Say it aint so, O.

[rudy23]

I'm relieved that you vote against immunity. Relieved, but not impressed. Voting for immunity when you know it's going to fail is not leadership.

We were promised a filibuster.

We were promised that the politics of 9/11 would not be used as a bludgeon to gouge our rights as free citizens.

As nominee, you are now the de facto leader of the Democratic party. You are perhaps the greatest orator that many of us have ever heard. You sat in silence as our freedom and our privacy were stripped away from us.

Immunity for spying on American citizens isn't an issue of left, right, or center. It's a matter of our status as free people. We have lost much of that freedom today. And you sat back and did next to nothing, in the interest of old style politics that have cost us the last two presidential elections.

Many Senators, some who've held office for decades, showed more fire, passion, and determination in preserving our freedom, and fighting the "old" style of politics than you have. If you want to convince us that you will bring us "change we can believe in", you're going to have to be a little more bold than say, Harry Reid.

If there is a good reason to stay silent on this bill, at least you could explain your stance to your base, that has been the heart and soul of your candidacy. If you want to use the anger from your base to try and prove yourself to the rest of the country, then fine. I may still vote for you, but I'm keeping my money, keeping my spare time, and keeping my energy in convincing my undecided friends and family to myself.

I am not a member of any fringe group, lumped under a cute term like, "netroots". I am an intelligent person who paid attention in Civics and American History class, who knows how to use a computer. There may not be many of us, but people actually do respect my informed opinion, and look to me to explain complicated events of the day. We may be small in number, but we are "alpha-consumers" of political information, and it is a matter of time before the message gets out that this campaign is built on a false representation of revolution, and you find that that intangible "force" that's been getting people so excited about this campaign will have vanished in the blink of an eye.

Just like our right to privacy and freedom has today, while you stood on the sidelines.

[Buzz Clik]

1. Jesus Christ. Another in the infinite series of these threads.

the hide thread button is right here...

[rudy23]

3. I'm sorry, did I miss a speech, or procedural move that Obama made?

All I heard was a weak statement, and a vote. What do you think would've happened if Obama had spoken out as forcefully as, say, Chris Dodd?

[Buzz Clik]

5. No, but apparently you missed the other 300+ fucking threads on the same goddam subject.

And you added what new insight?

Not a fucking thing.

Thank you so much.

[johnlal]

16. I guess you didn't find that "hide thread button" n/t

[Buzz Clik]

17. "hide thread" works only part of the time.

"Ignore" works far more consistently. Let me demonstrate:

[John Q. Citizen]

24. I think there are a lot of folks who are disappointed in Obama. And they are expressing that. If

that bothers you perhaps you need to quit clicking on those threads.

You are welcome.

[Buzz Clik]

29. I didn't say "thank you", nor would I.

And, yeah, we get the idea that a certain group of people are disappointed with Obama. People who never quit expressing their disappointment. People who, despite 300 other threads on exactly the same subject, can't seem to muster the self discipline to prevent them from putting up yet another thread offering exactly the same criticisms.

Or maybe you think 300 threads intiated to criticize Obama on FISA isn't enough?

And in terms of your unsolicited advice about which threads I click on and which ones I don't, I strongly suggest you simply mind your own affairs. Surely you could find some aspects of your life that require enough attention that you could busy yourself and avoid meddling in the habits of others.

[John Q. Citizen]

39. I'm starting to think you hate Obama critics more than you love Obama. That's Ok.

It's your feelings, after all.

[LVjinx]

59. If you want to whine about the threads you click on, don't be surprised if someone calls you on it

[Buzz Clik]

70. What is this bullshit? You're denying the right to criticize a thread?

When hell freezes over. Toughen up and take what's coming.

[madmom]

73. Just like you criticizing the right to make another thread! Don't like it..don't read it!

[Buzz Clik]

78. That's not how it works. I'll pass on that advice.

[madmom]

84. So you have a right to criticize but nobody else does, I see!

[Buzz Clik]

86. No, sweetie. The opposite is happening here. You're telling me to go away.

[madmom]

88. I said no such thing, YOU criticized the op because YOU didn't like it, I said ...

if you don't like it don't read it. Why are you allowed to criticize but nobody else can.No where did I tell you to go away.

