Ann Coulter, and transphobia

[insleeforprez]

Ann Coulter is a despicable human being. No one denies that. At the same time, it is *tremendously* hypocritical to criticize her for being homophobic, while at the same time utilizing latent transphobia ("tranny Annie" or "Mann Coulter" or "wow, look at that Adam's apple!") to deride her, and it MUST STOP. It is *no different* than casually saying "that's so gay" in a derogatory fashion.

I am a gay teen. I quite like my penis, I have no desire to be a woman. Frankly, I do not fully understand transsexuality. At the same time, however, I do not expect every straight man to fully understand my homosexuality; what I DO expect is basic respect. The transsexual community deserves the same, ESPECIALLY on a forum as liberal as DU.

As a gay teen, I hear things like "that's so gay" all the time, and it is extremely disheartening and disturbing. Calling this evil woman "Ann the Man" is no better. I kindly ask you to think twice before you say things like this. I mean, it's not like we can't find other ways to criticize her.

[JackBeck]

1. You will never hear that vile trash from me, my brother.

And welcome to DU.

:thumbsup:

[Bonobo]

2. Where in this perfect world of angels is there room for ANY humor at all?

[NMMNG]

7. I'm sorry you feel the need to find humor in harming and hurting others

I hope you can be cured of this affliction.

[Name removed]

22. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Carni]

84. Hate to be pissy BUT

You are lecturing about harming and hurting others and your screen name has "fundieslayer" in it...

Don't get me wrong...I personally don't care that you want to advertise that you find humor in slaying fundie Christians, but how can you cast stones about tongue in cheek humor from others (such as the ann the man jokes) when you have something in your screen name which condones killing fundies?


It's this kind of a double standard.

[Forkboy]

85. One of the many contradictions we're all guilty of in life sometimes.

Look at my sig pic.Yet I joke about wanting Cheney dead. :shrug:

We all have at least a little hypocrisy in us.Not everyone will admit it though.

But it's good to have someone point it out,to me or anyone else,when they see it.

[Carni]

89. I honestly don't think MOST people mean actual harm

With the Ann the man stuff-- I'm guilty of it mainly because it became a habit.

Now that I know people are really getting bent out of shape about it I will refrain from doing it...but I just want to get across my point that we are ALL at one time or another guilty of offending someone without necessarily meaning to.

I think Buffy's name is clever but someone who is born again might not find it so funny.

Quite frankly Ann Coulter must love all the controversy her appearance has created.

[Forkboy]

90. I don't think most mean any harm either.

But when it's pointed out to them that it does indeed harm someone people should consider if it's the only way to show their dislike of someone.

And I guarantee that Ann loves this.

on edit-Even if Ann does love it,she's provided the perfect opportunity for us to have this discussion.In that sense she's done us a favor.

[Carni]

92. I intend to stop the A/M references

Now that I know it offends some, but I am not perfect and I am sure that other insults along other lines will be attached to her by yours truly.

I do think that some things said in humor on DU provoke a total over-reaction and I mean in general, not just regarding this topic.

[NMMNG]

88. That is a joke--a parody

I don't condone killing anybody, including fundie scum, and I should think people get that without having it spelled out to them.

[JackBeck]

9. How is calling Coulter a tranny humorous?

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bluebear]

19. Whoever you're talking to....

...just another validation of who I have on my ignore list.

[Turn CO Blue]

28. Validation of mine, too.

[Bonobo]

30. Woo hoo! Rack em up! Ignore me! Ignore me! Woohoo!

I will fill your screens with "IGNORED".

BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

37. Yeah, perhaps I should start using mine more.

Although, I like being able to call people on their shit.

[Bonobo]

27. No,I don't think racst or gay jokes are ok.

And I don't think that calling her "Man Coulter" is making fun of trannies. Although clearly some of the humor aimed at her is.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

35. Then, you've just been informed that the "Man Coulter" shit is transphobic.

Now that you've been enlightened, you can remove them from your repertoire.

[Bonobo]

39. They weren't in my repertoire. I never said them

[opihimoimoi]

3. OK, so we call her a Media Whore then?? A Whack Job?

Sorry to whores and whackers....

[insleeforprez]

5. That's perfectly okay

Because it makes sense to criticize whores and whackers. It does NOT make sense to criticize transsexual people. And if you think it is, perhaps you're not as liberal as you might think.

[Blashyrkh]

24. Oh, it makes does it?

It makes sense to criticise whores? What makes whores so much more deserving of your criticism and abuse than transexuals? What makes transexuals more deserving of "basic respect" than whores? And what about whackers. Do you have a problem with people who whack off? And why are they less deserving of basic respect?

