I think it should be very plain to the world.

[Joe for Clark]

We are not Chavez supporters. In fact, many of us, our family, fought communists when it counted - and we have zero tolerance.

We don't mix our dislike for the president with any outside dislike.

we dislike him, at least I do - but he gets credit for being American. We just think he should be sitting on a ranch in Texas and not running the country.

But to compare him to Chavez - even I don't think that.

Joe

[niyad]

1. let's see, chavez was LEGALLY elected twice, and has much popular support, is intelligent and

articulate, and actually cares about the people of his country. so, comparing that illiterate, lying, thieving, clueless cretin in the white house (who only got there through the efforts of five REPUBLICAN-appointed supreme court justices) to him is MOST unfair to chavez.

[Gabi Hayes]

2. commie! hang him! hang ALL those anti-american venezuelans!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x355476

[Joe for Clark]

3. I really hope you don't believe that.

I think most things you say may be true - except for one.

The bastard is American - and though misguided, I think he sees things thru that lense.

Chavez, in another time - is just a target in one of our families gunsights - rightfully.

Chavez can go screw himself - B*sh needs to go back to his ranch, and we may still get an American president that looks out for us. Guess I am hopelessly naive.

Joe

[niyad]

8. what in the name of sanity are you talking about? another time? gunsights? what planet are you ON

so you think der chimpenfuhrer is okay because he's an AMERICAN? how bloody stupid and ignorant is THAT? so was joe mccarthy--so was alger hiss, so was ames, so was jeffrey daumer, mcveigh, nichols, jim jones. . .shall I go on? what the F*** does bush having been born in this country have to do with ANYTHING?

your family fought commies? when and why? did they support the HUAC, too?

what in sanity's name was the POINT of your post? WHAT exactly has chavez done to YOU? or this country, for that matter?

[Joe for Clark]

11. Point was an opportunity to diavow him.

That is all.

If you don't, fine. Ignore it.

If most do - it should be registered. Some people think you don't. It should be made clear.

Why do you think it is more than that??

Joe

[Richard Steele]

67. And expressing your RW murder-fantasy political worldview was just a bonus?

[TahitiNut]

4. Agreed.

100%

[Gabi Hayes]

5. just curious

is it possible to dis-recommend a thread?

[TahitiNut]

21. Over at /. (Slashdot) there is.

:shrug:

[porphyrian]

6. Why does everyone keep talking about Chavez? Did I miss something?

Isn't he all the way in the other hemisphere and completely uninvolved in Libby being convicted, FBI whistleblowers proving illegal government wiretapping or the fact that we're about to experience the second worst economic depression in US history?

[Richard Steele]

69. Maybe Pat Robertson sent out another eMail recently? nm

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

7. Your family fought commies when it counted?

When was that?

[Joe for Clark]

9. Actual fights? -65, 68 and 1970.

I didn't count dad, he/his guys - used to sit in fighterbombers waiting for the "attack" that never came.

My brothers did - not counting all my brother in laws that did too.

There was a reason I always had mixed feelings about Viet Nam - and I still do.

The day Saigon fell - dear god, half my family left friends there about to get the snot kicked out of them and half my family protested the war all along.

You know - there was never any mixed message to us about the kids, the "soldiers" - there were always good kids - they always will be. It was a job, man.

Joe

[niyad]

10. and what the F*** does ANY of this have to do with chavez? what the HELL is your problem with the

man? he isn't threatening this country, he isn't doing anything to YOU. WHAT IS YOUR PROBLEM?

and kindly answer my questions about "american" bush, as well. you are making NO sense at all.

[Gabi Hayes]

12. sillly person! he's a.....COMmunist!

it's so obvious.

he's a dictator, don't you know?

he's anti-american.

what could be worse than that?

[Joe for Clark]

14. Ok - I will try -

Mr Chavez - his interest is certainly not in what is best for our country, he is a communist - represents the interest of another country - and he can be dangerous to us. That clear??

I give B*sh this much credit- he doesn't have an interest in our worst case scenario. He has some interest in what is best for America - I just think he has no idea what that may be.

But damn. I will not give an inch to the "Chavez's" -

Does this do it for you???

Joe

[niyad]

23. let me clue you in, it isn't chavez' job to do 'what is in the best interest of THIS country"

(at least that is what I think you were trying to say, although quite poorly) do you realize he is the head of a sovereign nation? he doesn't HAVE to formulate policies on the basis of whether they are good for THIS country (and it would be nice if america tried being concerned about the rest of the world)

BUSH isn't doing anything positive for this country, or aren't you paying attention?

