Anyone who believes one car maker is better than another is deluded.

[Tyler Durden]

This is not just because I got fired by an auto supplier. Believe me, my conscience has been sore within me as to who I work for and what they make.

My late company supplied EVERYONE. Honda, Toyota, Mazda, Subaru, Ford, GM, DaimlerChrysler....

EVERYONE.

Each time I here someone talking about how their Camry or Prius is the bee's knees, it's hard to keep from laughing my ass off. EVERYTHING that CAN be made of plastic in those things IS made of plastic: all the way down to the radiator and cooling systems, transmission parts, firewall backup, front fascia...

EVERYTHING.

You think you bought quality with your Toyota, do you? GOD, I can't stop laughing. ALL cars today are put together like LEGO: farmed out parts dragged in and assembled. Yes, even your precious PRIUS. You might as well have bought Ford for all the difference in quality. And as to the technology running your hybrid...Do you REALLY think it's 100 degree F differential hardened? Do you have any idea how much that COSTS? You couldn't afford it with a 10 year mortgage.

I'm in Michigan, and I'm watching the car industry die. It's terminal, kids. Toyota, Nissan, Honda...they ain't gonna make it either.

And NO, I don't have any solutions. I don't think there are any. Well, economic collapse just HAPPENS sometimes. Maybe the only thing we can do is try to do it better next time. I doubt it, but no harm in trying.

[AllexxisF1]

1. Ok....

Sorry Pal, I will take the engineering of my Integra Type-R over some U.S. built piece of shit anyday.

Engineering, style, efficiency and most importantly build quality is definitely in foreign car makers.

[Tyler Durden]

2. I assume you're an engineer...and not paying attention.

I am a 10 year tenured Quality Specialist and Quality Engineer.

I've seen the blueprints...have you?

And by the way, how many people do you know now who can purchase a vehicle that goes for $19-$24K 6 YEARS USED??

My score on that: ZERO.

You're missing the point here: you HAVE to build something like an ESCORT or an old style BEETLE in the 100's to support an ACURA line producing ONE integra.

You can't run an industry producing nothing but HART SHAFFNER MARX suits: you have to have JC PENNY or the industry DIES.

Oh and by the way, the plastic parts (about 40% of your vehicle) are the same reground and de-polymerized garbage produced by the ton in Indonesia. They use Talc and fibreglass to make it stand up for a while.

[meldroc]

50. Welcome to value engineering...

The cars built today are NOT built to last. Well, technically, they are built to last... seven years or 100,000 miles. They'll run great up to that point, then everything starts to fail about at the same time. The engine grenades itself, the transmission grinds itself to dust, the body panels fall off, the upholstery tears, the dashboard cracks, the frame fails and the entire car falls apart. It's designed to last seven years or 100,000 miles, and the engineers have a century of accumulated knowledge and experience working for that exact goal. This is not new - Henry Ford noticed that the axles of Model T's lasted longer than other parts and accumulated in junkyards, so he ordered them replaced with cheaper axles.

For value engineering, the best way to explain it is to say you have a widget to build for a car. Given two equivalent designs, with one design requiring four screws to build, and another that requires only three, they'll take the one that requires three screws every single time. It doesn't matter that each screw only costs half a cent. When building millions of cars a year, those half-cents add up quickly. That philosophy goes into the design of every single component of almost every modern automobile.

I do like my VW Jetta, but I have no illusions. It's a 2000 model with about 90,000 miles on it. I take relatively good care of it, so I'll probably get another two years out of it, but eventually the plastics will degrade, the engine components will wear out, and it will be more trouble than it's worth to maintain it, so it will be time to trade up.

[Clark2008]

7. I bet my Mustang outlasts your car.

My last one didn't need a brake job - a BRAKE JOB - for 10 years.

Sorry - American cars are just built better now.

[MadHound]

15. Your Mustang? Please stop, you're making my sides hurt!

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

Tell you what, let's make this a fair fight. I will put my twenty year old Nova, a Toyota that was relabled over here, with 300,000 miles on it and still going strong, up against your new Mustang. You might have a chance then, but I doubt it. I've got a friend with an '82 Toyota that has a half million on it and still going, so you might be in for some serious competition.

[susanna]

53. Well, yeah. That's totally apples and oranges.

Your Toyota Nova will never be an iconic, everyone-knows-it-on-sight vehicle. :P

[flowomo]

3. well, my 10-year/100K Hyundai warranty has been helpful....

all cars might be built from the same junk, but my junk is protected for 7 years/64K longer than my friend's Ford junk.

[Tyler Durden]

If there still IS an industry in 10 years.

Ever heard of a guy named PONZI?

