Sunday in the Supermarket

[Coexist]

I try to be a tolerant person, religiously. I find it laughable that there are people in power in this world who DON'T consider Leviticus a crackpot, but otherwise, believe what you want.

I bow my head during opening and closing prayers at our league meetings, and send silent support to those who try to do right in this world, instead of thanking Jesus and asking him for guidance - no big deal. I sit quietly during funeral masses and weddings, respectfully, but I don't say "Amen" along with everyone else.

I could care less about saying "Under God" during the pledge. The fact that is was written by a Baptist minister without that phrase that is such a flash-point for so many is ironic, but I say it anyway and don't care to fight to remove it.

Many people have called me a "good Christian", and I take that as a compliment, as Jesus seemed to be a very tolerant and caring person, instead of correcting them on my beliefs.

I listen to the vitriol that the mere subject of atheism invokes on Paula Zahn with sadness and quiet worry. But I go on, and only discuss my beliefs ONLY if directly asked.

I tell my teenage daughter to keep her atheism to herself so she doesn't get targeted at school.

I see the freezing up of people's eyes and the tenseness set in their shoulders when they find out I am not a Christian. I see mistrust and disgust creep into their eyes when they find out I am not Jewish, Buddhist or Muslim either.

I am told "people like me" need to stop taking God out of THEIR lives. How THEY can't do anything Christian anymore. They can't forward emails or pray in schools or live they Christian lives they want.

And then I go to the supermarket early on Sunday morning to avoid the crowds. And I am told I cannot buy what I want because it is Sunday morning. I just want beer to go with the steaks I am cooking for company that evening. I am not a Christian but can't buy beer because the majority of my state is supposed to be in church.

Please, tell me again how Christians are discriminated against, because I just don't see it.

I see how I have to constantly hide who I am, and have to alter my schedule for a second trip to the store on its busiest day. And how I fear for my children's safety. And how my Darwin sticker gets stolen from my car. And how people who don't know anything about me, or homosexuals, real science, or Muslims get to hate them all with the support of their churches. Because I don't get it.

[cgrindley]

1. I'm an atheist and yet I support an alcohol free Sunday

We need at least one day a week when it's slightly more difficult for some people to get loaded and beat the shit out of their spouses, lovers and children. Alcohol is a factor in almost all cases of domestic abuse. No one needs to drink every day of the week. For that matter, I'd be in favor of dry Sundays at restaurants too.

[Coexist]

2. Ummm... people can buy a case of Gin on Monday

and have a bottle for every day of the week and then some.

The beer I had with dinner that night was the only alcohol I consumed all week.

Your comments are strange.

[cgrindley]

4. Of course they can buy a case on monday

but really hard core drunks usually don't. On my days off (I only go to work Tuesday to Thursday), I'll sometimes go to the little corner store. And I see guys walk in to buy 40's at 8 am. Why are they buying a 40 at 8 am? Because they've run out.

You're a responsible drinker. Me too. I make my wine at a local vineyard. I have my own oak barrels and everything. I'm not a drunk.

But I've known lots of drunks. Drunks don't plan that far in advance. I'm willing to sacrifice a glass of wine on Sunday if it'll make the world a slightly better place.

[Dr.Phool]

10. Us professional drunks plan ahead.

Go to B-21 (the local liquor store), buy a case of Stoli, and get a $50 rebate to boot!

[KansDem]

20. My wife worked as a checker for a local supermarket chain for 7 years...

Us professional drunks plan ahead.

The stories she can tell! One such "professional drunk" didn't plan ahead and would come in on Sunday morning and buy cooking sherry (this was Kansas during the 1970s and 1980s and no drinking alcohol of any kind could be purchased). This woman would buy large bottles of it. I asked my wife if she didn't think it was just coincidence and perhaps she was just an avid chef, and she doubted it was since this particular woman would do it repeatedly, Sunday morning after Sunday morning.

[kestrel91316]

53. I'm only an occasional light drinker, and failure to plan ahead to get

a bottle of wine or sixpack of beer is a hallmark of my liquor purchasing behavior. I like being able to run over to the market at the last minute to pick up a brew on Sunday.

If we're going to ban liquor sales one day a week, it should be Tuesday. Because I say so.

[cgrindley]

58. Tuesday's fine by me

shall we put it to a vote?

I honestly don't care which day. I just think that one day should be dry.

[frogcycle]

so a pathological societal problem is put on "hold" for a few hours

how about a plan to actually ADDRESS it instead of supporting this inane nonsense?

[cgrindley]

93. It's a start

Let's address the problem. What do you think we should do to discourage the persistent abuse of alcohol? I'm totally willing to support any and all good ideas.

[Richard Steele]

118. Every "solution" is eventually "just a start" in the fascist/authoritarian worldview.

You just said, in this very thread, that you didn't want full "Prohibition",
just "one day".....

Now you describe that one day as "just a start".

And I truly doubt that anyone here is surprised you feel that way.

[cgrindley]

124. Uhhhhhhh

Just a start means... just a start in addressing the problems caused by alcohol.

I make my own wine by the barrel. I'm not against drinking. I just think happen to agree with the idea that one day of no alcohol sales per week is a good idea.

I also happen to think that alcohol causes massive social harm and that we as a society need to address the trouble caused by alcohol in a variety of ways. EG free residential treatment for alcoholics... tougher drinking and driving laws which end not in criminal convictions but in rehabilitation... tougher penalties for providing alcohol to minors... tougher penalties for serving intoxicated customers... increased restrictions on alcohol advertising and product placement in films and television etc.

Unless you can prove that alcohol makes anything better.

[Richard Steele]

136. Oh, so that "good law" only applies to OTHER PEOPLE, not elite winemakers like you?

TEXTBOOK dishonest ELITIST fascist crap.

Intrusive social regulation is a good thing for
the unwashed masses, but YOU are a special case.
You don't NEED uselessly intrusive laws to infringe
your rights, but everyone else does.

YOU can be trusted with BARRELS of alcohol at all times,
but the "little people" must have their access to it tightly
controlled, because they just aren't a SPECIAL person like you.

How utterly TYPICAL.

[cgrindley]

140. You realize that we're arguing about sales

sales off premises...

For 1000 dollars, I can make 150 bottles of good quality red wine, including the initial purchase of a 300 dollar barrel. It's not a hobby for the wealthy, especially not after the first year. It does require some patience however. It has to sit in the barrel for 52 Sundays before it finds its way into my recycled, sulfite-free bottles.

[Richard Steele]

156. TEXTBOOK dishonest fascist elitism. The "good laws" you acclaim are for OTHER people, not you.

I make wine myself, so stop trying to impress me with
how "SPECIAL and knowledgable" that little HOBBY makes you.