I repeat, what the F*** is your problem with chavez, what has he done to YOU? what has he DONE to this country? oh, never mind, he isn't bowing to us as world lord and masters, right?

the very fact that you credit bush at all shows that you are completely clueless.

No, you haven't answered my questions at all, just rambled in a completely pointless manner, spewing the usual reichwing crap about chavez.

let me say this again--chavez is NOT required, as the LEGALLY ELECTED HEAD OF A SOVEREIGN NATION, to defer to this country's demands and wishes? do you understand what the word SOVEREIGN means?

[Joe for Clark]

27. I absolutely know he has another interest - do you??

[niyad]

30. what is it that you think you know? more reichwing spin and BS? WHAT THE F*** is your problem?

I repeat, what the HELL has chavez done to YOU? done to this country? name ONE SINGLE thing that he has done that has actually threatened this country in any way, shape or form--and be explicit, please, with actual citations and proof (and please note, FR and worldnut daily do NOT count as legit sources, nor does conservapedia)

and you STILL have not explained why you think bush is so wonderful and cares about this country--

[Joe for Clark]

39. B*sh so wonderful - who the hell are you??

I am pretty sure my kid doesn't survive this war - and you are telling me that I think he is "wonderful" -

I really think - if you learned nothing this far in life - you should take remedial english.

"Actual citations and proof" - huh -that is just sad.

Joe

[niyad]

42. ** I ** need remedial english? that's funny, coming from someone who has pretty much failed to

write a single coherent sentence in this entire thread.

you have a problem with "citations and proof"? do you not understand the words?

try again, junior. you have merely demonstrated bill engvahl's "here's your sign" riff.

[Joe for Clark]

44. Junior -huh -

I like that and I wish I was.

I don't mean ill to you. I am not so sure where I belong anymore. I wish I did.

Joe

[Richard Steele]

70. People who ask you to PROVE your ridiculous assertations are "just sad", eh?

[tnlefty]

24. Why should the elected leader of another country be interested in

"what is best for our country" as opposed to the interests of the people of his country? Bush** has no interest in this country nor the people who live, work, and pay taxes here, except for the "have mores".

I remember Dimson** vacationing during Katrina while Chavez offered to help ease gas shortages. Bush** just ate cake and then played guitar. I remember the Princess of Death denying aid from many nations who offered it, while she was shoe shopping and takin' in plays in NYC.

No form of government that I've seen is dangerous until it takes on an AUTHORITARIAN structure, and it seems to me that we are more at risk in this country under Dimson** than I can remember. This is like Nixon on mega steroids.

So I have to ask, why are you concerned with the leader of another country right now when, in my mind, we need to be taking care of business here at home?

[Joe for Clark]

31. Oh, because I understand that the gravity of that oil he sells us

runs at specific refining capacities. And I know he is making movements that could shut off product.

It is a strange day. If you really believe that movement of raw product (oil) is the only thing we need to grease our wheels - oh, think again. All you have to do to screw with us, is shut down the flow of product that a given refinery can deal with - that simple.

WIth every statement, movement that man has ever made he is a threat to the United States.

He is a danger - and he is not our friend.

Joe

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

40. I thought you were a capitalist.

Now you're upset with Chavez for controlling supply?

:rofl:

[tnlefty]

41. Considering that our government instigated a coup attempt against

him I think that he is justified in being wary of the nuts who are in charge of our government right now.

I understand that we're in Iraq right now to take over the country's resources, but I have to ask time and time again, wouldn't it just be better to make honest trade agreements for oil as opposed to the expense in lives and raiding the treasury to get what this country needs, especially since Bush** hasn't done a damned thing to initiate a policy for this country that would wean us off of oil?

I'm sorry that you seem to feel so paranoid about Chavez. I don't view him as any more of a threat to the US than leaders who refuse to address alternative energy in this country.

[ProfessorGAC]

68. Utter Nonsense

This "reds under my bed" mentality you are displaying has you thinking incoherently. Just because Chavez has socialist tendencies (he's no communist), you think he is not possessing of self-preservation. Cutting off oil flow to this country is economic suicide for Venezuela. He would have no interest at all in economic war with the U.S. and its allies.

