Inmates Will Replace Migrants in Colorado Fields

[helderheid]

By DAN FROSCH
Published: March 4, 2007

DENVER, March 3 — As migrant laborers flee Colorado because of tough new immigration restrictions, worried farmers are looking to prisoners to fill their places in the fields.

In a pilot program run by the state Corrections Department, supervised teams of low-risk inmates beginning this month will be available to harvest the swaths of sweet corn, peppers and melons that sweep the southeastern portion of the state.

Under the program, which has drawn criticism from groups concerned about immigrants’ rights and from others seeking changes in the criminal justice system, farmers will pay a fee to the state, and the inmates, who volunteer for the work, will be paid about 60 cents a day, corrections officials said.

Concerned about the possible shortage of field labor, Dorothy B. Butcher, a state representative from Pueblo and a supporter of the program, said, “The workers on these farms do the weeding, the harvesting, the storing, everything that comes with growing crops for the market.”

“If we can’t sustain our work force, we’re going to be in trouble,” said Ms. Butcher, a Democrat.

MORE >>>
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/04/us/04prisoners.html?8br


Joe Pisciotta Jr., a farmer in Pueblo County, is concerned about finding enough migrant workers under Colorado’s tougher immigration laws.

[tridim]

1. Yep, just replacing one group of slave labor with another.

I'm having a Shawshank flashback. Kickbacks on their kickbacks and all that.

[butterfly77]

24. They used them in place of the National Guard,...

when they had the storm in Florida last month...

[talkinghead]

34. One major difference among groups.

That is, the migrant farmers came here willingly and wanted to work. A story about this in the LA Times also stated that some farmers had raised the rate of pay up to $9.60 an hour trying to entice Americans to take these jobs but so far most are having a hard time finding laborers, which is why prisoners are being forced to do the work. So much for the theory that Americans would do the work if immigrants weren't taking our jobs. Now they are taking people who were deemed too dangerous to live in society, putting them back into society, and in the process taking away jobs from hardworking migrant workers who only want to give their families better opportunities.

[Selatius]

40. $9.60/hour is not a living wage by any stretch of the imagination. That's a crappy wage.

It most certainly isn't a good wage if there is no health care, no pension. If workers wanted to be paid 9.60/hour for a living, they'd go work at Wal-Mart and exert less physical effort doing so instead of spending much more physical labor working in a field. If you want to attract workers to your fields, you better offer better benefits and pay than that.

[talkinghead]

42. First of all...

thanks for proving my point. These are jobs that Americans do not want to do. And secondly, for a job where the qualifications are being able to stand up and knowing how to pick things I would say that is a pretty decent wage.

[Selatius]

45. Much of this kind of labor is back-breaking work in often hot conditions.

I can tell you that saying, "to stand up and knowing how to pick things," is a whole hell of a lot easier than actually doing it, which goes back to my point of a low wage. Back breaking work, if it does not pay well, will attract fewer workers. A construction worker can get a better wage than that.

[talkinghead]

47. Which is why more Americans work as construction workers

rather than day laborers on farms. If farmers were forced to pay higher wages think of the consequences. Less workers would be hired, effectively denying someone employment, and some farmers might just quit producing altogether. So, the consequences of mandating a "living wage" would be denying the poor a job or reducing the supply of produce thereby increasing the price of food, another burden on the poor.

[Selatius]

48. Did I say "mandate" anywhere in my previous posts? If you don't pay well, you get fewer workers.

The point still stands that if you don't want to pay a wage workers agree is fair compensation for the amount of labor they invest, then don't expect to attract many farm hands. If construction is better able to attract workers, then you would be led to ask why? Is it because the amount of physical labor invested in construction is any less back-breaking? Or is it something else?

[talkinghead]

50. I would say it is something else

Construction work requires much more skill and I would say more physical than the picking vegetables. And yes, I understand that offering a higher wage would attract more workers but in this case it is wasteful. Plenty of immigrants were willing to work at lower wages. They would earn these wages during the season and then (attempt) to go back home. Now that they "free" flow of labor has been restricted, farmers are having to offer higher wages, but this is inefficient. If someone who is worth 9.60 an hour becomes a day laborer, that is possibly removing them from a job they were better suited for. As an exaggerated example, if the farmers offered me $3000 dollars an hour, I would go pick vegetables, but that would remove me from a job where my education and skills would have been better utilized. This will only have the effect of improperly allocating resources.

