do you believe in hell? (the recent deaths of jesse helms and tony snow returns this to my mind)

[Gato Moteado]

many DUers are are christians. christians are big into the whole hell thing. the church uses it, and always has, to scare people into accepting their dogma. the muslims too.

but, seriously, do you really believe there's a pit of fire somewhere down there run by a guy with pointy horns, a goatee and goat's feet and that after he's tempted you into committing enough sins you'll end up there where he'll torture you for eternity?

if you do believe in hell, who do you believe will end up there? are tony snow and jesse helms there right now, finishing up their orientation in the hell cafeteria, about to be led into the inferno by pitchfork wielding demons? will chimpy and cheney go there when they've finally slithered out of their mortal skins? rush limbaugh? ann coulter? how about the freepers?

personally, i don't believe in the place. but, you know, sometimes i wish it really existed because the thought of these people roasting in a big eternal barbeque is, at times, appealing to me. it's then that i realize why the place was ever created in the first place. it is a helpful tool in scaring people to fall in line and for some reason it's comforting for people to believe that their enemies will go there to suffer after they're gone.

how many professing christians or muslims would there be if there were no threats of hell and eternal damnation to keep them in the fold? how many people would open their checkbooks for the catholic church or televangelists like pat robertson or jerry falwell if the notion of hell didn't exist? how many people would strap bombs to their bodies and walk into crowds or fly airplanes into buildings if they thought that there really could be nothing after you die?

i remember the first time, as a young child, that i was introduced to the notion of hell. i remember what a buzz kill it was.

so, as often as i might wish that someone would go rot in hell, i don't actually believe such a place exists.

what about you?

[guitar man]

1. after almost 8 years of *bush

damn right I believe in hell....we're currently living in it. :(

[Gato Moteado]

11. you live in a society whose political system was taken over by corporations and moneyed interests...

...that's probably been happening for more than just the last 8 years. they're just becoming more blatant and reaching too far and because the current puppet is such a dumbshit, they're unintentionally more transparent.

but, i'm talking about hell as the metaphysical place you'll hear preachers tell you about. the place where you live in eternal pain as demons sear your flesh and poke you with barbed sticks. you're not there right now. you have a house, a car, a computer, an internet connection, food in your refridgerator, probably a TV or two and the freedom to get up and go do pretty much whatever you want to do whenever you want. you deal with annoyances like rules and regulations and a crappy economy and taxes, but that's because you choose to continue living within the system there. you could always move. hell is a place where you're stuck for eternity and cannot leave. you can't even get up from the sofa to grab a cold brew out of the fridge.

[guitar man]

21. as to a literal hell

no, I believe it's a made up fairy tale that's been used for centuries to keep people "in line".

[propel]

89. Heaven and Hell

You might want to go to
www.spiritlessons.com

Check out the MP3's for the 7 Columbian Youths....the hell MP#

[Solly Mack]

2. No

[knitter4democracy]

3. I don't try to define hell.

Yes, I do believe in hell, but as I've never been there, I cannot define it or describe it. I have no idea who will go there, really, as judgement is best left up to God. I just pray that the judgement will be swift and just for those who've hurt so many and for me to get beyond my anger and move into love.

[Gato Moteado]

9. do you think there's any chance you could end up there?

or is it a place where only evil doers go?

the reason i ask is because you said you hope god's judgement is swift for those who've hurt so many and that you'll be able to get beyond your anger and into love.

i could be wrong, but it sounds like you've described a place where other people will go and you'll pass into a place of love instead. i mean, if there were a hell, i sure would hope that you or i wouldn't go there. but it almost sounded as if you have in fact defined and described hell as a place where the people who have hurt so many will end up after god judges them....right after you said that you couldn't define or describe it and that judgement is best left up to god.

[knitter4democracy]

12. I pray for mercy.

I have no idea where I'll end up. Since that's up to God, I pray for mercy and try to live as Christ-like as I can, which is a difficult, daily walk. I have hurt many in my lifetime--hurt people's feelings, eaten animals, live in the US which has killed so many in my name. I am not free from sin, and so I pray that God will be merciful to me when judgement comes.

