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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 06:12 PM
Original message
Deeply Disturbing
Deeply Disturbing

by Steven D
Wed Jul 16th, 2008 at 01:21:19 PM EST


The Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals (one level below the Supreme Court) has just ruled that Bush was granted the unlimited power by Congress to detain indefinitely anyone in the United States (you, me, your teenage son or daughter, anyone at all) merely be declaring them an enemy combatant. In a split 5-4 decision the Fourth Circuit also held that said enemy combatant was permitted to "challenge" that detention, but failed to elaborate on what form that challenge should take. From the NY Times:

President Bush has the legal power to order the indefinite military detentions of civilians captured in the United States, the federal appeals court in Richmond, Va., ruled on Tuesday in a fractured 5-to-4 decision.

But a second, overlapping 5-to-4 majority of the court, the United States Court of Appeals for the Fourth Circuit, ruled that Ali al-Marri, a citizen of Qatar now in military custody in Charleston, S.C., must be given an additional opportunity to challenge his detention in federal court there. An earlier court proceeding, in which the government had presented only a sworn statement from a defense intelligence official, was inadequate, the second majority ruled. <...>

The court effectively reversed a divided three-judge panel of its own members, which ruled last year that the government lacked the power to detain civilians legally in the United States as enemy combatants. That panel ordered the government either to charge Mr. Marri or to release him. The case is likely to reach the Supreme Court.

How helpful the decision will be to Mr. Marri remains to be seen, as the majority that granted him some relief was notably vague about what the new court proceeding should look like. In that respect, Tuesday’s decision resembled last month’s decision from the United States Supreme Court granting habeas corpus rights to prisoners held at Guantánamo Bay.

Mr. Marri is the only person on the American mainland known to be held as an enemy combatant. The government contended, in a declaration from the defense intelligence official, Jeffrey N. Rapp, that Mr. Marri was a Qaeda sleeper agent sent to the United States to commit mass murder and disrupt the banking system. <...>

Jonathan L. Hafetz, a lawyer for Mr. Marri with the Brennan Center for Justice at the New York University School of Law, called the Fourth Circuit’s decision deeply disturbing. “This decision means the president can pick up any person in the country — citizen or legal resident — and lock them up for years without the most basic safeguard in the Constitution, the right to a criminal trial,” Mr. Hafetz said.


This is a "deeply disturbing" opinion, even though it comes from only one appellate court, and one of the more conservative ones at that. It points up the danger of allowing Republican Presidents to appoint judges to the Federal bench who have authoritarian and partisan leanings. I have little doubt that the same justices who signed off on this grant of unlimited power to the Executive Branch would have seen the matter very differently if a Democrat held the office of President.

more...

http://www.boomantribune.com/story/2008/7/16/132119/723
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 06:16 PM
Response to Original message
1. Scary as hell. I would be willing towager that the majority on that panel were put there by
Republicans. Insidious is the word that comes to mind when considering the influence of the Repukes.
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librechik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #1
14. 4th circuit a deeply RW panel in NC--military imprisonment in NC deliberately chosen
Edited on Wed Jul-16-08 07:31 PM by librechik
so as to give jurisdiction to a panel most likely to give the most draconian judgments against enemy combatants.
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The Wizard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-17-08 08:35 AM
Response to Reply #1
24. Insidious is a good start,
but totalitarian also comes to mind. The vulgar invectives are too long to list.
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 06:18 PM
Response to Original message
2. If average Joe only knew.
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populistdriven Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-17-08 09:39 AM
Response to Reply #2
26. The average Joe was caught by this guy 8 years ago
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AverageJoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-17-08 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #2
47. Hey, I'm not sure I can fix this by myself
but I appreciate the vote of confidence! ;)

Seriously, though, this is scary as hell. Not surprising, but scary.
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-17-08 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #47
49. I still believe in you Joe.
But reports are coming over the wire that you go to bed each night and somewhat sleep!!