[Selatius]

54. Your example doesn't seem sensible.

The exaggeration is to the point of irrelevance, as nobody is arguing that skilled people should be out in the fields. I never argued, for instance, that somebody skilled as an electrician or a plumber should be out in the fields. True, construction work does require more skill in many cases except basic construction, but I found the example apt in illustrating how much physical labor invested has an affect on wages.

Generally, the harder the labor is, the higher wages have to be to attract sufficient labor. If farmers do not want to pay wages workers feel is fair for the amount of labor and time invested, then they will increasingly find themselves employing illegal immigrants to work the fields.

[frankenforpres]

49. i would take the field over wally world

i would much rather be outside. i dont have experience with farm work, but i do with carpentry/construction. id rather do that than wal mart for the same wage too.

[Selatius]

56. What about something else besides Wal-Mart?

I cited Wal-Mart simply because it is one of the largest service sector employers out there, and average wages there are roughly the same as the 9.60 he quoted.

[napi21]

51. 4 years ago my husband went to work for a major SE supermarket chain

asan ecperienced meat cutterfor $9.60 an an hour. He is makeing more than that now, and they offered health care(for $300/mo). I'm not saying that's a great wage, but you're comparing someone with a skill to someone who is picking corn?

[Selatius]

55. In my opinion, working as a meat cutter does not require extensive training.

One of my friends who was in college at the time worked as a meat cutter at Winn-Dixie for roughly the same wage. Of course, Winn-Dixie has now declared bankruptcy. What was your husband's store? Kroger?

[napi21]

57. No Publix. But you're wrong in saying it requires no training.

Yes, anybody can cut meat! But pay a little attention to what you see in the meat cases in different supermarkets. Even if you don't know what to look for, you will see some items that LOOK REALLY GOOD, and some that are just there. How some items are cut makes them tender, and if cut wrong, they're tough as hell.

Isuggest you ask your friend just what he did as a "meat cutter". It really doesn't takeanyeducation to cut chicken, or grind meat. THAT's what the newbies usually do.

[Selatius]

58. He cut slices of beef and ham including ribs and roasts

I didn't say it required no training, as he was trained, but it doesn't take the level of training that an electrician needs, would it?

[napi21]

59. I didnt say it tookthe level of training of an electrician, or

a cement finisher, or even a low practicioner. But you don't learn how to do the job well with just a few lessons either.

Remember, we were talking about the pay for someone picking weeds and harvesting corn etc.

[Selatius]

60. I didn't say it was that easy. My friend worked there for several years and advanced to that level.

What I'm saying is this:

If people were given a choice, for instance, in Florida in July between working as a cashier at, say, Publix and working out on a Florida farm in July in 95% humidity and 92 degree heat where you have to regularly de-weed and lug around 40 lb crates of oranges with both places paying 9.60/hour, would more people take the Publix job over the job in the field?

[Xipe Totec]

2. The law of unintended consequences

Next, we'll impose prison sentences for jay-walking, so we can keep the cheap labor flowing in.

If that doesn't work, maybe we take a good second look at indentured servitude.


Or slavery.

[helderheid]

5. Keep your eyes on the Immigration Detention Centers. n/t

[Xipe Totec]

7. Good point!

Now you're scaring me.

Arrest them as they cross the border, put them in prison, then send them to work in the fields where they were heading in the first place.

Except, now it's free labor.

Is this a great country or what? :sarcasm:

[glitch]

18. Now you're thinking like a Republican! ;) nt

[Xipe Totec]

19. Ow! That hurt!

:cry:

:rofl:

[glitch]

21. It was too cruel wasn't it? Some things should never be said, even in jest.

:hug:

[Xipe Totec]

22. No sweat

I knew you were joking.

It was an excellent slam, though.

:hug:

[glitch]

33. I knew you knew. I was just playing :) nt

[angstlessk]

3. Will you be surprised to see a sweep of marijuana smokers come

harvest time? If they need non violent inmates to do farm labor, what better way to collect the labor pool than to just sweep up marijuana smokers and put them in jail for, oh say, about 3 months long enough to last out the harvest for the farmers. Nevermind the destroyed lives, hey they got corn to pick!

[Skidmore]

4. Is that really such a bad thing?

If prisoners are given a choice and if they could be allowed to put their earnings in an account to help them get a start when they get out again, I don't see that as being a bad thing entirely. Why should people in prison not be allowed to work as part of rehabilitation?

[helderheid]

6. for $.60 a day??

[Skidmore]

10. They should be allowed minimum wage and it should

be held in trust until release.