I believe that hell is a place of suffering and torment, as described in the Bible, but I don't know what that really means. Is it full of actual fire and brimstone? I don't know. Are those metaphors for something else? I have no idea. The best description I ever heard was that it's separation from God, but that's extremely broad and not all that clear. The Bible says that those who have sinned against God will end up in hell, but again, that's extremely broad in scope and not all that clear in definition. So, instead of saying it's a pit with fire or whatever, I say that it's somewhere I don't want to end up and pray for mercy daily.

[Gato Moteado]

13. fair enough......but....

do you believe in satan? do you belive there's another metaphysical entity, one who is in complete opposition of god, who is responsible for making you sin and thereby risking your soul?

if there is a satan and if god truly loves us all like we love our children, why would god even allow the existence of a satan? wouldn't he crush satan so that we all lived untempted and had the chance to be with god when we die and nobody would be left to fry in hell?

[knitter4democracy]

17. Satan's not responsible for sin.

His job is temptation, that's all. Sin is about choice and behavior, and that means my sin is my fault alone.

Satan rebelled against God. Instead of destroying him, God let him and his army survive. Satan's temptation of Adam and Eve (not just Eve's fault--the Bible says she turned to Adam, so he was standing right there all along letting her do all the talking) helped them choose to sin, but they were the ones who chose it.

If we didn't have a choice between doing what's right and good and doing what's hurtful and wrong, then we'd be like programmed robots. Frankly, choice makes us stronger and makes us who we are. I've suffered in my life, sure, and it sucks, but that doesn't mean I would wish to have never gone through it. It's made me who I am today.

[Gato Moteado]

20. it sounds like you take the old testament, and genesis specifically, literally

...so it might be hard for us to come to any agreement on this whole thing.

but you did say one thing i agree with 100%:

"Frankly, choice makes us stronger and makes us who we are."

[knitter4democracy]

23. Not entirely literally, no.

If I did, I would believe that hell is a pit in the middle of the Earth full of fire, brimstone, and acid with devils hopping around poking people. I'd also believe that there are gold streets in Heaven, so no, I don't believe it literally. I do believe that God inspired the writers of the Bible, which isn't an infallible document, given its history, and I think the explanations in there are ones that people can understand easily, easier than the real ones.

For example, I don't think God made all of Creation in six literal days. I think the story was better for us for thousands of years (that God created everything, that He breathed Creation into being, and that He rested as we should) than if He'd set down all of the physics involved in great detail.

[ZombieHorde]

92. The Holy Bible clearly states that it was a talking serpent that tempted Eve...

which is now why snakes have no legs.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=1&chapter=3&version=31


 1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild
animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did
God really say, 'You must not eat from any tree in the
garden'?"

 2 The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat fruit from
the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, 'You must not eat
fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and
you must not touch it, or you will die.' "

 4 "You will not surely die," the serpent said to
the woman. 5 "For God knows that when you eat of it your
eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good
and evil."

 6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for
food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining
wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her
husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then the eyes of
both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked;
so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for
themselves.

 8 Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the LORD God
as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and
they hid from the LORD God among the trees of the garden. 9
But the LORD God called to the man, "Where are you?"

 10 He answered, "I heard you in the garden, and I was
afraid because I was naked; so I hid."

 11 And he said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have
you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat
from?"

 12 The man said, "The woman you put here with me—she
gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it."

 13 Then the LORD God said to the woman, "What is this
you have done?"
      The woman said, "The serpent deceived me, and I
ate."

 14 So the LORD God said to the serpent, "Because you
have done this,
       "Cursed are you above all the livestock
       and all the wild animals!
       You will crawl on your belly
       and you will eat dust
       all the days of your life.

 15 And I will put enmity
       between you and the woman,
       and between your offspring [a] and hers;
       he will crush [b] your head,
       and you will strike his heel."

 

[knitter4democracy]

93. All he did was tempt, though.

He didn't shove the apple in hers and Adam's mouths. He just tempted them to give into what they'd already been thinking of doing.

[ZombieHorde]

98. True, but it was a talking serpent that did the tempting, not Satan.

[knitter4democracy]

99. Depends on your interpretation.

Most believers who use the Torah/O.T. believe the serpant to be a manifestation of Satan. That's why Milton's Paradise Lost isn't that far-fetched (though I can't stand the piece myself) to most Christians.