There's a saying about throwing stones and glass houses. Look it up.

[insleeforprez]

26. Well

I think it is generally fair to consider prostitution a negative action, and not something that could be encouraged. If you think that it makes sense to demean transsexuality, than by all means keep saying it; just know that you're not as tolerant as you think you are.

As for whackers... come on. That simply is not offensive because you're making fun of *yourself*.

[Chulanowa]

32. I love this mentality.

It's okay to bash THAT group, but not MY group.

Dude. Prostitutes are people same as you. You might not like 'em, but you obviously have no elbow room to use "whore" as an insult. Most of 'em didn't exactly wake up one day and go "I want to go be a slave to some guy named Rufus Maxmillian the Fourth who will beat the fuck out of me and sell my body, wheeee!"

Your kettle needs some scrubbing, perhaps. Or alternately, you could realize that the catcalls over Ann are no more "transphobic" than catcalls about Haggard are homophobic. It's simply mocking a gigantic goddamn hypocrite on the right.

But I guess if, as a gay teen, you want to defend a woman who calls you a faggot and would gladly see you and everyone who shares your sexual interests murdered, preferably along with your families, using the typical fascist handbook, simply because you think pointing out that she is probably EXACTLY what she rails against is more insulting than the stuff she says, well... I guess you're a better person than I would be in your situation. :)

[insleeforprez]

36. Yes

It makes sense to criticize some groups. Murderers for instance. It doesn't make sense, as a good liberal, to criticize certain other groups, like blacks, gays, and the transgendered.

And I am by no means defending Ann. Rather, I am defending transsexuals; it does transsexuals a HUGE disservice to be associated with Ann Coulter. (that's the simple version)

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

38. Guess what? Pretty much all of the jokes calling out Haggard's hypocrisy were...

homophobic jokes.

Shocker.

[Chulanowa]

43. Well, there's a wrong way and there's a right way

Throwing out obviously insulting and intentionaly lumping names is obviously the wrong way. I wouldn't think suggesting that Ann is actually a bloke in a dress is the wrong way, however.

If you want to think I hate trangenders because I think Ann Coulter has external gonads, well, you'll have to get in line behind the DU posters that believe my own external gonads automaticly make me a violent rapist who hates women. They're first to deliver the ass-beatings :)

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

45. Suggesting she's transgendered IS the WRONG way.

And you have NO real reason to believe that Ann Coulter is a man. None at all.

[Chulanowa]

62. What's the right way?

I don't use the idea as an insult. I figure that, we have a creature here on stage calling for the execution of what she terms "sexual deviants", who maintains women should basicly be slaves to me, etc... If she's actually a fella in a dress, I for one think that is a rather important part of her hypocritical bullshit.

But alright. So she has a deep, sharply angled jaw, narrow lips, robust cheekbones, a rectangular cranium, large ears, a larynx like a baseball bat, square shoulders, and flat, broad forearms. Her voice sounds practiced and uncomfortable, like she has to keep it in check, and speaks it from deeper in her throat than most women - because of the louisville slugger of a windpipe she's packing. All of these traits, in a single woman... nothing strange there. She's just one of the rare few ladies who managed to come out with 100% of her fathers' genetic code, minus the Y chromosome. Sure, I can buy that.

Frankly, I have less reason to suspect she's a mammal than I do to suspect she's man, woman, or transgendered. I could swear I've seen her lick her eyes to moisten them before.

[noamnety]

73. In other words:

Message to transgendered folks: Let me give you YET another reminder that most of the world considers you a "sexual deviant." In case you forgot, cause, you know, I'm sure you don't have enough reminders in your life. And please remember that the world will never accept you as you wish to be accepted. No matter what you are discussing, we will be focusing on your ability to conform to our preconceived notions of gender types.

Message to women: If you are one of the many many women who DO have an adam's apple, please remember that your femininity will ALWAYS be in question and the rest of the world is entitled to debate what sort of genitals you were born with. If you go into the public eye, this will be what people focus on. Maybe you should consider plastic surgery (chondrolaryngoplasty). The surgery is risky and can permanently damage the voice and vocal chords, but you should consider it anyway. Medicine can "correct" your noncompliance to gender standards.

----------------
Does that sum it up, or did I miss anything?

Here's the deal. I have a friend who has the trait for facial hair, even though she's a woman. She's tall, and muscular. She has a low voice and is sometimes mistaken for a man. She is pissed off that a doctor tried to "fix" that without even letting her know that's what he was up to. She is pissed off that she is perfectly healthy, and society considers her a deviant that needs a medical cure.

