"People who get into debt are really stupid. They should just be more frugal and save."

[mrreowwr_kittty]

Okay, first off, I'm not talking about the people who are in debt due to medical bills or student loans. Let's focus on people who just spent too much buying stuff they didn't need. People who didn't understand how credit works and how that interest compounds and gets jacked up if you make a late payment. People like me, until a few years ago. This post isn't mean to call any particular DUer out. It's a response to a running theme in some threads concerning consumer spending and debt.

Look, a lot of people live beyond their means. Yes, a lot of people buy crap they don't need to keep up with the Jones or self-medicate or whatever. But as someone who has an understanding about marketing, I can tell you that literally billions of dollars are spent by corporations to brainwash people. I do mean brainwash. They employ psychologists to find new and better ways to manipulate consumers' self-conscious minds. To get them to identify by the products they own and to have a constant feeling of emptiness and anxiety. To get them addicted to credit. Let's not even start on how marketers target young children. It's pretty appalling, really. The methods haven't really changed significantly since The Hidden Persuaders was written in the 50s, they've just been updated and continually perfected.

Go to a sales seminar sometime and see the kind of behavior modification tactics salespeople (often under incredible pressure to keep their numbers us) are taught to use on customers. A lot of effort goes into crafting powerful sales pitches. Watch how salespeople learn to use the perfect tone, inflection, trigger phrases, and even neuro-linguistic programming. Again, nothing is left to chance. This stuff is created by people who know way more about the human mind than the average person does. The goal is to wear you down and get you to sign the dotted line. Oh, and do you want the 2 or 3 year extended warranty with your life-changing Acme Gizmo today?


A lot of people on DU are savvy media consumers and critical thinkers. I am now, but didn't used to be. I understand how people get in over their heads with "stuff". I recall being in my 20s and early 30s walking through the mall like a zombie, my arms laden with bags full of the latest brand names or snazzy gizmos. I was far from alone in that mall. Sometimes I'd get to my car feeling like I'd had an out-of-body experience. Once I learned how this marketing stuff worked I realized that perception was not far off. Getting my degree in marketing in my mid-30s turned out to be the smartest thing I ever did, on a personal level. It's easier to resist something being done to you when you can identify what it is and expect it. Still, you may "know" on a theoretical level that it's going on, but that doesn't mean it can't get to your subconscious.

My point is not to suggest that people aren't ultimately responsible for their decisions and their finances, nor is it to suggest that Americans don't need to learn to value the things money can't buy. I'm just pointing out that you cannot have a society that bombards everyone with "BUY BUY BUY" messages at every turn and not have people succumb to them, especially if they have unmet emotional needs and don't know any other response to them. If you are impervious to the messages, kudos to you. If you've been that way since you were a very young person and have the whistle clean credit record, huge savings account, and healthy investment portfolio to show for it, double kudos. I mean that, really. I envy you. But some of us had to learn the hard way, and others are still learning, and unless your name is Dick Cheney or Warren Buffett, we're all in this shitty mess of an economy together. BTW, consumer spending is 70% of our GDP.

[Lex]

1. Who is quoted in your subject line?

nt

[mrreowwr_kittty]

2. No one in particular. Just paraphrasing a general theme.

I'm really not calling out DUers here. This is a sentiment I see here and out IRL all the time. Ironically, it's often by people who spend a lot of money themselves. Cognitive dissonance, I guess. :shrug:

[robinlynne]

50. I was going to place my bet on Barbara Bush.

[CTyankee]

3. My parents were depression kids so I had a very different message growingup.

I know. I'm old. But I have a very different perspective on this whole thing.

This meltdown of the economy is not going to be as difficult for me as for those who just grew up with the "spend, spend, spend" mythology. Thank god I learned from my parents how to actually CREATE a budget and use it as a guide to spending.

I'm not trying to be supercilious, but all along I doubted the spending thing, and I have been provenright. It gives me little comfort, however, because mykids got somewhat taken in my it (altho not completely since I gave then a bit of hard economics when I was a single mom after my divorce fromtheir dad).

[mrreowwr_kittty]

5. Oddly, my parents grew up in the Depression too.

My dad never bought a single thing on credit. We pinched pennies, clipped coupons, and bought the store brand, even if we didn't have to. Although I certainly "rebelled" in my early adulthood, that frugal foundation must have stuck on some level because that's how I live now. :)

[CTyankee]

8. Yep. Same deal with me! n/t

[skooooo]

9. It's hard to get away from, isn't it??

Cause you saw your mom wince everytime you were being careless with your belongings, losing something, or being rough with your toys. That's the way it was with me anyway.

[SoCalDem]

4. Notice how many new commecials are bathed in pale blue or green

The "brains" know how agitated we all are, so we are being "treated" to soothing colors:)

[LuckyLib]

114. The amped up music in EVERY business, including grocery stores, is meant to make boomers feel "cool"

and loosen the old purse strings. Yep, just what I need when looking buying vegetables or looking at clothing -- ear-splitting Cowsills music interspersed with indy rock. I've left many a business with the comment to the clerk, "I don't know how you stand the music in here all day long!" (I'll go home an listen to my own rock and roll, thanks!)

[skooooo]

6. I agree, and they target the young so much now...

If parents aren't there (present and interacting with their kids) to teach them differently, it's hard for them to learn.

Sometimes I wonder if so many problems we identify don't go back to the fact that it takes 2+ people to make a household function anymore.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

14. And if the parents are just as brainwashed, the drive to mindlessly consume is reinforced

Then there's the cascading effect of having 2 parents working 60 hours a week to pay for all the stuff, leaving the children to be babysat by the TV or the computer. Advertising galore. :(

[skooooo]

16. yup..

The kids don't stand a chance, really. Parents just trying to get enough food on the table, who's got time or energy to teach critical thinking?

[uppityperson]

7. I'd say "people who buy too much stuff they don't need are really stupid by going into debt"

The Almighty Dollar is definitely worshipped by many people, buy buy buy indeed.

[Donnachaidh]

10. Banks are ALREADY sending my high school kid credit card applications!

They started coming in when he was -14-! We just received the 3RD Discover card offer! WTF?