You may not like him, but if you think he's that stupid, you could not be more wrong. Participation in the oil embargo of the 70's crippled more than half of the particpating countries for years. Only the Saudi's, UAE, Kuwait and Iran made out on that deal. And, it would be worse now for the participants.

So, your doomsday scenario simply cannot and will not occur.
The Professor

[walldude]

He has some interest in what is best for America

I can't believe you actually said that about Bush. The man is dismantling everything this country stood for. Whatever your feelings about Chavez you are missing the boat on the Bush regime.

[Joe for Clark]

58. If I said something nice about the guy -

not intended.

I would come up with something nice about him before I could ever say something "nice" about Venezualia - that is true.

I think my typing skills are getting me in trouble after reading your post.

Joe

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

32. Oh.

So when you say "when it counted" you mean when it was completely senseless.

[Joe for Clark]

49. I saw this - you know whew a fight really count s- do you??

It that day when the guy sitting next to you get his number punched - that is when it counts.

You think it is political? - well, no it is not.

Not for the guys that live it isn't.

Joe

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

50. I know that Vietnam wasn't about fighting commies.

And it didn't count for shit.

Do your brothers know you're into this McCarthyist nonsense? Because that's just the sort of thinking that got 58,000 of their comrades killed for nothing.

[Joe for Clark]

52. My parents were officers in WWII.

Uncle John served in command in 3rd army back then. Uncle Len was the XO on a carrier.

Every single one against the Viet Nam war - and they knew war.

It is not about war exactly -

The kids that go to war - they give up so much - they don't have a voice in the politics - they do what they are told. It is that ability to do what you are told - especially when you don't agree with it - it is so admirable -it really is.

My sister was a charter member of sds and a member of the bsu (we are not black, by the way) Every one of my brothers and my parents supported her 100 %.

Some things are never simple - huh.

Best to you in any event.

Joe

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

62. Were your parents fighting the Soviets?

[Duer 157099]

63. "they do what they are told..."

Joe wrote:

The kids that go to war - they give up so much - they don't have a voice in the politics - they do what they are told. It is that ability to do what you are told - especially when you don't agree with it - it is so admirable -it really is.

I'm at a loss here Joe. This thread is the first time I've been utterly perplexed by your posting.

So, the soldiers/guards during Nazi Germany, you know, they also behaved this way, doing what they were told, perhaps against their conscience. Was it admirable then? If not, why not?

[PassingFair]

13. You MUST be high.

Bush gets NO credit for "being" American.

He is only DIScredited.

Chavez does more for his people on a BAD day
than Bush has done for US in his entire term.

Cough up the poison pill, Joe....

[Gabi Hayes]

18. Ha...Chavez has helped more Americans than Bush has.

How many thousands has he helped with his heating oil subsidization?

that alone tops the number of Americans Bush has helped.

there arent't that many gillionaires, are there?

[Joe for Clark]

45. If I get to be high I'd cough up anything you want.

[Richard Steele]

72. Now -THAT- I actually believe! nm

[brentspeak]

15. The hero worship for Chavez is sickening; the guy is a total demogogue

[Gabi Hayes]

16. demogogue? is that the new name for

democrat?

good job, though. you spelling sickening correctly.

[niyad]

28. hero worship? simply because many don't believe he is satan? that we actually think that dealing

with the cretin currently squatting in the oval office is slightly MORE important than worrying about the head of a country that isn't threatening us, has no wmd's, and wasn't involved in 9/11?

oh, that's right--it's all about the OIL.

get a clue, okay? quit drinking the kool-ade.

[gollygee]

17. I'm not Venuezuelan

I don't even know how to spell it. So it really isn't my business as I have no rights to vote for or against him.

His people seem happy enough with him. Happier than we are with our "leader" anyway.

I don't get the point of your post.

[Rex]

19. We? You got a rabbit in your pocket?

Bush is far worse than Chavez - point out the useless war Chavez started. Chavez is lightyears better than Bush and Cheney! Not that it is hard to be better than Bush and Cheney, a cockroach gets more respect from me than B&C.

[TahitiNut]

22. Tapeworm.

:shrug:

[Rex]

25. Hmm...

Porifera get more respect from me...

[roamer65]

20. I don't think "the world"...

gives a rat's ass what Americans think anymore. We don't rank very high on surveys. Welcome to the end of the American empire.

[Joe for Clark]

26. I do not care in the least what the world thinks right now.

I deeply care what we think.