I am pissed off when I see this shit promoted here. I am sick of having the feminine ideal shoved down my throat in the same way men seem to get off on shoving all sorts of things down our throats til we gag. Give it up already. People are what they are. Why the hell is it your business? If you don't find her sexually attractive, don't have sex with her. How hard is that?

[Chulanowa]

95. Well, if you want to make a lot of supposition and go to a raving, stupid extreme...

But no, that doesn't sum it up. it actually doesn't even step anywhere near the point I'm making.

It has nothing to do with "the feminine ideal" - Nowhere am I suggesting that women need to fit a certain model. In your hurry to bite your knuckle and tug your forelock, perhaps this little note eluded you. It has to do with the fact Ann is chock full of masculine traits. Facial hair? That's nothing. Lots of women get it. A large larynx? IU have seen it on women before. All these individual "masculine" traits I have seen before. I just find it odd that they ALL happen to be present on a single woman, who, quite freaking honestly, acts like a man. Now I know you're about to pound your table about how "all women don't act alike" but I do have to say I know of extremely few who are as intensely confrontational, angry, and violent in their approach to a talk as Ann Coulter is. It's her personality too, you see. All this stuff together makes for what is, at least, a very strange woman.

As for the transgendered thing. I said I think Ann's a man in a dress. I don't think she's transgendered. I think she's some Aryan nation skinhead motherfucker who saw there was a niche present for a female right-wing hack, so he put on a dress and went for it. This is quite a damn different thing from being transgendered. At least to my understanding - I'm pretty sure that there's a lot more to being a transgendered person than a change of clothes.

[noamnety]

97. "acts like a man"

Meaning what?

Certainly personality traits are off limits for women? Wait, don't tell me ... real women are nonconfrontational, they are submissive, they know their place.

So I guess where we're at is if you have a strong personality, you need to look appropriately feminine. OR, if you at least look feminine, you can get away with not being quite as subservient before your status as a woman is under attack.

Lord help the woman who exceeds her quota of facial hair and larynx and anger. Once you pass that magic quota, everyone's entitled to decide your gender for you.

Damn. I am suddenly wishing I hadn't lost my combat boots in my last move.

*swigs a guinness*
*gets pissed*
*curses in a deep voice*
*wonders where the hell my penis is*

[noamnety]

42. I've dropped "whore" from my arsenal of insults, actually

The reason is that whores/prostitutes are the people being exploited, not the ones doing the exploiting. It's like feeling superior to slaves ... we should be looking down on the slave owners, not the people who are struggling to survive while having their rights taken away. Using "whore" to imply that women selling their bodies are doing it to exploit others disguises the nature of poverty and exploitation, and denial of women's human rights, and flips things around so the victim is the one being blamed.

That's not to say there aren't exceptions, women who are prostitutes that don't need to be, to survive, but systemically, no, that's not the case.

Women trafficked to the United States have been forced to have sex with 400-500 men to pay off $40,000 in debt for their passage. (Avita Ramdas, president of the Global Fund for Women sponsoring a recent prostitution conference, Brad Knickerbocker, "Prostitution’s Pernicious Reach Grows in the US" Christian Science Monitor, 23 October 1996)

In mid-1997 in Queens New York police were informed of more than 60 Mexican immigrants including 12 children ranging in age from 6 months to 6 years, being held in "involuntary servitude". (Deborah Sontag, "Deaf Mexicans Are Found in Forced Labor," New York Times, 20 June 1997)

The United Nations now lists Mexico as the number one center for the supply of young children to North America. Most are sold to rich, childless couples unwilling to wait for bona fide adoption agencies to provide them with a child. The majority are sent to international pedophile organizations. Many times the children are snatched while on errands for their parents. Often they are drugged and raped. Most of the children over 12 end up as prostitutes.

http://www.uri.edu/artsci/wms/hughes/usa.htm

"Prostitution is a negative action, not something to be encouraged" - I agree with that, just as slavery is a negative action, not something to be encouraged. But I don't use whore as an insult to mock someone, anymore than I would use "rape victim" as an insult to mock someone. And, in fact, in many cases, that's what prostitution actually is, rape. When you let someone have sex with you/at you not because you want to, but because you're doing it out of fear and survival instincts, that's rape.

And that's not what Ann Coulter is - she's doing the exploiting, and harming others. She's doing what she does out of hatred and greed, not because she's a victim fighting for survival.