He has a tough time, being raised by parents who are trying to teach him the REAL value of the dollar. He's surrounded by *BUY-BOTS* at school and in his free time. Of course, quite a few of those kids have parents who are now losing their jobs, and are worried about losing their houses.

But they wouldn't DREAM of reining in their little superconsumers and the daily trips to the Mall of Georgia. :puke: I guess the kids will learn when they are forced out of their gated community into a GASP apartment in a different part of town. :shrug:

[mrreowwr_kittty]

12. Your son is lucky to have you for a mom.

He may or may not go through a spendthrift stage like I did later in life, but you're teaching him good values now.

[Donnachaidh]

22. I don't think many of these kids will survive when out on their own

I want him to be able to have a life that allows him to OWN a home, have a decent education, and perhaps even travel the world if he wants.

I also want him to realize that NO ONE *owes* him anything. That's the worst thing I've seen with the kids growing up now. They feel they are OWED a certain lifestyle (fueled by advertising and peer pressure) and that if they just skim along as C students they will have everything their parents have. What they don't realize - the parents DON'T *own* the homes they live in, they hold heavy mortgages on everything they have. And they are *debt-slaves*, the modern version of indentured servitude.

I still believe if people are REALISTIC they can have the American Dream. It may not be the house featured on HGTv, but it will be theirs.

[Speck Tater]

13. My grandson started getting credit card promos when he was 12!

They obviously have no idea who they are sending these "pre-qualified" mailings to. They are just dumping them in every mailbox they can, fishing for more suckers.

[uppityperson]

18. My child told me to tear up any that come, not to forward on.

Good kid. Loves second hand stores and bicycling.

[Raksha]

112. Fourteen? Good grief, my daughter didn't get her first credit card

until she was a freshman in college! They sent them to all the freshmen in 1996, pretty much automatically. Yeah, she got in over her head and it took her years to pay if off, but eventually she learned better. Her student loans are another story, though.

[cags]

11. Its true... I work in retail sales and the pressure to get credit applications is criminal

My manager who is #1 in credit has been threatened with not getting any weekends off if her employees don't get 1 credit app per every 100 hrs her employees work.

I'm always pressured to get more credit, cause I have a moral issue with opening unnecessary credit for old people(If your 65 and you don't have a retail card good for you!) and young people(They don't need to start out like that). Believe me I can pressure people to open them, but I usually don't until they started threatening my manager... she is a good one.

I've seen customers lied to, scammed into opening duplicate accounts, and purposefully misled just to get that account open.

Its disgusting

[mrreowwr_kittty]

19. It is. My career involves a certain amount of selling too.

I found that I just couldn't hack it working in an environment where I had production requirements. So now I work on my own. I only sell to people who need what I do and can afford it. I've drastically cut my living expenses to the point where I no longer feel the pressure to sell to anyone who has a pulse. I worked in retail years ago, before there were many stores that had their own lines of credit. The expectation to "upsell" was intense as it was. I can only imagine the added pressure with having to get people to sign up for credit cards.

[Edweird]

15. It seems many people here are DYING to impress you with how SUPERIOR they are...

Lost your job? "Well I'M a teacher, and I'll NEVER lose MY job. You CHOSE to lose your job...."
Losing your house? "Well MY house is paid off. You should have done that."

It seems elitism and self righteousness come with the territory.

[uppityperson]

20. Read the whole post, not just the subject line.

The subject line can some across as that, but read the whole post. If you haven't. It is about marketing, about the "buy more!" mentality, not about superiority.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

23. I think he read it. nt

[uppityperson]

24. Aha, I'm getting defensive unneccessarily. Sorry.

I am tired, my apologies, thought was sniping at you, not in general.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

21. It's human nature I suppose. But it's disappointing to see on a progressive site. nt

[Edweird]

29. Months ago there was a vocal clique doing "the happy dance" over the housing crisis.

They were happily crowing about how every that was losing their home deserved it because they were either a speculator or a minimum wage earner in a McMansion. I offered my situation as a rebuttal. My (now ex)wife and I bought a house that we could easily afford but we got crushed by the economy. When there's no work, you can't pay your bills. I'm absolutely certain the we are not the only ones.
Instead of admitting that just maybe not EVERY homeowner in trouble was a "flipper" caught in the lurch, I got lectured about how my life wasn't "perfect" enough. A crap load of "woulda coulda shoulda's". Which nearly gave me an aneurysm because these people had absolutely no concept of my life up to this point. So yeah, big tent and all that, nonetheless there's a definite "holier than thou" element that makes me :mad: enough to :puke: . It is (to me anyway) the exact same mentality (probably some of the same people, too) as those that automatically assign blame for being in debt. When there's no work, you can't pay your bills.

[uppityperson]

43. There are some assholes on every forum.

Being anonymous makes some people think it is ok to be that way. That is my theory when I am in a good mood at least.

[Xenotime]

31. True. I have seen a lot of that here lately.

It's almost like they feel proud that others are suffering.

[undergroundpanther]

47. What is it? schaudenfraud ??

Me thinks so.
I wrote this a while ago
Fiscal Responsibility a rant..

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1877294
About this topic.. My how times change,and how they stay the same.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

57. You said it so much better than I ever could. I thank you. nt

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

17. Being in debt is a hard, but effective, way to learn frugality.

I got my share of bruises and lumps buying (literally) into all that marketing crappola. "Buy now, pay later", "50% off!", "Last Chance", "10 Easy Payments", "No down!", "Low Interest", or my favorite, "SAVE MONEY!!".

Fortunately, we never got deeply in debt before coming to our senses.

Now, and it has been so for a long time, it's, "Pay cash". And, "If you ain't got the dough to buy it, save, or do without."

It's amazing how many things you suddenly don't "have to have" when you pay cash or have to save.

[WoodyM]

25. As one who grew up in the Great Depression,

if I wanted something I had to work, scrimp, do without other things, and save the money to buy it. Then if by the time I had enough to buy it I did. However, I often decided by the time I got the money it was not worth it.

I cannot comprehend going “shopping.” That is actually going to look for something to spend your money on.

