Interesting article about college - and those who can't do it.

[MonkeyFunk]

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200806/college

Very interesting article about a man who teaches English 101 and 102 and how few of his students can actually learn the basics of what he's teaching.

I know people who teach at colleges, and they consistently complain about how so many of their students can't do the work. Not just because they're not "at that level" but because they just haven't learned the basics of critical thinking, research, and composition. They can't form a thesis and express it.

How do we resolve this? When I went to college, I already knew those things - I was taught them in public school. But from what I hear, most kids who graduate from High School aren't able today to write a coherent paper.

Do we need remedial school? What do community colleges do? How do we provide what should be basic education to adults?

Please, read the article - it's not long and he makes some great points.

[cbayer]

1. I think it's the one track educational system that is to blame.

Why should college be the goal for everyone? I wish we could give kids more options for technical or vocational education?

I could get a BA in English any time I needed one (hard crossword clue?), but have you tried to get a good diesel mechanic recently?

[Heidi]

3. Apprenticeship programs, linked to businesses and vocational schools,

would be a great place to start, in my opinion. There are some trade associations in the US that are trying to get this done, but I fear it's a long, long process because it challenges our (Americans') way of thinking about education. :hi:

ETA: I completely agree with you.

[cbayer]

6. They can't find enough people to install wind and solar power projects in SoCal.

I would love to see big businesses that are developing new green technology start apprenticeship programs for kids that don't belong in traditional education systems.

:hi:

[NashVegas]

25. Colleges Now Offer Degrees For What Used to Be High School Level Vocational Certs.

Lately I've seen some local tech. school offering degrees in "Construction management."

Middle Tennessee State has a program for 4 year degrees in Concrete Management. I shit you not.

In keeping with its reputation for growing with a changing world, Middle Tennessee State University (MTSU) is home of the Concrete Industry Management (CIM) program. This Program is a joint initiative between MTSU and leaders from the concrete industry. It provides students the opportunity to enter a field that has an urgent need for professionals with the skills to meet the growing demands of a progressive, changing concrete industry.

The four-year Bachelor of Science degree in Concrete Industry Management is offered by the Engineering Technology & Industrial Studies Department in the College of Basic and Applied Sciences. The goal is to produce graduates who are:
- Broadly educated
- Adept at oral and written communication
- Proficient in basic math and science
- Knowledgeable of concrete technology and techniques
- Able to manage people and systems
- Capable of promoting products or services related to the industry

Luckily it's a state school and tuition is only $4k a year.

The kid who gets an IT BA has a huge edge getting interviewed for a data manipulation job over someone who may have spent equal amounts of time learning on their own.

Anyone who says a college education is necessary for designing, delivering and maintaining a top notch site is full of shit.

Businesses demand that BA to keep out "people who aren't our kind."

[Gormy Cuss]

98. There was a strong vocational high school system in place 30-40 years ago

and the trades often recruited from among the graduates based on teacher recommendations. Most of my older sibs acquired their apprentice-level skills in high school. They all had four years of English, history, and mathematics requirements too, so it's not as if they were unschooled in academics. They just used the rest of the day for skill building that was more appropriate for students who weren't headed to college.

[MonkeyFunk]

4. I agree with that

but that was true 30 years ago. Back in NY, we DID have vocational training - BOCES. Is that all gone now?

[cbayer]

5. I have a kid who had no place in our current educational system.

He's a visual-spatial kind of kid. Left-hander, 'what color is the sky in your world?' kind of kid.

I was unable to find any vocational training for him unless he had a GED or HS diploma. He will never have a GED or HS diploma. He would have flourished in a school that taught him a hands on trade. Instead, he was tortured for 10 years, then I let him drop out.

I think Europe does a much better job in this area.
'

[MonkeyFunk]

8. I will disagree with the notion

that a kid can't be taught to formulate a thesis and express it. That's what this article is about.

[cobalt1999]

17. My wife teaches at the local university.

There are many kids in her class that have no business being in college, it's just what they think they should do.

[XemaSab]

74. College is its own thing, and most of what it teaches you is how to do well in college

Unfortunately, without college most jobs are dead-end retail jobs.

Yeah, there are some construction and IT jobs that are well-paying and don't require a degree, but most of the jobs out there are do-you-want-fries-with-that McJobs.

[JerseygirlCT]

84. As I've gotten further away from my college years

I've appreciated what I learned there more. Not factual stuff but the how to think critically, how to communicate effectively, how to analyze information stuff. It's made me a whole-hearted fan of a liberal arts education. It's not about the immediate job prospects or a skill set that immediately translates into a career as much as its about skills that enable you to succeed at just about anything.

[JerseygirlCT]

29. I think I disagree

I think we ought to be educating every child in public high school as if he or she is heading to college. I think starting them on these "technical" or "vocational" tracks simply pigeonholes too many kids as not able enough academically. It lets the system off the hook.

If what the student wants is to become a diesel mechanic - great. But let's have him or her become an extremely well-educated mechanic.

I want the highest possible standards set. Then I want us to do everything to ensure that each child is given what he or she needs to meet those standards. I also want every child to believe that a college education is within the realm of possibilities should they want one.

I've seen too many kids who were simply "tracked" into being ignored for four years at the big public HS in my town. They weren't stand-outs in any particular way, so it was far less trouble to just assume they wouldn't be going far. Finding out what it would take to get them ignited and interested and ambitious for themselves was simply too much trouble to take.

