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Is Rick ("Purpose driven life") Warren one of them, or us?

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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-06-07 11:33 AM
Original message
Is Rick ("Purpose driven life") Warren one of them, or us?
He's Evangelical, which in my mind indicates a level of willful delusion. Still, two of his biggest issues are poverty and disease. And its not just pillow talk in his case - he has done a lot to feed the poor, and he runs a lot of AIDS prevention plans which don't always use Abstinence as their cornerstone.

So where does he stand?
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susanna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-06-07 11:39 AM
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1. From what I've read about him
he really avoids talking politically. I get the sense he has feelings on both sides, myself. But I do appreciate his works, as you mention. For that alone I respect him a great deal more than, let's say, Falwell or Robertson.
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bunkerbuster1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-06-07 11:40 AM
Response to Original message
2. He's someone to watch, I think
Based on what I've heard/read (not that much, frankly) he represents a lot of Evangelicals who don't seem at all crazy. I don't know that these folks are ever going to see eye to eye with most progressives on reproductive choice or gay rights, but I'm willing to work with guys like Warren on areas where we share common ground, You?

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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-06-07 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. It's a delicate dance
On one side, I would be willing to work on problems on which we both see the need. On the other hand, is he just a fair-minded evangelical, or one who is politically in place to keep the flocks from straying?

And again, on the other side, some of our greatest social movements in history have had the church behind them (the ending of slavery, women's sufferage, the labor movement, civil rights, etc.)

And again yet on the other hand, should the church always be the vote that sways the public, or should we give reason its due?
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bunkerbuster1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-06-07 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. Great question about the church being the vote that sways the public
I don't know the answer to that, but the truth is, we can't really expect to win elections if we alienate churchgoers. I think the answer is an ongoing educational process where both sides, ultimately, view one another with less suspicion, if such a thing is possible.

I don't claim to know that it is, but as a long-time religious skeptic it'd be my hope.
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MemphisTiger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-06-07 11:48 AM
Response to Original message
4. Their side doesn't like him much because of his so-called
"seeker sensitive" style of evangelism. Talk to any hardcore southern baptist and they all hate him.
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The Straight Story Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-06-07 11:54 AM
Response to Original message
5. If you're a chrisitian your are 'them' or you are delusional and need medications
at least, that is how I hear it on here often :)
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MissB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-06-07 11:56 AM
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6. He is someone I could find common ground with.
And I'm an atheist.
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-06-07 12:00 PM
Response to Original message
7. A lot of conservative evangelicals are like him. You just do not hear about that
part of them because marriage equality and choice always take center stage.
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Emit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-06-07 12:10 PM
Response to Original message
9. Google Rick Warren+Dominionism
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Rick+Warren+dominionism


I guess it depends on one's thoughts and/or concerns about the basic principles of dominionism, and whether this movement is in line with one's ideology. Just food for thought. Here are some of the criticisms against Warren:


~snip~

Dominionism goes global

Since the latter half of the 1990s the three major dominionists sects have openly converged into an ecumenical force. These three branches of dominionism are linked historically at many levels, and there is solid documentation to support the idea that the current convergence was planned and intentional.17

~snip~

2. The 3-legged stool. The dominionist’s kingdom must be advanced on Earth by gaining control of governments (State), utilizing business (Corporations) and partnering with social sector (Church) institutions. New bridges are being built based on triangular relationship between all three sectors of society. The Church is forming partnerships (or collaborations) with State and/or Corporate interests in order to implement dominion. Peter Drucker, the management guru, was instrumental in overseeing the implementation of this agenda – to create a three-legged “healthy society” globally – via Rick Warren of purpose-driven fame. Warren was mentored by Drucker, as were a number of other evangelical leaders such as Bob Buford of Leadership Network. Buford trained an entire generation of aspiring megachurch pastors in Drucker’s social philosophies. The megachurches are based on the Drucker corporate business model. Drucker’s ideas also undergird the faith-based (Church-State) movement which has been politically championed by the neoconservatives in Washington.21 Dominionism is significantly breaking down the walls between Church and Corporations (see point 4 below). In brief, the three-legged stool of dominionism looks like this:

CORPORATE + STATE = Fascism

STATE + CHURCH = Faith-based

CHURCH + CORPORATE = Fusion: the Merchant Church

Drucker’s 3-legged stool model

. . ., created ten years ago to honor Peter Drucker’s contributions to management and leadership, believes that a healthy society requires three vital sectors: a public sector of effective governments; a private sector of effective businesses; and a social sector of effective community organizations, including faith-based organizations. It furthers its mission to lead social sector organizations toward excellence in performance by providing educational opportunities and resources.22

Leadership Network




3. The phenomenon of Rick Warren. Rick Warren has single-handedly accomplished more to bring about a public convergence between the three sects of dominionism than any other individual. Warren received his doctorate from Fuller Theological Seminary under the tutelage of his advisor, C. Peter Wagner of the spiritual warfare dominionists.23 Dubbed “America’s Pastor” by the media, he is now embarking on an aggressive marketing campaign to set up a model of Peter Drucker’s “healthy society” in Rwanda, ostensibly under the banner of missionary and charitable endeavors. Warren has launched a grandiose plan to “transform” Africa – to “cure AIDS,” “end poverty” and “fulfill the Great Commission.” Warren transcends evangelicalism. He easily moves in internationalist circles (Aspen Institute) and aligns himself with rock stars (Bono). Warren has audaciously called for a “Second Reformation” based upon his global P.E.A.C.E. Plan, which is a study in dominionism.24 Leftists who fret over Warren’s foray into AIDS25 may miss the more serious dominionist ramifications of his overall global plan. Warren intends to amass the world’s largest volunteer “army” of “one billion foot soldiers” to implement his global P.E.A.C.E. Plan.26

The global P.E.A.C.E. plan to make disciples

In addition to its message of compassion, the conference sought to impart several other points emerging from Warren’s global P.E.A.C.E. plan.