[skooooo]

32. It's fun to have a little money for "fun,"

but generally I agree with you. I'll be completely out of debt soon, and from now on will save up first for anything I buy.

[Wcross]

26. The borrower is slave to the lender.

It is as simple as that. Think long & hard before you borrow money. Never borrow money unless it is for a home, never borrow for that home for more than 15 years & NO MORE than 25% of your take home pay. If you are charging gasoline & meals without paying off your balance every month you are an idiot. It is REAL MONEY. You will eventually have to pay it off.

I am sorry to be so brutal about finances. I am sure there are a million excuses for personal debt, most of them stink. (life saving medical debt excluded)

[mrreowwr_kittty]

68. Once again, consumer spending is 70% of our GDP.

All those people borrowing money and running up these past few years are what's been propping up our groaning economy, and the rest of the world's. They are what's propping up your economy, despite your insistence that you are some autonomous island apart from everyone. There is no job security in this country and little in the way of a safety net. We can't win. I can't win and you can't win. If we buy stuff, we go into debt, and are told that we are "making excuses". If we don't buy stuff, we are failing in our patriotic duty to keep the economy going. Don't you get it?

[Wcross]

74. I believe I get it better than most.

You see, OTHER PEOPLE are borrowing to buy stuff. I have been saving & staying out of debt. I am PREPARED to lose my job & still survive. I have no mortgage payments, car payments or any other payments. I have a years supply of food stored & the ability/land to grow more.

I don't feel it is my "patriotic duty" to be a debt slave. Fortunately there are plenty of people who don't have a problem with it.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

78. I bow before your superiority.

That's what you wanted, right? :eyes:

[Wcross]

79. No, but don't tell me that "I don't get it".

I know how the economy works. I decided not to participate. I really don't "want" anything.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

80. Not participating in the economy is a virtual impossibility. nt

[Indenturedebtor]

81. The assumption around here is that things are the same as they were 30 years ago

The only thing that's changed according to many of the older folks here on DU is that these stupid younguns are irresponsible.

HELLO! Haven't any of you read any one of the thousands of articles that document how neccessary items like housing, transportation, utilities, and medical care have gone up exponentially while wages have stagnated since the 70's?

We have it harder than you did when you were just starting out. Cheap plastic goods and TV's have gotten cheaper but my debt comes from paying for things like food and razor blades. And I make a "middle class" income. Which happens to be the exact same income as an average earner in 1973! How am I supposed to subsist off of that when a house could be had in 1972 for about 20,000 dollars? That same house costs 150-500,000 dollars (depending on location) today! A car was about 2,000 dollars in 1972... today it's 15-20k!!!

Oh but I should just go live in a shack down by the river. And in my spare time (even though we now work 10 hours more a week on average than you did in 72) I can plant vegetables and sew my own clothes :eyes:

I have two computers (one of which I built myself), 1 TV, 2 cars (wife has to get to work too), have only bought clothes for WORK in the last 5 years, and I never go out and in the last 3 years have only taken 1 short trip a year. Yet I'm indebted to the gills.

But I have a lot to look forward to! I have been at my job for 4 months, and in another year and two months I'll be eligible for 1 week of vacation. that is of course assuming that I don't get downsized.

Save? Save what? All of my money goes to pay for a place to sleep and a car to use for work. A car that I have put 12k miles on in 2.5 years because I can't afford to go anywhere but to the grocery store and to work. And who has the time anyways?

[mrreowwr_kittty]

85. The "never spend more than 25% on housing" was a dead giveaway with wcross

That was practical advice 30 years ago when you could afford rent or a mortgage on a quarter of your take home. Nowadays, unless you're a single person who can do the roommate thing, you might as well forget it. And now we can factor in such joyful developments as $4 a gallon gas and food prices going through the roof.

Meanwhile, the marketers continue their mindfucking of the populace.

[stillcool]

27. I don't know if other..

societies are as judgmental as we are. Image is everything. The house, the yard, the car, the clothes are how we measure worth, and need to be maintained at any cost.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

64. Some people I know feel like they have to re-do their homes every 2 years

This requires taking a massive amount out of their home equity to accomplish. It's kind of bizarre but they honestly believe that if their furnishings and fixtures are "out of date" they won't be able to have people over. Funny how that coincided with the explosion of Lowes and Home Depots and home improvement shows. When I was growing up it seemed like people had the same decor for decades and it wasn't a problem.

[Clark2008]

28. I guess no one here has ever lost a job or had to buy

food on a meager wage.

Look, many Americans aren't in debt because they want to buy, buy, buy. Their in debt because they want to eat, have a roof over their heads and need reliable transportation to and from work whilst also needing to buy kids clothes and pay off minor medical debt.

I'm sorry - but when wages are stagnant (my husband's has gone DOWN since we made the decision to purchase a home we now can't sell) and there is inflation, a certain amount of debt isn't "dumb" or "stupid," it's a necessity.

(BTW, most of my debt is spent on medical bills that either weren't covered by insurance or were incurred when my husband was out of work and we didn't have medical/dental).

Still... we've had to use cards to SURVIVE while the hubby was looking for work (he started a new job Monday. We're carpooling when we can and eating lots of leftovers, but, hey, guess what? We're still in debt!!)

[Wcross]

30. That is precisely why I made it job #1 to get out of debt.

I was one step from the curb at one point in my life. Many nights I went to bed without having ate all day. When I got back on my feet I vowed "never again". I am now debt free & own my own home. I wouldn't have it any other way.

[skooooo]

33. I think a lot of the criticism is aimed the house flippers..

...who were speculating to make money, not regular folks who caught stuck at the wrong time.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

40. I know that.

Whatever the reason people are in debt, it's a miserable and frightening experience. The point of my post was to explain that even people who squander their money on consumer crap don't necessarily deserve to be scorned. Powerful and pervasive marketing exists to get them to do it.

[conscious evolution]

34. K & R

Very good post.
You should do a series on the marketing techniques being used to manipulate people.
Maybe it could help people wake up.