[hunter]

96. This reflexive classification of prostitutes as victims isn't a good thing.

It's a stereotype too. "Whore" covers a pretty broad turf, you'll even see people here on DU describing themselves as such. I think this breadth is a good thing actually -- that isolating the words "whore" or "prostitute" to mean only women who are victims of a specific sort of sexual slavery builds a wall around these victims, further confining them. If there is no wall in our cognition, if our definition of "whore" or "prostitute" extends from someone who exchanges sex for dinner in a fancy restaurant to someone who is coerced by some pimp, then it is easier for us to see the victims of the most grievous crimes, and more difficult to put them in some faceless elsewhere, out of our thoughts.

Furthermore it's my own experience that the common usage of the word "whore" actually excludes coerced prostitution of the sort described in your link. Such crimes are almost always described now as sexual slavery.

When I was a handsome young man I used to escort elderly women to dinner. Even though there wasn't any sex, the relationship clearly had sexual overtones. These women wanted to dress up and go out with a handsome young man on their arms. I was paid in dinner and stories and lessons in flirting. It used to crack me up when I saw people looking at us obviously thinking are they....? I met a few elderly women who probably would have paid me for sex if I'd been dropping those sorts of hints. Maybe I could have made a lot of money!

So I could have been a whore if I'd been so inclined... that is if simply going out and flirting with elderly ladies didn't make me a whore already.

There are plenty of people who use sex to get what they want... drugs, attention, money... these wants of theirs may be part of some larger pattern of harmful behavior, but there is some volition to it that sets it apart from sexual slavery. When you get past the immediate prejudices and stereotypes, prostitution for a great number of people is really no different than any other potentially harmful pattern of behavior -- drugs, drinking, smoking, gambling, etc.

Immediately labeling prostitutes as victims does nothing at all to address the actual problems of prostitutes. You can wave your hands all you want about the evils of prostitution and call it "rape" but it gets you nowhere, and turns away a lot of the people you claim you want to help. The people you think you can save really don't want what you are dishing out, especially when it's tainted with your own fears and prejudices and indignations.

[Blashyrkh]

55. Prostitution shouldn't be encouraged...

But why should whores be more acceptable targets for abuse?

"If you think that it makes sense to demean transsexuality, than by all means keep saying it; just know that you're not as tolerant as you think you are."

I don't think it makes sense to demean transexuality. I don't think it makes sense to demeans hookers either, which is more than you can say.

"As for whackers... come on. That simply is not offensive because you're making fun of *yourself*."

Ahhhh the grand "I am one so I can say it" defense.

[tavalon]

65. I think the point being made

is where does one draw the line? It's pretty damn arbitrary the more one looks at it.

[noamnety]

72. Here's the line:

If you are attacking people based on their nonconformance to stereotyped gender or race roles and appearances, you are reinforcing harmful stereotypes. You are being a negative influence on society.

If you are using "humor" in a way that mocks people for being victims/for being exploited/for being oppressed, you are being a negative influence on society.

If you're using "humor" in a way that insults entire classes of people, particularly disadvantaged people ("white" trash, women who don't conform to what society says women are supposed to be (fuckable and feminine first and foremost), poor people, torture victims, rape victims, people of color, etc.), you are being a negative influence on society.

If it sounds like you're confusing being a bully with being funny, you're probably on the wrong side of the line.

[Blashyrkh]

98. Now, when you say "insults"...

...is that my intent or your intepretation?

That's your line, and regardless of what you think of me, not one that I subscribe to.

[tavalon]

64. Making fun of those who practice the oldest profession is okay?

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

16. Yeah pretty much.

Thank you for getting it.

[Tyler Durden]

4. I for one, am in complete agreement.

I will make absolutely certain that from now on, I will watch my mouth; even though I'm pretty certain that I have never behaved in that fashion before.

[ScreamingMeemie]

6. I promise you this.

You will never hear it from me, and I'll work so that someday we won't hear it ever again.

[Midlodemocrat]

8. I won't say it.

But I can't promise you won't hear it here, unfortunately.

Welcome to DU!

[NMMNG]

10. Bravo

:applause:

[blondie58]

11. you are absolutely right, insleeforprez

I have not made any comments personally, but that doesn't mean that I don't think of them.

Sometimes it takes someone to point it out, especially as eloquently and gently as you have.

It makes me shudder when someone says "that's so gay". But I also don't like how "that is so pimp" has turned into something positive. I am probably showing my age, but a pimp was a derogatory comment when I was growing up.

Thank you for pointing this out. We should all be a little more tolerant and respectful.

