What does it cost to live in America on avg?

[The Straight Story]

Each state is different of course. Following is some basic data for CA I have gleaned (and some after thoughts on it all) For three people:

2 bedroom apt (not in San Fran and such)
$950 - 1200 / mo

Car Insurance
$600-$1000 a year, higher if you have poor credit

Utilities:
About 60/month for water
Roughly 300/month for electric and gas (PGE)

Food:
From all my research everywhere from 400-1000/month

Gas for car:
Not sure of an avg, but I drive 9 miles a day round trip, get about 25 mpg if I am lucky in a small car. Does not include trips to grocery store, friends' homes, etc.

All told, on avg:
about 2k a month if you are lucky for three people with no frills (and does not include getting your car smogged, license renewal, cell phones or a phone in general, renter's insurance, internet, or cable).

Thoughts on it all:
I know quite a few illegals here in my hood who live together (2-3 families in one house + garage), don't have taxes come out of their 'checks' as they work under the table (people pay them cash to cut their lawns, clean their homes) so they are able to survive and seek out the American dream (and save) as they share the burden and can avoid the larger fees associated with being 'legal'.

I am not saying anything negative about them personally - but I do see why they are more able to have here what many of us want. They sacrifice living one family to a home, and don't have to pay out all that others are supposed to. While the rich find loopholes in a 'legal' way, many others find loop holes in their own way.

I can have maid service for $100/month and my yard done for $65/month (grass cut, weeding, bushes trimmed, lawn blown off, etc once a week) - money that will never be taxed. My one neighbor does a ton of lawns at $65/month all under the table (ie, off the govt radar) and makes more than I do after taxes easily.

And most these folks don't pay for car insurance, license fees, etc.

I am not angry with them, if anything I envy them for being so free from our system (and that does not even mention the small business owners I know here who have guys 'working' for them for no pay but they give them store credit for beer, smokes, etc). Nothing on the books in that regard.

[noamnety]

1. "illegals"? nt

[The Straight Story]

2. My Neighbors

Good folk here under the radar.

Not bitching about them so much as being envious that they are not as much a part of the system as we are and can therefore make what they have stretch further.

[NYC_SKP]

4. Yes, I'm generally in the poster's region. They are illegal, they know it. No big.

They are breaking the law and know it, and we know it, and nobody cares, least of all them.

In case anyone wants to get all PC on this deal, they'd better have known and worked with as many undocumented aliens from south of the border as I have.

[EFerrari]

19. I bet I have and there is no such thing as an illegal person. n/t

[NYC_SKP]

22. Semantics....lawbreakers, then. nt

[EFerrari]

31. It's not just a word game. It's a distribution of power and blame.

Calling those working people "illegals" or even "lawbreakers" allows you to believe that somehow they are responsible for the system that rips them and you off. Because it is a racket and we all know that.

[NYC_SKP]

35. Undocumented aliens are a real problem, they cost us all money, they are only

good for the wealthy in the end.

Now, with respect to the crusade to abolish the term "illegal" from common usage, I agree, you're right, it's demeaning, people aren't property.

All the energy to police the language distracts from the real problems of driving wages down, driving costs up, and nothing gets done about the root of the problem.

So, to recap, it's not right to call them "illegals".

And, nice as most of these people are, the are lawbreakers and nothing is being done to reward those who immigrate legally or to address those who don't bother to try to do it within the law.

[EFerrari]

37. Undocumented workers are a net gain to the economy.

They don't cost us all money. They've been helping prop up this POS.

Punishing them for that contribution will do nothing to secure your financial future.

The whole frame is misleading. All the energy spend on calling out the administrative law in question is a distraction from the real agents of power who drive wages down and costs up. Like the people who sold you ethanol and Iraq and free trade agreements that allow slave labor conditions in other countries.

Undocumented workers did not break labor in this country. Our government did that. Or, rather, the people who own our government.

Focusing on these workers is just another form of religion.

[NYC_SKP]

38. Let me put it a different way.

If you live in a county where 70% of the births at the county general hospital in 2006 were to undocumented women here illegally from Mexico, this costs you money.

If the company that paid you $12.75/hour in the 1970's now pays undocumented men less than $10.00/hour, someone's getting screwed and someone is gaining.

