The Guardian: 'Should Bush be tried for war crimes?'

[Newsjock]

By Dan Kennedy

Should Bush be tried for war crimes?
The chorus demanding George Bush be prosecuted for torture and other constitutional abuses is getting louder

... We are less than a decade removed from impeaching a president and nearly relieving him of office because of a lie in a civil deposition about blowjobs. Yet when congressman Dennis Kucinich recently attempted to impeach Bush over torture, extraordinary rendition and other grotesque constitutional abuses, Kucinich's embarrassed fellow Democrats couldn't kill the measure quickly enough.

Why? Top Democrats are so complicit in what has happened since 9/11 that my guess is they dare not travel down that road. From voting in favor of the war in Iraq to holding the telecommunications companies guiltless for their role in spying on Americans (Barack Obama infuriated much of his progressive base by voting for immunity), the Democrats have often acted more as enablers than as a true opposition party. From their point of view, no doubt it's best to move on.

... Finally, consider that most mild-mannered of liberal pundits, the Times' Nicholas Kristof, who on Sunday actually called for the formation of a truth commission in the manner of post-apartheid South Africa "to lead a process of soul searching and national cleansing".

... But if Bush shouldn't be hanged by the neck until dead, as the ancient pronouncement would have it, he - and we - nevertheless must be called to account for what we have allowed to happen to our country. If we don't, then we are all responsible - if not for what happened, then for what is yet to come.

Read more: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/jul/08/usa.warcrimes

[EFerrari]

1. I hope this gets a thousand votes.

[FourScore]

2. I just gave it another one! n/t

[specimenfred1984]

109. It smears (D)s, it'll get 100s here at Smear Underground

Notice that no post that proves (R)s are criminals ever gets more than 40 recs. Ka-ching!

[bjobotts]

114. Truth and smear are different animals. How can we get Justice when Bush owns our AG?

[Initech]

3. FUCK YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[intheflow]

86. Exactly my reply!

Should have been impeached on March 21, 2003. :grr:

Really should have been impeached on September 12, 2001.

Cheney should have been impeached immediately following his first closed door energy task force meeting in '01. :grr:

[Name removed]

113. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[lutherj]

4. Kick and Rec

[Cleita]

5. Yes, he should be but according to those who can try him,

he shouldn't be. It's off the table.

[jgraz]

10. Congress only tries impeachment, not criminal cases.

Any state AG or district attorney can bring charges against Bush, et al. Hell, for war crimes any country can charge him. And, given the precedent we've set, they can send agents into the US to kidnap him and bring him to trial. Or hold him indefinitely and torture him.

[Cleita]

68. Like I said those who can won't. I wasn't just talking about impeachment,

but it would be a starting point perhaps leading to criminal charges and extradition if the World Court decides to try and convict him. It takes a sovereign nation to file a complaint with the World Court, but I haven't seen any nation that can file a complaint do so. Iraqis who have fled the war and are in exile could form a legitimate government in exile and file charges too.

[dhill926]

6. kicked and rec.......n/t

[Zhade]

7. This is even a question?

I wasn't aware holding criminals accountable for their crimes was up for a vote.

[WritersBlock]

8. Kicked. Commented. Recommended. n/t

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

57. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[StClone]

77. Sorry he won immunity.

This is all a big chummy game don't you know "Survivor". No harm done. Let's all laugh and watch Rove pull another subpoena dodge.

[chaz4jazz]

81. "It's hard work..."

Fort Leavenworth, August 2009. Yesterday, in a rare daytime interview from the road shoulder of US 51, former President George W. Bush (R) spoke candidly about his life sentence after having been convicted in U.S. Distict Court on charges of treason, sedition, fraud, accessory to kidnapping and murder, ordering the deaths of thousands of American military personnel and host of other criminal charges. Mr. Bush, wearing the orange jumpsuit made so famous in photos of enemy combatants in the Middle East, was permitted to speak with this reporter for ten minutes after his lunch break consisting of three peanut and butter sandwiches on white bread. "I love these grape jelly sandwiches," he said and gave his well-known wry smile. Asked how he was faring on after his second month in federal custody Bush replied, "Well, the room they gave me ain't half bad, I mean for a jail cell. I have no roommates, which has an upside. I can finally read during the three hours the lights are on after dinner meal and you know, books are not half bad. I should've read more of them before now, but, you know, being president was a full time job, I mean for me." Bush was working at road repair along with four dozen other federal convicts, including Karl Rove who had been in prison for the past six months. Asked why he didn't ask to room with Mr. Rove, Mr. Bush answered, "Turdie? You joshing me? He sweats too much. I had my fill of Turd Blossom for, what was it? Six years in the White House." Mr. Bush kept fumbling with his work gloves, pulling them off and putting them on, anxious to get back to using his pick-ax. "I thought the presidency was hard work. This is harder. It's not like a photo-op clearing brush back on the ranch. It's hard work. And it never ends."