Start making your own BARRELS from salvaged pallet wood,
and we might have something to talk about. Until then,
you're wasting your time.

There are more things in my CV than are DREAMPT OF in your philosophy, Horatio.

[cgrindley]

160. How am I selling wine in a retail setting on Sunday?

How does these laws even begin to apply to me?

[Richard Steele]

167. So you admit I am correct: The laws you claim are so terribly necessary DON'T apply to you.

TEXTBOOK elitism. TEXT-fucking-BOOK.

You believe intrusive, counter-productive, nanny-state-fascist regulations are
completely correct and totally necessary......for other people.

Not for YOU, though, because
you're just so frackin' SPECIAL, right?

-YOU- own a fancy store-bought $300 barrel, so no one
should ever expect you to obey the
same laws as all those stupid "little people"
who buy their wine at the supermarket, right?

Because THAT would be silly.

[cgrindley]

171. The laws don't apply to me because I'm not a store

If I was a store, they'd apply to me too. How is that elitist?

[frogcycle]

168. Well, start by not claiming this absurd prohibition is a start

It is a smokescreen.
It is religious zealots claiming that a few hours of the week are "god's hours" and everyone else has to stop their sinning for those hours. It is neither effective enforcement of state religion (which it is a small attempt at) nor a deterrent to alcoholism. It is crap like this that lets people think they are doing something and then go on about their complacent little lives.

Sorry for going off, but I just watched the generals on CSPAN and am ready to put my fist through a wall.

[havocmom]

24. Yes, most problem drinkers plan ahead. Alcohol sales bans on Sundays are pointless.

They just make the aggressively pious feel like they have real power. When the aggressively pious works on means to subvert MY free will (which THEY say THEIR God granted me) I take that as hypocrisy (at best) and blasphemy.

Our state has serious limits on where & when one can buy booze. We also have one of the highest per capita drunk driving problems. There seems to be WAY too much acceptance of youngsters getting falling down drunk while they LOVE to point fingers and belittle Native Americans for drunkenness. Their laws favoring restrictive access in the marketplace don't seem to be helping society at all. Their behavior belies the platitudes they mouth.

Those who really care about doing good work about the problems some have with alcohol abuse can actually go into service of teaching, counseling, listening and reaching out to those with problems, like their Christ did.

Those who want the law to come down on people who need help are more like those Christ railed against.

And, I understand the surprise, then sudden revulsion, people show when one lets them find out one does not share their particular faith. I am the same good neighbor, champion of the weak, honest worker and friend I was before they found out I do not profess to be Christian, but somehow, I am no longer as good a person as the man in the next pew from them who rapes his daughter, beats his neighbor and steals from his granny. Somehow, I am a threat while the man in the Oval Office is nearly a saint because he professes to be Christian while stealing, dishonoring, abusing, killing....

Yeah, they are persecuted all right. :eyes: Harrumph!

[cgrindley]

25. No one has mentioned jesus. What are you on about?

So far, everyone who has suggested that the Sunday ban isn't a bad idea has already self-identified as an atheist. No one is using a religious argument in this thread.

Why can't we have one alcohol-free day? Is it too much to ask?

[havocmom]

30. Ah, the OP was about Christians and religious persecution,

Where ya been?

YOU can have any alcohol-free day you want. You can also pray EVERYDAY you want. But why do YOU get to decide any of that for anyone else.

Free Will- It's a gift some of us prefer not to ignore.

[cgrindley]

31. Stop mentioning praying, it's irritating

1. you were replying in a sub-thread clearly identified as an ATHEIST one

2. I believe that in a social democracy, the rights of the many supercede any one person's rights to say... purchase alcohol. if we, as a community, want to limit your access to any substance, then we will do so, regardless of what you think... currently, in my home state of CT that's the law. If you don't like it. Tough shit.

3. do you have any idea whatsoever what free will actually means... because it doesn't mean buying alcohol on sunday or the laws connected therewith.

[havocmom]

35. Stop trying to legislate other's drinking habits! LOL

The thread is ABOUT Christians who insist they are persecuted while actually throwing their weight around in a society which is supposed to be religion neutral.

Do you have any idea what the OP was talking about?

[cgrindley]

37. Why are you responding to this sub-thread?

Go blather on about jesus in the main thread.

I'd like to legislate a lot more than people's drinking habits. I'm a social democrat. That's what we're like.

[havocmom]

40. Cuz it's not a sub thread? The OP regarded the claims of persecution while making laws for all

If you don't like what I am saying, you can either debate with rational argument or ignore me. THAT is part of that free will thing AND democracy.

You're a self proclaimed social democrat. You want me to stop posting on the actual topic the OP raised?

:rofl:

You made my day doing your impression of Bill-O :rofl: Really, very funny. Bill-O will probably try to sue you like he did Al Frankin. The routine is a hoot! :rofl:

[cgrindley]

45. It *is* a sub-thread

Is there any way to turn off those retarded smiley things?

PS in the future, you press reply to the OP if you want to comment on the OP and not a god damn sub-thread

[havocmom]

52. OP about a group which makes laws also claiming to be persecuted

and you can make those smiley things disappear easily - just put me on your ignore list. Or would you rather a law be passed?

:rofl: really, the Bill-O routine is funny. We should get you on Olbermann. :rofl:

[Name removed]

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[havocmom]

82. Why not just send the police?

:D

[Kali]

175. ...

:spray:

that one got the keyboard

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[havocmom]

73. About my alleged ignorance:

Daughter of an alcoholic who was EXTREMELY abusive in many ways. I know what problem drinking can do. I don't like drunk behavior and have worked to help some who struggle with the problem. Have also worked long and hard to get society to take drunk driving seriously.

Also from the Bible Belt, a dry county too, where that alcoholic father did all his problem drinking and abuse. Have seen that legislating does NOT make the problem go away.

Lived in many places where Christians called most of the shots legally, while subjecting other ethnic and religious groups to discrimination. Same people who with all that power also scream THEY are being persecuted when someone challenged their subjection of others.

You don't like my disagreeing nor do you offer any sort of rational reasons for me to change my mind, so you just want me to shut up, but you won't use the ignore button when I so offend you?

And I'm ignorant?

Please, :rofl: yer killin me! :rolf: My sides are splitting! :rofl:

Edited cuz I can't type fer shit while laughing.

[havocmom]

66. Thanks, kestrel. Maybe there are illustrated instrucions for its operation

we could get a link for those who don't want to read me? ;)

[alittlelark]

60. Uhhhhh,

from your post -
"I'd like to legislate a lot more than people's drinking habits. I'm a social democrat. That's what we're like."


Really? Tell me more, I'm fascinated.