[XemaSab]

75. Not having tracks seems to mean that the teacher teaches to the slowest students

and everyone gets a mediocre education. :shrug:

[JerseygirlCT]

83. That's a problem, too

I think our standards are far too relaxed. And that kids live down to those lowered expectations. In fact, everyone starts to do the same.

And from what I've seen, those "tracks" haven't really meant a better education for the better students, and they haven't really been assigned with care. The kids who get along well with teachers, or have some niche (sports, arts, etc) thrive - regardless of how hard they work. The others... if they don't stand out in some way, they seem too often to get parcelled out wherever. Too much trouble to look at them each as individuals and try to work with that individual to find the key to success.

It seemed that desire to categorize kids is infiltrating colleges, too. Too many of the schools we looked at were eager to have kids know what major they intended going in. That's nuts! They haven't even experienced half of what they can take in college. How can they know that a sociology or anthropology or geology course isn't going to just light their fire?

[XemaSab]

89. I went to junior college for three years and it was time well spent

By the time I went to university, I was pretty sure I wanted to study natural resource science, and after a year of goofing off in university, I changed my major to soils.

I don't regret a thing.

Except not taking that second calculus class to qualify to be a hydrologist. :banghead:

[JerseygirlCT]

92. Well, I dodged that first attempt at calculus!

But I was one of those people who did pretty much know what I was going to study. If it wasn't theater or English, it might have been history. But they all require a lot of the same skills - reading and writing. And little math or science!

[XemaSab]

94. Calculus wasn't as bad as it's made out to be

I guess part of why I studied the sciences is 'cause I can read history or literature in my free time, but would I ever do math in my free time? No. :P

[JerseygirlCT]

97. LOL

Actually, the analytical part of what I do now is fun. I'm not scared of the math in a practical application. But I never enjoyed it as a subject.

Ironically, that might end up my kid's major. He likes it!

[NYC_SKP]

2. Briefly, our K12 schools are broken.

I didn't need to read the article to know that, but will read it now.

[pnwmom]

7. It's the damn 5 paragraph essay that is largely to blame.

With its 11 sentence paragraphs.

This horrible format is taught in the belief that it will help students manage short essays in standardized tests, and it has ruined the teaching of English.

The 5 paragraph essay is a particular format that is NOT based on understanding material, developing a thesis, and laying it out in a logical manner. No real writer, or any thoughtful person, would write like this.

The first paragraph is supposed to contain your three part thesis. Each of the three body paragraphs supports one of the three parts of your thesis -- but they're not logicaly connected together -- you're not developing an idea. The final paragraph concludes by restating your thesis.

Each of the body paragraphs contains 11 sentences. The first sentence introduces the topic. Then you write three sets of three sentences -- first an assertion or quotation, then two points to back it up.

This is INSANE and results in incredibly boring, tedious, useless essays. But they look like essays and they somehow result in passing grades on standardized tests. And since that's all anyone seems to care about these days, the vast majority of high schools teach this otherwise worthless format.

[JerseygirlCT]

30. Oh goodness, yes! Drives me batty!

I spent a fair amount of time with my oldest, persuading him that though this stupid format was what the teacher required, it was by no means how one really ought to be writing an essay.

It seems to teach kids to churn out these essays with the "correct" number of paragraphs, and the "correct" number of sentences in each paragraph, all while saying absolutely nothing. Or to be more accurate, saying one small thing, over and over again.

[Recursion]

32. Eh? I like the 5 paragraph essay

Then again my only professional writing has been doing edu-marketing copy ("floods are the deadliest severe weather phenomenon in the world. This pamphlet tells you how to use our product to stay safe when a flood happens..."). For doing that kind of copy, being able to write a 5 paragraph essay quickly and reliably is crucial.

I'll come at this the other way and blame the sense that there is something ineffable and "unlearnable" about writing, and that any written expression is unimpeachable if it is sincere. Writing a clear, concise essay is a skill that can be taught and learned, and I don't think it's a bad thing to know how to do. Does it stifle very creative writers? Probably, just like multiplication tables and algebra 1 stifle creative mathematicians, but in both cases they are skills and disciplines the student should have.

[Iris]

34. I do, too and if people who really don't care about learning to write can at least do this,

then at least it's something.

Besides, the 5 paragraph essay helps you learn to organize your thoughts and if you are capable of moving beyond it, all the better.

[Recursion]

36. It's really about organizing your thoughts

When I tutor I notice a lot of kids just kind of ramble whatever comes into their head at the time rather than writing an outline first (is that still taught?). I mean, I get that topic sentence, 3 supporting sentences, counter argument, refutation, and conclusion is boring, but it really is a good way to make sure you have your thoughts straight and to make sure your reader understands what your thoughts are.

[JerseygirlCT]

38. From what I've seen though

it's the form being given precedence over the content. It's having the correct number of sentences in a paragraph and the correct number of paragraphs. It's about restating your topic sentence in your conclusion - not the arguments you've used to reach that conclusion.

[Iris]

40. you have to start somewhere...

[JerseygirlCT]

43. You do. And the "oreo" format is probably fine in 3rd

grade. But if they haven't moved beyond that in a couple of years, then something's wrong. I think the problem is in using the format as the end instead of a means toward that end.