Mr. Bush was chained up with several other inmates and led down the road the work area. He waved goodbye and in doing so, lost his work glove, but the armed guard that was leading him along refused to stop the procession.

[JPettus]

108. And Job Number one

would be to go into the underground septic tanks at the Air Force academy and sand-blast the fecal matter from the top and walls so that it falls all over him.

Hey, I can dream, can't I?

[jcla]

11. Yes! And Let Us Support D.K.'s impeachment of Bush!

[Kaleko]

12. It takes a British newspaper to point out the terribly obvious...

Truly boggles the mind how brainwashed this nation has become.

[HomerRamone]

26. The author is a Bostonian.

Dan Kennedy used to be media critic for the weekly Boston Phoenix. He is a regular on the local public television program "Beat The Press" (which had the title before Dan Abrams started a segment by that name). Go Dan!

[Rosa Luxemburg]

111. have Boston papers published this topic?

[Sherman A1]

13. K&R

To The Hague!

[Solly Mack]

14. I sometimes think people don't really understand the price we will pay for not

holding them accountable

that they believe it will somehow, magically, be ok in a few years

then I'm reminded of the conveniently adaptable memories of the comfortable

[deacon]

15. 35th of hopefully 1000 recommendations n/t

[MissDeeds]

16. 40th recommendation

I'll keep my fingers crossed, but honestly, I'm so disillusioned by what's been allowed to transpire, I don't hold out much hope. The only way the despots are going to be brought to justice is if a world court demands it. The Democratic leadership is worthless, spineless, and complicit by their unwillingness to impeach. It's a disgrace.

[Pavulon]

17. In REALITY

a us president, sitting or former will never be tried for any action related to a war funded and supported by many congresses, including the current one.

It is a fun idea, like space camp, but is not realistic, and will never happen.

[billyoc]

19. Never be tried HERE, but there are still countries that respect the rule of law.

[mod mom]

31. What about secret torture camps & Gitmo?

If the world held Nazi Germany liable the same should be true for *

[RaleighNCDUer]

43. That's just the point.

The WORLD held Nazi Germany liable - Nazi Germany did not hold Nazi Germany liable.

It is barely possible - but highly unlikely - that an up-coming administration will hold Bush liable, but he has too many accomplices sitting in the congress for that to go forward.

We have made the US an international pariah - a terrorist state - and Bush will get off scott free as long as he stays IN the US. Maybe, ten years after leaving office, he will get careless and take a little trip overseas - look into family holdings in Paraguay, or something - and find out he got himself a one-way ticket to The Hague.

[mod mom]

45. I have to think other South American leaders (Chavez comes to mind) would never be

comfortable with criminal bu$h on the same continent especially sitting on top of South America's largest Aquifer. It's no wonder * has been helping fund Blackwater and other mercenariesimho

[Cleita]

69. On the other hand, Bush shouldn't feel comfortable on the same

Continent with Chavez and others who aren't delighted with him.

[zonmoy]

58. Too many indeed.

far as I am concerned the only non accomplice congressmen are the ones that supported Kucinich in his attempts to impeach bush.

[redqueen]

41. "a fun idea, like space camp"

These crimes have resulted in the deaths of millions.

You're... yeah.

[20score]

18. Should Bush be tried for war crimes?

Um...Yes!

[rambler_american]

20. Should Bush be tried for war crimes?

DUH!

[mwb970]

21. We need new Democrats.

The current "opposition party" steadfastly, vehemently refuses to oppose. Let's ditch them and get real progressives that will take this country where the people want it to go, instead of kowtowing to the damn right-wingnuts and corporations at every turn.

America is crying out for help. The current group of Democrats is incapable of helping us. Let's lose 'em.

[sourmilk]

22. Since the ICC sems powerless to prosecute...

Every nation in the world has an obligation to indict the entire BFEE. If they can't go anywhere, there may be a limit to the amount of trouble they can cause in the post Fourth Reich Bush years...