[ZombieHorde]

100. If it was Satan, why would God punish all of the serpents by removing their legs?

14 So the LORD God said to the serpent, "Because you
have done this,
"Cursed are you above all the livestock
and all the wild animals!
You will crawl on your belly
and you will eat dust
all the days of your life.

15 And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and hers;
he will crush your head,
and you will strike his heel."

The only reason a person would interpret the serpent as Satan is because they believe that the Holy Bible is true, yet they don't believe in talking snakes.

[knitter4democracy]

101. Again, it depends on the Christian.

I can only speak to Christian theology, so that's where I'm coming from.

Many Christians (excepting fundamentalists) look at that and other Genesis stories as explanation myths--stories that explain why something is the way it is. Snakes crawl because of Satan taking the form of one, rainbows are God's bow in the clouds as a promise never to flood the earth again (that one never made sense to me), stuff like that.

There's believing something is true because it is literally true and not a single word in it is wrong, and then there's believing something is essentially but not perfectly true.

[ZombieHorde]

102. Snakes crawl because of Satan taking the form of one

People make that up, the Holy Bible states that it is a serpent.

Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild
animals the LORD God had made.

...

"Because you
have done this,
"Cursed are you above all the livestock
and all the wild animals!

[knitter4democracy]

103. That's what the fundies say.

They also say the streets of heaven will be pure gold (actual Au) that will be clear because The Book of Revelations says they'll be as pure as clear glass. At least, I have been told that twice by a couple of fundies I know.

[ZombieHorde]

104. It sounds pretty.

[Gato Moteado]

105. my snakes talk to me all the time

nt

[ZombieHorde]

106. Well, there you go. I would avoid any of your snakes food suggestions if I were you.

[bdf]

81. Three Abrahamic religions (and hundreds of creeds)

As you saw, your question about Satan was deflected.

So let's look at this way. The three major Abrahamic religions are fundamentally incompatible. At most only one can be right. To a Christian, Jesus was both the Son of God and God himself - a belief that to Jews and Muslims is vile heresy. To Muslims Jesus was the penultimate prophet - a view that to Jews and Christians is vile heresy (to Jews because they believe Jesus was a false prophet and a failed Messiah and to Christians because it denies the divinity of Jesus).

There is no objective evidence (that would stand in a court of law) to prove which of those three is the correct one. If you choose correctly, you get eternal bliss; choose wrongly and you burn in hell forever. The only thing you have to guide you is a feeling of communicating with God. But you (apparently, going by reports of believes of all three religions) get those feelings whichever of the incompatible belief-systems you follow. And that's not going into all of the various creeds (such as the Christian "Wee Wee Frees" of the Western Isles of Scotland who believe that the Pope is literally the tool of Satan and that mass is a Satanic ritual).

I figure that if there were a God, and if that God loved all of humankind, he'd make it kind of obvious which one is right. The way things work right now, where you believe that God communicates with you if you "open your heart to him" and people of all religions and creeds can have that feeling indicates it's either a delusion that humanity is prone to or that the supernatural entity on the other end of the heavenly entity is possessed of attributes we normally associate with Satan.

[NC_Nurse]

4. No.

[slackmaster]

5. This hyper-rational DUer insists on empirical evidence before "believing" in things

:hi:

[dysfunctional press]

18. same here. especially if it concerns something as grandiose as a supposed "immortal soul"...

but since there is no physical brain to it- i've always wondered where the 'immortal soul' would store it's memories and retain it's cognitive abilities...:shrug:

[cherokeeprogressive]

52. Where do you come down on the whole ET thing?

Because there is absolutely no empirical evidence that we are accompanied in the universe, nor is there likely to be.

[Bill McBlueState]

6. the recent Pew religion survey

I've been taking the recently released Pew religion survey with a grain of salt, but it showed that only 59% of Americans believe in a literal hell. If 75% of Americans are Christians, then at least 20% of American Christians don't believe in a literal hell.

[scheming daemons]

7. No.

Heaven and Hell were constructs created to CONTROL people. To keep people in line, leaders needed to make the people fearful of what would happen to them in the "next life".


It is a control-mechanism. And humans are predisposed to be gullible enough to believe it.

[Gato Moteado]

10. exactly what i said!

nt

[Romulox]

8. I believe in hell, because I've lived through it.

I also believe in ghosts, as I am haunted to this day by some of the things I've been through.

As far as pitchforks and brimstone. Nope.