EDITED: because I forgot to add SWEETIE!

[Buzz Clik]

91. Well, cupcake, sometimes we can just can't help reading the posts on a bulletin board.

Ya know, it's kinda the function of the thing.

If you don't like my comments, well, you can avoid them or not. But, I don't duck criticism. It's part of the package: if you're too weak to accept harsh comments about the things you post, then don't post.

I'll be here.

[madmom]

98. Well first of all lemon drop, I didn't post it, and yes reading the posts are

your choice as well as criticizing it, but along with your right to criticize them, comes their right to criticize you, like it or not.

[Buzz Clik]

99. To put it bluntly: Asking me to quit reading threads is pissing in the wind.

You're wasting your time as well as mine.

[madmom]

100. I'm not asking you to do anything, just saying that if you have a right to criticize, so does he!

[Buzz Clik]

101. Yes, but he certainly told me to quit clicking on the links.

If you defend his comments, you embrace his notions ... until you distance yourself from them. Taking lessons from John, McCain, I guess.

[madmom]

102. I'm not necessarily defending his comments, just his right to make them.

[Buzz Clik]

103. In other words, you're just arguing.

[madmom]

108. Yes arguing the right of freedom of speech, which criticism is part of and you seem to have a

problem with if you don't like the message.

[Buzz Clik]

109. LOL! I can't top that for pure silliness.

How could I possibly suppress his freedom of speech?

You get the last word.

[madmom]

110. You are the one arguing that there should be no more threads about this

particular subject, I'm simply saying he has the right to make a thread on any subject he sees fit whether you like it/want to read it or not! AKA.. freedom of speech! It's that simple.

[Bandit]

67. Three hundred threads...maybe you aren't being quite truthful..sort of like Obama

Maybe it is just such scorn for the truth that is showing it's ugly face...Maybe that is one reason there are a lot of threads expressing disappointment with Obama. I won't put a number to them because I don't know and I am fairly certain you don't either..

[Buzz Clik]

69. And maybe you just revealed something about yourself.

I'm surprised you didn't run the search prior to calling me a liar.

Here's the screen shot of the search I ran 5 minutes ago:



That's right -- over the past month, the number of threads exploded past 300 to nearly 500. During July alone, the number is 214 threads. Over the past two weeks, it's 319. 100 threads dedicated to FISA+Obama in the last 48 hours. Get it? YOU WERE DEAD WRONG!

You called me a liar, but you were full of shit. What does that make you? What does that do to your empty arguments?

I'll be waiting for your apology.

[Fire Walk With Me]

58. Protesting is patriotic.

[Buzz Clik]

92. Yep. So is counter-protesting.

:shrug:

[Fire Walk With Me]

96. True dat!

[still_one]

10. Maybe you haven't being paying attention, but the country has turned far right

It has been helped along by the MSM, apethetic voters, and even by some Democrats themselves

We are at the cross roads right now where if we don't win, you can kiss the Supreme Court, healthcare, social security, education, the environment, and very likely the republic goodbye

Yes, everything Obama does may not be ideal, but it is a narrow tightrope, and the American Citizens have demonstrated exactly how poor their judgement these past 8 years

The MSM as it is have constantly been misrepresenting his speeches and positions

Right now the most important thing is to win

After that I will hold their feet to the fire

[TooBigaTent]

12. Exactly how will you "hold their feet to the fire" once November has passed and they

no longer need your vote or dollars?

[John Q. Citizen]

25. They won't. Most of the people upset because people feel disappointed by Obama don't even

bother to knock on doors or make calls for Obama.

The extent of their "help" is mostly bashing on voters who feel Obama shouldn't have switched his position on this issue.

They think it helps Obama to bash on voters. That's how much they know.

[johnlal]

13. That's what we said in 2006

And we won a majority in both houses of Congress. How did we hold their feet to the fire? We didn't.

[highprincipleswork]

56. Looking for a leader - not far right

The country is looking for a leader, or more than one. Just as always.

And our leaders, the ones that call themselves progressive, are doing a woefully inadequate job.

When people come out to hear Senator Obama, looking for a change, does that mean they are asking for a swing to the right? I don't think so. And neither do all the polls that show a majority of people wanting to get out of iraq now, acknowledging that it was a mistake in the first place, and even wishing for impeachment!!!