We agree that these undocumented workers did not create the problem, they are not the problem, we are the problem for having let our government turn a blind eye to it, to allow them to let employers get away with underpaying these people to work in unsafe conditions. We agree on that.

I happen to think that there are those, maybe you're among them and maybe not, who do nothing more than sound the alarm over the use of the word "illegal" and then feel like they're changing the world. I'm sorry to report that these people irk me. It sounds like you do more than bitch about the language used, so I salute you.

Now, in the paper at my parents house this evening, news of a business owner who dumped a workers body in an orchard to avoid having to send worker's comp payments to his parents in Mexico.
There are a couple disturbing things, like working conditions and where our money goes and the value of human life, that present themselves in this article:

snip:

The sudden death of immigrant worker Pedro Servin amid a blistering Central Valley heat wave two years ago may have attracted little attention under different circumstances.

But a Stockton attorney for the dead man's parents, who live in Mexico, said the fact that the employers at General Pallet in Vernalis hauled the 43-year-old's body away from their work yard to a nearby orchard and left him sitting propped him up under a tree caught his attention.

"Obviously, they were trying to escape responsibility," attorney Douglas Gessell said.

Gessell said he's prepared to prove that brothers Jose and Joe "Billy" Lopez, owners of the Vernalis pallet firm, and their employee, Rogelio Sanchez, were negligent for abandoning Servin's body to avoid paying his elderly parents workers' compensation benefits and other possible fines for violating labor law.

http://www.recordnet.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080705/A_NEWS/807050318

one caveat: The article refers to the deceased as a migrant worker, usually green carded and here legally, but the story still speaks to the disturbing matters to which I referred above.

[EFerrari]

41. This is a complicated issue, I agree.

And it is true that some local venues carry the costs much much more than others -- but that is true for just about everything since Bush dismantled our social systems.

I used to translate for undocumented workers that were thrown into our country jail and had no way to even let their families know they were still alive -- for months. And listened to story after story of abuse, taking depositions for the few cases the Feds ever prosecuted.

Imho, there is no better strategy than for working people to band together on this issue, documented, undocumented, citizens and non citizens. Because then there is no real place for the perps to hide. Not to mention, working people (in their spare time) need to realize that our free trade agreements in Latin America are driving people North. And that our government is not above manipulating elections for their buddies that do the same thing -- like the last one in Mexico. It's the same usual suspects -- Coca Cola, Exxon et all -- that gain from all this and then turn around and set us against each other.

[NYC_SKP]

42. Thanks for the response.

Common ground is so very encouraging.

And yes, the complexity of it all makes for apathy at the voting booth.

What is certain is that all too many legislators on both sides of the aisle are too short-sighted.

What is good for the economy in the near term can be devastating in the long term, and it seems that 90% of new legislation is economically unsustainable, but politically expedient.

I think about Social Security, for example.

Third rail as long as I can remember. I support Obama's solution.

[EFerrari]

43. It's difficult to take the long term view

especially when the Republicans need to whip up xenophobia AND yet try to compete with us for the Latino vote.

The fact is, there have always been people from what we now call Latin America migrating up here seasonally -- long before there even was a United States. Native peoples would come up here for the season and then go back home when the season was over.

Imho, as long as we buy into the surface story about how undocumented workers are "the problem", we're not seeing the bigger picture. We're falling in line with a narrative that forces us to take sides against natural allies and against our own best interests. It's too easy to take sides against the people over the hill and not to pay attention to the multinationals that are cleaning up on all our backs.

Especially when most of those people would just prefer to stay home in the first place.

I love Thom Hartmann but disagree with him on this issue. He talks about supply and demand but doesn't really get into how supply and demand are so manipulated today that working people are set up to lose three ways to Sunday. If trade is globalized so must labor be globalized or we're just lining up for the slaughter.

Fwiw.

[silverojo]

36. "Illegals" is shortened from "illegal aliens"

As if you didn't know.

And BTW, there is such a thing as a person engaging in illegal activity, which is what illegal aliens are doing.

[BlueJazz]

5. A term meaning Illegal Immigrants

[noamnety]

7. a dehumanizing term.

Soon as I see it, I can tell it's going to be a Lou Dobbs style speech about how "it's not that I hate them, mind you, I'm not a racist" they just got it sooooo much easier than we do.

[BlueJazz]

10. I tend not to think about Illegal Aliens in derogatory terms....just people...

...who are here illegally.