[lonestarnot]

14. Yes I do.

:P

[Pale Blue Dot]

15. I believe that when you die your brain shuts down and there's nothing. nt

[dysfunctional press]

16. the concept of hell a childish fantasy of vengeance- but some people never grow up intellectually.

mark me down for a "no".

[Gato Moteado]

26. yep, i gotcha marked down!

;)

anyway....yeah, i agree 100%

[ThoughtCriminal]

19. Heaven is the same place

An integrated place where they have no power over anybody else and they're not richer than anyone? They may just think they're in hell.

[madokie]

22. No I do not

[Gato Moteado]

47. ok then....do you believe in rock and roll?

can music save your mortal soul?

and would you like to dance real slow?

i'm a "yes" on all of those counts.

:)

[azmouse]

24. I believe in Heaven and Hell but not as it is often shown.

Hell is merely the separation forever from God. I have no idea what it looks like.
Heaven is being with God for eternity. I also have no idea what it looks like but I hope to find out.

[marions ghost]

25. No and yes......

I think that people like Jesse Helms and Tony Snow are flawed humans, blinded by their own delusions--destructive influences that we must fight against so we will not be like that. They are here to help us understand what wrong is, and so DO have a function in our overall evolution. At the same time I don't think it's necessary for us to go out of our way to "forgive" them. Rather we must overcome them. I think it's OK to speak ill of them. Children have to learn to recognize negative entities among us, if nothing else. Important to differentiate between types of individuals. We are not all equally good. I appreciated that the news coverage of Helm's death acknowledged the fact of the notorious dark side lurking beneath all the "fine Southern gentleman" exterior. Amazing how many people gave him the benefit of the doubt based only on image. The news media, who sold us George Bush as Noble Defender against Terrorists, could not quite do the idolatry thing with Jesse. Target audiences would reject that now, a good sign.

I believe that death does reconnect us with the energy source from which we have come (you can call it Light, you can call it God, you can call it Spirit, you can call it Nothing). When we die I believe we all go to that source, even Jesse. Hell is an idea of a place that fits with humans' very material earthbound existence. It has logic as a concept. But I don't think Jesse is going "there"...I think that Jesse will get his gold stars for doing a good job as a manifestation of the worst of human nature on earth. But as he's a plodder & his heart is not very pure (even tho passing for "Christian") he'll probably get a second term here in the trenches. Obviously that's the Hindu idea--that "hell" would mean returning here for another term. Maybe Jesse'll come back as whatever the next target of hate is after gays, dark-skinned people and artists. I'm hoping he does some down time first, meditating in solitary confinement for a few centuries as opposed to roasting...

So I guess I'm hoping for karmic punishment too since he didn't get punished by our standards in life. All we can do back here is learn from it. I know one thing, there'll be another Jesse Helms springing up to rally those countless minions who fear and hate.

How would it be to be as hated as Helms, Dubya, and other dubious "leaders"--along with that bad fuhrer and those other evil dictators & killers? What a legacy, to be a representation of how NOT to do it as a human.

[sammythecat]

27. "...i remember what a buzz kill it was. "

:rofl:

I got it right out of the gate in Catholic school in first grade. Really harshed my mellow too.

[Gato Moteado]

32. yeah, im a recovered catholic too

nt

[La Lioness Priyanka]

28. no, sometimes i wish it though. like in case of jesse helms and reagan

[sammythecat]

30. Sorry. Meant to reply to OP.

[sammythecat]

35. Damn!! I did the same damn thing again!! Sorry about all this.

[sammythecat]

38. Now I'm apologizing to myself!! This is complicated.

[Gato Moteado]

42. you're repenting! yes....you're on the road to salvation now

it's limbo at the very worst for your soul now. or maybe east texas.

[Gato Moteado]

40. all this talk of hell has got you flustered, eh?

stirring up bad memories of ninja nuns with 10 foot long yardsticks.

[sammythecat]

45. I guess so. Got kinda ridiculous there. n/t

[Gato Moteado]

39. that's satan guiding your fingertips....

...be careful.

[Gato Moteado]

34. i'm with ya......

....but my list is way longer....as i'm sure yours is too.

[Gold Metal Flake]

29. I don't believe in Hell or in Kharma.

I don't believe in Heaven or Valhalla or any other post-corporeal existence of any kind. I believe that conscience, self, soul or whatever it may be called is based in the physical and once the body dies the self dies and it's simply game over.