I'm sorry, but our prison system is so screwed up anyway. It does not seek to return rehabilitated people to the outside.

Actually our whole criminal justice system is a mess.

[napi21]

52. I disagreeon the minimum wage idea. Prison is punishment for doing something wrong.

I'm not sure there should be any pay at all. The prisoners are getting housed, clothed, and fed while paying for their crime.

I also don't see a problem having them work the fields. It's no different than working in the prison laundry or any other job inside. I would think the prisonerswould be much happier doing something with their time rather than having the days just drag on endlessly.

[HCE SuiGeneris]

11. Prisoners. Pretty loose definition to be okaying

such actions. Prisoners can be harvested too.

[DBoon]

16. when it replaces free labor

it is very bad.

Ultimately, you may see businesses that hire free labor at the going rate unable to compete with prison labor. This is why traditionally prison workshops made things that did not compete with outside businesses (car license plates, etc.)

Also, you now have an economic incentive to incarcerate people. People are arrested and convicted not primarily because they are a threat to society, but because some business needs more cheap labor.

And yes, I do think capitalism has its good points, and replacing slavery and indentured servitude with a free labor market is one of them.

[Divernan]

8. Now will y'all admit how well those mandatory sentences for non-violent crimes are working?

Not to mention the privatised prisons which are so profitable when you feed the prisoners as little as possible and deny them medical treatment? Now all those red state ranchers and cattlemen and farmers will get basically slave labor at even less cost then paying those pushy migrant laborers - and none of those sickly kids or pregnant wives slowing harvests down! Those damn furriners wouldn't work for SIXTY CENTS A DAY! The article also mentions the farmers paying a fee to the state, but as usual, the MSM crack reporter didn't report what that fee will be.

Do the math. The taxpayers fork out about $30,000 a year to keep one prisoner in jail. That's $82 a day. Do you see the farmers paying that equivalent to the state prison system? Highly doubtful

[liberalnurse]

9. That's an excellent idea!

The inmates can learn transferable work skills...become employable and no longer live a life of crime.

[Divernan]

20. No, they are NOT learning transferable work skills.

First of all, no farmer is going to pay a LIVING, i.e,. minimum wage for a service he can get for 60 cents a day!
Secondly, a minimum wage would not be enough to support a family.
Thirdly, (and I say this having worked one summer as a laborer back in Illinois farm fields when I was a teenager -and that was 50 cents an hour in the 1950's), the work is physically back-breaking and SEASONAL and MIGRATORY. It cannot provide a stable lifestyle for anyone.

Who would want to live in migrant labor camps, traveling around the country for months at time, following the harvest seasons? Rent the video for Grapes of Wrath and you'll see what I'm trying to describe.

[prolesunited]

35. You really advocate a program

that would pay them .60 cents a DAY!

How is this really that different from slavery?

What work skills would they be learning? How would they be transferred? Even if they do return to the fields following release, do you really think laboring in the fields will be a viable, attractive alternative to a life of crime?

And, let me guess, if they step out of line in the fields, you're in favor of Tasering them as well?

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

62. She's probably in favor of tasering them if they say "no thanks" when "asked" to "volunteer"

Which brings us to another point:

What kind of hell will prison guards impinge upon those who say "no, thanks, I'd rather stay where I am"? (against the economic interest of the big farms)

Another thing: the word "about". "About" 60 cents a day. I suspect they'll invent deductions up the wazoo and "company store" practices (a quarter for a glass of water, anyone?) so they'll end up owing money.

Why not? After all, they're undesirables, and believing there is such a thing as excessive punishment is only for commie pinko terrorist-lover America-hating gay fag junkie Hollywood elitists.

[HEyHEY]

36. Except this program will most likely make them hate work.

[Zuiderelle]

63. Learn transferable work skills!?! Become employable?!?

What this will cause is prisoners being kept longer in prison because prisons can now be profitable. Farmers will pay a "fee" to the state, who will pour some of that money back into the prison system, with only a trickle going out to the inmate. They will be able to afford to build more prisons, and hell, maybe even start "cracking down" on more "life of crime" pot smokers who've had two strikes already for smoking pot. It's a nightmare, it's Orwellian, and anyone who thinks it's a good idea is fucking {fill in the blank}.

[Faux pas]

12. There's nothing wrong with inmates doing some hard labor, thing

is, they should be paid at least as much as the migrant workers are/were paid. They already have free room and board, so they are already better off in that respect. California was doing what they call Joint Venture programs where the inmate worked for certain companies and were paid enough that 1/3 of their pay went to room and board, 1/3 to restitution and the last third they got to keep. Nothing wrong with that imho.