Stop it!! You'll need to work 24/7 to even begin to straighten out this mess!
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TomInTib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 06:19 PM
Response to Original message
3. I wonder what would happen if the next President were to throw the current one in jail.
And throw away the key.
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AndyTiedye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. Or if the Current One Threw the President-Elect in Jail to Keep Him from Taking Office
Edited on Wed Jul-16-08 06:29 PM by AndyTiedye
:scared:

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TomInTib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. Whoa!
Now that's a disturbing thought.
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biermeister Donating Member (425 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-17-08 11:03 AM
Response to Reply #9
32. or if he just declared an emergency
and triggered PDD51. He could temporarily suspend the election and the constitution AND lock anyone who complained about it.

Now that, boys & girls, is pretty scary.
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 07:20 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. He'll do that on the grounds of the New Yorker cover
:P
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The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-17-08 06:09 AM
Response to Reply #11
21. Well, if there is ONE guy in America
Who doesn't get 'satire'...
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The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-17-08 06:15 AM
Response to Reply #6
22. There are a handful of events
that would touch off a massive march across the nation to DC.

That would be one of them.
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AndyTiedye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-17-08 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #22
39. Across the Nation is Not Marchable
Edited on Thu Jul-17-08 12:43 PM by AndyTiedye
It would take far too long, even for those who could do such a thing.

It's almost 3000 miles!

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The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-17-08 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #39
41. ...
Did you not receive your DU complimentary pair of 'Revolution Roller Skates'?!?

I'd complain to the mods!
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barbtries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-17-08 05:58 AM
Response to Reply #3
17. dancing in the streets
welcoming him with flowers...
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wildbilln864 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 06:22 PM
Response to Original message
4. And don't throw that Constitution in my face!
It's just a goddamned piece of paper! :yoiks:
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loveable liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 06:22 PM
Response to Original message
5. So can congress pass a law stating it is illegal to detain us?
Edited on Wed Jul-16-08 06:26 PM by loveable liberal
I'm just curious. (you know, aside from habaeus corpus)


edit: to let people know I know about HC
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tekisui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 08:03 PM
Response to Reply #5
16. They could,
or they could pass a law that legalizes it and retroactively absolves previous abuses as immune from punishment.
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barbtries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-17-08 05:59 AM
Response to Reply #5
18. sure, and he'll veto it
and congress will say oh well. they'll say we tried.
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progressoid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 06:41 PM
Response to Original message
7. If ya ain't guilty this don't matter to you. Or something like that.
It's always hard to remember what excuse the RW will come up with.
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barbtries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-17-08 06:00 AM
Response to Reply #7
19. that's the one my own son used on me
when i told him i wouldn't switch my cell to verizon because they save everything for the gov't. what do you care? i said i care because i have a constitutional right to privacy.
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pipi_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-17-08 08:24 AM
Response to Reply #19
23. This one always steams me up no matter who says it
Mostly I hear it from the "other side", but yeah, it can come from just about anywhere

What I'd like to do...just to demonstrate the importance of privacy...is to be able to conduct random searches of these people's property and persons. In the case of a kid who doesn't understand the right to privacy, show him how it feels to have his bedroom ripped apart and his personal belongings rifled through.

It might take only once...it might take two or three or more times...before the concept sinks in...oh, and include the phrase, "If you don't have anything to hide, then why worry?"

As for RW nuts who think that makes sense, same thing. Only make it their whole house...car...financial records...health records...what they read...what they buy....

Maybe then they'll get it.

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ColbertWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 06:49 PM
Response to Original message
8. I could not agree more with you.
It points up the danger of allowing Republican Presidents to appoint judges to the Federal bench who have authoritarian and partisan leanings.
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barbtries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-17-08 06:01 AM
Response to Reply #8
20. that is the single most important reason
to vote for obama. vote for obama!
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Phred42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 06:57 PM
Response to Original message
10. Just in time for Marshal Law
coming so a town near you this Fall.
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Jackpine Radical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-17-08 09:57 AM
Response to Reply #10
27. Marshal Law...is tht the guy they hired
to replace Marshal Dillon in Dodge?
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stimbox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-17-08 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #27
31. no, that was marshal arts. n/t
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 07:27 PM
Response to Original message
12. KO & Turley discussing this now
and the BUsh crimes hearing.
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midnight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 07:29 PM
Response to Original message
13. A legal opinion does not make it legal.... I suppose the
ACLU will have to make sure we have that right too.
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-17-08 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #13
29. Until it goes to the SCOTUS, it certainly does. n/t
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Olney Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 07:37 PM
Response to Original message
15. The travesty of justice never stops under this cabal.
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jazzjunkysue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-17-08 09:20 AM
Response to Original message
25. Where are the so-called libertarians on this? Where are they? I thought there were
guys in the woods living with twigs on their heads eating canned dinners, doing everything they could to protect themselves from the government.