[Recursion]

42. Yes, and that's a good place to start

You're exactly right, it's form over content. But that's a good thing at that level. If they have the form as something clearly learned, something they can rattle off without breaking a sweat, finding the right arguments becomes a lot easier later.

[JerseygirlCT]

44. Surely. I often pushed my older kid into writing an outline

before digging into that paper. Organize your thoughts, know what you want to say. (All this advice I rarely took myself! I was the awful one up at 6 am, typing the paper off the top of my head. Man, if I'd had a computer back then, I could have gotten up at 7 am instead!) It was often a struggle to get him to see why that matters.

Interestingly, I think he learned a great deal with his college essay - because I kept sending him back to the drawing board. "Try again; you're not really saying anything" "Try again, that's pretty insincere, isn't it?" "Where did you mean this to go? What are you really trying to say?"

I was a big PITA, but he ended up with a terrific little piece, and more importantly, learned the value in really working at it.

[XemaSab]

77. I have learned the value of an outline

I'm a pretty good writer, so I can usually just ramble and not get caught.

The value of an outline is when you're writing something REALLY long and boring. Putting together an outline gives you a lifeline that you can drag yourself hand-over-hand across. :P

[JerseygirlCT]

82. LOL, exactly!

I'm far better organized now than I was then - sometimes I suppose you just have to live and learn.

[Iris]

39. I agree!

I'm a tutor, too!

[JerseygirlCT]

37. Stifle on in the short-term, though

Those technical skills are really the building blocks without which any creativity cannot flourish for long.

[QC]

47. I disagree.

I have been teaching college writing for nineteen years, and many of my students have come to me without even the slightest sense of how to write an essay. All they did in high school was paragraph exercises in preparation for the state's all-consuming testing regimen ("Write a paragraph about your first pet/a place you love/someone you learned something from/what you hope to be doing in five years") and they genuinely do not have any sense of organization.

The old five paragraph structure is a good way to introduce the basics. It's certainly not the only way to write an essay, or even a particularly good one, but for a student who doesn't know how to organize an essay, it's a start. It's not where you want to end up, of course, but for someone who is floundering, the five paragraph format can be a lifeline.

If we are looking for a culprit, I don't think it's the five paragraph essay, which has been around for decades, so much as the fact that most people don't read anymore.

[knitter4democracy]

51. Best way to teach essay writing is for students to read good essays.

Hard to fit it in the curriculum unless you're teaching a remedial writing class or somesuch, though.

In my second year of teaching, I got to teach a remedial essay class, and I made the kids do drafts and read good essays and share with their peers. It was amazing what they were able to accomplish that quarter--but I didn't have to worry about the rest of the curriculum. All we had to do was work on essays and anything related to them. It was really fun.

[QC]

54. Well, I do read the hell out of them in 101 and 102, but

there are limits to what you can do in a semester or two with people who simply don't read and never have (and probably won't again once they are done with the class). To make it all even worse, most academic disciplines at most colleges just do the old lecture and Scantron model of teaching. (Many give lip service to writing across the curriculum, but few actually do it.) Some places even sell lecture notes in the college bookstore: no need to read and analyze the textbook when you can just buy a set of notes.

The real marvel is not that so few of our students write well but that any of them can write at all.

[knitter4democracy]

69. I'd agree with all of that.

It's prett damn sad.

[XemaSab]

78. To argue mildly with your point

I hated the fact that in half of my classes the teacher decided to spend half the class supposedly teaching us how to write an essay. Every damn teacher has his or her own idea about how it should be done, and a HUGH amount of class time is wasted on the teacher telling us how to use footnotes like we're in fourth grade.

If English 101 wasn't just a "check the box" class (as the author of the essay in the OP puts it) then maybe not every professor would consider him or herself God's gift to aspiring writers, but dammit, I'm there to learn soil physics, not how to write a damn outline. :banghead:

[knitter4democracy]

48. Yes! Yes yes yes yes yes yes!!!

I had to teach that damn thing. It was a core component of the curriculum, and my ass would've been toast if I'd not taught it thoroughly enough. I actually had sophomores freaking out if they had 12 sentences or only 10, assuming I was counting.

Worse than that, though, are the tests themselves. I had a few students who flunked the Ohio 9th grade proficiency writing test the first time around. These were creative kids, good writers--and their essays didn't fit the mold, so they flunked. Infuriating!

[Blue Belle]

95. Screw five paragraphs...

I've read some of the papers of my fellow students and they can't even crank out one coherent paragraph. I'm one of those non-traditional students that the article talks about but I had a good basic education and have always had the ability to write. When I returned to school, I was really worried about whether my writing would be good enough, but when I did some peer review of the papers of my much younger classmates, I was appalled at their writing ability. I don't even know how these kids passed high school because, say what you want about the nuns and Catholic school, I knew how to write a research paper in the third grade. At community college you can really see where students have fallen through the cracks in our education system.

[noamnety]

9. I'm in grad school right now.

We keep getting put on teams, god help me. I saved this line from a teammate who was writing a paper with me, from one of my current classes. This is a high school teacher getting her masters in education, analyzing a website:

"The third link is How to Organize Instruction shares information on how to organize instruction."


Not sure remedial schools will do much good, if these are the people teaching in those schools.

[MonkeyFunk]

10. I was lucky enough

to have a few great teachers.

But in college, I typed papers for extra cash (and yes, typed - on a typewriter) and the Education Department papers were always the worst. Just godawful.