When people got down on Obama for "just words", it was wrong - because words are what a leader has to marshall followers. Words and actions.

Sadly, both of these were missing on this FISA issue, even though the principles at stake were great - far greater than just whether or not telecom companies get punished. We are talking about cases where a Federal judge ruled just last week that the president had not "inherent power" to move beyond FISA. According to many, that means that felonies were actually committed, and now they have been essentially pardoned by this Democratic Congress.

Quite frankly, that is insane.

There are a lot of insane rules going around the country these days. Such as the thought that Republicans are stronger against terrorists, when the worst terrorist disaster in history happened on their watch and with enough information available to stop or hinder it. Such as the thought that you can pay no taxes and still get the services that you wish for, like good roads, stable bridges, a police department, a fire department, schools, etc. And also such as the thought that you win elections by "swinging to the right" and that "you've got to appeal to the right" and that "the American public has swung to the right".

While there is some truth to the fact that the MSM puts out a blatantly rightwing message most of the time, infecting minds everywhere, Obama's campaign thus far has been a testament to the salient fact that honest Americans everywhere still have their wits about them and know bullshit when they hear it. They long for a true voice, an honest representation, a sensible domestic and foreign policy.

We need leaders, and they need to speak out, each and every time one of these lies is spread.

That is why it is so sad when Senator Obama trots out the tired "national security" line to defend his actions, when there are higher principles than that at stake.

If there is one thing I wish that Senator Obama would learn from all of this or from something is that the safest ground is the highest ground, not the lowest principle. Low principles may catch up with you right away, but they do catch up with you in the end. If he would just solidify his faith in the inherent sensibleness and goodness of the American people and in the inherent power that is obvious to everyone in following the highest possible principles, then there is no way he could fail.

[mdmc]

8. Obama should do whatever he needs to do to win in NOV.

If he thinks concentration (detention) camps will help him get elected, then we should line up to get in the cattle cars.

After all, Obama will be better then McSame. What more can we expect?

[Buzz Clik]

9. Nice try.

[John Q. Citizen]

26. How can you make calls for Obama and be posting to DU at the same time?

[Buzz Clik]

30. Back to that?

My, my. You are the obsessive one, aren't you?

[John Q. Citizen]

37. Do you like Obama more than you hate his critics? Inquireing minds want to know.

[mdmc]

27. gObama!

Lets stand behind him. Let him do what he needs to do in order to get elected.

[Buzz Clik]

31. I liked your cattle car suggestion.

It shows your dedication to the cause.

[mdmc]

65. I'll be going down to Miami to campaign for Obama

My cousin is working with local dems down there. He lives down there.
I've sent cash to Obama.
I'll plan my vacation around campaigning for him in a swing state.
I'll even withhold criticizing him here on DU.

So let Obama do whatever is needed to win. Obama is better then McCain.

[Bake]

47. I hope you're joking.

There is a line that I won't cross, and if my Dem "leaders" cross it, they lose me and my support - vote and dollars.

If you want to get in the cattle car, go ahead.

Bake

[mdmc]

66. Whatever it takes my friend

I'll support Obama and won't criticize him.
:patriot:

[Bake]

80. Andy would be ashamed of you.

Blind obedience wasn't his strong suit.

Bake

[mdmc]

87. Yes he would

but I've been warned at DU --- "cant advocate third parties, staying home, or voting for McCain ... or general "smears" against Democrats." I didn't do any of that, but I do have a great deal of respect for Nader.

I used to work hard locally for dems, including working on national campaigns in swing states. Then I would come home and post at DU regarding how sick I was of the lesser of two evil mentality.

Now I don't talk progressive politics here. I just paint my face and "support the team", just like David Puddy from Seinfeld. I still do my real world politics, and may even run for county legislature in 2009.
But I don't criticize the dems here, and I don't discuss how I will vote in NYS.

This is a far different world then the one Andy left. But I agree with your assessment.

[Bake]

89. I apologize for my snark.

I will vote for Obama. Let me say that clearly. I will vote for Obama. That doesn't mean that I'm not disappointed in his vote on FISA.

Keep up the good fight in the real world, where it matters.