[helderheid]

13. It sounds like a different situation there - that doesn't sound bad so long as they are paid fairly

[GreenPartyVoter]

28. Nothing new either.

[Joanne98]

14. 60 cents a day. That's less than they were paying the immigrants.

I'm beginning to hate farmers.

[helderheid]

15. I read your post wrong. Need more coffee.

[entanglement]

17. Well, shouldn't you immigrant-bashers be celebrating right now?

You got your wish.

[Cobalt Violet]

30. And of course they'll pass the savings on to the consumers!

:sarcasm:

[ben_meyers]

23. Don't do the crimes

If you can't pick them vines!

Barretta
It just started runnin thru my head.

[BlooInBloo]

25. Ya gotta admit - it's EXCELLENT republican triangulation...

Up until now, the bigot-get-those-stinkin-mexicans-outta-my-purdy-country contingent was at loggerheads with the bigot-we-need-practically-free-mexican -labor contingent. This neatly accomodates both sides.

At the cost of one's humanity, of course, but you gotta take the good with the bad...

[SayWhatYo]

26. I've always supported ideas like this... under certain circumstances.

First of all, they need to be watched to ensure people don't start ending up in prison for stupid shit. All money made from it should go back into the prison... I know there is talk of private prisons, well, they shouldn't be allowed to take part in it because that would be a good way to ruin a program. It should also be volunteer only. I would think they should raise the daily pay though. I don't think the full minimum wage since they get fed and have a roof and bars over their head, but it should be more than 60 cents a day.

Anyways, if there is a lot of oversight, then I fail to see any real issues with this. Maybe I'm missing something though, I dunno.

[yella_dawg]

27. Smoke a little weed...

They set you to chopping weeds.

How is this not evil?

[SayWhatYo]

31. If I was in prison...

I would take up such an offer. Well, if it paid more than 60 cents a day. Hell, I'd rather be out doing hard work and making some cash than sitting in a jail cell.

You go to prison for having weed? I always thought it was just a fine in most places, hmmm...

[dogday]

29. Prison Industries Stock or PIS for short

ONe of the fasting growing stocks on the market... Now that is sad...

[originalpckelly]

32. I think that's a hell of a lot better than rotting in a prison cell.

Of course, on the other hand, one has to wonder what kind of degradation to the rule of law this might cause if a sheriff can make money off of arresting people and putting them behind bars, then farm them out to pick weeds.

[prolesunited]

37. And don't think that can't or won't happen

But, I guess we have to compete with China somehow.

[Matariki]

38. Apart from all the obvious things wrong with this - and the potential for abuse

I personally would rather be working outside in nature than sitting in a cinder-block, fluorescent lit cell all day.

[lonestarnot]

41. Yes. "We need to round up a few more slaves, just arrest anyone you come across tonight."

[Selatius]

44. I really hope it doesn't come to that.

Profit, when introduced, tends to lead to unintended consequences.

[talkinghead]

46. Profit, when introduced

leads to a healthy agriculture market which will either induce farmers to plant more or attract more people to become farmers, which will keep produce prices in check. However, that is not the issue here. It isn't like all farmers are going to have an unlimited supply of slave labor. In fact, the farmers interviewed want the migrant farmers to return. But if a farmer did have his labor needs met by this extremely cheap labor think of the consequences. One I can see is that the quality of work isn't going to be as good. Who has more motivation to do a good job, an inmate who is forced to work for a sixty cents a day or a migrant laborer who wants to provide a better life for his or her family. Another consequence (if the supply of inmate labor was extremely high) would be over production. The inmate labor is a subsidy to some farmers.

[lonestarnot]

64. Greed is always intended.

[UTUSN]

39. & their (slave) flags RISE:

http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/2005/08/minutemen-home-for-extremists_08.html

[hatrack]

43. Yes, but is 60 cents/day too much to pay?

I mean, in the new Global Marketplace, there just HAS to be cheaper labor out there SOMEWHERE that we can exploit!!!

:eyes:

[madrchsod]

61. africa--opps we all ready did that

[diamidue]

53. Why should we subsidize the farmer this way?

I could understand it better if the prisoners were asked to work on public works projects - similar to what the CCC does - replanting forests, working on trails, campgrounds, building shelters, repairing levies...etc. (We could sure use their help in New Orleans).
It worries me that instead, private businesses (farming or otherwise) could use prisoners in order to increase their profits.