[Lost-in-FL]

12. K&R

:hi: And welcome!

[MedleyMisty]

13. I agree with you

And I also want to add misogyny.

I mean, I've seen posts (not here, but on another supposedly liberal forum) where people said they wanted to rape her. And they were always talking about her looks and always sexualizing her.

To be honest, I'm not too comfortable with the use of the word bitch in your post.

There are sexually neutral ways to insult people, I'm sure. I wouldn't have a problem with someone calling her a hateful nasty person.

[insleeforprez]

18. You are right

Sometimes being gay means you forget that women exist ;)

jk.

[eyesroll]

15. I like "Coultergeist," myself.

But you're absolutely right. :hi:

[Nikki Stone1]

34. I like that term too. It works on a number of levels.

And I agree with the OP here.

[Skittles]

17. I'm never comfortable with appearances being trashed

I don't care much for references to Rush Limbaugh's weight either - I guess to me there are so many things these vile, despicable human beings can be trashed for, it seems very low to go after appearances. I think you are correct about the references to Ann's so-called manliness - it does strike me as transphobia.

[GoneOffShore]

33. Sometimes it's easiest to go for the cheap shot

That's why little Orphan annie gets called on her appearence or Rushbo on his weight or O'Reilly on his complexion.

And haven't we all made cheap jokes about someone else?

Have you seen "The Aristocrats"? A vile joke that is seriously funny.

[Skittles]

40. I'll confess I've done it myself

for example, I cannot stand Bill Maher because he genuinely looks like a creep to me :o

[Forkboy]

87. God,the Aristocrats is one of the funniest things I've ever seen

Who would've thought Bob Saget could be funny? And George Alexander killed me."It was like the arm of a longshoreman!"

[Forkboy]

86. Looks are usually the first impression we get of someone

Hence the first thing we tend to joke about (we in the general sense,though I'm guilty of it occasionally).

It reminds of when Dennis Miller actually said some funny things.

"Why hate someone based on color when there's so many other,better reasons to hate them?"

I can think of million reason to trash Coulter.Her looks are the least of them.

:hi:

[Beelzebud]

20. I came to this realization months ago. Now I call her Annthrax Coultergeist. :D

[ScreamingMeemie]

21. ...

:yourock:

[Beelzebud]

25. It's good folks like you, that are patient with stubborn bastards like me, that helps change things.

:yourock: :pals:

[undergroundpanther]

51. OooOh I like it

Can I use it too?? :evilgrin:

[Jamastiene]

60. Now, that one, I like the best yet.

It's the perfect thing to call her.

[Bluebear]

23. Ann Coulter hasn't the sensitivity to be transgendered

Can people just stop and imagine how much introspection it takes to decide on such a drastic surgical decision? Do people really think that Coulter is someone who went through gender reassignment and came out the other end such a shallow, bigoted and hate-filled foghorn?

[undergroundpanther]

48. Agreed.

And I have gone the transition halfway.. This April the boobs get gone! Yahooo!!
And for me it has been a painful journey.A soul crushing and soul searching change that has to be done so I can live..

[ConsAreLiars]

56. Good for you and best wishes.

One of my kids has taken the same path, a bit further on than you. Now happily married to his pre-trans true love. When you encounter adversity, remember that a lot of us get it and are with you.

[undergroundpanther]

58. Thanks

I know when I encounter adversity it's an opportunity to shred someone with my claws if the situation warrants it. That's how I look at the adversity a vehicle for my own catharsis. Or a target for releasing some of that bottomless pit of wrath I carry inside.

[ConsAreLiars]

50. That is the absolute truth.

Nobody but a child of the elite, an utterly ignorant dittohead, an moral opportunist, or a severely depraved and hate-filled psychopath could make such comments.

[tavalon]

67. Absolutely

I'm not at all sure she's human but I'm pretty sure she's female (possibly XYY). She's a sad representative of my gender to be sure.

[msmcghee]

76. Your post raises some complex and interesting questions.

Is associating Ann Coulter and transsexuality in a joke demeaning to Ann Coulter, transsexuals - or both?

I'd say both. First, Ann Coulter is generally seen in DU as a vile and hated person.

By implying she's a transsexual the intent is certainly to add another "vile and hated" attribute, that the speaker assumes is understood by most DU'ers, to drive the point home.

People who's minds reflexively stereotype really hate to be called on it and will refuse until the end of time to admit that they do so. They are just, "Having some fun - telling a joke." When someone calls them on their stereotyping they respond as if they were personally attacked. They were - because stereotyping is a significant part of their identity that they can not just quit. It's who they are. They will defend their right to "be themselves" no matter what.