:hi:

Bake

[mdmc]

93. Peace and low stress my friend

I know your a good dude and that you are fightin for the same thing that we are all fighting for.
Peace and low stress and God Bless:pals:

[madmom]

76. I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels this way!

[madmom]

75. So we should turn into sheeple like the right wingers? no thanks!

[Buzz Clik]

90. Agreed. No thanks.

At the same time, it would be interesting to see some original thought on this subject.

[mdmc]

95. I agree with you

and love your sig line.

A quick joke-
I hope I die in my sleep, comfortable and painfree, like my grand-dad. I'd hate to die in fear and in pain, like the passengers in grand-dad's car.

peace and low stress

[Beacool]

79. I hope that you're saying this in jest.

The collective mentality is what has lead to totalitarian regimes. Those in government should always be questioned, they work for us, not the other way around.

[mdmc]

94. Not in jest, but also not in real life

Here on DU I will not "smear" Obama, or risk having criticism be mistaken for a smear.

DU is a dem board, and I don't want to get banned for some misunderstanding. I may be a liberal (or a radical leftist or something else :shrug: ), but I really love this board and don't want to do anything that risks my participation here.

So on DU I cheerlead. In real life I work for Dems and things I believe in.

God Bless, and peace and low stress :pals:

[Beacool]

97. OK, I know how you feel.

I keep biting my tongue and try to tip toe through the tulips to avoid getting banned.

But some days are more difficult than others......

LOL!!!!!

:7

[SammyWinstonJack]

104. !

:thumbsup:

[LynneSin]

11. Second you on that one

ugh!

[peacetalksforall]

28. Yes, maybe. I haven't read them all because I dread knowing more about

nearly gutless positions coming from Obama. We've been had and he did little to nothing to preserve my rights. Depicable.

[Buzz Clik]

32. Well, I guess you need to find a new candidate. Keep us informed.

[peacetalksforall]

36. There is nothing to hope for. No need to look. The DLC has a lock

on it all. It's all pretend. It's all over. I hope that all of you who believe that this is all part of a strategy for some mystery solution that an't be revealed right now - don't end up feeling as hopeless as I do about the country. Yes, there is no need to find a candidate. We are done with if all of you keep deluding yourself.

I wasted my time trying to get people to understand what was wrong - endless hours talking to people to get them to wake up. The worst wrong was within the Dem leadership.

[LVjinx]

60. Why? The nominee isn't picked until August. There's lots of time.

[peacetalksforall]

33. Does it really make any difference if Dems are in charge? Doesn't appear that way.

I deplore all the traitors who hinted that FISA immunity and ther rest of it was fine just as Dick wanted it and who told us to go jump off a cliff about our silly Bill of Rights.

No difference. Nader was right. I should have listened to the people who told me that 45 years ago. I went my stupid way believing in Dems.

[Phillycat]

82. Did it occur to you that the reason there are so many of these threads

is that more people feel this way than the way you feel?

[NattPang]

2. See Patriot Act I & II

for your loss of privacy and freedom.
It didn't happen today,
it happened in 2001.

You are late on this.

[Donnachaidh]

4. Get used to it.

Don't expect to see any heroics from Obama. He just talks about change.

[Growler]

6. Whereas I won't see YOU talk about anything

*plonk*

[Donnachaidh]

19. feel better?

Too bad you don't *plonk* the appropriate people. Cognitive dissonance is quite a drug.

[Political Heretic]

15. No he talks about change different from the change YOU want

But then, YOU'RE not running for president, are you?

I don't understand how anyone could listen to this man's speeches for a year and half and not freaking get the fact that he has always, always, always described the change HE believes in as a change to post-partisan politics, a change of unity and compromise - never change defined as running to the hard left and fuck what half the country thinks.

That may be what you want, but Obama was never that guy, nor did he ever present himself as that guy.

[latebloomer]

18. As the OP indicated

protecting the Constitution is NOT "hard left."

[Political Heretic]

22. I didn't say it was. I didn't respond to the OP.

[latebloomer]

34. But you did say

"he has always, always, always described the change HE believes in as a change to post-partisan politics, a change of unity and compromise - never change defined as running to the hard left and fuck what half the country thinks."