I thought I understood that - I am trying to figure out if I was wrong.

Joe

[roamer65]

33. Germany and Japan thought the same of the rest of the world, too.

...and look what happened to them.

AP News tonite had a professor saying he's never seen "dislike" of the US at these levels...ever.

[niyad]

35. and THAT statement sums up a great deal of what is wrong with this country. you are such a little

hypocrite it is pathetic. let's see, chavez is supposed to formulate policies based on what YOU think is good for THIS country, but we don't have to give a damn what other countries think?

are you even REMOTELY capable of seeing the hypocricy there?

your lack of interest in what the world thinks of this country IS a major part of the problem. der chimpenfuhrer doesn't care (hell, he doesn't even care what americans think!!) darth cheny doesn't care, sleezy doesn't care, the entire reichwingnut cabal doesn't care. clueless, self-absorbed cretins, one and all.

thank you, by the way, for telling us so clearly that you are not to be taken in the slightest bit seriously.

[Joe for Clark]

37. Then I guess I am a hypocrite.

But I sure am a hypocrite that understands this deal.

You think I don't care what the world thinks of us - Man, I am not sure what we think.

And I care a hell of a lot more what we think then they do.

Joe

[niyad]

38. you have demonstrated that you understand NOTHING. but thanks for letting me know exactly

how much attention to pay to any of your posts in the future.

[Joe for Clark]

43. Same .

[rug]

29. What is this "we" horseshit? Please step away.

[GreenPartyVoter]

66. Seriously

[EFerrari]

34. Chavez is not a communist and Bush is not a patriot. n/t

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

36. Some in my family were Communists.

One uncle of mine was an organizer for the ILWU in San Francisco and quite proud of his party membership.

[Joe for Clark]

46. I will look in the morning.

If more people think that I am wrong about this - then I am in the wrong place.

That is ok.

Is what it is.

Joe

[PassingFair]

51. You are in the right place...

You are of the wrong mind on THIS subject.

I suggest you look further into the situation.

Less knee-jerk reaction to "commie" threats.

Seriously.

[Joe for Clark]

54. Some things are black and white.

I have no knee jerk reactions to consequences so so serious.

I know the consequences really well.

I appreciate all you posted though.

Joe

[liberalhistorian]

47. Excuse me while I

put on my flamesuit..............OK, all set. Ahem. Chavez is not the "hero" too many here seem to think that he is. He is an out-and-out unabashed dictator who thinks nothing of suppressing his political opposition while making it seem as if HE is the one being persecuted. He exploits the poor in his country for his own advantage while making it seem as if he really gives a damn about them and is working to improve their conditions. In short, he's pulled the wool over the eyes of far too many people, intelligent people who should damn well know better. As far as being legally elected-I highly doubt it. Very highly.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

48. An unabashed democratically elected dictator, eh?

[Joe for Clark]

53. Mr "Liberalhistorian" -

Probably won't be a good day tomorrow for me -but I want you to know - I think your grasp on world history is really good. I think highly of you. And I truly wish you the best. You have a very sharp mind, I think.

Joe

[Dorian Gray]

60. I'm curious

Let me preface this with the idea that I am NOT a fan of Chavez. I don't think of him often, and I don't know much about him. When I do think of him, I am not a cheerleader or fan. I'm wary of him, primarily because of his ties with Ahmadinejad, whom I don't trust at all. That added with his very vocal annoyance with the USA pushes me to a watchful distrust.

I am curious, however, to know in which way he has exploited the poor in his own country. Most of my distrust for the man has to do with his relationship with other world leaders who have obvious disdain for us. I've also known stories about his stronghold on the media and some other Venezuelan industries that make me nervous. But, I've never heard about him exploiting the downtrodden in his own country. That doesn't mean it's not possible, though, as I've admitted to not following that much about him. So, any information you have regarding that, I'd like to know. Thanks.

[Balbus]

64. My god, it's a pleasure to read the thoughts of an enlightened person.

Very well done! :applause:

It just amazes me how this asshat has the complete adulation of some many ham-n-eggers because of his obsession with Bush.

[Duer 157099]

71. You wrote:

Excuse me while I put on my flamesuit..............OK, all set. Ahem. Chavez is not the "hero" too many here seem to think that he is. He is an out-and-out unabashed dictator who thinks nothing of suppressing his political opposition while making it seem as if HE is the one being persecuted. He exploits the poor in his country for his own advantage while making it seem as if he really gives a damn about them and is working to improve their conditions. In short, he's pulled the wool over the eyes of far too many people, intelligent people who should damn well know better. As far as being legally elected-I highly doubt it. Very highly.