[MedleyMisty]

35. I hope I've never come off that way

but I probably have - I've been impervious since I was young, but also having been born working class I certainly don't have a huge savings account or investment portfolio. We are closing on a house at the end of the month, though. :) And yes, it's a 15 year fixed rate mortgage.

If it helps at all to understand the people who may come off as judgemental - like I said, I've been rather hard to brainwash since I was a kid. LOL - I remember watching some stupid lowest common denominator movie in daycare and thinking, "God, they chose this music to make me feel a certain emotion - fuck that, I'm going to sit here and sneer at the stupidity instead." Well - in the language that an early elementary school student with a decent vocabulary (but back then I think I would titter with embarrassment over the word "poont", the Surry County version of "fart", so yeah - doubt I thought the word fuck, lol) would use. But I do clearly remember thinking that.

And, like most humans, I assumed that everyone else thought the way I thought. I thought that everyone had free minds and were capable of critical thought and that they freely and independently made their choices and decisions.

Like my father taught me how to play chess when I was two. I didn't remember learning. When the other kids at daycare wanted to play, they didn't know the rules. And I could not comprehend that and got really really upset and my face burned and I started crying.

And for the next twenty years I would feel the same way and get really really upset and cry "Why don't you people know the rules?!" I thought that people who were for the war on terror liked and enjoyed the thought of killing people and causing lots of death and destruction. I thought that people who drive huge gas guzzling luxury SUVs on paved streets in a city where it hardly ever snows wanted life to suck for most of the life on the planet, including themselves. I thought that people who voted Republican got off on suffering of all sorts. Hell, I even thought people who drove recklessly wanted to kill themselves or other people or both and that people who would cross a heavily traveled road in the middle of traffic instead of walking just a few feet to a crosswalk wanted to die. And of course - that people who believe in misinformation know the truth really and purposefully choose the propaganda and deny the reality.

LOL - my social anxiety makes sense now. And lots of my social problems - I guess people who are brainwashed into voting Republican but are really good at heart don't like it when I say they're evil.

Anyway, I am just now realizing that not everyone's mind is free. Not even mine - I'm sure I own some stuff that was made with the minerals that come out of the Congo mines, for instance.

So, those of us who may appear to be looking down on others for their human frailty are really just displaying human frailty ourselves. And I am working on mine, and your post certainly helped me towards that goal. Thank you so much.

Proud to be the fifth rec. :)

[mrreowwr_kittty]

39. Thank you.

I relate a lot to you. In some areas, I've demonstrated remarkable resistance to manipulation. From my earliest age I rejected things like organized religion and traditional gender roles. Never bought into the "team player" mentality at work. And OMG, I have social anxiety out the wazoo! I now believe that shopping was something I used to avoid experiencing life. I chose the cheap facade of "stuff" to put up a barrier between me and the rest of the world. I've also used food and alcohol and compulsive exercise at various times. And of course, being judgmental is another coping mechanism I use to deal with a crazy mixed up world.

As for Republicans, most of them aren't evil. ;)

[Breeze54]

44. You are screwed up! -- Most repubs ARE evil !!!!

Get with it!! :crazy:

[renate]

96. one thing in your post really hit home for me

You wrote "I thought that people who were for the war on terror liked and enjoyed the thought of killing people and causing lots of death and destruction. I thought that people who drive huge gas guzzling luxury SUVs on paved streets in a city where it hardly ever snows wanted life to suck for most of the life on the planet, including themselves. I thought that people who voted Republican got off on suffering of all sorts."

So did I... and even as I grew older and wiser, in a way I thought that until this very minute; I put my energies towards trying to forgive them, rather than trying to understand that everybody's always doing their best with what they've got. And if they've got information from only the MSM, they'll believe they're doing the right thing by thinking that Iraq had something to do with terrorism; if they have poor self-esteem and a poor self-image, they'll try to replace what's missing with stuff, and so on. Like you until you realized differently, I've kind of assumed, in the back of my mind, that people somehow choose to be uninformed, or to be mindlessly consuming, etc.

Thanks for writing, so clearly, about how blind we can be when we assume that everybody "knows the rules" about how to think.

[Breeze54]

36. I must be really stupid for having kids and my ex not paying child support!

:eyes:

And the judges did NOT enforce the court order!

Boy, am I dumb. :sarcasm:

:wow:

[papapi]

37. Beware, credit card companies are run by bloodsucking vampires and leeches.

[cascadiance]

38. The problem is that the "borrowers" have kept the economy going the last few years...

With our economic infrastructure/system the way it is now, without the excess spending that many that borrow too much did, then the country would have had a lot less GNP and an even more sluggish economy, and more of us would have lost our jobs earlier.

The bottom line is that though those of us who've been brainwashed into spending too much are partially to blame for being in deep doodoo, had we not been spending that money, our economy would still be one sick puppy!

The REAL culprits is the system where the corporate elite set are getting richer and richer and the rest of us are getting poorer and poorer. The trickle down *theory*

DOES NOT WORK!

The only thing it does is give the rich more money to either hoard and do nothing with (which makes the whole nation poorer), or spend in wasteful ways or in speculative ways (which ALSO damages our economy that much more), when they can afford to lose that much more and cause speculative markets to overprice certain very necessary segments of our economy (housing, gasoline, etc.) that makes our situations that much more worse, and hard to properly and responsibly plan for.

Do not let them put all of the blame on you! That is the typical corporatist and Republican way of doing things. It is like immigration. Either blame the immigrants for all of us losing our jobs, or blame us for not working for the dirt cheap wages they are being paid to compete with them, while they get that much richer off of artificially lower labor costs.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

41. Yep.

That's why I mentioned the GDP. It's easy to think of the economy only as it pertains to your particular situation, but the reality is we are interconnected whether we want to be or not.

[starroute]

42. Shopping satisfies a biological need

I don't shop much, mainly because I don't have the money, but I've had to make a few major purchases lately for my house -- like upgrading the storm doors to keep the heat in next winter -- and I was surprised at how really *good* it made me feel.

In thinking about that, it struck me that there's a basic hunter-gatherer imperative involved here. If you're a hunter-gatherer, you go out in the morning and you bring back *stuff* -- roots, seeds, turtles, baby kangaroos, whatever. You hunt or you gather and then you come home to show off your prizes.