[JerseygirlCT]

45. That's really sad, isn't it?

And do you often dream about how much easier college would have been with a computer, printer and Word? Typing was worse than writing, any day!

[MonkeyFunk]

57. No, never

I doubt my education would've been any better. I bet half the kids sitting in class with their laptops open are just cruising on Facebook.

[Maddy McCall]

58. I can attest to this.

You are right.

[JerseygirlCT]

60. I'm just talking about writing the papers

As an English major, I did lots of that. I didn't so much mind the writing - but I was not a great typist, and I had a crummy typewriter. Getting the thing typed was much more stressful than writing it!

Now with a computer and keyboard, I type at least as fast as I think, and sometimes write better this way than on paper. It just feels like a big change to me - my son will have a pretty different experience than my own, that's for sure!

[MonkeyFunk]

70. I made lots of beer money

by typing papers the old-fashioned way. But I was a good typist, so it wasn't difficult for me.

[JerseygirlCT]

85. Wish I'd known you then!

Handing off the damned typing would have been worth a good amount of beer, I imagine. Though I probably didn't have all that much then, either!

[Blue Belle]

100. They are cruising face book...

and texting under the table. I sat by this girl in my "Media and the Environment" class and she did nothing but text the whole 2 hours of class. It actually became a distraction for me because she was constantly fiddling under the table and shaking the desk when I was trying to take notes.

[hfojvt]

11. I think he's way too negative

and he's admittedly not teaching college track students.

"I know people who teach at colleges, and they consistently complain about how so many of their students can't do the work. Not just because they're not "at that level" but because they just haven't learned the basics of critical thinking, research, and composition. They can't form a thesis and express it."

I thought myself that the problem was that the students really didn't want to do the work, not that they couldn't. Like the English teacher, they were not in my class because they wanted to be, because they wanted to learn about the subject, only because they were required to take a class of this type.

I took seven years of college, and it seems to me that very little of it was about critical thinking, or research. And since I was a math/physics major, very little of it was about composition either.

Finally, it seems to me that most of it was also useless. It was useless in gaining employment and it is useless in solving real life problems. I, with two university degrees, work at one of those jobs that Professor Supercilious says does not require a college degree - a janitor.

[kiva]

12. It's really a combination of problems.

I've talked to several English teachers who taught in public schools for years, and many have chosen to retire because they believe the schools have gutted the subject, substituting the necessity of learning grammar, spelling, and punctuation with an emphasis on "content." The problem is that it doesn't matter how brilliant your ideas are, they are worthless if you can't communicate them to others, but this is ignored.

Reading for pleasure is almost non-existent for many Americans. One survey found that the average American reads 4 books per year, while almost 25% read none (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/08/21/AR2007082101045.html). The simple fact is that many of us learned to write because we read; we may not know the grammatical rule that applies, we just know a sentence sounds funny. When I was an undergrad, in the early 90s, one history prof refused to use textbooks, instead requiring students to read five or six books, mostly novels. I love to read, and thought it was great; most of the student complained, saying they would rather read (or not read) the dullest text in existence rather than read The Jungle, The Grapes of Wrath, Rumor of War, and other books. My own students seem to think that all reading assignments are torturous punishments--and yes, this is at a college. I'm not surprised that the article's author has a hard time finding any books that all of his students have read, since we no longer are a reading culture.

Critical thinking isn't a skill many students have when they enter college--I once read that only a small percentage of freshman are considered critical thinkers, but that the vast majority of students acquire that skill by the time they graduate. I agree that it's the job of professors to encourage this ability, but it seems that many students find it almost as painful as reading. Most are far more comfortable with a black and white view of history, and find it distressing to be forced to consider that no good guys are all good, and no bad guys all bad. I can reach some students, but many simply choose not to be forced to think.

[knitter4democracy]

53. I'm often amazed by what people haven't read.

Not everyone was like my dad, though, who gave me Travels with Charley and Of Mice and Men on my 13th birthday and told me I wasn't allowed to read trash anymore.

Now that I'm taking grad-level lit classes for fun, I'm even more amazed at what English majors haven't read. In both of the two classes I've taken so far, I've only had two authors each class I hadn't read before and only a handful of pieces--and these were specialized classes focusing entirely on just one time period in British lit.

[kiva]

59. It seems to come in waves. A couple of years ago several

of my students had read the Jungle; now maybe one or two. It's too bad, because literature and history are so intertwined, it's difficult to understand one without the other. Even getting them to watch "historical" movies (to write a review) is tough, though most seem to enjoy it once they actually do it.

Wow, hadn't thought of Travels With Charlie for a long time. I had to read it for a seventh grade class, and have to admit I hated it; it was years before I read Steinbeck again, and loved him.

[JerseygirlCT]

63. I've been pretty steamed to learn that my kid

was watching movies like "Clash of the Titans" in class instead of doing the actual reading. I think that's a bad, bad trend. I've also been surprised at what is NOT on the syllabus for HS. There's a great deal I had to read then that never comes up anymore. They don't seem to have nearly the length of reading list that I did. I disinctly remember a list of 12 or so books that I had to have read before and during freshman year in HS, for instance... none of that now. It seems more like "please read a book this summer".

And I'm like you with Steinbeck. Some good stuff, but that doggie book sure wasn't one of them for me!