Added on edit: I think it's deeper than that. Stereotyping is a coping mechanism for those who are socially (and probably personally) insecure. Whenever possible, they unconsciously respond in discussions in ways that identify themselves with the "acceptable or normal" people - by making jokes about those who are not deemed "acceptable or normal" in society.

**********************

Reading the last part of your post, I must say I've run into some shallow, bigoted and hate-filled transsexuals. The same is true for some atheists and some liberals. I consider myself a member of all those categories. I would say that I know of no human categories that don't have some shallow, bigoted and hate-filled members - and I would not expect to find any. That goes for blacks, Native Americans, the poor and all those groups that we liberals love to defend. It's just as bigoted IMO to assume that all members of some group are virtuous as to assume they are all bad.

************************

Generally I'd say that any insult that incorporates some ethnic or cultural stereotype probably comes from a mind that in some areas at least - is shallow, bigoted and hate-filled.

They have a right to say what they wish and demean others because of the First Amendment. But I have a right to call them on it and make them uncomfortable publicly because I think that's the right response - and I get to use the First Amendment too.

**********************

Thanks for posing such an interesting question.

[noamnety]

29. I sent this email to Olbermann tonight

(There are a great many things I love about his show, but his attitude toward women frequently offends me.)

Subject: I don't like the homophobic/transphobic/misogynystic comments about Ann Coulter.

Text: Stan Goff (former special forces/delta force Master Sgt. and anti-war activist) puts the reasons into words better than I can:
---------------------------------------------------------------------
"Anyone who knows me or anything I've written knows that I am in no way a supporter of the execrable positions and pronouncements of Ann Coulter.

But I am remembering now, after seeing comments about who might "want to shack up with her," and references to her as a "hag," that some time back there was a spoof-post about her being involved in a creepy sexual scenario. It was gleefuly embraced and re-posted across the internet by librul males.

Let me be the skunk at this bash Coulter party, then, who points out how incredibly sexist and patriarchal librul males are, who attack this woman AS A WOMAN. I know this is a kind of male posturing that takes on special urgency among men who exist in a constant state of anxiety associated with conservative ridicule for girly-man empathy among librul men; it is a compensatory display of manly aggression directed at the appropriate target -- a (enemy) woman (one of THEIR -- possessive -- women) who needs to be put in her place -- that reassures these librul males that they subscribe to gendered power and masculinity-constructed-as-aggression every bit as much as those mean old red-meat Republicans.

Get over it, guys. When you attack Ann Coulter in gendered ways, you are attacking all women. You are -- in typical patriarchal fashion -- suggesting that women are to be valued as sexual objects first and foremost, that when they offend you in any realm, it is okay to attack their (patriachally constructed) femininity.

Gender as a system of oppressive power is so deeply entrenched, it is like the ground we walk on, taken for granted, where we set our feet when we are ready for a fight. We are reinforcing the oppression of women and the system of compulsory heterosexuality that it is built upon every time we portray our male enemies as "sissies" and our female enemys as "hags" and "whores."

You might be librul, but in your immense sexual insecurity (about a self-destructive role embodied in the notion of masculinity) and failure to take a critical look at your own language, you are no friend of women... as a class."
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http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alex-koppelman/ann-coulter-finds-and-li_b_21236.html?p=2#comments

I hate Ann Coulter. She's an ass, no two ways about it. But also, I hate hearing women be attacked based on their looks, based on not being "feminine" enough, based on not being sexually attractive enough, and I don't even know what "enough" is. All I know is that it's yet another message in the endless stream of messages that women are bombarded with in the media, that we aren't "good" enough, if men don't want to sleep with us.

What I'm suggesting is that you are contributing to a culture where women are viewed as second class citizens reduced to their value as sex objects, when you insult her based on her gender.

You know how Ann's "faggot" comment didn't just insult Edwards, but rather insulted an entire community, even though it was directed at a specific person? Don't do the same thing.

Sincerely,

(lwfern)

[HardRocker05]

52. good; seems that some liberal men think it's 'edgy' or something to further gender

stereotypes, and glorify the virtues of everything 'manly.' they do it in a million tiny ways every day, and whenever i hear something like KO's trashing of coulter as 'mannish' or some man as being less than a 'real man' or 'emasculated' in some way, i just think, wow, i can feel the love. you get the feeling that they think that women should stay in 'their place,' and that place is a very weak, subordinate, inferior place.