[The Straight Story]

12. Easy way out of a debate, is to object to some term and drop out

I don't have an issue with my illegal friends here - and I think if you look a little deeper you will see that there are a lot of people here legally living an illegal lifestyle because living by the rules here is not always easy for so many of us.

I think that maybe many of those here illegally have the right idea - ignore our stupid laws and work hard to survive.

If they were rich they could do so legally by having people find them loopholes to our laws. But most of us cannot - and therefore I am betting there are many of us here living 'illegally' - and that does not simply imply being here that way, but living here that way.

[noamnety]

16. If you don't want people objecting to your terms

don't use coded language. Words carry meaning.

Anytime I see anyone here using terms like that, I call them on it. Either you weren't aware it's a coded word adopted by right wing racists whose attitudes you reinforce every time you use it, in which case you are hereby informed, or you were aware and made a decision to use it anyway, in which case you deserve to have your thread derailed over it.

You're mixing a whole bunch of crap together here aside from that.

When people group together as 2 or 3 families, yes, they save money. That's not something to be jealous about, going on about how they got it so much easier than us. If you want to save money on rent, go share a place with three other families, or move to a smaller place, maybe a trailer. You being a US citizen isn't stopping you. You have the same choice there that they do. You being indoctrinated into thinking you need all that space for you and your immediate family is what's stopping you.

I don't know why you feel the need to even mix that into your thread, like they are getting one over on you by sharing a house.

[The Straight Story]

20. How did it become coded language??

Did the RW tell you how to think about such terms and you listened?

Illegal means just that, it is not a catch phrase someone can simply own on one side of the aisle or the other. SOME people who live here are doing so illegally based on the laws we have.

Those same people have some advantages we don't, as they are already breaking one law so they don't obey the others we have.

And maybe that is why so many have issues with them - they have more freedom than we do, but instead of complaining about it so much maybe we should learn a lesson from them and expand our own freedoms.

Maybe the lesson is, is that the government we live under is way too restrictive some times.

[noamnety]

26. When you were "siding" with them

I guess you weren't doing it at any of their protests, or you would have seen their signs.

You need to educate yourself on the term, how it's used, what you reinforce when you use it as a pronoun to mark a person's identity, and why immigrants march with signs that say No One Is Illegal.

You're a poor advocate for an oppressed group if you refuse to first and foremost listen to them.




I don't know how you could have been on DU this long without realizing it's an offensive term.

However, I've been in similar situations, working with a group and using a phrase that shocked and offended them, so I know it can happen. When I was called on it though, I apologized, silently thought pffft, that's stupid, but filed it away that I wouldn't use it anyway because they have the right to define themselves, and over the next few days/weeks I came to a less defensive and better understanding of why it was offensive.

[noamnety]

28. I want to direct you to this excerpt

from a book called Latinos Unidos: From Cultural Diversity to the Politics of Solidarity

http://books.google.com/books?id=iFI1Dlq9W1EC&pg=PR12&lpg=PR12&dq=%22illegals%22+%22coded+language%22&source=web&ots=nsWiMyX0KQ&sig=F47dgi_HScIMsI91hI1lmMAyeMg&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=8&ct=result


If that link doesn't work for you, let me know and I'll retype the passage, but it should take you to a paragraph talking about coded language and the use of "illegals" and other terms.

[Ysabel]

13. it's a disgusting term...

[The Straight Story]

17. And yet, it is not only applied to people living here illegally

Day after day I hear similar terms applied to others who 'break the law' to live their lives as they see fit.

Smoke in a bar, drive with out a seat belt, drive while on a cell phone, drive an SUV, work for a big company, etc and so on, and you are labeled as something awful - but say you are here illegally and doing similar things and suddenly you are all ok.

What then is the difference between one group of people who stand up to oppression and another group?

Maybe it is our own perception and who we consider good and bad.

I side with those here illegally and those here who tell our govt to take a flying fuck when it comes to how to live their own lives.

[noamnety]

21. I have never once heard the people you listed referred to as "illegals."

If you're claiming you daily hear people driving without seat belts called "illegals" I don't believe you.

[The Straight Story]

25. not what I was saying at all

If you come to the US in an illegal manner, people tend to cut you some slack. If you live here and do things which are considered illegal you get your ass kicked (especially by folks on the left on some issues).