Holding a job doesn't really satisfy that urge to bring stuff back. You're earning a paycheck so you can put food on your family, but you have nothing tangible to show for it. It's not until you go out and spend that paycheck in exchange for *stuff* that you can see the tangible fruits of your labors.

Only now something dangerous has happened -- because earning and spending have been separated from one another. What is a single set of daily routines for the hunter-gatherer has become dissociated for us. That leaves us open to be manipulated, because we have certain emotional needs that earning alone doesn't satisfy. It also makes us vulnerable to spending more than we earn -- both because credit lets us do that and also because spending is just so much more *fun* than earning.

I don't see any easy answer to this. It's the way modern life works. It allows us to have a far wider ranger of options than if we were limited to what we could personally hunt for or gather, and we're not going back to the old ways. But if we can at least become aware of what we're experiencing, we may be less subject to manipulation -- and we might also be able to come up with less risky ways of satisfying those ancient emotional needs.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

52. I can see that.

There is definitely this cycle of risk/reward involved with spending and using credit. I've found that I can satiate the urge to a certain extent by going to consignment shops and yard sales. I get the thrill of "scoring" a new item (new to me, anyway) but it costs practically nothing and I feel good about re-using something.

[renate]

97. what an interesting idea!

Sometimes it really does feel good to buy certain things, doesn't it? Not so much the gift-shop-on-the-way-out crap that you didn't know you "needed," but stuff that really makes your life easier or more pleasant, or even just something that brings a little beauty into your life.

Your comparison to hunting and gathering is very apt and very interesting. And understanding that basic, ancient motivation will probably make the temptation to go out and buy something, anything--you know how you get that itch sometimes?, or anyway I do--easier to resist.

[JI7]

45. some people really don't understand the whole interest rate stuff

they just see the part where you "only" have to pay this minimum a month. personally i try to pay off anythinig i put on credit right away so i don't have to pay any interest on it.

i'm not talking about people who don't have a choice here and need certain items, especially basics like food and just needing to pay off home bills and have to resort to that. i'm talking about people spending on things like entertainment and other things they don't need but just want.

[Common Sense Party]

46. I hope I didn't come across that way on the 401k thread.

I've been in deep financial doo-doo more than once. We're not completely out of it, due to on-going medical expenses (and, luckily, we HAVE insurance).

I know that MANY people get in dire straits through no fault of their own. They're laid off in a down economy. Their spouse leaves them. Medical Murphy's Law strikes without warning.

But other people have some say, and get to make choices.

SOME people DO need to be more responsible for their own finances. SOME people DO need to learn to say "no." SOME people DO need to learn how to budget, how to get adequately insured, and how to invest.

I still say--and have for years--that it's criminal that we STILL don't teach this stuff in most high schools (not to mention universities). It should be REQUIRED.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

51. Honestly, this is not a comment on any particular DUer.

You are absolutely right about financial literacy courses. I've petitioned my state legislators to introduce a bill to include that in the high school curriculum. One of them confided in me that when they broached the subject, the credit card lobby rallied against it. Big surprise, huh? :eyes:

[Cleita]

48. I find the premise of this thread kind of silly.

Nobody goes into debt unless they have to. Even back in the sixties when it was possible to go into debt to buy a car or TV or other pricey items, lenders were pretty careful not to lend to those they felt might not have a steady job or other income. Today, I find I put necessities like prescription drugs or dental work on a credit card because I don't have the discretionary income to do so when I need them. I think other people do the same. I honestly don't know of anyone who charges stuff that they can't pay for unless they are dishonest or figure someone is going to bail them out somehow like mommy.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

49. You're right, of course.

But I'm specifically addressing the way that marketers continue to exploit peoples' psyches to manipulate them to buy things they don't need. My focus is narrow, deliberately. I'm not making a comment on people using credit to buy necessities, which is absolutely a factor in the economy now.

[nadinbrzezinski]

54. I hate to do this, but I could introduce you to a relative of mine

that does that... in fact my older brother. Long and SAD story

And many twenty somethings that do that.

Oooh look new shiny IPOD, must keep up with the Jonesess...

Not shiting you

[Cleita]

55. Yeah but who is bailing them out?

Those who don't get relatives or others who bail them out have to face the consequences and that means that they get cut off their credit.

[nadinbrzezinski]

56. They'll face the music soon enough

But my niece, I went... wtf? New shiny touch ipod came out and she had to absolutely have it... me I went to her parents... YOU TWO ARE FUGGING NUTS!

I got paid for it, so I don't care how the hell they pay for it... but they are facing consequences.

And I do blame mom for it, partially

[nadinbrzezinski]

53. I thank my dad

he taught us to save... and these days if we buy "on credit" it is paid by the end of the month

We save for stuff.... we may want, like when we replaced puters

Or the trip we are taking

But we are careful about it

And that is my dad, truly

And I hope things are not that bad or I fear my dad and mom may loose their shirts and they are not young enough to save and damn it, they did all the right things

And as to marketing, you are correct, it is creating the ilusion that you need something you don't need

My niece is a puurrrfect example and she was not even raised in the US... it is not limited to the US

[mrreowwr_kittty]

58. Oh god let me make some minor grammatical and spelling corrections!

I hate that you only have so many minutes to correct your post!

"This post isn't mean to call any particular DUer out." Of course, what I meant to say was this post "doesn't mean" or "isn't intended to"...

"Go to a sales seminar sometime and see the kind of behavior modification tactics salespeople (often under incredible pressure to keep their numbers us)..." Of course, I mean "up".

Gah. :banghead:

[Wednesdays]

59. K&R

:kick:

[JHB]

60. "If you love communism so much why don't you go back home to Russia!"

Don't forget that consumer protection and any anti-materialist impulses have been actively snuffed for the last 30 years.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

62. And don't forget that Dumbya told everyone to go shopping after 9/11

It was our patriotic duty. A point I like to remind my conservative acquaintances of when they start in on things like bankruptcy and credit card debt.