[Vidar]

31. Only figuratively--as in a ton of bad karma in future lives.

[defendandprotect]

33. No . . . it's a patriarchal concept . . . part of their own sickness . . .

[sammythecat]

36. I'm not a believer anymore,

but I think the "modern" version of hell for many is not a place of punishment. It's simply oblivion, which may be the fate of us all. I'd like to think differently, but I just don't know.

[LeftishBrit]

37. As an atheist:: No.

I do think that people can create hells on earth - but not for eternity; everything ends.

[Dukkha]

41. the very concept of it is laughable

Nothing below us but molten magma, iron & nickel. Hell is just a marketing campaign to scare people into joining their religion. No surprise the loony fundy in the White House uses fear mongering as his main tactic to get his way.

[Gato Moteado]

43. it's funny for somewhat well adjusted free thinkers like you or me.....

...but it's, well it's hell for 5 year old children and gullible, undereducated, close minded people.

[LanternWaste]

44. not a pit of fire, or any other overly dramatic literary device...

I believe Hell exists-- it's simply the complete and absolute absence of God, but not a pit of fire ruled by a demon holding a pitchfork, or any other overly dramatic literary devices used...

C.S. Lewis wrote a wonderful exposition on his opinion of Hell in a work entitled Shadowlands. It opened my mind to some perspectives that I'd never considered prior to reading it, including (but not limited to) his view that the residents of Hell a) are not aware that they are in Hell in most cases, and b) may leave Hell voluntarily if they become aware of their predicament and posses the desire to leave.

Very interesting stuff...

[Cleita]

46. Some new agers believe that hell is our mortal existence on earth.

They believe that we keep coming back until we learn to live lives that will keep us in the higher spiritual dimensions like heaven or nirvana and break the cycle of reincarnation.

But they also believe that this is why many evil people do so well here on earth because they've been reincarnated so many times that hell is a good place for them and they know how to make the most of it.

[Gato Moteado]

49. that's an interesting take!

it's all more dogma of course. but it's a hell of a lot easier to swallow then eternal incineration and suffering.

[Cleita]

57. Well, in this belief, Jesse Helms is being reborn somewhere in Africa

to a dirt poor black African family. Whether he accepts his life of privation and tries to turn it around for himself and his peers by bringing the political skills he acquired in his previous life for change or whether he turns to crime or corrupt politics because of it, is the test. The easier path of course is doing the same in this new life that he did in the past. The harder but higher road is to break that pattern that keeps reincarnating him into more difficult lives by doing the right thing no matter how tempting it is to do otherwise.

[Gato Moteado]

59. or maybe he'll return as a gay man in the deep south...

and get slapped by all the legislation and bigotry that he himself created.

a gay black man. then he might learn. i bet he would. even ol' jesse would.

[Cleita]

65. Or another scenario is that he return to a southern, white family like the

one he came from, maybe even the same family. His life challenge would be to live this life quite differently than his previous life, like becoming liberal and entering politics to champion equal rights for all, a completely different way on the same path as his previous life.

[Gato Moteado]

66. hmmmm.....i think you'd see a rerun in that case.

i'm just a pessimist i guess.

[Cleita]

70. You would, which would explain why there are so many bad people in

the world. We are speaking hypothetically of course. There was a DUer some time ago who dreamed that Bush was a reincarnation of Hitler. If you compare Bush's life and political career with Hitler's, it's very similar with a few differences. Hitler was not born rich, but his family was dysfunctional like Bush's. He did serve in the military honorably, did not marry until the end, and he was not a substance abuser until he gained power and was often heavily medicated by his doctors. However, he seems to have followed in Hitler's footsteps rather eerily using much of the same ideology Hitler did as he delineated in his book "Mein Kampf"

[Gato Moteado]

77. except hitler was an idealogue who was sick but smart......

...bush has no ideology and is just a loafer that has had everything handed to him on a plate.

hitler fought in WWI, bush avoided service in vietnam.

bush is bad, but hitler was far worse of a human being because he was truly evil. bush is thick, he just does what he's told. he had no hand in actually stealing two elections. he just gets to think he's in charge. i'm not trying to absolve him of guilt for anything he's done, i'm just saying he's a rich frat boy going along for a ride with his even richer friends.

bush is more like one of those dark ages inbred retarded kings or retarded roman emperors.