[cgrindley]

67. Why don't you look it up?

I'm Canadian. I like our social democracy and I'd like to see some of its features in the US. And yes, sometimes that does involve legislating things like alcohol consumption.

Another example. In Canada, beastiality and golden shower porn is illegal. I'm all in favor of that being the case in the US too.

I'd also like to see the entire health care system nationalized and private health care made illegal.

[Beetwasher]

85. Now You're Canadian?? That's Funny, Your Profile Says You're In CT

Now, why would that be? :eyes:

[cgrindley]

87. Ummm

I am Canadian and I live in CT. Is this not allowed? I thought my green card specifically enabled me to do just that.

[beachmom]

137. Correct me if I'm wrong. Don't the package stores close at 8 PM

and can you buy alcohol on Sundays (I can't remember now). I also know of dry counties in Conn (surprising that a blue state has blue laws but it does). The 8 PM closing had nothing to do with combatting alcoholism, but the power of business owners in the city getting hit with crime at night. They must have had power and clout because they got the whole state to make package stores close at 8 PM.

It's laughable that you're whining about restricting days/times for alcohol sales, when you live in a state that does exactly that.

[cgrindley]

161. You can't buy at a package store on Sunday

and yes, they do close at 8 pm on other nights.

I'm not whining about it, I'm defending it.

[Dorian Gray]

92. This is one of the most surreal posts I've read in awhile

I understand that sometimes drinking is a problem. I actually have not been "frustrated" with the blue laws in quite a long time, but I also acknowledge that their existance is questionable. But, your idea of social democracy is disturbing, as is your wording about being Canadian but wanting to foist certain aspects of "Canadian Social Democracy" upon your neighbor.

In other words, I don't necessarily disagree with what you are saying underneath it all, but your message's delivery is leaving me perplexed. Alcohol free days are good and all, but at the end of the day, foisting rules and regulations upon the populace, and having those rules and regulations being actively supported by a person who will not be affected by them, really is a problematic approach to this issue for me.

[cgrindley]

95. But

I've lived in CT since 2001. I just happen to think that my homeland does some things better than the US and would like to see some of those ideas put into place here.

[Dorian Gray]

127. Well, there you go then.

I didn't realize that you lived in CT from reading your posts. Now I know. :)

[cgrindley]

129. Sorry, I thought everyone knew

With the exception of Lieberman, CT's an okay place to live. Little expensive, but okay. I work in New York City. So I'm not complaining. That's an expensive place.

[Dorian Gray]

132. It's okay!

NYC is expensive. Crazy expensive. :)

Good luck with the argument. I'm out of it now!

[havocmom]

97. And I get blasted for 'sub-thread'

I would like to see the people putting pressure on lawmakers for the past DECADES to stop claiming they are being persecuted.

Kinda thought that was what the OP was about.

Whoa-doggy, got a quite a list there of what we should be legislating against. My, my, the OP HAS a point.

[Carni]

109. Oh geez --now drinkers are in league with beastiality types

Yeah...RIGHT, OK.

Golden showers? Christ, you DO sound like O'Reilly!

Where do you guys get your talking points anyway?

[Name removed]

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[havocmom]

77. See, I am trying to learn diplomacy in my old age,

but brass tacks do the job so much better ;)

Thank you.

hm

[Dorian Gray]

94. In other words

this post pretty much sums up a lot of what I think on this topic. :)

Thanks Beetwasher.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[Lance_Boyle]

38. You can have as many alcohol free days as you like.

Just don't try to force your alcohol free days on me.

[cgrindley]

42. Thank you

The greater society has the right through democratic means to limit individual access to activities that are reasonably deemed harmful or which have detrimental effects on society. EG anti-smoking laws. Anti-smoking laws are not Christian in origin. They are there to protect the greater society and to make everyone's collective quality of life improve. I enjoy smoking cigars and cigarettes, although I have to admit that I have a problem with cigarettes (I have not smoked now for 4 months). I can see the logic behind not letting people smoke in public places. I can see the logic behind attempting to control the positive depiction of smoking in movies (hell, I want a cigarette when I see those disgusting diseased lung tv commercials).

Liquor laws are the same general thing.

I support having one alcohol free day per week. If you have a problem with that. Well, I just don't care. The greater society has the right to legislate the use of this substance.

[havocmom]

46. Please read reply #8 by OP: OK - the point of the OP was not to address liquor laws

speaking of sub-threads ;)

[cgrindley]

55. This sub thread addresses a specific point in the OP

regarding the sale of liquor on Sundays--which the OP blamed on Christianity. I responded that it wasn't a case of Christianity, that a ban on Sunday sales is an agreeable thing even to an Atheist such as myself. Many other posters responded in a similar manner to the OP.

If you do not wish to respond to this sub-thread, then perhaps you should either a) respond to the OP or b)

[havocmom]

The Bill-O routine is making my sides hurt

:rofl: Really!

[cgrindley]

71. You're now ignored

Bye.

[havocmom]

83. yeah, but the mic is still on

Have a good week. Really.

[Name removed]

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[cgrindley]

84. Who gives a shit what it was based on?

It's a good idea to have one day a week when it's more difficult to buy alcohol. I don't care where the idea came from originally.

If you want to argue that the origins of the idea somehow make the idea itself untenable, you're in for an awful lot of trouble regarding certain issues.

[Beetwasher]

89. Umm, That's The Point Of The OP, Einstein

Laws based on religion being shoved down non-religious people's throats. I give a shit what the law is based on. That's the whole point of this thread, jeenyus.

"It's a good idea to have one day a week when it's more difficult to buy alcohol."

Prove it. Show me the data. Otherwise it's just your ignorant opinion.

[cgrindley]

102. I disagree

plenty of people likewise read the OP as a complaint about sunday liquor laws.

It is a good idea to have one day a week when it's more difficult to buy alcohol.

Currently, existing CT state laws are on my side. It's actually up to you to cite refereed journals proving that it isn't. Perhaps you could look up crime rate comparisons with the relaxation of the UK's alcohol laws? Refereed journals only PLS.

[Name removed]

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[cgrindley]

107. You need to take a pill

Perhaps you need some help.

[Name removed]

108. Deleted message

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[Megahurtz]

166. Why are you so PARANOID about Alcohol that

you feel you must force everyone else to abide by your rules?
You make wine for Christsakes!
Give it a rest.

[kestrel91316]

63. Your snarky, rude, obviously fake attempt at playing a "social democrat"

isn't working very well.

You don't fool me.

[Name removed]

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[Richard Steele]

76. Not exactly an Oscar-worthy performance, is it? nm

[cgrindley]

81. WTF

Because I favor maintaining a ban on alcohol sales in grocery and liquor stores on Sundays (although I'd be willing to trade Sunday for absolutely any other day of the week) I'm somehow Karl motherfucking Rove?