[cap]

61. Many people who make those purchases are assuming that they

have a stable income stream. It looks like they can afford it until they get laid off and then they are hammered. I am seeing less and less frivolous spending now. I would rather see more energy spent hammering corporations on "rank and yank" policies that let them lay off the bottom 10% of the workers, in good times, rather than whacking people over their spending habits. If you are laying off 10% of the workers, then, guess what? They don't have the income stream for a payment plan. Duh....and that screws up the credit markets for everyone and everything... even medical bills, cars and houses.

Don't get me started on outsourcing. Sorry. I'm not into bashing the worker these days. It's the corporations treating people like widgets.

I am starting to get to the point of wanting to pay cash for everything. We want a new car but if MIL doesn't give us her car (she's going into a nursing home as soon as her house sells), I am seriously thinking of paying cash for the car.

[DailyGrind51]

63. I don't have a cell phone, don't subscribe to cable, drive and 11-year-old car,

rarely use my single credit card, rarely eat out, but was able to pay off a house and have no real debts, other than property taxes and utilities. It just takes learning to do without and not minding too much.:-)

[mrreowwr_kittty]

65. You're right.

But the point of my post is to discuss the powerful forces at work to get people to spend money.

[DailyGrind51]

73. You are right, too! Advertisers tell me how much easier my life

would be with THEIR cell phone deal. And, I know that it would be much more convenient with a cell phone, but I think of the monthly bills I am not paying and suck up the inconvenience.

[librechik]

66. yes, Right now I'm saving up the $35,000 it will cost if I need a gall bladder operation someday.

I'm also working on the $112,000 it will cost for a heart valve replacement. I'm waiting to have either of those problems until I have saved enough to pay for them (out of my less than $35,000/year salary.

Wheee!

And once I get those out of the way I can start paying off my $195,000 student loan!

At least i got a job in my field--for now...Even if it doesn't pay me yuppie level earnings...

[raccoon]

101. Don't worry, you can go to India/Thailand and get it done much cheaper.

:sarcasm: (on the Don't worry part)

[Swede]

67. Most are in debt because they were never taught the rules of the game.

And the bank loves that,and want to keep it that way.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

69. Attempts to educate consumers are fought vigorously by financial cos.

Consumer advocates wanted credit card terms to be in larger print and in plain language on credit card agreements. No dice. Too many congresscritters in the pockets of MBNA and Chase.

[mdmc]

70. Everyone I know that is in debt resulting from poor financial planning

and poor health.

My dad's high school buddy have 2 mill in real estate and over $500k in savings!

Alzheimer's forced him to divorce his wife to protect their assets. Once divorced, he went bankrupt and got medicaid.

So what is your point?

[mrreowwr_kittty]

71. Your dad's friend got divorced so he could stick taxpayers with the tab for his care

What's YOUR point?

[mdmc]

76. Without socialized medicine

we all lose.

This couple worked their whole life. They were as successful as a couple could be.
They were married for 50 years.
They needed to either end their marriage or lose their savings in order to receive medical treatment.

I would have done the same thing, although the divorce broke their hearts.

What would you have done? Lost your nest egg to pay save your health?

[mrreowwr_kittty]

77. You're right, we don't have socialized medicine right now

I agree that there needs to be a single payer, non-means tested, system. But we don't have that now. What most states have are HORRIBLY inadequate and underfunded long term health care systems. Do you have any idea how long truly indigent people wait for decent facilities? It's completely fraudulent and unfair for affluent people to hide assets so they can qualify for state aid and add to an already overburdened system.

[mdmc]

98. What they did was legal

The divorce legally protects the assets - all of which belong to the healthy wife.
Why should the sick man give everything he ever worked for up in order to get treated?
If they didn't do this, they would have exhausted all their assets, he still would have ended up on medicaid, and she would have lost everything and would be on welfare.
Why?
Rich people get all the perks. After working and saving their whole lives, they get to keep what they earn. They know how to do it.

The idea that even the wealthy can end up destitute is scary. Without the divorce, the wife would have gone from wealthy to welfare. In terms of the OP, you would call her stupid, and blame her. Now you say she shouldn't divorce him, she should allow everything they worked for to be taken by his treatment providers, and that she should live the rest of her life in poverty. Which one is it? I think she made the right choice.

It sucks that the government requires them to terminate a loving marriage in order to receive health care.

As far as your poor people comment goes, I do in fact know. Sadly, no poor people make it this far- by the time dementia sets in, they have already died of other causes or have been placed in a nursing home.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

105. Yeah, I know it's legal. There's a branch of law called Elder Law

Wealthy people like your friends pay a lawyer to figure out how to shuffle assets so they can get state aid while the family keeps the wealth. Middle class people (who are generally classified as having between $50K and $2 million in assets) don't usually know about such services or can't afford them, so they lose everything when there's a long term care situation, and then wait for months for the state to kick in.

I notice in your post the heavy inference that the moral superiority of the wealthy makes them more deserving than everyone else. As for your contention that wealthly people can become destitute, maybe if it happened to more of them, they'd be more inclined to support things like universal health care, and not lobby fiercely against anything that helps working people like they do now. For the most part, we can thank rich people for the fact that we DON'T have those things. So you'll have to forgive me if I cast a jaundiced eye on what your friends did. And I don't care if they themselves were the most liberal Democrats in the world.

[raccoon]

102. Thank you. nt

[mrreowwr_kittty]

108. Unbelievable that anyone would justify that. nt

[Political Heretic]

72. It's both an individual problem and a societal problem.

You're not wrong - but we need to make sure we don't emphasize one at the expense of the other. There are problems and unfairness in the system, especially if you are poor. And there is a lack of responsibility, understanding or consumer awareness on the part of individuals as well. I know because I've been through it. My own circumstances are a mixture of things that were not my fault and things that were my responsibility.

Let's just be sure we don't become "conservatives" and do nothing but blame the individual and ignore all problems inherent in the system in the process. :)

[mrreowwr_kittty]

75. Yeah, and it doesn't help that consumer spending is the slender thread holding up our economy now

It's so ironic that the very people who, as a group, are keeping us afloat (barely) are scorned as individuals.