[knitter4democracy]

68. I agree--summer reading should be req'd.

I hated dealing with it (most wait until too late to start) when I taught, but that way we could add in some great stuff that couldn't fit in time-wise the rest of the year.

[JerseygirlCT]

62. Travels with Charley

Man I hated that book! That was a jr. year HS assignment, IIRC, and damn! Boy stories and dog stories together. YUCK. I was much happier getting home and burying myself in Austin or a Bronte or tw.

In fact, I pretty successfully avoided American Lit in college. Brit Lit is definitely my thing. And Russian. French. Just none of those "great American West... man with his animals" stuff!

[knitter4democracy]

67. *gasp* I love that book.

The best scene is where he talks the dad into letting the son learn how to be a hairdresser and that it won't make him gay.

[JerseygirlCT]

87. I don't even remember much, except hating and resenting every

single minute of it.

I'm not a pet person; don't get all gooey over animals. So there's that strike against me. And I was especially tired, at that point in my academic career, of literature and everything else being skewed toward a male perspective. (Jack London is another ugh to me). I was BORED.

Now, Grapes of Wrath was another thing entirely. Totally captivated by that.

[knitter4democracy]

103. Oh, I totally understand that.

I hit that point (the "Why is everything about guys?!" point) many times in high school, in college, and again when I taught.

In fact, when I did AP Brit Lit the first time around, I spent much of the second quarter doing women's lit (Jane Eyre and To the Lighthouse). The girls (Catholic girls school) actually complained and told me that they thought I was doing them a disservice in covering only women for awhile and questioned whether those were actually important pieces of literature. I was shocked. I really rubbed it in when both were on the AP that year. ;)

[JerseygirlCT]

61. Wow. I struggle with grasping that, I really do.

I'd be totally bereft if I couldn't read. Even losing my sight and having to depend on listening to books would be a disaster for me (I hate being read to - it's the act of reading itself that I find so pleasurable).

My older child isn't much of a book reader, though he reads periodicals constantly and newspapers. My younger is voracious, like me. His small room is wall to wall books. I'm thrilled, of course, because he doesn't do it because he's supposed to; he NEEDS to read. I get that!

That's probably why it felt like majoring in English was nearly cheating. Yes, there were papers to write, but reading was never work! (Oh, ok, a few times. I got through Paradise Lost in one night before a test. Never had an urge to revisit that one!)

I wonder what the long-term implications of what you've said are? Not good, I assume.

[XemaSab]

80. "That's probably why it felt like majoring in English was nearly cheating."

This is why I majored in soils; I didn't want to feel like I was "cheating." :P

[JerseygirlCT]

88. See, I had to take 2 stinkin' science/lab courses

Those did not thrill me in the least. One was geo. For that course, at least, I had the benefit of a couple of students who were helping out (it was a small college, no teaching assistants) who were nice enough to help me through. And the geo folks were known on campus as a very, very fun crowd.

I'd rather have been curled up with some Keats, myself. Rocks are rocks are rocks to me!

[XemaSab]

93. Geologists are partyers, and the field trips are the BEST! At least in California...

I dunno about Jersey.

Yeah, I always sucked at rock and mineral ID, but if I were to go to grad school, I'd study geology. :D

Funny story: My geomorphology teacher was this guy named Bud. His FIRST semester as a teacher he was teaching Intro to Geology. Part of the Intro class is the basic rocks and minerals lab, and there's always a test involving a bunch of rocks and minerals laid out on the table. Now Bud decided he was going to make the test SUPER easy, so he put out 25 rocks, 24 of which were granite. He said students were in TEARS... they would write something down, then go look at another specimen, erase what they'd written, write something else, go back... In short, it was a total nightmare, and he never did that again. :P

[JerseygirlCT]

99. That would have been me!

And of course, the fact that they were granite would have been totally obvious to him. But those poor kids!

I only got through psych - the other lab science I had to take - because my lab partner was willing to deal with the rats. Ugh. At least most of the tests were just big fat multiple choice things. Hard to really screw that up.

I could seriously be a perpetual undergrad, but not if I had to keep taking science. Science in the big picture can be fascinating. It's the down to the details stuff that gets me - the memorization, and especially the hands-on stuff. I don't want to play with rats, and I don't want to dissect frogs and I don't want to mix chemicals or look at rocks...

But there are enough humanities and arts classes to keep me fascinated for years and years and years.

ETA: Oh yes. The Geo folks were the party people. Nice ones, too. Very down to earth, if you'll excuse the awful pun.

[XemaSab]

79. The only grammar lesson I remember getting

was in first grade.

I didn't even know the basic parts of speech until sophomore year Latin class. Even now, I'm hard pressed to tell you any of the parts of speech beyond nouns and verbs.

I learned basic punctuation in first grade, and my second lesson in punctuation was senior year of high school.

I'm a pretty good speller, but spell-check has definitely weakened my instincts in that area.

In summary, I can usually tell you if something sounds funny, but I usually couldn't BEGIN to tell you why.

And no, I don't think my teachers did me any favors not making me learn this stuff.

[JerseygirlCT]

90. In Catholic school, we did a lot of grammar

But still the most effective teacher was my 4th grade teacher, who said: "you know what? If it sounds wrong, it probably is wrong. If it sounds right, it probably is".

She's still almost always right about that. My ear is much better than my memorization.

I was never good at identifying parts of speech, either. But I'm pretty good at knowing that something is right or wrong, or not quite right.