Are you insane?

Tell me exactly what the fuck is wrong with having one day a week when you can't buy beer in a grocery store?

[Richard Steele]

106. Almost everyone on this thread has already explained it to you. More than once.

Are you truly UNABLE to understand, or just unwilling?

[cgrindley]

111. No one has

Tell me. How is supporting a one day ban on the sale of alcohol in grocery stores and liquor stores an inherently fascist fucking stand?

Come on. Tell me.

[Beetwasher]

117. Actually It's More Christo-Fascist

Because it's a law being based on CHRISTIAN RELIGION and used to try to MODIFY PEOPLE'S BEHAVIOR to conform to that religion regardless of what the individual believes. I should NOT be forced to follow a law based on someone elses religion, that serves no other purpose EXCEPT to modify people's behavior to conform to that religious belief. Just because you claim to be an atheist and think the law is a good idea does not take away from the fact that it's based on religion.

What if they passed a law that all adulterers should be stoned as it says in the bible. If I'm an atheist, and I agree w/ the law, does that make it a good idea or NOT based on religion? That's what you're arguing, Einstein. Or how about making it illegal for people to eat pork in this country? Would that be ok w/ you?

Our constitution (well, you're supposedly Canadian, so maybe you don't care about OUR constitution)expressely forbids laws based on religion. It's unfortunate that they still get snuck in and the alcohol ban on Sundays is one of them. And it's wrong and it's a legislating of people's behavior that crosses a line, as opposed to legislating people's behavior by ,for example, making murder illegal, which doesn't cross that line.

[Richard Steele]

119. I used that very word in my response to you above. Because "Christofascist" is EXACTLY what it is.

"Textbook case" is another phrase that springs to mind.

[Beetwasher]

121. LOL!

Is that a dildo smiley? :rofl:

[Richard Steele]

125. Yes. (Except in Georgia, where it's a "personal muscle massager" smiley! )

Some "custom smiley" artist has 12 of them posted
as examples of his work; I try to make up for "borrowing"
them so often by directing folks to his site:
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=&imgrefurl=http://www.intersmart.com/v2-smilies.html&h=55&w=67&sz=9&hl=en&start=9&tbnid=nL-cIa-XsBEcGM:&tbnh=54&tbnw=66&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dsmiley%2B%252B%2Bpissing%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den

[cgrindley]

123. You can't seriously be arguing that point

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=366&invol=420

The supreme court has already decided the matter. Sunday alcohol sales laws serve a legitimate secular purpose and do not infringe on either separation of church and state or any other freedom. The origins of the law do not matter. Whether or not it serves a legitimate non-religious purpose is the consideration. You could argue that if you wanted, but I'm pretty sure that experience from the UK moving to 24-hour liquor sales would probably shoot down any statistics you could provide.

[Richard Steele]

128. No, because there is no "argument". It's a fact. An unamerican, Christofascist FACT.

And you have implicitly ADMITTED that it's a FACT by
including the sentence, "The origins of the law do not matter."

Why say that unless you are AWARE that the "origins of the law"
are, in FACT, based upon a religious text and not our Constitution?

[cgrindley]

130. But the religious origins of individual laws don't matter

as far as the Supreme Court is concerned. That's hardly christofascist. Unless you're calling Earl Warren a christofascist. You're not calling Earl Warren a bad name are you?

The origins of a law do not matter. The test is whether or not they serve a good secular purpose.

[Beetwasher]

135. That's Not What The Case Says, Einstein

In that PARTICULAR case the origins didn't matter because it evolved into a Sunday closing law that included EVERYTHING. And Sunday became a day of rest and leisure and evolved away from it's religious beginnings. You do realize that that case WAS NOT ABOUT ALCOHOL SALES, don't you? I mean, you DID read it, didn't you? :eyes:

"Appellants, employees of a large department store on a highway in Anne Arundel County, Md., were convicted and fined in a Maryland State Court for selling on Sunday a loose-leaf binder, a can of floor wax, a stapler, staples and a toy..."

[cgrindley]

144. The court ruled

that the religious origins of a law were not a consideration if that law served a legitimate secular purpose. That was the essence of their ruling on that issue.

Perhaps you should learn to read critically.

[Name removed]

147. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

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[Richard Steele]

149. More strawmen and non sequiteurs, but still no actual debate. What a shock. nm

[cgrindley]

157. I cited the Supreme Court directly supporting my argument

I won. I was victorious. Hail to me. Let's have a parade.

[Beetwasher]

165. I'm an atheist and yet I support an alcohol free Sunday

"I'm an atheist and yet I support an alcohol free Sunday
We need at least one day a week when it's slightly more difficult for some people to get loaded and beat the shit out of their spouses, lovers and children. Alcohol is a factor in almost all cases of domestic abuse. No one needs to drink every day of the week. For that matter, I'd be in favor of dry Sundays at restaurants too."

That's your idiotic argument, Einstein. Show the relevant portions of the USSC decision that support this nonsense.

Face it, you can't, you lose.

Notice the USSC decision you cited is about Sunday closings in general, NOT about dry Sundays.

[cgrindley]

170. One necessarily presupposes the other

Sunday sales prohibitions are necessarily a subset of Sunday closings. The USSC ruling directly addresses the concept of blue laws in considering the general sales prohibition, so using that decision to address this situation is hardly inappropriate.

[Beetwasher]

172. It's Totally Innapropriate

Since actually, if you read the USSC case, alcohol sales are actually allowed on Sundays in MD (such as at sporting events). :rofl:

You were SPECIFICALLY discussing the ban of alcohol sales on Sunday NOT Sunday closings in general. The ban of alcohol sales SPECIFICALLY, on Sunday is religious. The ban of ALL SALES on Sunday is not necessarily religious. There's a big, big difference. You cited a case innapropriately that does NOT support your argument. You lose. Big time.

[Beetwasher]

131. Uh, Yes, I Can

Did you bother to read it? It doesn't support your claim that banning ALCOHOL sales is a good thing.

They ban ALL sales on Sunday (with exceptions). There's a difference.

"There is no dispute that the original laws which dealt with Sunday labor were motivated by religious forces. But what we must decide is whether present Sunday legislation, having undergone extensive changes from the earliest forms, still retains its religious character."

Read the case, it does NOT support you. It acknowledges EVERYTHING I've said. The differnce is that the Sun. closing laws are NOT exclusive to religion anymore because they include pretty much EVERYTHING (w/ limitations and exclusions), so it's no longer religiously based.

[cgrindley]

139. I disagree

Of course I read the entire ruling. The ruling makes it very clear that the religious origins of the Sunday shopping laws in MD had little bearing on the constitutionality of the law in the twentieth century.