[Karenina]

82. Your point seems to be zipping by...

70% of GDP. Stagnant wages (for 30 years), rampant inflation, high unemployment, broken social contract, Edward Bernays and the dumbing down of America. CC companies now have the POWER to NIX financial education in the schools AND write the bankruptcy laws. Indeed, many seem oblivious to the forces that have "governed" their entire lives. The Paul Weyrich types have been funding think tanks and programs to bring the populace to this point for nearly 50 years. THEY had a "grassroots" plan and implemented it DECADES AGO. Anyone who believes a mere election will send them packing is living in la-la-land.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

83. Some DUers have drunk the Self-Reliance Koolaid where finance is concerned

They really think their personal savvy will prevent them from going down with the rest of us. All it will do is delay the inevitable.

[Karenina]

84. Ah yes, ignorance of the "ripple effect."

"Butterfly wings, pshaw! *I* did it right!!! I'm OK! YOU should have done it MY WAY!!!" :rofl:
We expats joke, "Amis don't get the word, "exponential."

The "Every man for himself - rugged individual" myth will do much damage before it is rejected as falsehood.

[Wcross]

I guess working hard to get out of debt is frowned upon here.

Debt means you can not afford your lifestyle NO MATTER HOW ENTITLED you may feel you are. It is a shame that some people feel inferior due to their debt load as if I am rubbing that in your face. I am merely suggesting that getting out of debt is a worthy & achievable goal for most people. People have a choice in this, they can continue to borrow or they can sacrifice for a few years and be free.
To those advocating helplessness in the matter, enjoy your poverty. As you sip that financed Slurpee from 7-11 think about what it would be like NOT sending that minimum payment into MasterCard.
It's your choice.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

87. I guess you haven't bothered to read my post.

In fact, it's pretty clear you haven't.

[Wcross]

88. In fact I have, as well as the sub posts.

Clearly you are conflicted.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

90. Yes, I am conflicted.

It's a conflicting and contradictory world we live in. Not as simple and black and white as you think it is.

[Wcross]

92. Ok, you win. There is no way to live debt free in the United States.

You have to go deep in debt to live, there is no way around it so we should all get used to "monthly payments" until they stick us in the ground. It is so unfair but what can ya do? The sooner you give up on even trying the better off you will be! The good news is that when you die, the debt is gone.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

93. I didn't say that.

You seem to see debt as purely an individual failing, while I see it in a larger socio-economic context. That is not to say I don't think people bear some personal responsibility, which I made clear in my OP. My point was to describe how relentless marketing is and that many people are vulnerable to it.

[sendero]

94. I see your point..

... but guess what about those "larger socio-economic contexts".

They don't give a fuck about any individual. A person, a family, has to take it upon themselves to ensure their financial future.

Unless you are at or just above the poverty line, it is possible to live without going into debt servitude. I've done it all my life, while my similiarly incomed friends were buying new cars and lavish vacation, I was driving beaters and staying home. I have little sympathy for their situation now as any normal person would.

Is it tougher to make it now than it was 30 years ago? No doubt about it. You live in the world that exists, not some past-time utopia that really never was. You "pay yourself first" (save some of your income) period. But I don't see many people doing that any more, we are a nation of grasshoppers with few ants. It's really not my problem, and the excuses won't help one bit.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

95. Good for you. nt

[Wcross]

86. dupe

[Cairycat]

89. One thing that has helped my family

is not watching tv. Before we had kids, and during the summer when they were small, we didn't have/shut off the tv. It was funny how much that helped with not wanting stuff. I suspect it's some thing we need to get back to.

Of course all media are used to carry advertising messages, but tv seems to be a particularly effective medium.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

91. Not watching TV helps a lot.

However, the marketers are hip to that, and the fact that people are zapping commercials with TiVo and DVR. Now there's product placement everywhere you go.

Did you know that in large cities there are people who work as viral street marketers? Here's how it works: A very attractive couple or group of people will walk the streets all day. They're what you call "aspirational" types - not movie stars but the kind of people who exude confidence and success. They will walk by people and comment about a new product or CD or movie or something. They might actually be using a product, such as a new kind of sports water. But you will hear them talking about it and it might put the idea in your mind to get that product.

How about the new technology that allows companies to "beam" messages into your skull? http://www.boston.com/business/globe/articles/2007/04/24/the_marketers_have_your_ear/

Pretty insidious stuff.

[HughBeaumont]

99. Of course, when you look at disposable income THEN vs NOW . . . kind of puts it in perspective.

Work environments then vs now also factor into "anything goes" lending and credit approval. Creditors became less stringent when they realized they were alienating an entire middle/working/poor class that could be buying fad items, creature comforts and otherwise useless junk. Gotta keep this junk-driven economy moving, you know.

The problem now is, as Elizabeth Warren has pointed out, that we're actually spending LESS on appliances, electronics and other things and far MORE on housing, groceries, health care and automobiles than we did 30 years ago. Our debt is now for necessities more than anything.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/HughBeaumont/46

[Yavin4]

100. I Disagree. I Too Had Too Much Credit Card Debt. However,...

It was because I was grossly underpaid, and I used my CC to supplement my income. I live a normal lifestyle, not frugal but not extravagant either. When you live in a city like SF and you make $29,000 a year, you will use credit cards to make ends meet.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

107. I understand. I'm not talking about using credit for necessities.

My post was focused on people who actually do overspend on discretionary items. They are so often the target of condescension and scorn by the financial scolds on this board and elsewhere. I'm trying to point out the absurdity of bashing people for succumbing to extremely powerful and pervasive marketing messages, when at the same time consumer spending is what's propping up this lame economy.

[B Calm]

103. 2008 wages = 1986 wages

[closeupready]

104. So you were stupid once. Now you're not. Some people can't afford to go get marketing degrees,

and they stay stupid. Therefore, anyone without a marketing degree has a valid excuse, according to your underlying logic.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

106. Yeah, that's it.

Don't let my pointing out the powerful marketing forces that work on us interfere with your superiority complex. You have some friends on this thread. Maybe you guys could all get together and have a contest to see who is the Most Frugal and Savviest Investor. :eyes:

[Javaman]

109. so in a nation where the educational system nor the parents stress

civics nor financial education, the resulting people who 1) don't have a clue as to how their government works and 2) wouldn't know how to balance a check book to save their lives are the ones totally responsible for being in debt?

