if I disagree with the idea of state killing across the board. Why can't someone who knows the perpetrator be given the same respect?

We are all human. And I know it's become a hackneyed phrase since it's been in so many sig lines, but I deeply believe in Gandhi's words. An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.

[wicket]

168. "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind."

Amen.

[noamnety]

158. I am sorry for you, and your friend, in this situation

I am against the death penalty.

And I have friends who I believe have done things just as bad as your friend. Some of them talk about it, some of them don't. I worry more about the ones that don't. I live with the looming knowledge of what they've done, and what's worse is that they live with that knowledge, too. And some of them own pieces of my heart in a way that folks here wouldn't understand. That's clear from this thread.

Those people did what they did because they were in uniform, and because they thought they were supposed to be following orders, or because they thought they were fighting some mythical enemy. Maybe they thought loyalty to their brothers was more important than the larger question of what's right or wrong. And that's no excuse. I am proud to know them. I love them. And I abhor what they did.

I can't pass a polygraph because I can't ever figure out what is moral and what is not because nothing ever seems black and white to me. Morality is like a cubist painting, where one can see every side of a thing all at once.

I am against the death penalty.

[uppityperson]

162. I am against the death penalty.

I am against people doing horrendous things to each other also. I will not glorify someone who is only a victim. Being a victim does not make anyone heroic or wonderful. But I am against the death penalty. Period. Lock them in prison, no parole, but not the death penalty. Is that cruel? Yes. But I do not believe in the death penalty.

[Nutmegger]

164. When the state kills, we kill.

No to the death penalty.

[phone]

[wicket]

167. What time is his execution today?

n/t

[Ms. Toad]

169. "Evening" is the closest time I've found.

In Ohio they have moved the executions to mid-morning to make it harder for death penalty opponents to be present to witness against the death penalty. The traditionally scheduled time for executions is in the wee hours of the morning, so they have nearly 24 hours before the death warrant expires in case of last minute delays. I'm not sure what the reason for scheduling it in the evening would be (which gives the state fewer hours to remedy any problems - and is still at a time when opponents can attend. In the eyes of the officials that ought to be the worst of both possible worlds.

[spoony]

170. I didn't realise that about the times

Thank you for that info, I'd always wondered in the back of my mind what that was all about.

[wicket]

172. Thanks for the info

:thumbsup:

[dogday]

174. I think around 6:00 in the evening is

when they have been executing people in Texas...

[REP]

177. He's Dead

http://www.itemonline.com/local/local_story_066012050.html?keyword=topstory

Prison gang leader executed in deaths of San Antonio men

Stewart Smith
Staff Reporter
The leader of a notorious prison gang was all smiles before being put to death by lethal injection Tuesday evening.

Robert Martinez Perez’s sons, wife and brother greeted him with smiles and waves as they entered the viewing chamber.

Perez was convicted of the 1994 shooting death of two Hispanic males, Joe Travieso and Robert Rivas in San Antonio.

Perez shot both of them with a .380-caliber pistol, 9-millimeter pistol and a .38-caliber pistol during an internal power struggle within the Mexican Mafia.

Police arrested Perez at his home in November 1994 — seven months after the shootings — where they discovered $30,000 in U.S. currency, a magazine clip with ammunition and a large quantity of jewelry.

[Freddie Stubbs]

178. Was there ever any doubt?

Perry doesn't have a history of going liberal on this issue.

[Madspirit]

180. I hate to say it...

...but even Ann Richards, when she was our governor, didn't have a history of going liberal on this issue. I love Ann but just sayin'...

I hate the death penalty.
Lee

[Freddie Stubbs]

181. Is that a reflection of Governor Richards herself ,or just a relfection

of Texas voters?

[Madspirit]

182. I loved Ann

I was almost gushy fangirl about Ann. ...but she was a politician and I just don't know whether this reflected her personal support of the death penalty or if she was just playing politics because the majority of Texans support the death penalty.
Lee

[Freddie Stubbs]

183. Whatever the reason, she was a supporter fo the death penalty