[msmcghee]

79. Very well said. n/t

[Turn CO Blue]

31. Just said the same thing to DH the other night...

Every word that comes out of her mouth is vile and hate-filled, so must we lower the discourse too with vile and hate-filled slurs? And it's not even funny. Her gender is irrelevant. What is relevant is that she is granted a venue to spew her vitriol. Shaming the ones who give her airtime should be where we use our energy.

I did used to think it was funny to say "give that woman a cheeseburger" when I saw her on TV. Not anymore. She obviously has issues with food and control, but even that is her own personal business and I can't judge her for it.

Now I think, "give that woman a soul". And that's just sad.

Her advertisers are pulling off her site and some newspapers have dumped her column. She is sinking her own ship with her wretchedness.

[kdpeters]

41. If THEY were saying the same things about one of US, it would be plain for all to see

I'm noticing more and more how hypocritical we can sometimes be. Everyone on both sides has all the details down why OURS is different while THEIRS is offensive and inexcusable.

Nobody really seems to want to stop it altogether. We all just want to stop THEM!

You are so right my friend. The transphobia levelled at Ann Coulter is all part of the same. We'd have no stomach, no quarter, and absolutely not one shred of tolerance for it were it happening the other way around.

All you folks defending this crap, face it; you're just a bunch of hypocrites. THEY have never claimed to value tolerance or diversity. We expect better from US.

[Duncan Grant]

44. What a great post!

I couldn't have said it better myself. You made my day, insleeforprez. Welcome to DU! :applause:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=925422&mesg_id=925422

[HardRocker05]

46. hear, hear. it gets so tiring and it's a little disappointing that quite a few people here think

that it is perfectly okay to criticise people for not conforming to their socially assigned gender role. and frankly, i don't even see what everybody is talking about wrt ann coulter; she doesn't look 'manly' to me, but in any case, who cares? shouldn't a person have a right to be an individual, and not be forced to conform like a mindless lemming to a gender role? and the reality is that people are born on a continuum of physical "manliness" to "womanliness;" should a person be ridiculed for perfectly natural and harmless physical characteristics? i think that the saddest thing is just how infantile it is that people continue to be amused by the simple concept that someone doesn't conform to a gender role. personally, i don't see anything really funny or dispicable about it.

[undergroundpanther]

47. Being FtM

And hearing that ugly inferior trash ann coulter called "ann the man" is just sick, I am in process of becoming a guy my middle fucking name is ann. So when you compare transmen like me to that subhuman shit coulter think about what you are saying Choose your barbs carefully and throw them at the intended target for if you are unskilled at directing insults at whom deserves it(coulter) you will hurt others you may not intend to.

Please stop the trans-phobic comments here. Ann Coulter is a morally inferior bully.She is no Transman. She hasn't the heart, the courage or the balls to become a real transman..
Thank you Insleeforprez..For your kindness.And courage.and balls.

[HardRocker05]

54. balls = courage? or were you saying that she literally has no balls? i know, it's just a figure

'figure of speech,' but think about it, would you ever say 'she's not white enough' to do x, y, or z? i'm sorry, call me over-sensitive, but i just really resent the suggestion that having balls is necessary for having courage. if 'balls' really equaled courage, there wouldn't be such a shortage of courage in this country.

[undergroundpanther]

57. Agreed

I used the balls because I was making a bad pun. Being FTM I used balls because I thought it might be a more creative way to say courage. I meant no insult to anyone..Ovaries in my mind are equivalent to balls ,just internal. Would guts be better than balls or ovaries? How about Ova-testes?
Regardless of what body part you point at, We all got guts.We all got heart..
Excepting.. Annthrax Coultergiest! She has no heart, no guts, no courage, no morals, or ova-testes for that matter, she's a coultergiest!.

[tavalon]

68. You are actually correct

In early development, it is impossible to distinguish a girl from a boy and when the androgynous parts go to their assigned places the ovaries and the testicles do, in fact, turn out to have come from the same place.

[HardRocker05]

93. that's better. :-) nt

[Colobo]

49. Coulterphobic, that's what I am

[undergroundpanther]

53. Conservophobic

I loathe conservatism it makes me sick. Rightwingerphobic, I hate the right wing and I think for the good of our nation it must be amputated for it has been infested with gangrenous gaseous festering tumors.

[Oeditpus Rex]

59. Even if it weren't offensive

it still wouldn't be funny because it's just too fucking easy.

Leave the sophomoric, tee-hee "humor" to the AOL and Yahoo board rats.

[tavalon]

69. Now, that's one I can stand behind

especially with this community. We are generally very intelligent and articulate and we can ridicule these jerks with far more creative monikers. That is sophmoric and frankly beneath us.