I think that the CT law now limits access to an already controled substance, and therefore DOES serve a purely secular functionality. For that matter, I don't think that the existing laws serve a contemporary religious function in the context of the majority of CT's churches--few of which advocate temperance even on Sundays. Besides... the state law only applies to liquor sales off premises.

You're not going to win this argument.

[Beetwasher]

145. If You Read It, You Obviously Didn't Comprehend It

"The ruling makes it very clear that the religious origins of the Sunday shopping laws in MD had little bearing on the constitutionality of the law in the twentieth century."

And that means that not selling liquor on Sunday's is a good thing? Does that mean that laws based on religion are constitutionally acceptable if YOU (as a supposed atheist) think they're ok? Where does it say that, because THAT is what you've been arguing. Just because in this case the USSC says the law evolved PAST it's religious origins doesn't meant that ALL laws with religious origins have done so or that the origin of ALL laws based religion have little bearing on their constitutionality.

"You're not going to win this argument."

Umm, I won a long time ago when you told me to fuck off and even more so when you started citing USSC cases that don't support your argument.

[cgrindley]

154. I told you

to fuck off because you were being an asshole and you weren't debating with good manners. You're being better now, but you still lost the argument.

The Supreme Court's ruling totally works in this situation.

[Name removed]

164. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Carni]

115. I agree it's pretty obvious eom

[Carni]

113. I want a *no bossy pissy people day*

One day a week I want it legislated, that anyone that annoys me should STFU and stay in their house or be subject to arrest...that's what I want.

I have no problem with people buying alcohol 7 days a week however.

[JackintheGreen]

39. What about other vices?

Smoking, sex, gambling, not playing with your kids on Saturday because god forbid you might miss one of the 400 NCAA games on cable, meat, smug vegetarianism/veganism, need I go on?

It doesn't become an alcohol free day just because beer cannot be bought. It can still be had, from the fridge, garage, friends, across the state border, whatever.

[cgrindley]

48. So why are your knickers in a twist?

If it's not that much of an inconvenience?

Personally, I would like to see gambling outlawed entirely. I'd like to see going to church outlawed too.

Sex is good. Playing with your kids is good. Watching tv is good.

Smoking? Smoking is good. But it should still be outlawed. I'm sorry Joe Camel... sniff... Jesus, I miss cigarettes. But... yeah... they should be illegal.

[JackintheGreen]

114. My knickers weren't in a twist because of the "inconvenience."

I plan ahead and generally have booze available if I want it. I simply think it's silly to suggest that "just one liquor free day" is a good thing. It's not. Nor is it necessarily a bad thing. But it is a silly thing. As would banning the sale of meat on Friday's so that Catholics aren't tempted to lapse (I know, Vatican II already dealt with that...).

Unless we want an inquisition-style morality force roaming the streets on Sundays, peeking into windows, and prying open cellar doors, "one liquor-free day" is a silly concept.

[cgrindley]

116. How so? It's already the law here in CT

You cannot buy liquor in a store on Sunday in CT. You can order it in a restaurant or a bar, but you can't buy it in a grocery or liquor store. It's already the law. No one peeps into anyone's windows. It's a good law.

[BlackVelvet04]

152. So it's NOT an alcohol free day, then is it?

"You cannot buy liquor in a store on Sunday in CT. You can order it in a restaurant or a bar, but you can't buy it in a grocery or liquor store."

Does the alcohol in the restaurants and bars have a magic spell to keep you from getting drunk?

WTF difference does it make if you buy it in a store or a restaurant or a bar?

How can you argue that it's a good law when all it does is discriminate against stores who sell alcohol?

[cgrindley]

155. I think that limiting the sale of alcohol

is a good thing. It's already a regulated substance. It causes tremendous societal harm. I would be in favor of banning it completely but as prohibition taught us, that wouldn't work. I'd be in favor of banning its sale in toto on Sudays, but I don't think that would work either. So the restriction on off premises sales is as good as we're going to get.

[Kali]

150. I'm just going to jump in here and state the obvious.

You can have all the alcohol free days you want and so can anybody else. Why do you (or they) get to dictate that I or anybody else have to have a state-mandated alcohol free day? And as others have pointed out it is rarely even that, as most know to get around it by purchasing ahead.

It isn't even a good pretend bandaid. It serves no useful function whatsoever.

[JackintheGreen]

163. Amen to that.

[LiberalFighter]

11. I rather see Monday thru Thursday be dry days

and let those that enjoy alcohol do so during the weekend especially if they stay home.

Those that abuse alcohol will abuse alcohol no matter what day or days the sale of alcohol is prohibited. If I drank alcohol I would be buying my beer by the cases and doing so when it was on sale. Probably making sure on Friday that I had enough on stock for the weekend.

[Richard Steele]

13. You think such laws have ever slowed down a wifebeating alcoholic?

You think people who "drink every day" don't
buy their Sunday booze on Saturday?

And then you are also in favor of legally prohibiting
people from having a glass of wine with their steak,
just that one day a week...

Your "anti domestic violence" argument doesn't hold water
for a second...and your final comment makes me suspect that
domestic violence is NOT really your motivation for favoring
these puritanical laws.

[cgrindley]

17. No one "needs" to drink every day of the week

Yeah, I confess. I'm a nanny-state supporting social democrat who believes that a good dose of government regulation and intrusion can make for a better society. What of it?

[Richard Steele]

27. If you aren't going to answer my questions, why reply at all?

[cgrindley]

32. Because your question was pointless

obviously, yes, I do think that limiting the sale of alcohol would have a positive effect on society, otherwise, I wouldn't be in favor of maintaining or expanding it in my home state.

Please don't only single out men. Study after study has shown that it is an equal opportunity crime. In terms of mental condition at time of arrest, you should note that 67% of women and 78% of men were intoxicated.

See:

Busch, Amy L. and Mindy S. Rosenberg. “Comparing Women and Men Arrested for Domestic Violence: A Preliminary Report.” Journal of Family Violence 19.1 (February 2004): 49-57.

[Richard Steele]

50. If your premise was correct, 1920-33 would have been a Golden Age of "positive effect on society" .

History has already shown that your notions are wildly incorrect.

[cgrindley]

62. I don't want prohibition, just one booze free day

a week and not even that... just no booze in supermarkets or open liquor stores just one day a week. Just one miserable day. Why is that such a challenge? It's law in a lot of jurisdictions.

[Richard Steele]

74. You are personally free to avoid alcohol any day you want. No one will stop you.

But that's not enough for you- you want to force EVERYONE
to live their lives according to YOUR whims.

Whims which have long been tested and PROVEN to be completely
ineffective at creating the "positive effects" you claim they cause.

