***OFFICIAL FISA THREAD 4 *** (Specter's amendment (I think) up for vote)

[gateley]

Here's 3

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=3587163&mesg_id=3587163

[robinlynne]

1. Our nation is screwn.

[helderheid]

44. Hughly. Rec 4

[redirish28]

2. I'm nervous.

[gateley]

7. If all the amendments are defeated, we have reason to be nervous.

Our reps don't care about what's right or wrong.

[davidwparker]

62. not true. only those deemed "electable" have a problem with right and

wrong.

Kucinich does, but he's too short. Sheehan does, but she dares run against Queen Vichy, Nancy Pelosi.

We get what we put in office. Good thing people didn't know FDR was in a wheel chair.

[Muttocracy]

3. yep, Specter amdmt. nt

[Breeze54]

4. Reading of names ....

This sucks!! :grr:

[LSK]

5. I just started thread 4?

:shrug:

[Muttocracy]

8. I think they started the same time - sure gateley wasn't trying to diss you. nt

[LSK]

10. no problem, deleted mine

[gateley]

12. EDIT -- just saw you deleted yours.

Again - sorry I didn't know you'd taken care of it. :pals:

[LSK]

16. no, lets stay here

:hi:

[redirish28]

6. This amendment would give telecom immunity or take it out. I'm confused

sorry.

[Crabby Appleton]

22. neither

Specter Amendment #5059 - allows broader court review

[redirish28]

96. Thanks...

[gateley]

9. Biden, Cantwell, Leahy, AYE

[Muttocracy]

11. so is the take that this is better than not having it - at least some restrictions? nt

[Breeze54]

19. I think it's moot... The AG can dismiss any lawsuits he see's fit.

But I may have that wrong... I'd have to read it again.

[kentuck]

13. They would rather be called weak on the Constitution than weak on defense...

in the next election. After all, the Constitution is not a "suicide pact", they will say...

[slipslidingaway]

23. That about sums it up :(( n/t

[gateley]

25. Heavy and profound and accurate statement. I'm so disgusted. nt

[thewiseguy]

14. This wont pass either. Lots of No votes.

[slipslidingaway]

15. Specter amendment....text below

S.AMDT.5059 Amendment SA 5059 proposed by Senator Specter.

To limit retroactive immunity for providing assistance to the United States to instances in which a Federal court determines the assistance was provided in connection with an intelligence activity that was constitutional.

[slipslidingaway]

17. Bingaman amendment next....text below

S.AMDT.5066 Amendment SA 5066 proposed by Senator Bingaman.

To stay pending cases against certain telecommunications companies and provide that such companies may not seek retroactive immunity until 90 days after the date the final report of the Inspectors General on the President's Surveillance Program is submitted to Congress.

[Muttocracy]

20. so is this immunity on civil, criminal, or both? nt

[Jersey Devil]

24. civil immunity only(nt)

[Muttocracy]

26. thanks - moot now that it failed. nt

[slipslidingaway]

32. Civil, criminal immunity was NEVER proposed n/t

[AZ Criminal JD]

97. They don't need criminal immunity

[slipslidingaway]

110. True, who will charge them with a crime :( n/t

[LSK]

21. so if a court approved the wiretapping then no lawsuits???

:shrug:

[Breeze54]

30. The Retroactive Immunity Amendment didn't pass.

Those people were spied on without warrants. The AG will now just toss them out.

[slipslidingaway]

54. Attempts to limit immunity....

To limit retroactive immunity for providing assistance to the United States to instances in which a Federal court determines the assistance was provided in connection with an intelligence activity that was constitutional.


http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2008/07/03/al_haramain/index.html

"A Bush-41-appointed Federal District Judge yesterday became the third judge -- out of three who have ruled on the issue -- to reject the Bush administration's claim that Article II entitles the President to override or ignore the provisions of FISA. Yesterday's decision by Judge Vaughn Walker of the Northern District of California also guts the central claims for telecom immunity and gives the lie to the excuses coming from Congress as to why the new FISA bill is some sort of important "concession." More than anything else, this decision is but the most recent demonstration that, with this new FISA bill, our political establishment is doing what it now habitually does: namely, ensuring that the political and corporate elite who break our laws on purpose are immune from consequences.

