So what’s your tipping point? What would have to happen to get you to act?

[rhett o rick]

Apparently not stolen elections, not torture, not the MCA, not the Patriot Act, not CAFTA, not NAFTA, not WTO, not Congress sanctioned violations of the fourth Amendment, not your government lying you into a bloody war, not the deaths of thousands of American troops, not the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Iraqi children, not rendition….. so what?

When I think about what our founding fathers and their families sacrificed I feel ashamed of myself and of this Nation.

Some posters were arguing on another thread about whether or not we were still a republic. The answer is no, look up the definition.
The term oligarchy comes to my mind.

[BlueJac]

1. You know......

no cell phone, no internet, or no cable tv, what else is there?


:sarcasm:



We are in stranger than ever times!!

[rhett o rick]

8. Beer, damnit. That'd be the last straw. nm

[BlueJac]

13. I forgot about the important one, damn I hate that....

Oops, time for a cold one!

[rhett o rick]

17. And no right wing Bud or Coors, neither. nm

[BlueJac]

30. I'm in Portland Oregon..........

Home of the micro breweries. Thunderhead IPA for tonight

[rhett o rick]

33. WHAT NO BLITZ

[BlueJac]

39. gives you the shits, trust me

[rhett o rick]

42. LOL, you ain't telling me anything about Blitz I don't already know.

I started drinking with Blitz in the early '60's. And Blitz is a pretty good description. Oh yeah, and Ranier Ale, the green death.

[Dukkha]

28. that's a fantasy of mine

a wide scale attack with some sort of electromagnetic pulse bomb that destroys all electronic circuits. That would be a real fitting punishment for Americans. No massive destruction of cities or whole populations wiped out, but a total depravity of all the luxuries and comforts the spoiled citizens indulge in.

[rhett o rick]

35. Wow, my fantasies are way different. Hmm. nm

[villager]

2. When the mall is permanently shuttered.

n/t

[Speck Tater]

3. By the time masses of people are starving to death

they are mostly too weak and exhausted to do anything.

So I guess the answer is Americans will NEVER do anything about anything. The current generation has been bred and raised to be dependent, apathetic and lazy. Natural selection will weed them out.

[robinlynne]

4. I have been acting and acting and right now I feel like someone took all the air out of my

being.

[redqueen]

5. What do you mean by "act"?

[rhett o rick]

9. Great question. What do you think "act" should mean? Maybe write an email or two?

You tell me.

[redqueen]

11. That differs for everyone. I'd think most people on this board have been 'acting' for years.

So... I'm confused by the question in your OP.

[Phred42]

14. BULLSHIT

Blogging is not 'acting' it's blogging and it's benign....meaningless...will change nothing.

We stopped a WAR in the 60's by getting out in the streets and protesting and getting our head cracked open. Some got killed (Kent State) thousands were arrested over the years. That was one way to ACT. What have you got?

You Children - blog - and think you're doing something.

[rhett o rick]

16. IMO your anger is misdirected. I appreciate your frustration. But I really would like

to know what your tipping point is? What would it take for you to "gotothestreets"?

[redqueen]

18. Who the fuck said I meant blogging?

Settle down, Beavis.

[Two Americas]

31. not true

Words are what the ruling class fears most. There is nothing they spend more time and resources on than they do on controlling the national political discussion.

"The pen is mightier than the sword" - our opponents know that. A pity that we don't.

"A true patriot would keep the attention of his fellow citizens awake to their grievances, and not allow them to rest till the causes of their just complaints are removed."

"It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people’s minds."

Sam Adams

[ljm2002]

52. Oh c'mon...

...I was there for the '60's demonstrations too, and also for the demonstrations against both Iraq incursions.

There's a big difference between then and now: the media is under lockstep corporate control, and filters things to no end. In the '60's you could not turn on the news without seeing images of demonstrations, and news commentators actually said things of substance from time to time.

We are living in a different time. And the fact is, bloggers have made a huge difference. Thank goodness for bloggers! And for discussion boards like this one. Without these resources we would have no chance to know the truth.

Don't get me wrong. I am every bit as disgusted as you are. I just don't want to put down people who are aware and concerned, because they aren't as effective as we might think we were way back when. You know what? We weren't that much more effective then than now. Take another look at the level and length of time of the carnage that engulfed SE Asia during the Vietnam era -- not to mention the level of American casualties -- before "we" put an end to it. And those demonstrations only really took off when the young men of the middle class started getting their asses drafted. Again, don't get me wrong, I stood with them. But you know what? A lot of the very same people who demonstrated so vociferously back then, who took part in the so-called "free love" and the drugs etc., became this generation's conservative elders -- working for and going to bat for the corporate state, trying to mold their youngsters into pliant drones of our wonderful capitalist system. So many of those young men grew up to be the fifty-something males who voted for Bush because Kerry was just, you know, too elitist for them. So many of those young women grew up to be soccer moms driving the huge gas guzzlers because, you know, it's just kill or be killed out there on the highway and damned if me and mine won't have the upper hand.