The simple fact is that these laws do nothing more than give
a certain self-righteous segment of society a smug sense of
satisfaction, while NEGATIVELY impacting society's overall
respect for "Law" in general.

[cgrindley]

86. How is it my whim?

The entire state of CT has this law. So do other states. Am I the sovereign lord of all Connecticut? Am I the emperor of New Haven County? It's a good law.

[dysfunctional press]

51. it's a free country- if people want to drink or if you want to be an asshole.

it's their right- and yours.

[Name removed]

65. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

70. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[durrrty libby]

22. I work nights .On my way home in the morning, I stop at the

grocery store to buy some snacks for the game later in the day.

It is absolute bullshit that I can't get a six pack of Guinness to

go along with my menu. I just waste fuel going out after 1pm to another store.


Your reasoning is beyond lame. The al-keys and beaters have little control to
begin with. Putting off their inevitable arrest for "Sunday" observance
is ludicrous.

BTW An occasional Sunday game is the only time I want a couple of drinks,

and this dry Sunday morning is unnecessary and stooopid.





:hurts: :spank: :hurts: :spank:

[kestrel91316]

49. Project much, do you?

[ProfessorGAC]

90. Just Silly

Prohibition doesn't work whether it's for one day or all 7. One day of no sales is apropos of nothing.
The Professor

[beachmom]

134. Screw that noise!! I only have a drink on weekends, AND I usually

only shop on weekends sometimes not going until Sunday. And dry restaurants on Sunday? Pffff...

[Madspirit]

158. Prohibition doesn't work

Deal with the domestic abuse issue as a separate issue please. It's not up to one person to tell another person they need to be moderate on Sundays. You can always just buy your booze the day before. In Texas you can buy beer after noon on Sundays.
Lee

[cgrindley]

162. So why not before noon?

Really? Why shouldn't we regulate the shit out of alcohol sales? Does alcohol's many benefits outweigh the enormous costs that it creates for society in terms of crimes and ruined lives? Personally, I think that a healthy dose of restriction on this issue is a good idea. I'd even advocate following a state only sales model for off premises sales.

[Megahurtz]

169. Yeah Right.

"But, but, it wasn't really me, Honey, it was the Alcohol!" :eyes:

Yeah, "The Devil made me do it too." :sarcasm:

Excuses, excuses. :eyes:

[RebelOne]

3. I live in Georgia where alcohol cannot be purchased on Sunday.

I'm also an atheist. I don't bitch about not being able to buy alcohol on Sunday, I just make sure I hit the liquor store on Saturday.

[Coexist]

5. my point wasn't my poor planning - it was how Christians make the rules

Oh, never mind.......

[OnionPatch]

23. Exactly.

We all must plan ahead and follow these rules because the Christians RUN EVERYTHING. And yet, they are sooo persecuted.

Also, I don't think I should have to be inconvenienced because some asshole beats his wife and someone else wants to give her a day off on Sunday. Let's just ban marriage, that way no one will ever beat their wife again.:eyes:

[Dorian Gray]

100. Well

I'm a Christian (Roman Catholic), and I get pissed off when I can't buy alcohol on Sundays. Luckily, where I live now, it's not a problem. We just have to wait until after noon on Sundays at the delis and for bars to open. :)

[RebelOne]

29. I don't understand. You are in Florida and you can't buy

alcohol on Sunday? I lived in South Florida until 1989 and never had a problem buying alcohol in a supermarket or liquor store on Sunday.

[Richard Steele]

54. Many of these laws are on a county-by-county basis, not statewide.

Perhaps that's the cse in Florida?

[tkmorris]

173. That is the case in FL

In fact, some of the laws are different if inside a particular city's limits. I live right on the Delray Beach city limits, and the closing time for alcohol sales is different depending upon which side of the road the store you visit sits.

[durrrty libby]

34. You completely miss the point

[Mr. Ected]

98. Just Because You've Developed a Work-Around

Doesn't mean the underlying law and its supposed 'justification' in Georgia is merited.

Did you know that Georgia is one of only 3 states in the country where Sunday alcohol sales are prohibited?

[geiger]

6. I just found out yesterday that alcohol in Ohio costs 4 times as much as other states

[Dr.Phool]

15. It's not quite that high.

But, it's the highest I've ever seen.

The state law has minimum mandatory pricing. It's almost double what I pay in Florida.

[zbdent]

7. What gets me is the number of Catholics who go to sports events on Sundays

didn't the Pope call for them to abstain from sporting events on Sundays?

I wonder why they don't listen to him on THAT ...

[Dorian Gray]

101. He did:

When? I don't remember that.

[Coexist]

8. OK - the point of the OP was not to address liquor laws

Just so you know.

[Norquist Nemesis]

28. I understood it and thought you expressed it well

You clearly started with several behaviors you accept and don't take steps to interfere or try to prevent. Then, you picked one example of something that you were prevented from doing because of rules that are rooted in faith-based doctrine. At least that's what I took from it.

[havocmom]

47. Me too. But I got clobbered for 'sub thread'

:rofl:

[grace0418]

56. Seriously, why are 90% of the responses about one tiny part of the OP that has

little to do with the point of the post at all? Good grief.

Great OP, by the way. I agree completely.

[Dr.Phool]

9. You could have brought the steaks over to my house.

I have plenty of beer. And just about anything else to drink, you can think of.:toast:

[raccoon]

12. Last night I saw a dumbass commercial on TV about how

Christians are attacked. They showed film clips of MLK and St. Ronnie and the word "God" was bleeped out.

:puke: :puke:

I don't get it either, how they think THEY'RE the ones being attacked.


P.S. FLDem5, want to start this thread over and maybe don't mention anything about alcohol sales on Sunday? :shrug:

[havocmom]

138. I live in a town with Catholic , Mormon, Baptist, Lutheran, Assembly of God churches

and no other houses of worship. But many here INSIST they are being persecuted. It boggles the mind.

[jojo54]

14. It's about self-discipline, whether it's booze, drugs or mind-fucks.

Whether you are religious or not, the Sunday factor has many pro's and con's. I'm a non-religious, logical person and like to hear both sides before making a decision on anything. I support liquor stores being open and liquor being served on Sundays.

As far as liquor being a factor in most abuse cases, here's food for thought: just this morning I heard 2 stories on the news. One was 2 teens being arrested for submitting a video on youtube, showing them giving pot to 2 children, ages 2 and 5. The second item was a woman being arrested for beating her boyfriend, using her 4 WEEK OLD BABY as the weapon!!

[Mnemosyne]

36. Is this the woman in Erie, PA (10/06) or another incident of using an infant

as a weapon?