[Jersey Devil]

18. Feinstein "no" (nt)

[Jersey Devil]

27. final vote 37-61

[gateley]

28. ANyone know about this next amendment that's coming up for a vote? nt

[Muttocracy]

31. slipsliding's post above. nt

[gateley]

46. Thx. nt

[Jersey Devil]

Bingaman, co-sponsored by Feinstein

[gateley]

48. Feinstein's name on it makes me nervous. nt

[Crabby Appleton]

39. Bingaman Amendment #5066

Bingaman Amendment #5066 - delays immunity until completion of IG report. (60-vote threshold)

[Breeze54]

41. This Amdt allows the Telecoms to go into CT & get cases dismissed & then investigate. bassackwards!

:eyes:

[gateley]

49. God. Thanks. nt

[LSK]

29. did Obama vote on this one?

[Muttocracy]

34. must have - only McCain and Kennedy missing at 98 total? nt

[SharonRB]

35. He voted aye.

[thewiseguy]

37. With the 61-37 count, yes he did.

[kentuck]

38. I think I heard an "aye" vote for Obama on this Amendment..

I hope he stands up for the Constitution all the way.

[SharonRB]

33. What?

Feinstein wants to be added as a co-sponsor to Bingaman's amendment?

[redirish28]

36. So the bill of rights will offically die today.....

[Muttocracy]

well, one amendment at a time but this one will help kill # 1

[redirish28]

56. Didn't the Military commisions act of 2006 kill the other 9?

That was my understanding of that bill....

Sorry if I am wrong.

[Muttocracy]

58. oh, you're probably right, I haven't paid enough attention until recently. nt

[LSK]

45. its been slowly dying for 7 years now...

[redqueen]

57. Yup... this is just the latest whack at it.

I'm sure there will be more.

[LSK]

40. Bingaman wants the current investigations to continue

And postpones the immunity.

[SharonRB]

42. This, too, would be better than nothing

Maybe they can get this one to pass.

[gateley]

43. These Senators for the most part obviously didn't attend Catholic school.

The nuns at Sacred Heart Villa would have dragged them out of the room by now for their deportment. (I know from experience.)

[Muttocracy]

47. isn't there a Senate Whip somewhere? kidding... nt

[gateley]

51. A ruler and a woman draped in a habit with a rustling rosary is all that's needed. nt

[Muttocracy]

53. ...

:scared:

edit to note - think I had a Biden sighting - his good posture does stand out :D

[gateley]

59. Was he standing next to a tall, black skinny guy? :-)

[Muttocracy]

65. no - actually, Obama is another one I can pick out of the crowd, but not due to clothing! nt

[pleah]

50. 5th rec. Vote on 3rd amendment up now.

[Muttocracy]

52. why can't c-span get a vote ticker at the bottom like they do sports scores? nt

[gateley]

55. That's one of the worthy recipients to whom I would send $$$ if I had any.

Their technology is abysmal.

[MadrasT]

61. We want a vote ticker!!!

So we know more quickly that our Constitution has been destroyed.

Damn it.

[Muttocracy]

64. We need some gimmick to get more people to pay attention - I'm reaching here. nt

[LSK]

66. I think the House has one

[LSK]

60. Obama Aye on this one???

I thought I heard a yes but it was low.

[LSK]

68. Yes he did, as did Clinton and Webb

[Muttocracy]

63. roll call results of Dodd amdt vote already up

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/vote_menu_110_2.htm

thanks to whoever posted that link earlier!

[MadrasT]

67. self delete (oops)

[gateley]

69. Thanks! nt

[slipslidingaway]

78. That was quick...

and you're welcome.

[Muttocracy]

81. you again! you're on top of this - very helpful! :)

[slipslidingaway]

I try :) n/t

[bdamomma]

70. hey everyone what is going on with the votes???

do we have a chance or should we bring out the pitchforks and torches, because these Senators just do not care about the Constitution. This is not a compromise it is a cave in.

[Muttocracy]

72. they're almost done. Lieberman no, McCaskill no.

[SharonRB]

74. Lieberman "no"

Of course.

[Muttocracy]

79. thanks - I mistook him not voting no yet for voting yes and heard it right as it posted.