If I break the law by smoking in a bar, I am a bad person. If I break the law by coming here, working under the table, etc, I am ok.

When do we on the left respect the law and when do we rise up against it and call BS and ignore it? When do we support those that ignore it?

Freedom is a big thing, and I support it across the board - from those coming here because we have fucked over their lands to those choosing to not wear a seat belt because they feel it is wrong and is giving the govt too much power.

[midnight]

3. Good work putting this on paper so we can all see why things

are so expensive.

[jpcrecom]

6. should have open boarders

No "legal" or "illegal" immigration. If you want in the country; you're in. The only requirement is a background check, fingerprinting, etc - get them "in the system". That's the only requirement to be in the country when I'm king. Failure to do that is criminal, mandatory jail time followed by deportation.

I think there's an irrational protectionist fear regarding immigrants (from both sides of the political spectrum, actually). People only look at immigrants as takers. They are taking jobs and taking this and that. But they also put money into the economy. They are also buyers of goods which creates needs for more jobs. If they want to be here, and they can get a job - any job. Let them stay.

[cags]

8. My illegal immigrant plan is....

I believe it is extremely important that we know who is in this country. We cannot just deport all illegal immigrants but we also cannot just give them a free pass. I suggest along with stronger border security, and employer fines and monitoring of illegal hiring that we also allow illegal immigrants a chance to be here legally so they are no longer hiding in the shadows. They will need an incentive to come out of those shadows though. I suggest a 6-9 month registration period where all illegal immigrants currently here must register with the government and get an employee # so that they can legally work here and increase our tax revenue. They should not be fined because many of these families are poor as it is and it would only be a deterrent to registering. The "Price" for becoming legal in America should be, not being allowed to vote in any election ever, be required to learn English, and limited public aid would be available to them. After the 6-9 month registration period any illegal immigrant not registered and caught could be deported. Any one who wants to legally work, live and raise a family here should not be opposed to registering. Families would stay together, tax revenue would increase with all the new taxpayers, maybe they wouldn't have to stand on street corners waiting for that next cash job to come along. Being registered would allow them to contribute to the community and we would have a better handle on who is in this country.

[Ysabel]

14. you are talking about taxing with no representation (no vote)...

- i'm out of this thread...

[cags]

33. There has to be price for becoming legal when you came here illegally. A free pass won't work

[EFerrari]

44. Why?

[papapi]

9. My partner and I have toyed with the idea of becoming some sort of . . .

corporation or partnership in lieu of taxable citizens but I haven't explored whether this would be more beneficial regarding taxation or not. What kind of things are tax deductible - food? clothing? travel? entertainment? Just curious if any one has any ideas about this.

And I've heard if five people want to form a religious organization and pool their resources they can be totally non-taxable if they know the correct ways to report to the feds. Any ideas on this?

[DaveJ]

11. I'm not sure what to think... 'admiration' is not one my first thoughts.

I grew up in the type of family that 'played by the rules' so it's hard for me to admire this lifestyle. I guess some folk' rules are different, but I was taught the value and meaning of money, and that when money is owed it should be payed, in exchange for things like paved streets, police, government services, medical care, etc. Regardless of ethnic origin, some people pay only those they need to pay at a given time, but not what they actually owe, and I doubt these types of people should be admired.

On some philosophical level one could make an argument to the contrary, but most people who live this way are not acting according to any moral principles, just doing what they were taught to do. I'm not looking at this along ethnic or national origins.

[The Straight Story]

15. Put it in terms of bush and friends then

People living above the law, all the while punishing people who don't conform to the most minute of laws.

I side with the little folks living 'outside' the law to eek out a simple existence, because living by the rules never seems to pay off anymore.

I think those here illegally have the right idea at times, and that those in power are threatened by the 'small business' competition they represent.

[DaveJ]

24. They are getting right, no help from BushCo

If I must look at this from an international perspective (which I hate because there is always somebody who will want to correct me) I'll say this: Undocumented immigrants probably have every justification for hating 'the man'. In fact, I think that many of them truly feel in their hearts, that being poor is more respectable, since in their native land, the rich are corrupt assholes like Bush and friends. With Bush in office they hardly feel they've even left their own corrupt governments.

But, whereas they may be in a position where there is nothing to do but live above the law, due to restrictive immigration policies, that is not an admiral position in which to be. I hope they at least try to teach their children that living by the rules can pay off.