If it's the woman in Erie, her boyfriend actually was defending her on the news one night. :crazy:

Erie is also home to the bomb collar pizza guy. :crazy:


Mad world.

As far as buying booze on Sunday, I only drink a couple times a year, but if I wanted it on a Sunday, as an adult I should be able to buy it. Oh wait, PA just changed the law and you can buy booze on Sunday in some places now. :toast:

I agree with the OP. I believe that non-xtians are discriminated against much more. Look at the widow of the Iraqi soldier that had to fight to get the Wiccan symbol on his tombstone.

[jojo54]

43. I didn't hear where this happened.

But I live in Jersey, so it was probably somewhere in the Philly, south Jersey, Deleware region. Apparently this just happened.

I hadn't heard the one about the Iraqi soldier's widow trying to get the Wiccan symbol on the tombstone. Show's you just how small-minded the elite and powerful can be.

[Mandate My Ass]

16. claims of Xtian "persecution" make my ears bleed

In my area there are now police officers assigned at the local RC Church on Sundays who stop all traffic on a very busy road until the church parking lot clears after each mass. It chaps my ass to sit there - stuck - while people leisurely jawbone in the parking lot not caring one whit that I'm sitting there waiting, waiting, waiting for their convenience.

I wrote a LTTE about it, which was published, and got a about a dozen venemous and threatening hatemail letters from the Xtians who are so very "persecuted" that they have their own police contingent paid for by my tax dollars.

[gollygee]

18. I was just talking about this with my brother (born-again Christian) on Saturday

His feeling is that Christianity is a religion, but that our culture is influenced by Christianity, and therefore part of living in our culture will be to abide by cultural norms, which are influenced by Christianity. He does not see that as a problem.

I have two issues with that.

1. Some of these so-called "Christian cultural values" are discriminatory. People's civil rights outweigh cultural values. I don't know if we have a civil right to buy liquor on Sundays so I guess I'm not as bothered by that as I am by people using their cultural values as an excuse to tell people they can't marry the people they love.

2. His right to practice his religion ends where my right to not practice his religion begins. And that goes for all Christians. They can practice their religion as much as they want, but it is my right to not practice their religion. If I am not a Christian, I should not have them attempt to force me to abstain from buying alcohol when their religious cultural values tell them they should abstain from buying alcohol.

[OwnedByFerrets]

19. Scarbourgh was on Bill Maher spewing

that crap bout christians being persecuted. Its pathetic and nothing more than another talking point.

[Norquist Nemesis]

21. Saw that...it was sickening

He was overly sensitive, IMO. He seemed to be saying that he should be entitled to say whatever he "believes" and NO ONE can speak about his "beliefs" or they are attacking him.

[atommom]

122. All those bad atheists are doing things JUST TO ANNOY CHRISTIANS!

That's the only possible reason for their behavior, right? 'Cause the world revolves around Joe Scaborough. :eyes:

[barbtries]

26. sounds as if your beliefs

are a close match to mine. i don't experience discomfort...when asked, i always say, "ethnically i'm a WASP, technically i'm jewish, and for all practical purposes i am in infidel," and people take it well. of course i live in california where if it's between 6am and 2am you can buy beer any day of the week.

[Sammy Pepys]

33. Sunday might be THE busiest day of the week...

..at my grocery store. Fridays and Saturday afternoons are by far less crowded than Sunday (any time of the day).

As for being an atheist in a religious environment (let's face it; more folks are religious than not just about anywhere you go), it sounds to me like you have the right idea in only talking about it when asked. Clearly you're not comfortable proclaiming it for the masses to hear.

As for reactions, there's just nothing you can do about that. Besides, it sounds like a little bit of you reacts to them the same way.

[lectrobyte]

41. Same deal in NC. I don't see any of this Christian discrimination either.

I guess everybody loves to feel like the underdog or something.

[BlooInBloo]

44. They aren't. They just seek victimhood status because they see....

... how well "it worked" for Jewish, black, and Native American folks.

The irony is, of course, that christianity is precisely what was behind what happened to those very people!

[OneBlueSky]

61. I'm old enough to remember when "under God" was added to the Pledge of Allegiance . . .

it was sometime in the mid-50s, as I recall, and I was in elementary school . . . I also recall that it took the class -- and even the teacher -- a little while to remember to include it when we said the pledge every morning . . .

seems to me that people thought this was a good thing, and I don't remember reading about any protests or complaints from any quarter . . . (of course, these were the days when protesting pretty much anything was generally considered unacceptable behavior). . .

[trof]

75. It was to combat the godless communist 'menace'.

During the great red baiting scare of McCarthyism under Eisenhower.
Comunnism was atheistic, therefore 'we' would be godly 'under god'.
We were christ and they were the anti-christ.
We were 'good' and they were 'bad'.
silly

[trof]

68. I get your point absolutely because you make it well.

It's NOT about prior planning.
It's 'us' being made to live by 'their' rules.
And yet, they are the 'persecuted' ones.
Thanks for your post.
We have the same rules here in Alabama.
We still even have some counties that are totally 'dry'.
Recommended.

[AndyA]

78. Gosh, you sound more Christian than most Christians I know!

You are thoughtful of others, and recognize they have the right to believe as they wish.

You aren't confrontational.

You don't condemn others for their beliefs.

You are tolerant of others.

Hmmm...are you sure you aren't a Christian?

I think Christians could learn a lot from you, if they had an open, non-judgemental mind. But we know they don't have open minds, they are closed, condemning, judgemental, and lack tolerance and respect for others. Not really in keeping with what they're told they should do.

By your actions, you sound like a much better person than 99% of the self-professed "Christians" I know.

(I mean this to be a compliment to you, not a challenge.)

[Dorian Gray]

79. Hell.... I am Christian and I'm annoyed when liquor stores

are closed on Sundays.

[ArmchairMeme]

88. Spirituality

It seems to me the most spiritually beautiful people I meet are NOT involved in religion. They don't see the need to change other people but to accept them the way they are.

[spoony]

91. Persecuted Christians

http://www.persecutedchurch.org/
http://www.persecution.com/
http://www.persecution.org/suffering/index.php

[spoony]

104. Btw, who is Leviticus

I realise you take him to be a "crackpot," but who is he?

[jpgray]

120. I assume he/she means the book in the bible

Calls homosexuality (depending on interpretation) an abomination, along with eating shellfish, wearing clothes made of two materials, and other weirdness.

[Bill McBlueState]

142. oh noes!

Someone doesn't know the origin of the name of a book in the scriptures of a religion she doesn't follow. Oh, the humanity!

I wonder how many Christians can explain how every book in their bible got its name.

[Mr. Ected]

96. And Why Can't I Buy Alcohol-Free Beer on Sunday?

Like even the TASTE of beer is illegal.