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LVjinx]

61. I guess I missed all that when he bashed Hillary for compromising as "republican lite"

[Fumesucker]

71. From my point of view the Dems are already compromising way too much..

I don't want compromise with the Repubs, I want someone to stand up against them.. Something that isn't happening now and hasn't happened for at least the last eight years.

"Change" that takes us further to the right is worse than staying with the status quo.

[Freddie Stubbs]

7. Obama never promised a filibuster

[Political Heretic]

14. We were promised support of a fillabuster. That's all we were promised.

I'm just making sure we get the facts straight. I'm more than happy if people want to say "he should have promised more!" But let's just be accurate.

[FredfromSpace]

51. He voted against the filibuster.

Just to make it clear.

The cloture vote was the attempted filibuster.

And Obama voted against that.

He broke his campaign promise and violated our trust.

I know there is nowhere else to go.

I guess he was counting on that too.

[debbierlus]

20. I am in complete agreement - WALK THE WALK -

Talk is CHEAP.

This was an important first test. IMO, he utterly and totally FAILED. There is NO excuse.

[SidneyCarton]

35. ENOUGH! WE'LL ALL VOTE GREEN NOW FOR SURE!

You guys never quite quit, do you? The horse isn't dead, its dust, you've beaten it into atoms! Fine, don't vote for him, see what McCain does for the Constitution, when the bombs fall on Iran and your childre get drafted for the great crusade, don't come crying to me, I'm likely to be dodging bullets along with them.

[peacetalksforall]

38. You interpret anger at Obama and the rest of the Dem leaders as a

vote for McCain. You're wrong.

Personally, I have new respect for those who don't get involved at all. After all this time, I find out that they knew more than I did.

I condemn Obama for getting the hopes up of people who were previously uninvolved in politics - he got them to come out and support him - to roused them to enthusiastic activism. They still don't probably know the issues well enough to know how he let them all down, whether they are blinded by ignorance of the issues or with eyes wide open through the new found studies of crime against citizens.

He's grand disappointment and he is within a parallel company of leadership.

[SidneyCarton]

40. You resent him for getting YOUR hopes up.

So you had no choice in this matter, you were nothing but a mindless automaton in the hands of a master manipulator? You chose to believe, you chose to project your beliefs on this man. Take some responsibility for your own complicity in your disappointment.

[peacetalksforall]

57. No. I' ve stayed in the middle. Something told me to reserve my enthusiasm. At the

same time I was fascinated with the adoration poured down on him and I tried to join in - in the hopes I was wrong. Everyone I know could vouch for my doubt. The only answer I could give is that I didn't know enough about him and I did not hear the words I wanted to hear - words similar to Gore on the war, Gore on the environment, Gore on fairness and preserving our country politically. (I guess you can guess that I did not favor Sen. Clinton).

I just can't get into anyone who goes right of center after the 8 years of hell and the free fall of our country. Pretending to be center and right of center and then moving and leading left is too duplicitous for me. I really hope I'm wrong and can apologize to everyone in the years to come. I fell that no one is representing me and what I believe in - a tight hold on my Constitutuion. Bill of Rights, Habeus Corpus, end of death, destruction, disruption, plundering, lying, torture, theft of what the citizens had and have, most especially the vote.

NO ONE HAS SATISFIED ME WHEN IT COMES TO STOPPING THE THEFT OF OUR VOTES and TORTURE and stealing the husbands and fathers in many countries. The House is deplorably absent. They spook me.

[madmom]

77. What about all these "new voters" who are expecting change in the way

things are done in Washington, they see this and see the same old things, will they even bother to vote in November? My guess would be no!

[rudy23]

41. This is a strawman--I'm not saying I'll vote green. But I won't donate or volunteer.

I just can't get energized over a candidate that's giving us the same gameplan as our Democratic Congress, and the last two failed Democratic candidates for president.

[SidneyCarton]

44. No, its a rant, if I wanted a strawman I'd actually use your own words

What game plan do you have? A valiant last stand against our foes, until the cavalry comes charging over the hills to save us and we all ride victorious off into the sunset?

Good grief, you'd think that the Republicans will just vanish into the mist when we selected the nominee, or that they'd go home and sulk for a generation while we save the country. We will have to work against opposition. We have to pick our battles and we will have to compromise. But go on, call our nominee a failure, a joke, an empty suit, we've heard it all before, and on the morning of November 6th if we've lost, we will remember the nay-sayers and the underminers who couldn't see the forest for the trees.