Where are these guys? Where's the outcry?

I've had so-called conservatives in my face my whole life. Why did they allow their economy and dollar to be ruined?

We actually need some real conservatives. What we've got are short sighted opportunists hiding behind the conservative label.
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Papa Boule Donating Member (363 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-17-08 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #25
35. They'll show up again
when it's a Democrat who has the power. Then suddenly these issues, rights, protections, and the precious Constimatution will be sacrosanct again.

Well, maybe they'll show up again.

Maybe they won't. Maybe politics don't matter anymore. Maybe the majority of the country is possessed of the ideology of authoritarianism, and that's the death march they're all hopelessly committed to--a march toward a supreme, all-powerful leader in whom all the powers of government are concentrated. Just for the sake of having such a leader. Even if it means they themselves will suffer.

Maybe they view abuse as "love," and loyalty to and support of an abuser as something praiseworthy that will get them loved. Like the patterns in many abusive homes. Part of getting along with and being accepted by an abuser is to adopt a position of personal powerlessness and therefore being dutifully unthreatening. Abusers appreciate this and reward it with "acceptance." So no one challenges or threatens the expansions of the abuser's control and power.

By the way, "so-called conservatives" is right. Those "conservatives" pitched the Constitution overboard in a blink when the right authoritarian wearing the right fig leaf (the war on terra) came along.

And that's one reason I think this march toward authoritarianism and tyranny is pathologic and compulsive, not political. They know the clock is ticking down on this administration, and a Democrat may soon have those powers. Yet they compulsively, shortsightedly continue to invest the executive branch with power that likely cannot be taken back.

It's as if they cannot help themselves.
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jazzjunkysue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-18-08 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #35
57. Or, maybe, they know they already have the election rigged and we're
installing a senile old idiot into the oval office.
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L0oniX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-17-08 10:38 AM
Response to Original message
28. Nazi tactics anyone?
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windoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-17-08 10:44 AM
Response to Original message
30. Most people I know find a police state
Edited on Thu Jul-17-08 10:50 AM by windoe
terrifying. I had friends living in the woods ranting about corporate takeover in the 80s!! They still exist, believe me, they have been more prepared for these times than most, but you won't see most of these people on the streets, they are just as afraid for their safety and well being as you and I .

I have grown afraid of the police in my own country, I am afraid. I do not feel more safe, I feel less safe. I have to do a lot of traveling soon and I am very anxious about coming across Joe Bubba Police Tyrant who doesn't like the way I look, and I am angry too, for losing trust in my country.

These are frightening times, can I just say that, and I think we all need to support each other, this will be our strength.


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jeff30997 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-17-08 11:06 AM
Response to Original message
33. Old scumbag Stalin...
Must be LHAO in hell!
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Faygo Kid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-17-08 11:26 AM
Response to Original message
34. January 20 is a very long five months away. Who knows what he has in store for us.
Five months is a long time.
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LSK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-17-08 12:28 PM
Response to Original message
36. are these judges even vaguely familiar with the Constitution???
Or what this country is all about?????

I can not fathom how any judge could rule this way.

Really sad.
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nam78_two Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-17-08 12:32 PM
Response to Original message
37. What the hell is wrong with these judges? nt
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enki23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-17-08 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. they're fucking republicans
at least, that's the proximate cause. ultimately? maybe they got dropped on their heads a lot.
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nam78_two Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-17-08 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #38
40. Sounds about right.nt
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Maestro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-17-08 01:53 PM
Response to Original message
42. Extremely disturbing
We are going to go back to the paranoid days of J Edgar Hoover keeping files on anyone and everyone without the slightest bit of credible reason. Here, they just have to say he or she was suspected of being "enemy combatant."
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FirstLight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-17-08 03:00 PM
Response to Original message
43. I hate to say I told you so, BUT
Edited on Thu Jul-17-08 03:01 PM by Journalgrrl
to all those who thought it couldn't be possible for the cabal to get any scarier, for all those who said I was a fatalist, and those who thought that martial law and a cancellation of the elections were just "silly"....