And it would help to remember someone has to be able to BUY cars to support your warranty.

I suggest you re-watch Fight Club. I am Bob's "alter ego."

[flowomo]

8. well, we're 5 years into the warranty, so I don't need all 10

[SammyWinstonJack]

16. *

:evilgrin:

[ObaMania]

12. I'm with you..

.. my Hyundai Tiburon was my bast car ever.


Of my recent cars..
I had a Monte Carlo - P.O.S.
I had a Lumina - HUGH P.O.S.
I have a PT Cruiser - P.O.S.

And my wife's 99.5 Pathfinder is a close runner up and is still going strong.

[flowomo]

22. yep, our Sonata has been fine (and very affordable)

and the 10/10 Kias are coming along very nicely as far as reliability.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

4. Should be rather simple to find out.

What's the average total mileage for one company's cars versus another?

[Roland99]

5. There are different levels of quality control at each mfr.

For example,

A Ford plant in Oakville (Toronto) made minivans for Ford/Mercury and Nissan (Windstar/Villager/Quest). The Nissan Quest models had to undergo additional and more stringent quality control tests than did the Ford/Mercury products.

[Tyler Durden]

17. That only made it a better INSPECTED product, not a better product.

Inspection catches 70-80% of defects. Run those odds a few times, and errors pass every car.

You're kidding yourself.

[Roland99]

21. Which still results in a better product going to the customer if defects are caught before sales.

[Tyler Durden]

32. Nope.

Go study Quality and statistics. Inspection only catches 70-80% of defects. Has nothing to do with Quality which comes from design, engineering, and BUILDING OUT OF GOOD RAW MATERIALS.

Sorry. Doesn't work that way. You can fiddle and inspect until you're blue in the face, and you're still building shit.

[The2ndWheel]

6. The only sustainable mode of travel is with those

legs. Even then, we need energy to walk. Even then, we eventually die. In the end, at least, one way might actually leave a habitat behind. But hey, we need to get there, as quickly as possible, even if it means we have to go further and take more time doing it all the time.

[madrchsod]

9. i agree with you

i too assembled-not made- parts for the same companies you just mentioned.in fact they just went to a even cheaper supplier for many of their parts because the indian`s undercut the south koreans on price ,the quality is crap but the cost is lower. there`s some differences between these parts but basically it`s not much. the problem is not with the workers, engineers, or lower management in the usa. it`s the corporations inability to react to the changing market.
by the way the part i used to assembled had 2 usa made products out of 20...so much for "american made" products

[MadHound]

10. Sorry, don't buy that

Sure, the cars are all made of the same material, but the question is how is that material put together, how good is the quality control, etc. etc.

Personal experience has found that Japanese makes last a hell of a lot better, especially the engines, than domestic makes do. I've had the bodies on Chevy Luvs(Isuzu product relabled) rot out from around me before the engine dies. Meanwhile, the comparable Ford small truck has its engine blow at 120,000 miles:shrug:

Same with Toyota. I have a '87 Chevy Nova(a relabled Toyota) still going strong twenty years and 300,000 miles later. Meanwhile the comparable domestic cars are now rotting in junkyards.

You may be an engineer and worked the factory. But I've taken apart enough cars and put them back together to also know a thing or two, and frankly you're full of it. Tolerances are tighter for Japanese vehicles, quality is better, and they don't skimp on the small stuff, you know, like Ford has now done twice with the exploding Crown Vics and the exploding Pintos.

Yes, the material itself is virtually identical, but the quality lies in how the vehicle is put together. And the Japanese have been putting together the higher quality vehicles for the past thirty years.

[Tyler Durden]

33. Not any more.

You won't be working on the stuff their making now. Black boxes, and plug ins. And the replacements are made in INDONESIA.

[tandot]

11. "Toyota, Nissan, Honda...they ain't gonna make it either" ... are you serious?

My 1998 Toyota Corolla has 130,000 miles and gets 36 mpg. I bought it in 2001 and NEVER had any problems with it.

Every April, www.consumerreports.org releases their Annual Auto Issue with ratings on reliability on new and used cars. I guess all of those people who rated the reliability of their Toyotas and Hondas the highest (including myself) are deluded :eyes:

I understand that you are frustrated. However, U.S. companies have focused on producing obscenely huge gas guzzlers. If you want to blame anyone, blame the companies who ignore the consumer (and the environment) and make decisions that cost American workers their jobs.

[Tyler Durden]

20. My 1997 Saturn SL1 has 150,000 on it and gets 40 MPG,

So what? And I suppose all of those folks who use to think the Pig Bush was the paragon of honesty were right too?