[rudy23]

46. My "gameplan" is to make it known how frustrated I am with Obama's stance on the 4th amendment

What if all of us were silent on this? What would keep Obama from moving even further to the right to win the election? What would make him change back to please us, his base?

I realize we have to pick our battles, in this case I think he chose very, very poorly. Too much was given away to satisfy too few people.

[SidneyCarton]

50. Oh yeah, because if we all didn't shreik as loud as possible...

He might just decide to bomb Iran, oppose Abortion, and favor the imposition of Biblical law over the Constitution, in order to get the all important fundie vote. Man, realistically how far to the right do you think he'll go. He remains at the middle, which is where he said he'd be from the get go, I'm sorry that you imagined him otherwise.

[rudy23]

53. What you call shreiking, I call voicing. It's funny how you can hear shreiks over the internet.

It's almost as if you're conjuring them up yourself.

[LVjinx]

62. Then why did he bash Hillary for working with Republicans, if that was his intent all along?

[Bake]

48. If, on Nov. 6, we've lost, put the blame in the proper place

On a candidate who disappointed too many of his base, and who failed to show leadership when leadership was needed.

He was a follower today. Not a leader.

Which amendments matter? Obviously not the Fourth. What about the First? The Eighth? If one doesn't matter, then why defend the others? After all, it's "just a goddamn piece of paper" ...

Bake

[SidneyCarton]

49. Until we get Bush out of office that is exactly what it is.

[LVjinx]

63. Unfortunately, we *won't* get Bush out of office. His term will end right on schedule

Thanks in part to Pelosi and her adamant refusal to stand up to him.

[Phillycat]

83. But. That's WHY we want to get Bush out of office.

Because he destroys the Constitution - among other reasons. So we should destroy the Constitution to get a candidate elected to get Bush out of office so he can't destroy the Constitution anymore?

I swear, the surrealist nightmare we live in gets more bizarre every day.

[FredfromSpace]

55. That's how I see it too.

The emperor went out without his clothes today.

Don't blame me....I'm just reporting what I saw...

[SammyWinstonJack]

106. And some of his followers need to lose their rose colored glasses, it would seem.

:shrug: They continue to make excuses for him when they would slam Hillary or any other Dem Leader for casting the same vote. Very telling.

[FredfromSpace]

52. Donate to Feingold or ACLU.

That is my best and perhaps only response.

[rudy23]

54. I think I'll take you up on that.

I think you've got the right answer.

[peacetalksforall]

68. I think a good place for my support is the ACLU.

A couple of weeks ago, one of his supporters on DU wrote that Obama was going to do or say some things that some of us would not be happy about. I think I've been fooled.

So far, I don't see much difference between his votes and some of the most Cheney supporting Senators. Usually I can figure out why Senators do things that make me extremely angry and I tell myself to have patience, they may be working around Cheney. Not this time. I hope I'm wrong. I will apologize if I am..

Calling him liberal is weird.

No civil lawsuits against the enablers?

[shadowknows69]

42. So why aren't the mods TSing all these people admitting they aren't going to support our nom?

[rudy23]

43. That's a strawman--I do support the nom. I've just lost my energy for donating and volunteering.

I think this is a big mistake on his part. The 4th amendment isn't an "issue", it's a way of life.

[LVjinx]

64. Probably in part because there isn't actually a nom yet.

[rug]

45. .

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

72. "Change" = Pandering as usual? K&R

[leftofthedial]

74. "Change?"

"You didn't think I meant *real* change, did you?"

"I just meant 'change from *them* doing business as usual to *me* doing business as usual.'"

Ahh, the tyranny of high expectations . . .

[Phillycat]

81. Excellent, excellent post.

Very well said. :thumbsup: I feel the same.

[FourScore]

85. Thank you, rudy23! n/t

[alarimer]

105. I really intensely dislike this guy more and more every day.

And this vote only sealed it for me. Not sure what I am going to do on election day. Probably I will not vote at all. I may never vote again, actually.

[SammyWinstonJack]

107. He's just being himself. I don't know why so many were fooled.

:shrug: I'll vote straight Dem ticket like I always do. x(