[WinkyDink]

102. Aren't they going to Uruguay?

[sourmilk]

115. Paraguay, apparently.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/oct/23/mainsection.tomphillips

"Meeting the new couple next door can be an anxious business for even the most relaxed home owner. Will they be international drug traffickers? Have they got noisy kids with a penchant for electronic music? As worries go, however, having the US president move in next door must come fairly low on the list.
Unless of course you are a resident of northern Paraguay and believe reports in the South American press that he has bought up a 100,000 acre (40,500 hectare) ranch in your neck of the woods.
...
Last week the Paraguayan news group Neike suggested that Ms Bush was in Paraguay to "visit the land acquired by her father - relatively close to the Brazilian Pantanal and the Bolivian gas reserves".

The US presence in Paraguay has been under scrutiny since May 2005 when the country's Congress agreed to allow 400 American marines to operate there for 18 months in exchange for financial aid.

At the time many viewed the arrival of troops as a sign that Washington was trying to monitor US business interests in neighbouring Bolivia, after the election of Evo Morales, a leftwing leader who promised to nationalise his country's natural gas industry."


YIKES! There goes the neighbourhood!!!

[Doc Martin]

23. Encourage people to watch the movie "Rendition"

Educating others by showing (not intellectual argument) could build wider and louder cries for civil prosecution of Bush and Cheney.

[Larkspur]

42. Is it out in DVD yet?

[madokie]

24. I say he will be with or without the support of the united states

[malaise]

25. K & R for justice n/t

[pleah]

27. K&R!

A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.
- Edward R. Murrow








To sin by silence when they should protest makes cowards of men.
- Abraham Lincoln
_________________________________

[Prophet 451]

28. Absolutely, he should be charged

If CheneyBush believe what they've done to be justified, then give them their day in court and let them justify it.

[kmac3]

29. It should be automatic . . . .

:kick:The thought of his leaving office with all of his gained wealth to enjoy life to a ripe old age is absolutely sickening. Unfortunately because of the attitude and spineless nature of our Congress it will probably happen. Our only hope is that another Nation with a conscience will take it to task.

[Dystopian]

30. K&R!

I want to believe in God again before I die.


peace~

[Phred42]

32. Is this a trick question?

:rofl:

[TheWatcher]

33. Should Godiva Chocolate Be Enjoyed?

What's disturbing is that this question even needs to be asked.

He belongs in a Windowless Cell with no light, for the rest of his irrelevant waste of a life.

[fascisthunter]

34. K&R

[Echo In Light]

35. K&R

[NBachers]

36. I like the comment about the Vichy Democrats

but what's the chance that the people who won't even pass a strong FISA accountability bill will demand accountability from the Bush Administration?

[spanone]

37. this should be in the nytimes, wapo, msnbc...but no it's a british paper

[proReality]

38. K&R n/t

[Lucky 13]

39. I'm embarrased that it takes a foreign news source to report what our media refuses to.

I am DISGUSTED by my country. It has been hijacked by liars, thieves, war profiteers, tyrants, fascists and war criminals. And those we THOUGHT would fight the good fight against these evil forces are just as complicit in all of this as the Republicans are. And our media is no longer anything resembling journalism, but a more a system of propaganda dissemination.

Our phone calls, letters, and emails to our representatives go unanswered. Our protests are buried by the press and IGNORED by Washington.

What is there left to do that we haven't already done? I can think of only one thing... revolution.

[paparush]

44. It always does these days..

[redqueen]

40. YES!

Damn right he should... him and all his war profiteering buddies, too!

[cyberpj]

46. Does a wild bear.... Is the Pope...

Oh HELL yes. And International Courts be damned - An Intelligent World should step up to the plate because ignorant, self-interested Americans won't.

[cliffordu]

47. Why are there so many 'good germans' in Congress??

Guilt by association?? Dirty hands?

[Overseas]

48. K&R -- and yes I guess it is that our representatives have been blackmailed by their own complicity.

[tularetom]

49. I would have recommended this sooner

but I had some stuff to do outside before it heats up to like 112 later today.

[Duval]

50. K&R n/t

[helderheid]

51. rec 137

[Hydra]

52. Happy to be Rec 136

This part was telling, though:

Lawrence Velvel, Gitell notes, wrote last month that his model was the Nuremberg trials held after second world war. Velvel went so far as to say that "we must insist on appropriate punishments, including, if guilt is found, the hangings visited upon top Germans and Japanese." Oh, my.