THIS IS ALL MARKETING, and those reports are NOT from engineers. They are from PEOPLE with PERCEPTIONS.

I repeat: they are ALL JUNK and I hope your are comfortable in your delusions, except that you're under one of the limits: anything made after 2000-2001 is a quantum leap higher on the junk scale.

Comparing your Corolla and my Saturn to the shit being made today lis like comparing apples and hand grenades.

[Roland99]

23. I owned Chryslers from 1985 - 2003...

My '96 Sebring was my last American mfr's car.

My Mazda 6 has over 60,000 miles on it and has only been in for oil changes. My Sebring by 60k miles already had windows not rolling up properly, replaced front rotors. At 70,000 miles it needed a transmission rebuilt. At 90,000 miles the rear glass separated from the convertible top.

[tandot]

31. I am sorry that you are so angry.

It is great that your Saturn gets such a great gas mileage.

People will always need transportation and the the car industry must produce what is best for the environment and the consumer. No doubt that a company who produces "bad" cars will go down.

I can't say why all those a@@holes voted for Bush...most of them probably the same people who drive all those huge gas guzzlers.

[Tyler Durden]

36. I'm really only angry because I had to lie for so many years...

...and because if I could I'd keep lying: my family needs my income and healthcare.

Being a whore is tough. Sometimes options are limited.

[deadmessengers]

13. I don't buy it.

My personal experience with American cars:

1984 Plymouth Horizon: Transmission needed a full rebuild at 78k: $1700
1987 Chevy Cavalier: Transmission needed a full rebuild at 74k, head warped at 99k.
1978 Chevrolet Monte Carlo: Went through 3 water pumps in the 3 years I owned it, finally cracking the block due to overheating after the failure of the 4th water pump.
2000 Ford F-150: Still running at 101k, on 3rd rear end, total of $2700 to repair.

My personal experience with Japanese cars:

1990 Mazda 323: Ran fine - no major repairs needed: stolen w/151k.
1994 Nissa Sentra: Ran fine - no major repairs needed. Replaced with newer car in 2000 - 147k on odometer at the time.
2000 Honda Accord: Transmission needed to be replaced at 93k - covered by Honda under voluntary recall. No out-of-pocket cost whatsoever to me - they even paid for a rental car.

My personal experience is that Japanese automakers really are putting out a higher quality product.

[HughBeaumont]

19. On that same token -

1992 Nissan Sentra - Replaced the Exhaust system, the muffler 4 times, the entire steering mechanism (previous to this, 4 tie rods on the front went bad), went through brakes like a fiend, replaced the clutch 3 times. Junked it at 153,000 miles.

1997 Cavalier - 223,000 miles. Only major repair other than the occasional brake job (which costs me very little since I have a friend do them) was a leaking water pump: $400. SAME engine. SAME clutch. Still driving it.

And to be fair -

1987 Ford Escrap - This server doesn't have the space to list how many issues I had with this Bicmobile, restaurant-quality piece of shit. You name the part and process; it repeatedly went bad and needed replaced. This thing ate more oil than America on any given day. Didn't even last 130k before I gave it up, after it's pressure sensor (or timing system, whatever) failed on me while I was driving and nearly killed me.

Every Cavalier we've ever driven in my family (and we've had three) NEVER gave us issues. I'm wondering why it's such a hated car.

[Tyler Durden]

24. And MY experience with "Japanese Quality":

Datsun 210: JUNK. Cooling fans cratered, after market AC never worked right.

Datsun 310: JUNK. Self-destructed by blowing a connecting rod and destroying the engine 5000 miles out of waranty.

Subaru wagon: JUNK. TWO warped heads, replaced TWICE 5000 miles out of warranty, cost 500 bucks to replace the washer pump: IT WAS UNDERNEATH THE RIGHT FRONT FENDER which had to be pulled.

Toyota Sienna: JUNK. LEANED on the slide door sheet metal and it BENT in. AC work done, Fan work done, radio died-500 bucks to replace, out of warranty.

My Saturn burns a LITTLE oil at 150000 miles.


This is NOT singing the praises of Saturn. They used to build a FAIR car, not a great one. And NOW they are just another GM switch a nameplate.

ALL CARS ARE JUNK.

[AZBlue]

51. Oh, I had a 91 Mazda 323 - loved that car!

eom

[gravity]

14. Cars today are as reliable as ever

It doesn't matter if its made out of plastic as long as it works.

[cynatnite]

18. I'm sure looking at blueprints...

nuts and bolts are all basically the same...

But you're forgetting one thing while you laugh your ass off.