[notadmblnd]

75. lieberman voted no

[slipslidingaway]

73. We need the pitchforks and torches :( n/t

[MadrasT]

77. Flamethrowers would be more appropriate.

[pleah]

82. I'll bring the tar and feathers!

:evilgrin:



A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.
- Edward R. Murrow





To sin by silence when they should protest makes cowards of men.
- Abraham Lincoln
_________________________________

[Muttocracy]

91. that's going to be an expensive big batch of tar! nt

[redirish28]

71. Only two that didn't vote in the first Amendment was McCain and Kennedy

[kentuck]

76. And we wondered why the Germans followed Hitler ??

Out of fear, just like this Senate. Yes! I compared them to Hitler's Nazis! Because the similarity is undeniable.

[slipslidingaway]

87. Fascist America, in 10 easy steps - Naomi Wolf

You reminded me of this...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3585104

"Set up an internal surveillance system

In Mussolini's Italy, in Nazi Germany, in communist East Germany, in communist China - in every closed society - secret police spy on ordinary people and encourage neighbours to spy on neighbours. The Stasi needed to keep only a minority of East Germans under surveillance to convince a majority that they themselves were being watched.

In 2005 and 2006, when James Risen and Eric Lichtblau wrote in the New York Times about a secret state programme to wiretap citizens' phones, read their emails and follow international financial transactions, it became clear to ordinary Americans that they, too, could be under state scrutiny.

In closed societies, this surveillance is cast as being about "national security"; the true function is to keep citizens docile and inhibit their activism and dissent...."

[redqueen]

93. Thanks for posting that here.

*sigh*

[slipslidingaway]

104. YW, the thread from last night could use a K&R...

hate to beg, but...I will.

:blush:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3585104

[redqueen]

106. No need to beg!

If I'd have seen it, I'd have been kicking it all morning.

Thanks for the tip. :)

[slipslidingaway]

108. And thank you, I'll add the video link as well for those who have

not seen her speak on the issue.

[bdamomma]

103. we must not let them do this to us.

[slipslidingaway]

107. But they are, one important point IMO that Naomi made during

her talk was that the shift does not occur in a straight line.

There are sudden shifts and then a period of inaction before more rights are taken away, also that the final moves come quickly.

[bdamomma]

so I guess that makes us the "Good Americans"

[SharonRB]

80. Anyone know how many "ayes" we've got?

[gateley]

86. It was just defeated. nt

[SharonRB]

89. Yup -- I heard

Only 42 ayes.

[gateley]

94. It's so discouraging. nt

[Jersey Devil]

83. Bingamen/Feingold fails 42-56

[LSK]

84. strike 3 on the amendments, break for lunch and Helms funeral

[Muttocracy]

85. so vote on the whole bill (no amendments) delayed to 2:15 due to Helms funeral and repub caucus. nt

[Muttocracy]

88. Forget it. I'm going to listen to the SFRC hearing on Iran instead. nt

[gateley]

92. Me, too - thanks for the reminder! Should be informative and interesting! nt

[Muttocracy]

95. here's the link - hoping they do livestream there as usual.

from committe home page http://foreign.senate.gov/index.html

archive should show up here (has name of panelist too)
http://foreign.senate.gov/hearings/2008/hrg080709p.html

[gateley]

98. Thanks -- I just PM'd you asking for it -- so ignore! nt WAVE

[Muttocracy]

102. pasted the wrong link - use the committee page one this afternoon (2:30?)

[slipslidingaway]

99. Thanks for the link and there might be some useful information

in this link as well...or there might not be.

:)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=308x699

[Muttocracy]

100. corrected my link - had the future archive - live will be off committe page

[slipslidingaway]

Thanks :) n/t

[gateley]

90. Gee. Wonder how that vote will go *voice dripping with sarcasm*

[Breeze54]

101. I'm waiting in suspense.

:sarcasm:

I DO want to see how the Dems vote on it though...

[bdamomma]

105. hey breeze54!!

sickening, we are seeing them dismantle the Constitution right before our eyes, they should not get away with this.

[gateley]

114. Especially Obama since he said he'd be voting for it --

I'm curious as to whether the uproar his statement caused will cause him to actually vote 'no'.

REQUIRED DISCLAIMER -- not a criticism on Obama, merely an objective curiosity.

[kentuck]

109. So I ask you ??

What good would 60 Democratic votes be?

[bdamomma]

111. what is going on with the votes.

[Muttocracy]

112. delay for Helms memorial

assuming they're not flying all the GOPers to N.C. so it must be a memorial in D.C.?

Think they start back up some time after 2.

I'll be watching SFRC hearing on Iran at 2:30 myself!

[Razoor]

113. back with coverage on c-span 2

n/t