There are a lot of problems with the system that prevent people from succeeding despite living by the rules, but that does not give people who have no excuse a reason to cheat the system.

[EFerrari]

18. You don't really believe that undocumented workers

are the only ones who work off of the books, do you?

:shrug:

[The Straight Story]

23. Hell no :)

I know someone here who is a full blooded US citizen that does so, and yet I don't have an issue with it.

Point is, I don't think the people are the real problem, but the government is and how many asinine restrictions it puts on people is the issue.

people here illegally already have a leg up as they already broke one law, so why not others :)

We little folk are expected to obey, while others like bush's buddies and such can always find ways around laws.

Live here legally and don't obey the laws and you face jail and fines. Live here illegally and face being sent back and you can come back later. Live here legally and have money and connections and break the law, then folks in congress will take care of you and help you to make more.

It is us avg folks who try to live by the law and do the right thing that keep getting screwed.

[EFerrari]

27. Yep. Agree.

But also remember, people who work off the books can't really build anything in their SS fund. If someone rips them off, they have no recourse to the law. Gosh, especially people who work for an hourly wage. When I was translating, they used to call immigration busts "the payday express" because sometimes the same guys that hired them turned them in so they wouldn't have to pay them. So long! Enjoy your deportation! It's no way to live.

[noamnety]

29. When you write posts like this it doesn't sound like you side with them.

Siding with them implies a sense of solidarity.

This post is anything but solidarity. It's setting them up as The Other, who's getting away with shit that you can't get away with and you sound darn close to resenting it.

It's you average folks trying to do the right thing (are they not average? are they not trying to do the right thing by making a better life for their kids?) that keep getting screwed.

Seriously, you make it sound like being deported and having to cross the border again - if you can - and having to start over again is winning the lottery compared to the hard life you live of having to pay taxes. I think you need to spend some time contemplating that and what really happens when ICE carries out their raids.

[1]

30. what does it cost to live in america? 20% more than you make...

regardless of where you live...

[Hannah Bell]

32. so if it's so easy, why don't you do the same?

find a bunch of people to live with & start mowing lawns.

someone has to pay rent & utilities, plus the costs of a vehicle, though. plus gas taxes & taxes on stuff they buy.

but you could avoid that for "store credit" in which case the business owner, i guess, works out how the tax on the goods he gives away is fixed.

[The Straight Story]

34. Been thinking about doing just that of late

When I look at how our own elected officials and govt flaunt the law, and others as well, I often wonder why the hell am I towing the line when no one else is?

Those up the chain don't obey the law, and those down the chain don't. So why should I at this point?

Freedom is something a lot of other people are feeling these days, but so many in the middle are not because they have been taught to obey for the good of us all. Give up your rights for the betterment of the country, but don't expect us rule makers to do the same, and don't complain when those who break the rules lower down the rung don't obey the laws.

Why do I bother? When people like bush and folks like those I know here don't bother and both are better off because of their refusal to follow laws?

Do the 'right' thing and get boxed in to a lot of rules which will cost you a lot, break the law and be seen my some as a hero (like bush and crew are to the rw) or been seen as justified in your actions in breaking the law (like those who come here illegally and flaunt other laws as well to avoid license fees, taxes, and so on).

I wanted to do side work here as a security guard, will cost me almost $300 just to be able to work, but if I just offered out my services in cash under the table I could probably find work tomorrow.

The problem is not the people - it is all the damned regulations we place on them.

And I for one actually have a lot of respect for those who stand up to all this over regulation and say screw you and move on and work anyway and make some side money.

Maybe we are all illegals in some ways, just in different ways.

[Muttocracy]

39. Have you seen the Living Wage Calculator?

http://www.livingwage.geog.psu.edu/ - has lots of details, compares to typical wages, easy to get lost on that site!

Their estimate for California is at http://www.livingwage.geog.psu.edu/results.php?location=5
You can also go down to county, and at least where I am, lower levels.

My local credit union does a calc every year or two also. They assume no debt however; paying off student loans and debt from when I was unemployed is making a little less than double their living wage a bit of a struggle.

[Captain Angry]

40. $300 a month for electricity? Holy cow.

I have computers running for at least 16 hours a day in my place, and have a bill under $25.00/month.

Boy you guys are getting screwed.