Normal wear and tear on vehicles vary with their users. Some drivers take good care of their cars and others don't. I knew a guy who drove his car for five years and ruined it by not having an oil change or any other upkeep. We've had our old car for 13 years and just two weeks ago it had it's first brake job. Everything works great. It has 180,000 miles on it.

The drivers of these cars and how well they maintain them invalidates your argument.

[Tyler Durden]

27. DaimlerChrysler secret:

PACIFICA and congruent platforms have changed out all of their radiator hardware: it's now made of polypropylene fortified with glass fibers. Use the wrong brand of coolant, and it will slowly dissolve.

This is typical of new cars, INCLUDING the Japanese.

[WinkyDink]

25. The car industry isn't dying. Maybe the American/European one is.

What? Are people all of a sudden walking and riding bikes?

[Tyler Durden]

28. Who's buying the cars?

Take a look in the next parking lot you pass, and count the cars newer than 5 years.

If this market (the biggest in the world) can no longer buy the cars, who will?

[taught_me_patience]

41. I guess you don't live in LA

where a new BMW 3-series is about as popular as a new Honda Accord.

[Tyler Durden]

46. Tick, Tick, Tick. Time is running out on that nonsense.

About how long do you think people in Detroit, Flint and other cities will be homeless and hungry to let THAT go on?

Personally, I'd be ashamed to claim what you just did. It's a perfect example of why this country is hitting the skids.

[Jacobin]

26. call me delusional, then

my experience with american made versus foreign made vehicles over the past 40 years leads me to believe that the toyotas and hondas I've owned rarely every broke (Previa with 360,000 miles finally bit the dust, after having only brake work, tuneups and oil changes) whereas GM vehicles began having MAJOR and expensive repairs for parts that failed after only 60,000 or so miles. One GM car had 3 power window motors go out in one year after the vehicle was only 4 years old.

You may be absolutely correct, but my experience is directly contrary to yours

[Tyler Durden]

30. Everyone's anecdotal experience is different.

My ESCORT made it to 300K with no major work. My two Saturns have made it past 150K with no major work. They're all dating back to the late 90's.

Your PAST experience has nothing to do with what is being made NOW. Take my word for it.

[Jacobin]

43. My anecdote

deals with about 12 vehicles over the years belonging to me, my wife and my sons. I call it 'experience' and the experience is consistent between Honda/Toyotas and american made products.

[Tyler Durden]

47. You still cite vehicles over 4 years old.

Talk about something made last week.

[susanna]

56. Your last sentence is the kicker, Tyler.

I am with you - what the domestics made even as recently as the 2000/01 timeframe are archaic in terms of fit/finish and the quality of today's models. (I also work in the domestic industry.)

IMHO, the improvements have more to do with the constant advances of technologies like 3D CAD modeling. It's amazing that we can now find out where there are issues with interlocking parts on a computer screen in seconds. Before, we needed to build a prototype to understand how things would mesh (or not), costing us valuable re-work time when we could least afford it.

It is going to take a long time to overcome the old perceptions, but kudos to you (in the OP) for pointing out the general inbred-edness of the auto industry. Someone had to say it. ;-)

on edit: clarity

[qwlauren35]

29. What does "Better" mean?

For me, better means longer lasting and better gas mileage. And I see major differences.

My '97 Honda is up to 208,000 miles. My girlfriend's 2000 Mercedes SUV is around 236,000. Can the average car go the distance?

For me, that's the question.

The aspect of plastic is key for those who want to be driving a bullet-proof tank. But that's not why I drive a car.

[Tyler Durden]

35. You just named the problem: '97 and 2000.

Back that far there were still some fair products to be bought. My Escort wagon went 300K. BUT NOT TODAY. Check under your hoods and count the major structural and mechanical components made of plastic and other garbage.

Thought so.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

34. Only American car I trust is the Cadillac.

I have a 93 pimpmobile. 90K miles on it and still got lots of life in it.

[Tyler Durden]

37. In 1993 it wasn't a terrible car.

not so great on the mileage, but built like a Sherman Tank.

They no longer build it even strong: just shitty.

[Tyler Durden]

38. In 1993 it wasn't a terrible car.

Not so great on the mileage, but built like a Sherman Tank.

They no longer build it even strong: just shitty.

[Kelly Rupert]

39. Yeah, we're not going to have cars any more. The entire world is going to stop buying them.

:eyes:

[MazeRat7]

40. Color me deluded then, I like the concept of "lego" cars...

Standardized parts, lower assembly cost, lighter weight materials, all kind of important when it comes to total cost of ownership.

MZr7

[taught_me_patience]

42. Here is my experiences w/cars

1986 Volvo 240 bought used in 1994: Great. Never had a problem. Car was my first, handed to my siser, handed to my cousin, handed to my second cousin. Finally blew up w/well over 200k miles on it.