[knitter4democracy]

104. Don't get me started.

I used to do "Grammar and Free Reading Fridays" when I taught. Half of the block would be grammar (even sentence diagramming!), and the other half was a free reading time (as long as they were reading something, I didn't care what it was). I had to start at the very beginning on what nouns and verbs really were--and these were kids who'd had at least two years of a foreign language.

[BlooInBloo]

13. I dunno how it was in yesteryear, but undergrads are very stupid these days....

With only a few majors typically excepted (Classics, etc.).

[1]

14. unions. college is not for everyone. unions used to provide programs to apprentice people...

into careers.

well paying careers. those "provide for you and your family" careers we all would love now.

unions did that. to sustain themselves. to ensure jobs for their children, and their children's children. to build the workforce for the future.

unions did that.


unions...

[Selatius]

15. There's just not enough teachers to handle oversized classrooms. This means no one-on-one help.

One-on-one help is perhaps one of the best ways to address students who are having difficulty absorbing the material. The problem is the bigger the classroom, the less time a teacher can spend on a student who has problems. Unfortunately, there is a terrible teacher shortage in the US.

I'm currently a college student and graduate in Dec. Trust me, this section was and still is very familiar to me:

The goal of English 101 is to instruct students in the sort of expository writing that theoretically will be required across the curriculum. My students must venture the compare-and-contrast paper, the argument paper, the process-analysis paper (which explains how some action is performed—as a lab report might), and the dreaded research paper, complete with parenthetical citations and a listing of works cited, all in Modern Language Association format. In 102, we read short stories, poetry, and Hamlet, and we take several stabs at the only writing more dreaded than the research paper: the absolutely despised Writing About Literature.

I took those courses at the community college specifically because the classroom sizes were way smaller compared to the large classes for first year students at a full-size university. This meant I had more one-on-one time with the teachers. I didn't need as much help as some of the other students, but that does not mean I did not need help at some point in time.

I already have an Associates to my name, and I get my Bachelors soon. I don't regret going to community college over university as opposed to straight university. I saved a good 10K off of total college costs as a result. Then again, that highlights another massive problem with higher education in America: Out-of-pocket costs. In France, some of my fellow exchange students report that a typical Bachelors-level degree can cost anywhere between 150 Euros to 750 Euros...per YEAR out-of-pocket in tuition. The poorest students are completely subsidized and see no out-of-pocket costs whatsoever.

The government over there is THAT committed to the proposition that college education should be affordable to all. They are THAT committed to ensuring that their workforce is educated and skilled and are capable of critical thinking. A nation of people who can think critically is a nation that is even freer from the threat of tyranny. People who are capable of thinking are poor slaves compared to those who cannot think and are easily led.

Ultimately, to get back on topic, university level teachers cannot be expected to correct the problems left behind by K-12 deficiencies and abject failures. That's not what university education is supposed to be about, and it is unfair to professors to expect them to clean up for a system that is woefully underfunded and terribly understaffed.

There must be leadership here from the government, and the current situation cannot be endured forever. Skilled workers are a valuable asset to any nation, but if one takes public education for granted, pretty soon one finds he has become a second-tier nation with a second-rate education system, and with the way we are currently moving, that is ever more likely to pass with each day.

[XemaSab]

81. We've become a second-tier nation with a second-rate education system?

(Cough, cough.)

[RC]

16. A good part of our Educational System is because it is run by

collage and university graduates. All they know is book learning. Vo-Tech is looked down on as school for dummies. I taught at a Vo-Tech Center for a few years, I know what I am talking about. There were kids that could not read words. They could read numbers and translate pictures to the real world and with that could Blue-Print an engine. As long as they didn't have to read words, they were obviously smarter that your average person. If someone read the text to them, they got it.

I taught Electronics. One of my students was like this. He could go through the motions of reading, even reading out loud. But the comprehension wasn't there. But if someone else read the text to him, he usually got it. BTY, he was a B to B+ student.

The United States needs a better paradigm for the education for our children. The one we have now isn't working.

[JMackT]

18. Standardized testing.

When I was growing up, we had the TAAS test in Texas.

The difference between then and now, is we were taught from the curriculum and were expected to learn the material. Now students are taught how to take the TAXS (or whatever it is now). Schools are teaching test taking instead of material.

[QC]

50. Bingo! The test is all that matters now. I have been teaching long enough to see

a real difference now that testing has taken hold. Students can't write well because they can't reason, because learning is all about memorizing the stuff on the standardized test now.

[litlady]

19. I agree with many comments on this thread so far - have seen it first hand!

Many of my students are not prepared for my writing classes for various reasons. Some of the most common are the standardized testing emphasis in high school, lack of access to resources, and for a few because its been years since they've been in school and are unfamiliar with standards. The five paragraph essay is a big deal as well because students get to college and that is all they have done, if they have done essays at all! Critical thinking, content, and research are usually bigger issues than grammar but many students write as they talk or write as they write online (complete with emoticons). Teaching students to understand how to avoid plagiarism is one of the hardest things because most of the students have never had to learn documentation and research. So many issues and unfortunately, every school seems to be different. At the community college I taught at, they had ample remedial services available including classes before the transfer-level course. At the public university I taught at, they had absolutely no classes before the required course and thus most of the students were not at the same level. Some schools require writing tests to graduate and others don't. Some (like the university I was at) allow the student to skip all of their writing classes if they passed AP exams, which is not a good idea considering how different the skills are that are taught in college English. Some schools require freshman and junior writing and others just freshman. So there is definitely an issue of consistency throughout the college world.