It's been said before, and it bears repeating: the pen is mightier than the sword. While it is indeed necessary to stand against the machine, one way of doing that is by writing about it. And to do so in this day and age often takes real courage, putting oneself out there is not without its risks. At least in a crowd, you are one of many. If you are writing a political blog, or penning articles criticizing this Administration -- you are making yourself a target.

Kudos to all those who act, in whatever way befits their talents and inclinations. May we see the movement grow, and take new forms for a new age.

[MattSh]

58. Bloggers have made a big difference? To how many?

I see the total DU membership recently reached 123,000. And lets say for every member, there have been ten reading but not joining.

Hypothetical total since 2001. 1,350,000 at one time or another. How many have been active in the last six months? Unknown.

And how many still get there news from the major networks, including cable? I don't know, but it's much larger than 1.35 million.

How many Americans are there? 300,000,000. So DU has enriched less than .5% of the population at some time or another.

Sorry for being so cynical. But I don't see any politician losing sleep over what some blogger or another is saying.

[ljm2002]

59. To cite just one instance...

...TalkingPointsMemo broke, and kept pursuing the story about the politically-motivated firings of U.S. Attorneys.

Also, the blogs kept telling the truth about so-called reporters like Judith Miller.

I am as frustrated and as cynical as most, but it is very important that people keep digging for the truth and keep putting it out there.

Also, I'm sick to death of people in my generation congratulating ourselves for all we accomplished. We did finally get out in the streets, true -- but then it was actually reported in the media. Now, not so much. And we did not manage to stem the bloodshed, did we? We did not manage to win against the backlash, did we? Reagan got in and won a second term, didn't he? And all of the holdovers from his and Nixon's and Bush I's regimes are back in positions of power?

All of us of whatever generation are up against a stronger, more well-oiled machine than ever. Not the time to take potshots at those who are trying.

Just my take, not trying to attack you.

[rhett o rick]

60. I think you both have good points. It is important to keep digging and blogging etc. We have made

headway. However, until we figure out how to reach the millions and millions of gullibles, we are swimming against the tide. The bad-guys own the media almost completely. Progressives have some publications but manly only progressives read them.

[OneBlueSky]

62. "We stopped a WAR in the 60's by getting out in the streets

and protesting and getting our head cracked open. Some got killed (Kent State) thousands were arrested over the years." . .

very true . . . I was there . . . though I was fortunate enough not to get my head cracked open, I did march and raise a ruckus -- locally, in New York, and with a million or so others in Washington . . . several times, in fact . . .

doing something similar today, however, involves risks that were not present 35-40 years ago . . . in those days, television crews recorded what was going on and broadcast it nationwide . . . when the authorities overstepped their bounds (see Chicago Democratic Convention, 1968), everyone saw it first hand, and the courts were generally unbiased enough to protect our civil rights and liberties . . .

this is no longer the case . . . today you can be arrested and carted away, never to be seen or heard from again . . . you can be transported to another country, tortured, and held indefinitely, and no one would know where you are or even if you're alive . . . you can be deemed an "enemy combatant" by the government and lose the right of habeus corpus, and have no recourse whatsoever in the U.S. courts . . . you don't even have to be given access to a lawyer -- or food or drink, for that matter . . .

the point being that we are living in an entirely different country today than we did a quarter century ago . . . the protections guaranteed by the Constitution no longer apply, and the government can do pretty much any damn thing they want to you . . . for all intents and purposes, you can simply be "disappeared," and your friends and loved ones will have no idea where to even look for you -- or if you're even alive . . .

the eight years of BushCo have done a lot more than wreck the economy and destroy our standing in the community of nations . . . they have effectively destroyed the rights and liberties that used to protect us from the kinds of gestapo actions that the government now engages in almost routinely . . . and "taking it to the streets" is something you really have to think about when there's a real possibility that if you do so, you may never be heard from again . . .

[rhett o rick]

15. By act I mean to do more than emailing your congress-critter. I too have been

active, but I feel somehow it hasn't been effective. I don't know what the next step is but there has to be some thing more we can do. I do not want to propose civil disobedience, it may get me arrested for one thing. I guess I am trying to ask how low would you be willing to let this country sink before you took the next step? What ever you choose that to be.