Though I found Velvel's apparently earnest quest as ridiculous as Gitell did, the idea of holding our leaders accountable for the crimes and constitutional violations of the past seven and a half years isn't ridiculous in the least.

If we were so very "just" back then, the same should apply to Bush- Guilty = Hanged.

I suppose I should be happy- the whole Nuremberg incident stank of show trial, and I wondered if I'd ever have proof of it. The fact that we won't hold ourselves to the same standards proves it in a way nothing else could.

Those standards are for our defeated enemies, not us.

[Summer93]

53. Should Bush be tried for war crimes?

Should Bush be tried for war crimes? Answer is YES!

[Kermitt Gribble]

54. Glad to see this printed in a foreign paper.

If more countries get behind this, we won't have to rely on our joke of a congress to prosecute this regime.

[KaryninMiami]

55. Excellent - K&R

[Lugnut]

56. K&R n/t

[wildbilln864]

59. not yes....

but HELL yes! :banghead:

[ooglymoogly]

60. Kr....sadly neither of the presidential candidates will put this right.

[wildbilln864]

105. I hate saying it....

but I fear you're right. Obama has dissapointed me today.

[bdamomma]

61. A BIG YES.

he needs to be slapped down.

[The Blue Flower]

62. One word

Eichmann

[dccrossman]

63. Hell yes

K&R

[bean fidhleir]

64. K&R

[mdmc]

65. Would holding Bush accountable help or hurt Obama this fall?

Isn't that all that matters.

[Cleita]

70. I'm sure it would help. A general

housecleaning in Congress in November by voting in some new faces over the same old neo-cons would definitely help him.

[EFerrari]

79. Repeating Bush's failures over and over between now and November

can't help McMore. :shrug:

[Name removed]

66. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[vanboggie]

67. K&R #168

...and a resounding Hallelujah! Put the Chimp 'n Cheney on trial. Maybe a free country could do it.

On edit: Saddam the bastards!!!

[AntiFascist]

71. K&R n/t

[katty]

72. WHY is this still a ?????!!!!

[Pacifist Patriot]

73. To quote my kid, "DUH!"

[Martin Eden]

74. Nancy Pelosi -- are you paying attention?

It irks me no end that a Democratic Speaker of the House (and the first Woman Speaker ever) would be a major roadblock to upholding the Constitution and bringing a criminal Republican administration to justice.

[StClone]

75. All the infamous glory and wealth none of the responsibility

I got to get me some of that Presidential bullshit. Yeah I can play the bungling incompetent and make cool cash without guilt or remorse.

[Vinca]

76. So I guess this is all over CNN and MSNBC . . . right?

:sarcasm:

[stimbox]

78. HELLS YEAH!!!! Put all of the war criminals and their collaborators on trial. n/t

[heliarc]

80. RESOUNDING YES! nt

[Iwillnevergiveup]

82. ABSOLUTAMENTE!

K&R #199

[ArbustoBuster]

83. His actions definitely appear to be war crimes.

A trial is called for. This seems self-evident to me. However, I doubt it will ever happen and that depresses me.

[ihavenobias]

84. K & R

[Fox Mulder]

85. Absolutely!

K & R!

[jeff30997]

87. You bet he should!!!

With Hitler,Stalin and Mao He's the worst thing to ever happen to humankind!

[AmyCamus]

88. If Obama says No, all Democrats should say No.

If the party doesn't follow the leader, he's just a guy out for a walk.

[MisterP]

91. why should the say no to what's right? that's just unrefined authoritarianism n/t

[AmyCamus]

92. Why have a party leader if no one will follow him?

He says no impeachment. That should be the final word. Let's move on.

[MisterP]

98. because neither the country nor the party is a monarchy: we decided that in 1775

even a Duce is mortal and, thus, fallible: one might as well ask why we have a President if we do not obey his every whim

[The_Casual_Observer]

89. For the sake of the future & that it doesn't happen again this way, it's

necessary do it.

[salguine]

90. The only thing to do is clear every last member of Congress out of office. If it's not

an election year, recall them. Just get them out. Every last one, all 535 of them.

[windoe]

93. If the whole world could vote, what would that # be??!!!

BILLIONS??

[eowyn_of_rohan]

94. Wow. Every American should hear this, again and again

until it sinks in.

[Vidar]

95. Highly recommended.

[Seldona]

96. K & R

How any republican can claim they believe in the rule of law and not want justice for abuses of the highest powers in the land is beyond me. The Authoritarian Personality would be facinating, if it were not so damned evil...