[LostinVA]

61. Very, very nice post

And, I hate that you have to read some of the vile stuff written on these boards. It's bad enough when you're a cynical adult.

Great post.

Welcome to DU!

[tavalon]

63. Exactly!

Well spoken.

[terrya]

66. Agree 100%. Thank you and bravo. K&R

[NorthernSpy]

70. the primary targets of the "mAnn Coulter" meme are actually conservative men...

Conservative men enthusiastically declare that Coulter is hot. We reply by pointing out Coulter's adam's apple and other evidence of physical masculinity. Our targets are then forced to put two and two together; they recognize the homoerotic character of their attraction to Coulter. This epiphany clashes with their dislike of homosexuality, producing cognitive dissonance and embarrassment. We laugh at their chagrin.


It's always interesting to watch someone catching a glimpse of his own ideology from a new and previously overlooked angle.

[noamnety]

74. Like hell that's the primary target

If you were a woman with a low voice and an Adam's Apple, you'd understand who's actually hurt by this crap. It ain't the conservative men who are struggling with a lifetime of ego-battering, and messages from the time they are small that they aren't up to standard.

This is a matter of men (and sometimes women) policing our society to make sure women stay in their place, as women.

[treestar]

80. Exactly. No one who does this on DU intends to insult any person

- the idea is to make fun of the RW whack jobs who are caught in a contradiction.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

83. How do you know what somebody else's intentions are?

[rman]

71. Coulter rallies for a homophobic/trasphobic political party.

It's sort of like Hoover being gay and enacting anti-gay policies.

The issue is Coulter's hypocrisy, not her being trans-sexual (or whatever the proper term is).
Pointing out that she is a trans-sexual is not the same thing as transphobia. It would not be an issue if she wasn't being so hypocritical about it.

[LynneSin]

75. I confess I use to do that a few years ago but other DUer gave me a lashing

and rightly so.

I encourage all DUers to please stop the transphobia in relations to Ann Coulter. She is a horrible person and it's disgusting that anyone would relate her horribleness to transexualality. It's just wrong on all levels.

I now refer to Ann Coulter as Annthrax

[myrna minx]

77. Wonderful post. n/t

:hug:

[treestar]

78. It is not aimed at anyone but Ann Coulter

When the person is a right wing social conservative, one is referring to their hypocrisy - Ann must go out of her way to appear feminine in order to be consistent with what she says. She should be soft and gentle and nurturing. Not because we are judging her by our standards, which say she can be whatever she wants, but because we are judging her by her standards.

What the humor points out is that - her inconsistency - there is no attempt to demean transsexuals. Ann tries to do that - but that's the very point. When she herself lacks that understanding, giving her a hard time about it is fair.

It is similar to how it is not inconsistent to say Bill Clinton's private life should be private, but pointing out that if a repuke is involved in extramarital sex, it should be pointed out. A liberal, or Bill Clinton, never claims the rest of the world has to live up to a certain standard - those who do claim that of others should keep to it themselves.

[noamnety]

81. I don't understand the willful ignorance

If a bunch of people are telling you "this is hurtful, to me personally" - why aren't you hearing that?

[Maven]

91. And Coulter's remark wasn't "aimed" at anyone but John Edwards.

:eyes:

[Pathwalker]

82. Is it okay to call her a "Republican Spkesperson"?

After all, doing so is an insult to every republican. I must admit I am VERY reluctant to stop calling Ann a "Republican Spokesperson, because I do take a guilty pleasure in watching republicans stumble all over themselves trying to protest that she doesn't not speak for them, only to point at her books on their bookshelves or coffee tables, and remind them that yes, she obviously does speak for them. They squirm most uncomfortably, and it is very effective in reminding them that when they remain silent, or purchase her books - she speaks for them. Loudly. Rudely. Offensively.
Best of all - it WORKS to make them uncomfortable.
Must I stop?

[huskerlaw]

94. You know, you're right.

I can't say that I've given this issue much thought before reading this thread. And I admit that I brushed off the "Mann Coulter" jokes as a slam on Ann herself.

But you're absolutely correct. Accusing someone of being transgendered, and using that as a joke is offensive. It's *not* just a slam on the person. In fact, by saying that it's a slam at all implies that there's something wrong with being transgendered. There is not, and it's offensive to suggest otherwise.

I can't say that I've ever actually used any of these slurs myself, but I have overlooked it when others used them. I will no longer do so. Thank you for pointing out something that, admittedly, should have been extremely obvious.