Based on the Great Commission to make disciples (Matthew 28:18-20) and the Great Commandments to love God and to love our neighbors (Mark 12:28-34), the plan is Warren’s approach to attack what he calls the five “global giants” -- spiritual emptiness, egocentric leadership, extreme poverty, pandemic diseases and illiteracy and poor education, by Planting churches, Equipping servant leaders, Assisting the poor, Caring for the sick and Educating the next generation. 27

“Involvement in AIDS crisis urged at Saddleback conference,” Baptist Press





4. Marketplace ministries. Corporate business ventures are cloaking themselves in missionary garb to enter a nation and effect change. Creating an outpost for new corporate markets in undeveloped Third World countries, particularly those rich in natural resources, is being done in the name of “kingdom-building.” In order to establish a spiritual aura for these activities, a high-tech Global Day of Prayer was established in May 2005 by the Spiritual Warfare sect working together with Rick Warren.28 This annual event is designed to promote the dominionist agenda worldwide. Corporate “marketplace ministry” expansion is being done with claims of sustainable development, free-trade, and other community development activities that could screen the dominionist agenda. An influential marketplace mission organization is Transform World, which is one of the most patent examples of dominionism.29 Mission groups are taking up the quest for corporate expansion and financial gain by linking with business corporations, who are taking up the “mission” to expand their markets in the name of kingdom-building. Meanwhile, C. Peter Wagner has cooked up a new definition of ekklesia (Gk. church) to fuse the Church with the Corporate workplace.30

Marketplace Dominionism

What is required is a change of heart. The heart of the nation is the marketplace—the combination of business, education and government, the three arteries through which its life flows. If we take God’s power and presence to the marketplace we will see nations changed . . . .

To change a man you must first change his heart. This approach, of course, is typical of missionary organizations. Silvoso’s idea, though, is far more radical. Cities can be changed in nature. Countries can be redeemed. Entire cultures can be brought to "salvation." The land itself, in fact, can be healed.

And such a miraculous change is brought about through one primary avenue: God working through the marketplace. . . .

The primary means to true revival, though, takes place first in the marketplace.31

Business Reform interview with Ed Silvoso of Harvest Evangelism

The “business mission company”

To achieve its purpose, the business mission company must develop and invest in Great Commission efforts that are synergistic with and leveraged by the company's presence in strategically selected markets. It must set standards for evangelism and discipleship, measure results, and evaluate results per dollar invested for every sphere of influence identified in the market analysis. Company spheres of influence and the spheres of influence of each team member are specific market segments targeted for impact.... Any parts of the company that do not produce to standards are pruned. An axe is laid to the root of those that do not produce at all.32

John Cragin, On Kingdom Business:
Transforming Missions Through Entrepreneurial Strategies


~snip~


http://www.crossroad.to/articles2/05/sarah-leslie/dominionism.htm




Rick Warren: Mega-church Minister Linked to Paramilitary Video Game
(Updated)


by jhutson
Mon May 29, 2006 at 05:33:30 PM PDT


Originally posted on Talk to Action as "The Purpose Driven Life Takers."



Imagine: you are a foot soldier in a paramilitary group whose purpose is to remake America as a Christian theocracy, and establish its worldly vision of the dominion of Christ over all aspects of life. You are issued high-tech military weaponry, and instructed to engage the infidel on the streets of New York City. You are on a mission - both a religious mission and a military mission -- to convert or kill Catholics, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, gays, and anyone who advocates the separation of church and state - especially moderate, mainstream Christians. Your mission is "to conduct physical and spiritual warfare"; all who resist must be taken out with extreme prejudice. You have never felt so powerful, so driven by a purpose: you are 13 years old. You are playing a real-time strategy video game whose creators are linked to the empire of mega-church pastor Rick Warren, best selling author of The Purpose Driven Life.



~snip~

Some people have commented that the link between Mr. Warren's purpose driven empire and this product is casual. Let's be clear: Mark Carver is Executive Director of the Purpose Driven Church, and therefore works directly for Mr. Warren in one of the most senior roles in his empire. It would seem unlikely that Mr. Warren, who plans an international stealth evangelism campaign that already includes the president of Rwanda, is unaware of this project, the biggest Christian video game in history. Mr. Carver's role on the Advisory Board of Left Behind Games, the corporation created in October 2001 specifically to develop and market this violent video game, is an association clearly more active than a casual. People are involved on this Advisory Board because of their expertise, and their connections to markets -- in this case, Mr. Warren's. On its corporate web site -- part of its merchandising pitch -- Left Behind Games touts its association with Mr. Carver, and makes clear his prominent role in Mr. Warren's Purpose Driven Church.

In other words, Left Behind Games is invoking its association with Mr. Warren's Purpose Driven Church as part of its product marketing strategy. Do we think that Mr. Warren would allow his name brand and reputation to be casually invoked in a major business venture that involves one of the largest publishers in the Christian marketplace, who published the Left Behind novels, one of the best selling fiction series of all time? Does anyone think that Left Behind Games invoked the name brand of Mr. Warren's Purpose Driven Church without his permission? Since this possibility is farfetched, what we are looking at here is a business/marketing alliance between several evangelical business and ministerial entrepreneurs for whom the Great Commission also means great profits.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/5/29/203330/248
http://www.yuricareport.com/Dominionism/MinisterLinkedToVideoGame.html
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