You of course realize that your description could as easily be applied to Bush, yes?

Not a flame, just an observation.

[Richard Steele]

73. Every international monitor who observed Venezuela's election says you're WRONG.

Is that suit just flameproof, or is it FACTproof as well?

Because, in FACT, it seems that the Venezuelan system is actually
a MODEL of transparent & democratic electoral process.

I'll take the FACTS compiled by hundreds of impartial observers
over a single biased & unsubstantiated OPINION any day. Sorry.

[scarletwoman]

55. What do you mean "we", white man?

NO ONE "gets credit for being an American" in my book. An accident of birth in a particular geographic location means absolutely NOTHING.

You're either are a good human being or you're not. The location of your birth has nothing to do with it. Bush is an asshole of the lowest order in ANY location, and it is to our everlasting SHAME as Americans that he was enabled to rise to power in our country.

But you're right about one thing, there's no comparison between Bush and Chavez. Chavez, unlike Bush, was clearly elected in free and fair elections. And Chavez, unlike Bush, actually works to improve the situation of the poorest citizens of Venezuela -- which is why they love him.

And none of this has ANYTHING to do with "communism" -- how pathetic to still be clinging to this phony bogeyman of the past! Most of us have figured out by now that the "Red Menace" was just a bunch of bullshit propaganda designed to enable the rise of the National Security State and fatten the coffers of the Military Industrial Complex. The biggest "threat" that communism ever represented was to predatory capitalism that sought unfettered access to exploitation of resources across the globe.

What a sad, misguided post...

sw

[Joe for Clark]

57. That is a great line -that

What do you mean "we", white man?

I do like it a lot.

Doesn't really mean much, I guess - except my wife is souix indian - and I do like that line - a lot.

It is great. Cause my kids are too!! I have a lot of sympathy, since many of my family got assisinated coming out the wrong end of the early 20th centruy.

And man - maybe everything you say is true. Then again - maybe not. Right??

You can consider this any way you want - I am telling you - dad really was dir of ops of an oil company - and he really was a better dem then me. And he knew war better than almost anyone.

So maybe, everything I said was based in reality - and maybe it better be dealt with.

Maybe, huh?? I believe in majority rule - so I will wait.

Joe

[rockymountaindem]

56. Once again, I don't get this Chavez stuff

I do not understand why, among the panoply of issues and individuals of import to the United States and the Democratic party today, so many people on this website and elsewhere not only rush to defend Chavez from any criticism, but do so as if someone had just insulted their own mom. The OP didn't even say anything bad about him, and yet here we all are tearing ourselves up about Chavez again. Why?

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

59. How do you feel about comparing Bush to Stalin, Hitler, Mussolini, etc.?

Is the ultimate comparative insult Chavez? I think Bush and the cabal pales in comparison to all other oppressive regimes. It's not just what they've done the this country, which you believe they give a damn about and I don't, it's also what they're openly planning to do...invade Iran, ramp up the detention centers, and reap the benefit of doing away with Habeas Corpus and Posse Comitus to utterly subjugate the will of "We, the people".

So, by comparison to just about any other leader(s), Bush looks as bad as he is. Maybe Chavez is bad, too, however he hasn't sent hundreds of thousands of his citizenry to be killed or maimed to protect his family's and buddies' bottom lines. Chavez did not ignore a natural disaster that killed well over a thousand Venezuelan citizens.

Your argument seems to say it's UnAmerican to unfavorably compare Bush to other leaders, because he's American and they're not.

I was reluctant to post, and kick your OP, however, the outrage you display at the audacity of comparing Bush to Chavez is a discordant note that bears reading by more DUers. MKJ

[Karenina]

61. I would encourage everyone

to leave this OP in peace. The writer clearly is neither firing on all cylinders nor will he be disabused of his brainwashing by any further comment.

[Richard Steele]

65. What's this "we" nonsense, Joe? You certainly don't speak for me -or- the world.

[Forkboy]

74. I think your opinion is just that

You're welcome to it,but don't presume to speak for me...ever.

[LaurenG]

75. Locking

Please do not post inflammatory messages for the purpose of creating agitation. This thread has become flame bait.

Ohioblues
DU mod