[redqueen]

22. I'm not giving them any excuse to declare martial law.

That kind of stuff makes me furious. I have talked to too many twenty- and thirty-somethings who seem to have this idea that it's hopeless to try to change things from within the system... and they do openly advocate revolt... not civil disobedience... but that whole 'fertilize the tree with blood' stuff. I have to hope they're joking.

[frog92969]

29. Probably not joking

This is way past funny

[Two Americas]

34. they don't need an excuse

No need to declare martial law, so long as we obediently and meekly comply.

Let's ask Sam about this...

"The liberties of our country, the freedom of our civil Constitution, are worth defending at all hazards; and it is our duty to defend them against all attacks. We have received them as a fair inheritance from our worthy ancestors: they purchased them for us with toil and danger and expense of treasure and blood, and transmitted them to us with care and diligence. It will bring an everlasting mark of infamy on the present generation, enlightened as it is, if we should suffer them to be wrested from us by violence without a struggle, or to be cheated out of them by the artifices of false and designing men."

"If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen."

[Phred42]

12. That is the problem. IF you have to have someone define 'ACT'

to you - you ain't 'on the bus' and you are clueless and WE are lost.

[rhett o rick]

19. Well said Phred. nm

[redqueen]

24. How the hell is that well said?

It's more nonsense?

ON THE BUS?

:wtf:

Is this some new code speak which I'm not familiar with?

[rhett o rick]

32. I am sorry, I just couldn't resist. I hoped you wouldn't see that comment. But in truth

I agree with the comment. At some point the people will have to get out pitch forks and shovels and drive the bastards out.

As I see it there is a small band of fascists that are trying to take over the country. They own the media. Also there is a small band of activists that are trying to save the country. That leave a whole hell of a lot of mindless gullibles. If we wait for them to wake up it will be never. If we think that our freedom is worth saving, then we will need to kick some ass (i am not condoning nor recommending any violent actions against our wonderful government. FU NSA). This is what happened with Vietnam. Peaceful protests did nothing. When buildings started to blow up and people got shot by the Man, then the gullibles woke up.

Believe me when I tell you I don't want a revolution, I don't want martial law, but I can not stand by and let them steal our country from us. And they are, every day it gets worse. Obama might be able to slow the progression but I doubt he can reverse the trend.

But my original question to you redqueen is, do you have a tipping point? Maybe concentration camps?

[baby_mouse]

61. There won't be a revolution.

There may be a brief but media-audible "terrorist attack" which will rapidly be snuffed out. More civil liberties will be eroded as a consequence.

Rinse and repeat.

Revolution is the way of the past. It's boring and unfashionable. Nobody WANTS revolution. Revolution costs stuff, like lives.

Nobody in America is going to give up their life to save America from fascists. There's no sense of superiority in that. If it was some dumb place like Europe or Africa they'd have no problem, but America is their home and they don't want it mussed up.

Oh, and they're ready for the pitchforks, by the way.

[Phred42]

50. Sorry I guess the Ken Kesey reference was too much

It's a Ken Kesey - "you're either On the bus, or off of the bus"

The Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test by Tom Wolfe

[redqueen]

51. I was going to guess that.

So ... what does that have to do with ways to act to change things?

Is 'turn on, tune in, drop out' a way to change things?

[redqueen]

23. Oh good grief. Yes, because when people say "ACT" it always means the same thing.

:eyes:

Drama... this place is beyond insane.

[lonestarnot]

6. Act like what? Do what? Act? Isn't that a mouthwash?

[Solly Mack]

7. tipping points are for people who can't rationalize

I couldn't resist

I really, really couldn't.

I seriously could not resist.

I had to say it.

Had.To.

[rhett o rick]

10. I like it. Rationalization is the key to happyness. nm

[lukasahero]

20. What are *you* doing?

And what do you consider "acting"? Because I think you can speak for yourself if you're not acting but many, MANY of us are. Are we rioting in the streets? No. Is that the only means we have to act? No. If that's your only answer, then you're no different than Bush with his for us or against us shit.

What do you want to do - blow things up? Some of us have learned there are alternatives. So how about putting your self-righteous money where your mouth is?

Edited to add - you think letter writing is ineffective and blogging is intellectual masturbation? I'm right there with you. How about running for office? How about getting involved in organizations that don't wait for someone else to change the world but go out there and do it? How about going green in your own home? How about giving money/food to those who have less? How about going door to door for your candidate/cause of choice? What are YOU doing?

[redqueen]

25. I see that you are also not "on the bus" and therefore "clueless"

This thread is... bizarre.