I really hate being correct in my doomsday thoughts about this man and his evil cohorts.
I guess it may be time to start creating our alternative avenues for communication, my friends. The internet, our Phones, mail, even our general conversations are no longer our own... Nobody is going to cuff these guys anytime soon. We are on our own and the worst case scenarios may need to be re-examined.

Call me nuts, but I am sure glad I live in the mountains, it will be harder for them to find ME, when the shit hits the fan and they start rounding people up!

:hide:



edit:typos!
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Mr. Ected Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-17-08 03:24 PM
Response to Original message
44. But It's the FREEPERS Who Rail Against Activist Judges!
Yet another case of right wing hypocrisy.

Then again...couldn't Obama name Bush and Cheney enemy combatants the moment they leave office?

Save us the time and expense of an impeachment, that's for sure!
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Papa Boule Donating Member (363 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-17-08 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #44
50. BINGO!
Remember the hues and cries over "legislating from the bench" and the outrage over Gore calling the Constitution a "living, breathing document" subject to interpretation suiting the times?

HA!

But the Pivot is coming. That's the day in 2009 when the conservative authoritarian pundits do a 180 on all these issues and call for a do-over.

Take your Dramamine. And hold your sides. It's gonna be head spinning and funny.

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libnnc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-17-08 03:26 PM
Response to Original message
45. kicking
'cause it's all I can do

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desktop Donating Member (263 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-17-08 03:37 PM
Response to Original message
46. So I guess this will be all over the main stream media, ....Not.
But it does look like you should feel free to chow down on Tomatoes again.
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MessiahRp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-17-08 03:42 PM
Response to Original message
48. Didn't the SCOTUS ruling cover this?
I thought they basically reinstated habeus corpus with their ruling?

Rp
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Kaleko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-17-08 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #48
51. The SCOTUS DID restore habeas corpus on June 20, 2008.
Watch Cenk from The Young Turks http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhhHkhQ-bO0

laying out why it is great to have habeas corpus back.

I don't understand how the ruling by a lesser court can nullify the Supreme's ruling.

...waiting for Constitutional experts to chime in on this one...

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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-17-08 04:33 PM
Response to Original message
52. So THAT's why Congress should've read the USA Patriot ACT.
BTW: DUers did bring it up at the time.
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libnnc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-18-08 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #52
58. kicking
'cause it's all I can do
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-17-08 04:38 PM
Response to Original message
53. The majority justices are criminals. Impeach them.

There needs to be an accounting. This is a criminal act, the unlawful detention of citizens, and
the justices are not judges, they're criminals. Just like the justices who endorsed the war as
legal are war criminals.

Straighten your backbone, there are a lot of government officials in this Vichy government who
need to be reminded by loss of their jobs that they can't endorse tyranny.

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FunMe Donating Member (184 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-17-08 05:04 PM
Response to Original message
54. Great news ... in 2009 Karl Rove will be arrested!
Now THAT would be something. President Obama can simply label him "enemy combatant" and puff he's gone. Directly to jail. Without perp walk, just gone! To Jail forever!

All this will backfire big time.

KARMA ... how sweet.
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DWilliamsamh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-17-08 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #54
56. I know that sounds sweet, but lets hope not. I hope Obama has more respect for the Constitution
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DWilliamsamh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-17-08 05:06 PM
Response to Original message
55. I don't wonder at all what the court would have done if a Democrat was in Office.
They would have reversed the law, and ordered the prisoner's immediate release. And Congress would have alREADY started impeachment hearings because of the abuses we all know, instead of trying to write the abuses into law, as objectively unconstitutional as that new law might be.

I have been trying for a couple YEARS now to let people know what the Military Commissions Act of 2006 REALLY did. And what it did WAS THIS.

It made the freedom of any citizen of the US subject to the whim and word of the POTUS. Republican's LOVE that idea with a Republican President....but not so much with a Democrat.
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