Edit- BTW, I read the article and don't agree with many elements of it. Quite pessimistic in my view and it doesn't mesh with my own experiences. Of course I have seen some similar issues, but the teacher can do more to help and the author doesn't totally grasp some of these students.

[ceile]

20. My old German prof says the same thing.

The kids he teaches (freshman seminar) can't write a five paragraph paper to save their lives. He says they're really bringing down the school's (small, private university) academic reputation.

[electron_blue]

21. It used to be that if you were going to college you took 'college track' in high school.

That track gives you far more preparation than just a general high school diploma. The problem is that most people we're seeing enter college from hs have not been on the so-called college track - they haven't had 4 yrs of math, english, science and other liberal studies topics, they have often had only 2 years of math and the English they had was not college preparatory. Most students think that any hs diploma is adequate college prep, but it isn't.

Nonetheless they are going to college anyway and trying to learn more. The difficulty lies in reaching these students who are have the innate intelligence to succeed, but not the groundwork, skills and training.

[JerseygirlCT]

31. I graduated more than 25 years ago from college,

but I knew people then who simply hadn't learned how to write. Fortunately, they learned in college, thanks to lots of terrific attention (small school).

It's not that it's really that difficult (at least to write acceptably well - great writing is another thing), but it requires good teaching and the time to really work with the student.

Someone above mentioned the way writing is taught in public schools these days. I think that's a big gaping symptom of the problem.

[bicentennial_baby]

22. One of my Profs is quitting teaching for this reason, partially

She's going back to the private sector.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

23. American culture is the problem

According to American culture, you're supposed to go to school and get good grades, but you're not supposed to be an intellectual. That's the kiss of death socially. You have to pretend to be a mindless mediocrity, and if you enjoy reading, you'd better do it in secret.

The schools responded with grade inflation (higher grades for less work) and dumbed-down textbooks and supplementary materials. Parents actually protested teachers who demanded high performance from their students, because their child might not get good grades if he or she had to read and write about real literature. Why not just have the kids watch a movie and answer true/false questions about it afterwards? And who cares about grammar and spelling anyway, as long as your reader can figure out what you mean?

Of course, if you've taught, you know that the students live down to your expectations.

This trend started in the 1970s, so many of the teachers who are teaching now were brought up under this dumbed-down curriculum.

Meanwhile, in the pop culture, Dumb and Dumber isn't just the name of a movie.

The result is that a lot of students come to college without ever having been required to think about anything on a complex level.

[malaise]

24. Interesting read

Thanks

K & R

[Evoman]

26. Parents, parent, parents.

I can't blame the schools or the teachers too much. The curriculum wouldn't be dumbed down if parents didn't constantly complain to superintendants and school administrators that little Johnny isn't getting the marks he deserves.

Lets face it. Little Johnny is a fucking dumbass because his ego had been pumped up, and the expectations for him have been lowered.

Teachers teach what the curriculum demands. The curriculum is the responsibility of school administrators. Administrators cave in to the demands of parents.

Talk to an older teacher and they will tell you what the problem is right away. The second problem now is that the younger teachers are the first waves of dumbasses graduating from the college of lowered expectations.

All I know is that my parents never took my side. If I got lower marks, they asked me what the fuck was wrong with me, not what was wrong with my teacher.

[JerseygirlCT]

33. Involved parents who place a premium on education

are key, I agree.

I'm not ready to completely let educators off the hook either. I've run into quite a few, unfortunately, who seemed to be just marking time.

It does take involved parenting. It also takes educators and especially administrators who are willing to place education first.

I hate lowered expectations - whether they originate with parents, students, teachers or administrators. I think we need really high expectations for every kid - and then we need to figure out what it's going to take to help every kid reach them.

[NashVegas]

27. Stop Thinking Of It As Our Educational System - It's the Educational Industry

No one is thinking about the larger implications, let alone the morality, of admitting so many students to classes they cannot possibly pass.

Guess again. His school board is thinking about the competing colleges their tuition dollars would go to if they didn't take them in. What's happening is happening because college is now a requirement for social and economic advancement. LEARNING? HUMANITIES? Those are for people who don't get laid.

College is how we separate "us" from the great unwashed. The manager at my place of business won't even interview you if you don't have a college degree. Not even for the receptionist's job.

As for the writer of this, in his exchange with "Mrs. L," did it ever occur to him that he might not have communicated very well, what he wanted of her?

[Blecht]

28. Professor X came across as an ass to me

The impression that I get from reading the article is that this Professor X has no business teaching anything to anybody.

I found this paragraph telling:

Our textbook boils effective writing down to a series of steps. It devotes pages and pages to the composition of a compare-and-contrast essay, with lots of examples and tips and checklists. “Develop a plan of organization and stick to it,” the text chirrups not so helpfully. Of course any student who can, does, and does so automatically, without the textbook’s directive. For others, this seems an impossible task. Over the course of 15 weeks, some of my best writers improve a little. Sometimes my worst writers improve too, though they rarely, if ever, approach base-level competence.

Am I wrong, or is he saying that nobody, regardless of their preparation and ability, learns anything in his class? Maybe Professor X should look in the mirror when he is trying to find sources of the problem.