*spelling

[clovis29]

97. Not worth our time studying

K&R

[Seldona]

100. Having wasted that time studying them, I have to disagree.

There are two types really, and one is not lost. They are capable of seeing reason on a case by case basis. I have more than a few of these former right-wing friends and acquaintances myself who are now strong Democratic supporters. If we all did this, knowing the right approach to take, we would sweep the other side away in unprecedented numbers. Just my two cents worth. Probably worth about as much too...

Here is a free online book, Bob Altemeyer's - The Authoritarians, that I highly recommend to anyone interested, and having the time to 'waste', in understanding why so many Americans are capable of believing the fallacies necessary to have a right wing stance. Not to mention how many of them can actually change their views.

http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~altemey/

-snip-

OK, what’s this book about? It’s about what’s happened to the American government lately. It’s about the disastrous decisions that government has made. It’s about the corruption that rotted the Congress. It’s about how traditional conservatism has nearly been destroyed by authoritarianism. It’s about how the “Religious Right” teamed up with amoral authoritarian leaders to push its un-democratic agenda onto the country. It’s about the United States standing at the crossroads as the next federal election approaches.

“Well,” you might be thinking, “I don’t believe any of this is true.” Or maybe you’re thinking, “What else is new? I’ve believed this for years.” Why should a conservative, moderate, or liberal bother with this book? Why should any Republican, Independent, or Democrat click the “Introduction” link on this page?

Because if you do, you’ll begin an easy-ride journey through some relevant scientific studies I have done on authoritarian personalities--one that will take you a heck of a lot less time than the decades it took me. Those studies have a direct bearing on all the topics mentioned above. So if you think the first paragraph is a lot of hokum, or full of half-truths, I invite you to look at the research.

-snip-

For example, take the following statement: “Once our government leaders and the authorities condemn the dangerous elements in our society, it will be the duty of every patriotic citizen to help stomp out the rot that is poisoning our country from within.” Sounds like something Hitler would say, right? Want to guess how many politicians, how many lawmakers in the United States agreed with it? Want to guess what they had in common?

-snip

Seems pretty relevant to me. Just saying... It's FREE for goodness sake!

[chill_wind]

99. "If we don't come to terms with what happened,

there's little chance of reversing our slide into authoritarianism."

I couldn't agree more.

And with this:


"But if Bush shouldn't be hanged by the neck until dead, as the ancient pronouncement would have it, he - and we - nevertheless must be called to account for what we have allowed to happen to our country. If we don't, then we are all responsible - if not for what happened, then for what is yet to come."

Our Congress are facilitors. And if we don't heave them out, every last proto-fascist pol among them, then we are, and will remain, facilitators as a people. In fact many in our everyday populace have already chosen to be.

We are a nation in deep, deep trouble.

Facilitating Fascism
J'accuse


by Zbignew Zingh

copyleft 2006

What kind of doctors has the United States trained who stand by idly while prison guards force-feed prisoners in Guantanamo Bay with plastic pipes shoved down the noses of the shackled and tortured?

What kind of psychologists have we educated who assist the Pentagon inventing new ways to torture men and women, breaking their minds without breaking their skin; who help create government propaganda, plant false news stories, devise “psy-ops” to mislead us all?

What kind of lawyers are these who work for the Department of “Justice”, the “Defense” Department, the Pentagon or the White House, who waste their careers finding legal loop-holes justifying torture, deceit, eavesdropping and imprisonment without charge?

What manner of scientists, hardware and software engineers have we graduated who dedicate their intelligence and creativity to devising deadlier weapons, more secretive ways to snoop, and more innovative ways to kill?

(...)

full text: http://www.ersarts.com/cgi-bin/pikie/ersarts/ersarts.py?FacilitatingFascism

K & R

[DailyGrind51]

101. Trial? No, just ship him off to Gitmo for a taste of his medicine!

[BeHereNow]

103. According to Bugliosi... prosecuted for MURDER

Proud to be #264 in recommending and kicking.
BHN

[Newsjock]

104. Just four hours till this falls off the Greatest Page

... by virtue of being 24 hours old. How many recs will it get? (And what's the record?) :)

[The Backlash Cometh]

106. Now more than ever.

[baldguy]

107. Make a case NOT to try him.

If his apologists don't succeed, pack his & his accomplices off to The Hague.

[chknltl]

110. Tar n Feather the lot of 'em

Well except Rove...he should be placed in those stocks thingys first with barrals of rotten tomatoes nearby.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

112. K&R.