When you have a fed reserve chairman (greenspaz) who back in 2001 basically said that the sky is the limit when it comes to housing or a moron* for a prez who tells us to go shop to save the economy, it's totally the prols fault for being ignorant?

Yes, there are intelligent people out there that will take that responsibility and control their finances but honestly, the way this nation and the media fell hook line and sinker for 1) the lead up to the iraqi war and 2) easy money can be made by buying 10 houses in hopes to flip them, do you really think that these people are willful morons or just have been so inundated with propaganda bullshit that we all can be receiver of the american dream with 2.5 kids a huge house like all the faux rich and an SUV that compliments our glutinous life styles?

We as a nation have been bought and sold to the highest bidding corporation, but instead of a logical investment, moron* in charge has basically turned the american public into the living version of a hedge fund. Basing his* belief that mouth breathing public won't wake up one day and question what the fuck is going on.

That day came when gas at the pump topped 4 bucks. Now the economy is in free fall because for the last 30+ years the economic model by which the US has been running on has proved to be imaginary. but also during that 30+ year run the american public has been treated to one bullshit story after another regarding debt.

When you have a government that uses supply side economics as it's model, debt spending, what subliminal message does that send to the public? spend spend spend. The republican mentality of never ending supplies and trickling down of imaginary wealth to the huddling masses is nothing more than total and complete fabrication, brought to you by the ministry of love. Less is more.

CEO salaries in comparison to the average wage earners over the past 40 years has grown apart by a factor of 450%. While wages for that average person has dropped. We are getting less and less for the dollar over this time, yet we are told that we are living the great life.

Buy, buy, buy we are told. You are an american and deserve to have the best! However, we only buy crappy stuff from china and produce and manufacture less and less here in the states. We are beholden to the corporations bottom line and the share holders voice.

If there are morons who are in debt, those morons are all of us, not just those with a negative balance. For those who have a balanced sheet are also a part of a system that relies upon corporate greed to dictate what is to be an not to be.

I refuse to believe that financial responsibility is a systemic problem based souly on the idea or concept that people are poor planners or can not manage their budget.

Without the basic tools to govern one finances nor the insight to what that even means, the fault lies squarely on the system and not the individual.

[pitohui]

110. being frugal is not an option when salaries are so out of whack with costs

i don't doubt there are some upper middle class people, who could retire as rich people, if they didn't buy lattes and SUVs

however, the people i know who have significant debt have the debt because 1) they got an education, 2) they got a serious disease or injury that incurred six or seven figures worth of medical expenses, or 3) they got kids

we can decide not to get an educations and not to have kids but whether or not we're hit by an un-insured drunk driver or get cancer at age 38 is pretty much out of our hands

for the average low salaried wage slave there is NO way to be frugal enough to save up the kind of money needed to stay out of debt on today's salaries unless 1) you are careful not to have kids, and 2) you are blessed enough to never be ill or injured

my husband has put well above the national average of savings in his retirement account each year, over 20 percent of our income some years, and yet we cannot project any way that he will ever be able to retire -- and we don't have kids

there is a point beyond which frugality is pointless, you have to actually increase income, and if you have no legal means of increasing income, what should you do? i guess you should be happy to live in a cardboard box and drive a scooter forever?

i don't criticize you, catburglar, but i don't think the problem is people buying starbucks once in a while, even if it was YOUR problem, in my circle at least the major cause of bankruptcy is medical expenses and the major cause of ongoing uncontrolled expenses that prevent people from saving is having a child

your point about the billions spent to brainwash people is a good one, but many people would love to have the disposable income to be brainwashed out of, if you know what i mean -- there just isn't any lint left in people's pockets and that's why they borrow

[mrreowwr_kittty]

111. I understand. The focus of my OP was deliberately narrow.

I wanted to explain that even for people who made enough money to save, entire industries exist to brainwash them into parting with it for "stuff" that will make them worthwhile.

[lynettebro440]

113. I was somebody that had perfect credit

It was the one thing that I was proudest in life about (besides my kids). My ex and I married in 79 when the economy was tanking. He is probably the one reason today I am able to make a penny stretch 10 different ways.

I have known poverty so many times, but till my 40's I kept my credit spotless, again I was proud of that. I never bought much but always had what I thought was too much, usually around 5k on a card. During my 40's I moved to southern florida and got taken into an investment with a group of people, one in which I lived with and unbeknown st to me (and yes I was stupid) I let this guy co-sign on my cards. Well 60k later and a foreclosure of our investment I got hit hard. I was homeless, lived on the beach for a month, my car, it was pretty bad. I finally got wise in 2001 after 9/11 and moved back to the midwest. I had nothing, I mean nothing at all but was able to get a job, a roof over my head, a mattress and a little TV. I had to claim bankruptcy in 2003 right before the laws changed. I swore I would never get into that situation again. I started reading DU shortly after that and realized what was about to happen in the world (and I was smart enough to live through another past war and knew what it does to an economy). I started preparing, I have lived off my paycheck, nothing more. I starting shopping at the Dollar Store back when it was uncool. Now I have had 5 years of living this way while I'm watching now people just getting to that realization that this might actually be their lives.

I have to admit, I smirk when I see the big 4X4's, F150, Hummers......I find great satisfaction in knowing they are getting 10 miles to the gallon and it's got to be costing them $150 to fill them. And here pathetic me invested in a 1995 Honda Civic in 2005 for a whopping thousand dollars and I still drive the little beast with 195k miles and still running great and great gas mileage. The horrible lessons I had to learn in life became a gift from god in preparing for the reality now. I agree with your post. I am really tired of being looked down on by the yuppies of my generation when I'm the exact same as all of them, I just chose not to have to SHOW off who I am, I'm real secure in knowing that I'm a hell of a lot smarter then they are because I didn't get sunk into the spending frenzies that they did. So my little smirk makes me feel good when this world is sucking bad. If that make me bad, then well, me bad.