[lukasahero]

27. :)

Been seeing you in a lot of these threads too tonight. :crazy: I have some thoughts but I can't say it's all young idealists recently disillusioned so I'm not going to get into what I think is going on until I analyze it a bit more but man, it's brutal out here tonight. I'm going to go play in my garden instead. :) (Oh yeah, translate that into - care for the vegetables I'm growing to split with my local food bank. :) )

[Two Americas]

37. divisive

This "what are you doing" taunting is very divisive. This is about what we are going to do. We are talking about that, which is the first step.

[lukasahero]

40. Sorry but no - change starts at the personal level

This sounds like more of that stupid song "Waiting on the world to change". The world won't change unless you and I do. Individually. I cannot change anyone but myself. But because I can do that, I can change the world.

[Two Americas]

43. that is one way of looking at things

That is the libertarian individualism notion of how things work, yes.

[lukasahero]

47. Sorry but no - no libertarian here

If you want to talk in black and white, I have no use for you. If you can understand nuance and shades of gray, we can talk.

[Two Americas]

55. didn't say you were

I said it is a libertarianism to see it as all starting with the personal and the individual - be it "personal responsibility" or "personal choices." The alternative view is that is is not people who need reforming, it is the system. Of course, as you say, there are shades of gray and it is not all one or the other.

You said "change starts at the personal level." I say the the system so restricts personal choices that your statement is rendered useless. Change the system, and people will improve all on their own. Ask people to change themselves first and you are only talking to a small percentage of the population of the world, those with the resources and freedom to make changes. That is a variation on the Reagan era rugged individualism and work against collective action.

We are social beings. We can do nothing as individuals without community, and we can go no further and do no more that the community we live in supports. Change starts at the social level.

Relatively well off Americans take their advantages for granted, and that allows them to think that the personal is what is important.

[rhett o rick]

44. I don't think I need changing. What am I a baby? But there are millions in this nation

of gullibles that need to change or kiss your democratic republic goodbye.

[Two Americas]

56. it is a cruel joke

This idea of personal transformation as a prerequisite to political and social change has a great deal of appeal to a few - mostly fairly well off American academics and suburbanites - but is a cruel joke on the millions of people who are so restrained by political and economic conditions that they have few options and little power to effect any serious and needed change in their own lives.

You are accurately perceiving the condescension and paternalism implicit in those arguments. As with much of this modern liberalism of personal feelings and self-actualization, it is merely libertarianism with an "organic" label slapped on it, the flip side of the Reagan bootstrap personal responsibility philosophy.

[rhett o rick]

41. If we could only channel your agression against our opponents.

I work hard within the system and have watched our freedoms not slip but fly away. I don't think this is working. I don't have an answer, that's why I posted the question. I think emailing and blogging have their place but don't think they will save our republic.

No one seems to want to talk about the next level. I can understand why. First most of us live in denial to some degree. Maybe things will just work out. Maybe Obama will save us. Second we are afraid of the government. Our government that we own but cannot control.

[lukasahero]

46. Who are "our" opponents?

My "aggression" is channeled against McCain/Bush regime. My energy is channeled towards making life better for those I can and working to improve the condition at large by supporting and promoting the best possible candidates. Go march in the street if you want to. Why are you waiting for someone else to "start" the revolution. Do it yourself.

[Two Americas]

57. that is an easy one

The right wingers, through the Republican party and on behalf of their wealthy and powerful clients and bosses, well know where the battle lines are drawn and what the battle is about. Their program is consistent and they are relentless and effective in pursuing it. Anything that helps the public is to be destroyed. Anything that helps the wealthy and powerful few is to be promoted.

We are just talking here, and taunting people about their personal choices is counter-productive, as well as covertly imposing your personal choice philosophy about politics onto the discussion and trying to get people to accept it as a given. Defend your personal choice philosophy if you can, but don't try to force us to accept it as the only way to look at things.

[Popol Vuh]

21. Pulling the feeding tube out of a permanent vegetative person?

:sarcasm:

[NNN0LHI]

26. You didn't mention what your tipping point was or how you were going to act when you got there

Fishing?

Don

[rhett o rick]

38. Great question. I really don't know. I brought it up to maybe get ideas.

Also it's tough to do it alone. How about you?

[Bright Eyes]

36. Canceling American Idol.

"They canceled American Idol! OFF WITH THEIR HEADS!"

Anything short of that, no.

[rhett o rick]

45. What's American Idol. nm

[ForrestGump]

48. I'd have to have a good script. And any nude scenes would have to be artistic and not simply

exploitive.

Oh. Sorry. Misunderstood.

[rhett o rick]

49. I can tell you're not taking this question seriously.....

If there can't be exploitive scenes then no deal. :bounce:

[samsingh]

53. i'm past it.

[BigDaddy44]

54. Brad and Angelina breaking up