1987 Honda Accord DX passed to me from dad in 1998: AC went bad at 30k. Clutch went bad at 100k. Bad rust.

1988 Ford Escort: 140k miles. Bought for $900 bucks and drove for 8 months. No problems. Sold for $800.

1990 Honda Accord given to me by grandma in 1999: POS. Transmission rebuilt at 95k miles. Bad brakes and constantly overheating. I sold for $1,200 in 2002 150k miles and felt lucky to get that.

1987 Camaro Z28: Nice car. More of a project car, but fun to drive. Unbeliveably cheap plastic interior. The engine died at 100k miles.

1993 Toyota Camary: Timing belt broke early at 60k miles. Ignition coil died at 120k miles. Otherwise no problems other than regular maintenence. Car has 180k miles and is still going. Burns a little oil now, though.

2001 Crown Vic: Ran good. Had a constant problem w/ignition coils (easily diagnosed and fixed). Leaky rear axle seals killed rear brakes. Wonderful car but got only 17mpg on the highway and didn't have as much power as I would have liked. I attribute this to horrible pushrod technology of Ford. Horrible resale value.

2005 Honda Accord Coupe: current car. Unbelievable gas milage (30mpg ave city/hwy). No problems but only have 50k miles on it. Original tires are still OK, which is a bit surprising.

taught.

[Forkboy]

44. Return your broken carseats to their upright sitting position!

;)

[nonconformist]

45. I'm from Michigan too, and most of my family is employed/drawing pension from the auto industry

This is so depressing and sad. We moved away for a few years for my husband's job... now I'm not sure if we'll ever be able to go back. I miss home. :(

[Tyler Durden]

48. These folks mostly just don't "get" it, do they?

To paraphrase Dickens, one might hope they learn by experience.

[susanna]

58. Hi, nonconformist.

I'm in Michigan and I think it's safe to say many of us feel like we're in a beseiged fortress. And that's on a good day. You might be better off to live elsewhere for now. :-(

This is not to say that folks here are not doing the best they can and sticking it out in the face of it all, but I have lived here for many boom/bust cycles, and this one is by far the worst I have experienced. Peace and hope to you and your family.

[walldude]

49. LMAO... the only "brand loyality" I ever had for cars was

what was the best used piece of shit I could afford at the time. I have never in my life been able to afford a new car.

[RummyTheDummy]

52. All I know is what I experience

Having owned several Hondas and Toyotas and several American cars. My Accord has 190k on it now and I've spent less than 2,500 on maintence in 8 years. I'll take it. Sorry you got fired, but it's hard to agree that Honda and Toyota don't produce quality cars that last a long time. It's been my EXPERIENCE that they do.

[LSdemocrat]

54. Sorry to say, but as someone born in 1980, I just don't know any better

[susanna]

59. That's kinda sad in its own weird way. n/t

[skipos]

55. Hey, I will need to buy a car soon

and I have been asking people in the know what they would recommend. What say you?

Your post is interesting, and not surprising.

[sammythecat]

57. It's all relative. Like most things in life.

Maybe they ARE all shit, but some make better shit than others and smart consumers buy that shit.
Gotta buy sumthin'. I live in the middle of nowhere and have to have some piece of shit to haul my ass back and forth to work.

It's never been a secret that they give us as little as they can, for as much as they can.

[MilesColtrane]

60. "Anyone who believes one car maker is better than another is deluded."

Well, there was a big difference 20 years ago.

And for that reason I will never buy another American car. Because GM fucked me.

My 1985 Chevy Blazer was the first new car I had ever bought.

Shortly after the warranty expired the oil pressure (idiot) light went out at the same time the oil pump did on the freeway. I had to have the entire short block replaced.
Oh, and I went through two transmissions. (The only other person I knew who had an '85 Blazer also had to replace two transmissions.)

I always wondered why 80's GM products were such POS.
Then I saw "Roger & Me". That explained a lot.

Now driving a 2001 Nissan Pathfinder with 53K on it. I expect it will last at least another five years, probably ten to twelve.

[NuttyFluffers]

61. somebody needs a hug!

:hug:

[GreenZoneLT]

62. Eh, could be worse. Could be the '70s

I own a 1974 Chevy Nova, and I defy anyone to find a worse period in car manufacturing than American cars of the mid-1970s. We were cranking out crap that would stall out leaving the DEALER's lot. Not to mention rust if you washed it.

Exhibit B: Chevy Vega.

Exhibit C: Ford Pinto.

Game over. I win!

[Blue_Tires]

63. TTT n/t