[Cleita]

82. Like I said it's not an identical life but has similar obstacles and opportunities

for the person to use for his betterment to break the cycle of reincarnation. It's believed that one carries talents and skills as well as faults and fears from one life to the other. If Bush is the reincarnation of Hitler, he carried the ability over to rise as the leader of a country and in both cases by cheating and deception something not all of us can do.

[Gato Moteado]

85. bush sure had a lot of help.....

....if he hadn't been born into wealth, he'd be pumping gas now.

[madmom]

48. Nope!

[Gato Moteado]

50. how about purgatory?

surely you must believe in purgatory.

and what the hell is the difference between purgatory and limbo?

[madmom]

54. Nope don't believe in christian scare tactics at all. The only difference is the spelling IMO

[Gato Moteado]

55. i just looked up hell on wikipedia......

...and it's not just a christian scare tactic. lots of religions seem to have their version of it.

it's like extortion, isn't it?

[madmom]

90. Yeah, that's kinda the way I see it too!

[MotorCityMan]

76. I find Purgatory easier to believe in than Limbo

I went through 18 years of Catholic training. I thought the idea of Limbo, a place for unbaptized babies, was ludicrous. I stopped going to church regularly at 18 because I disagreed with a lot of the church's teachings and, being a gay man, they didn't want me there anyway.

I never really thought much about Heaven and Hell until my partner died almost 5 years ago. How I hoped for SOME kind of sign, or something, that his spirit was still with me. I want to believe so much that when it's my turn to go, Mike will be there waiting for me.

I just don't know. I think that to judge how you spend eternity (forever and ever) based on a normal human life span (60 to 80 years) doesn't seem right. Say a man lives his whole life in a good and decent way. His daughter gets raped. In a fit of anger, he kills the rapist and is killed himself. He would go to Hell. Another man is a thief, murder and rapist his whole life. On his deathbed, he honestly repents and accepts the Lord. He would go to Heaven. Doesn't sit well with me.

I think the Hindu idea of Karma makes much more sense. You have to keep doing it until you get it right.

[Gato Moteado]

78. yeah that deathbed salvation loophole really sucks for people that....

...planned on repenting but never made it to their deathbed.

[MotorCityMan]

79. True; like the whole no meat on Fridays thing

Eat a hamburger within this 24 hour period and you'll BURN IN HELL FOREVER!!!

[Gato Moteado]

80. its like the muslims with their pork bullshit.......

if you don't eat meat, do it for health reasons or because you respect all life. if you do it because the pope or some imam tells you to, i think you're goofy.

[pleah]

51. No, not any more.

I just got to the point where I decided I didn't want to live my life afraid all the time.

[Gato Moteado]

53. that's not very doubleplusgood....it's absolutely imperative that you....

...live your life in fear. the terrorists want to attack you personally. they hate you personally because of your freedoms. until you believe that you can never be safe.

please come back to the programming center for reprogramming. if you don't we will be forced to send you to hell.

[pleah]

56. lol Personnally, if there was a hell, I think

I would rather be there than heaven. Because living in a golden palace droning along for eternity worshiping IT is just too boring. Besides if there was a supreme being, why does IT let so much death, hate and destruction go on?

[Gato Moteado]

58. i don't know the answer......

...and in fact i probably have the same exact questions as you do.

i don't believe in hell. and really, i don't subscribe to any dogma that tries to define god, heaven or hell. i only know that i don't have the answers and that puts me in the same boat as the ancient men of cloth or rulers who wrote all the ancient texts.

i only hope that there is a higher meaning to our existence and that, at the right time, we will all be aware of it and it will be good.

but who the fuck knows?

[pleah]

60. Sometimes I feel like your damned if you do, damned if you don't.

:shrug:

[Gato Moteado]

62. so you DO believe in hell?

nt

[pleah]

67. Maybe I should have used the sarcasm thingy.

:crazy:

[Gato Moteado]

68. me too!

nt

[Forkboy]

61. I believe that death is party time for the worms and that's all.

And to be honest, for me that's good enough.

[Gato Moteado]

63. and you might just be right.....

..of course, you could be wrong.