Amazing.

[leftofthedial]

103. Christian "victimization" is a lie

just like the "liberal" media is a lie

Lies come easily to the delusional

[noamnety]

126. I am with you on this

I get pretty darn annoyed at having to make TWO trips to the store if I need to do a shopping run on a Sunday morning, and I'm out of Bailey's for my coffee. It's a waste of my time, and a waste of gasoline.

The whole BS about "it's good to have 12 hours a week where people don't get drunk and beat their spouses" is exactly that - BS.

Either support prohibition or don't. There is no logic behind the argument that 156 hours a week it's okay to get drunk and beat your spouse, but a random 12 hour span needs to be off limits - not for drinking, mind you, but just for buying alcohol.

That makes as much sense as saying second hand smoke is bad ... therefore we won't let you buy cigarettes on Wednesdays from 4am to 4pm. Oh, and car accidents are a problem, so we aren't allowed to drive on Thursdays anymore. McDonalds is outlawed - but only on Monday mornings.

[beachmom]

133. Why don't you just say you went to Mass Sat. evening?

Not sure how Catholic it is in your area but most have Sat. evening services. I realize that's not the point, but if it means getting your beer with no trouble, consider that option.

[Bill McBlueState]

143. well, it doesn't really work like that

It's not like the cashier asks you about your religious practices and only sells you alcohol if you give the right answer. They just won't sell the stuff to anyone on Sundays.

[ComerPerro]

141. Christians in this country are discriminated against when

they are not allowed to force their will and views on others

[durrrty libby]

146. That is hitting the nail on the head

[OwnedByFerrets]

174. DING! DING! DING! We have a winna!!!!

Perfect!!

[AngryOldDem]

148. A suggestion

If you don't like it, start a petition to get a referendum to repeal it. Liquor laws and zoning for liquor sales are commonplace and I'm sure you'd have no problem getting enough signatures to get an issue on the ballot.

As for this being yet another example of how Christians rule the world, I see it as another example of anachronistic laws that people are too lazy to revisit and repeal.

[undergroundpanther]

151. I understand your plight

I am not atheist. But I might as well be . I am a mal-theist. And I am a dualist in the gnostic sense too.

I do think there are two kinds of essence here and because they are mixed together and in conflict here, everything is fucked up. I think these 2 essences are going to be separated one day. How? When? I don't know.

I will not pretend evil is good or good is evil, but I am aware in reality things come in many shades of grey too.This pisses alot of people off that I don't play make believe with them..


My beliefs are hated by just about everyone that believes in something, excepting some flavors of gnostics..New Agers hate it because I don't believe the universe is good or caring about my life and I say I didn't "choose" my life here in my understanding I was captured and forced here..This really irks new agers . Pagans don't like the way I see nature as a bloody clawed monster a random sadist forcing life to feed off life to live and die anyway. If that is the Goddess I fucking hate her too.


Christians and other monotheists are intolerant of my views because I think their god the half maker "creator" of this mess is an evil toxic control freak liar. A monster who blinds us.A two faced manipulative sadistic idiot. This is what it means to be a mal-theist. I hate the gods that rule,dominate ,create flawed realities such as this one or have anything to do with this "creation" and how it works in such a sick way..I hate god because this creation sucks.

I agree with you ,christians are not discriminated against at all here. I think alot of christians in positions of power-over have bullied people with hellfire and bribe them with paradise and rewards that never seem to ever arrive.


Christians have pushed their belief as almost a brand name, As christian Parents routinely force their kids to church,and Christians bully as adults to manipulate people to believe as they do. Evangelism is bullying.

Too many churches are corrupt,scams,abusive and manipulative to vulnerable people and poor people who need help.I find the bible is incomplete can be read two ways, not just the way it is read by believers and because it is edited by the state of rome,and had any authority discounting spirit edited out of it, it is evil.


I have been seriously harmed psychologically by christians and churches and other true believers in my life.Even though I try to tell myself when encountering a christian,or true believer in some religion system, every christian or believer isn't an asshole until they act like one...I still feel wary of them all and triggered by it. I hate the assemblies of god church and fundamentalism in any belief system and I hate conservatism.They are all domination based systems , authoritarian and demand obedience and submission, and I HATE that kind of shit whatever mask it wears or sacred scriptures it uses to justify itself.. It's evil.

I also realize most believers worship a god I despise and they think it is 'good'. Christians worship a god I despise while the bible mind fucks them,and I can see it doing that to them , but I keep my mouth shut even though I can see those chains around their mind binding it in a little box ..I'd rather just not get into a debate yet again.It's pointless because they think they NEED the belief system. Seeing the believer praise the monster they worship it makes me hate gods all the more.

And so when they speak of god to me I feel sick inside because my experience and knowledge of christianity is not like theirs is it's not limited to church approved sources and so I try to change the subject.


Christians I have realized cannot fathom why I feel as I do. Same goes for alot of other belief types too, they cannot grok that I really hate the gods that made this Earth and see this world as a prison.

I hate the creator and the way it abuses spirit so strongly here.And I am looking forward to my death because either it will be all over like a candle snuffed out and that's it or I will go back to my own kind of essence where there is no more conflict no more of this struggle and pain so characteristic of here..

So in alot of ways like you,I just shut up about my thoughts on things unknown.I may have to fight or flee the evil fist of the"creator" to escape this prison when I die if my pre birth memories are really pre birth memories .All I know is I do not want to reincarnate into flesh ever again.I hate this place. It hurts.

My views are unusual and I find If I say them it pretty much offends everybody. So in that way I know how you feel being an atheist. I am atheistic enough to admit all this god stuff in my head and all around me could be a huge folet et duex too. I do think Atheism makes sense but so does admitting I don't know it all too.. Because I don't know I live my life socially like an atheist would and try not to make it worse than it is already.I ain't gonna save the world by getting people to believe as I do anyway. I didn't make reality this way.I just want to get out of the whole mess and go home..Whatever that is, it ain't like this.
I just wish true believer people would let other people see through their own eyes for themselves. And Atheism is fine by me as long as it doesn't get religious..

[Mandate My Ass]

176. I found nothing offensive in your post

As a matter of fact, it was quite thoughtful and eloquent and truly contributes significantly to the conversation the OP was trying to initiate here. :toast:

[roguevalley]

159. I grew up in Oregon and they had blue laws there. Everything closed

on Sunday.

Some forms of Christians like to whine about their prosecution. It sort of comes historically with the territory. Everyone wants to be St. Sebastian, up until the arrows fly.

Old laws, new day. That is probably the problem with the hooch.

[Moderator]

177. locking.....

This has become inflammatory
with many personal attacks.