[Forkboy]

64. There's the gamble.

;)

[spoony]

69. If the idea of hell appeals to you, you don't understand the concept.

Whoever believes in it should never do so with any degree of happiness. And those who don't should truly never wish it so for their own sadistic appetites.

[Gato Moteado]

74. maybe this is the first time i've ever agreed with spoony

nt

[spoony]

84. Perhaps some planets have aligned or something

or Rosemary had her baby, lol.

[SidneyCarton]

71. No fire, no lake of brimstone, no leering devil with strategic pineapple placement duties...

Hell need not be so dramatic. Hell will be spending eternity knowing that one had a choice, and chose poorly. That one could have been kind, and was cruel. That one could have been generous, and was selfish. That one could have lifted those around you, and instead thrust them down in your own rapacious desire to rise or stay up. And finally, hell is realizing that all the things you worked and labored for your entire life, were meaningless, and have no bearing on eternity. That you traded love, joy and hope for that which really mattered. That is hell, realizing that you could have been far better and weren't because you didn't want to be. And having no one to blame but yourself.

I do not envy Mr. Helms, or Mr. Snow or any other being their date with eternity. I have sins of my own to repent of.

[wildbilln864]

72. nope! nt

[proud2BlibKansan]

73. I believe there is Snow in hell

[Gato Moteado]

75. there will be if the cubs win the world series this year

bank on it

[lynettebro440]

83. I'm hoping there is an after life

one that doesn't have bush's or reagans anywhere in it. I'd like to do it over again but without those two families in power. It might be great.

[InvisibleTouch]

86. I believe we make our own hell...

...in this life as well as the next, if there should be one (of which I'm not at all certain, but it would be nice to think so). If you send out hate and misery into the world, that's what you'll get back. That concept would seem to be contradicted by all the rethuglican fat cats who send out hate and misery into the world and never seem to give it a second thought, who live in wealth and privalege - but imagine if, after death, they're forced to experience the effects of everything they did in this life, to realize that everything is connected, and that the harm they've done to others will ultimately come back around to affect them as well. Then they will create their own hell for themselves out of sheer guilt and horror. I don't think there's some supernatural being that sits in judgment over who's punished and who's rewarded; we do it all ourselves. That's the true nature of karma, IMO - not even to get into the concept of reincarnation (which I also can't be certain of, but suspect is accurate) - which is far more complex, I think, than we've been led to believe.

In answer to your question whether Tony Snow and Jesse Helms are in hell right now, I believe the answer is Yes - a "hell" of their own making. Will they be there forever? That's up to them and what they learn from their current experience.

[ChimpersMcSmirkers]

87. No, I don't believe. Helms would be worthy, while Snow would not.

[DerekG]

88. I always liked C.S. Lewis's take

It might have been in The Problem of Pain, where he ventured that the descent is not predicated on a judgment; it is only the natural and inevitable outcome of being ignorant to the fact that the self is interconnected with God and the welfare of Man. The hellfire is not literal; it is merely the closest approximation we have for the torture of being separated from the love of the Divine. And that separation is self-imposed, as Hell is locked from the inside.

He had a nice way of putting things.

[JerseygirlCT]

97. That makes some sense to me

God's love is always available. We may indeed choose to turn it away. I just also think that since time has no control over God, anyone can eventually choose to come into that love.

[Marrah_G]

91. Nope- no hell in belief system

However the karma racked up by those two must be substantial. Perhaps next time they will learn and evolve.

[leeroysphitz]

94. Delete this if you want but fuck Jesse Helms.

He was an ugly, vicious, gleefully racist monster and I'm GLAD he's dead and wish he had die much sooner when it would have meant something.

[JerseygirlCT]

95. I'm a Christian, and no, I do not.

Even though my fallible human self might wish for that sort of vengeance toward the likes of Helm, I do not believe that the all-loving God has the same flaw. Even such a deeply flawed man, full of hate, will be met with compassion and love. And given the time needed, perhaps, to come fully into union with the divine.

[Sewsojm]

96. I didn't use to but,

Ever since that BASTARD and his minions stole the white house I've changed my mind.

[frogmarch]

107. I sometimes say I hope

a certain person rots in hell, although I don't believe in the concept of hell - or heaven, or any other kind of afterlife. When living things die, that's it. They cease to exist.

[RedCappedBandit]

108. religion is silly and primitive

no, i don't believe in such fairytales.