The author spends a good deal of the article discussing Ms. L., an older student in his English 101 course.

I knew that Ms. L.’s paper would fail. I knew it that first night in the library. But I couldn’t tell her that she wasn’t ready for an introductory English class. I wouldn’t be saving her from the humiliation of defeat by a class she simply couldn’t handle. I’d be a sexist, ageist, intellectual snob.

Actually, Professor X would have been doing his fucking job instead of being a self-absorbed ass. He doesn't seem to grasp the simple concept that the English 101 and English 102 classes are not about him. This statement suggests he is frightened of defending a tough decision he should have made to help a student.



There are ways to prevent this from happening. He mentioned that he taught the courses both at a private college and at a community college. It is unclear from the article in which school Professor X's experience with Ms. L. took place. Was it the community college, or was it the private college? (Shouldn't clarity in one's own writing be a job requirement for an English instructor?)

If this was at the community college, Professor X's behavior is truly inexcusable. A community college almost always offers sub-100 level English classes in which Ms. L. could learn the skills she needs to succeed in English 101, and Professor X should have advised her to take that course instead of his. If it took place at the private college, the fault would lie more with the college itself than with Professor X. Many private colleges do not have sub-100 classes for students who are ill-prepared. However, they should have some kind of standards to prevent admittance to poorly prepared potential students. They should catch Ms. L. at the admission stage before they take her money and humiliate her at the hands of the likes of Professor X. They should reject her application and direct her toward a community college. They should encourage her to reapply if she develops her skills.

<on edit: fixed a typo>

[Iris]

35. I read this when it was in the Atlanta a few weeks back and I think you are right.

He admits he's teaching in a "last chance" college so it's only reasonable to expect many of his students are not ready for college when they get there. But who is he to deny someone the opportunity to at least TRY to get an education? I'll admit I'm somewhat squeamish at the idea of marketing colleges to students as a sure way to get into a better job or to have a better life, but am equally or more squeamish about denying someone a shot at going to college.

[JerseygirlCT]

41. I agree. I also wondered about the student's level of

determination. Did she follow up with that librarian? Or throw up her hands in defeat?

I think we have to be careful to teach kids that stubborn determination along with academic subjects. Working hard at something, even if the end result isn't an excellent grade. There's value in the hard work, and often the things we work hardest at are eventually the things that are most rewarding.

I've tried to teach my own that it's less about the grade and more about the work. If a C is the result of the best and most dedicated work they were capable of in a particular class, then good. Conversely, if a B is the result of coasting through instead of working, then that B wasn't so fine, really.

[Flabbergasted]

46. Oh....you're one to judge aren't ya?

:toast:

[Blecht]

64. We need to

... turn these smiley beer glasses into real ones.

:toast:

[QC]

49. How long have you been teaching?

I think we all sometimes feel the kind of frustration that comes through in this piece. If it becomes permanent, though, it's best to look for another line of work.

[Hannah Bell]

56. that was my impression too. rather than think about how he could

help her improve, he's already decided she'll fail.

in my experience, every student who'll put some time into it can improve, if s/he comprehends the task. can't all be einstein or shakespeare, but they can improve.

it's the teacher's job to make the task & the criteria for evaluation clear. the textbook with "pages & pages" of instruction & checklists sounds like it might be part of the problem. you don't need "pages & pages" of directions to understand how to write a 5-p essay, or a research paper, & to get folks who hadn't done it to learn it, you'd show examples & walk through the process in bite-sized chunks, not have them read "pages & pages" of directions - most people get frustrated with that, poor readers especially.

he says "deficit" is a non-judgemental word. some english teacher.

[Hannah Bell]

52. i've taught english 101&esl & the remedial 90s at the community college level -

& i don't believe this.

a compare & contrast essay isn't rocket science such that 60% of the class will fail to grasp it if they apply themselves & the teacher is doing his/her job.

[lonestarnot]

55. Arg. I can't believe I read that.

He has his red pen flummoxed with a magic wand. I feel sorry for his students.

[elehhhhna]

65. I hired an MBA who couldn't write a coherent, 1 paragraph letter.

[XemaSab]

86. Was his name George Walker Bush?

:shrug:

If so, why did you hire that dick? You should have known better!

[elehhhhna]

101. No, but she was a TX A&M grad. After hiring (& later firing) her I

decided I would require a writing sample from future hires.

IMO, universities should require a writing sample before accepting a student...at least for grad school!

[XemaSab]

102. A few years ago I applied for a job

and the woman totally frog-marched me into an empty office and had me write for a half an hour.

I was sort of shocked. It really came out of the blue.

But I can *totally* understand the rationale. My mom's an editor, and so I hear all the gossip about who can't write at her office. :P

[Snarkturian Clone]

66. Colleges have lowered the bar for admission.

High schools graduate students who are at a 6th grade level because of Inclusion.

[JVS]

71. "adjunct instructor of English" does not a professor make. Not even an assistant professor.

[drexel dave]

72. The smartest people I know are self-taught

What does that say?

[XemaSab]

73. I didn't learn much about English in school

but I learned a LOT about English from my mom.

Reading good books and writing coherent essays is and has been second nature for me.

Though this sounds pessimistic, if someone doesn't have it in them by high school, I don't think it's ever going to happen.

[JerseygirlCT]

91. My husband says he was an awful writer in HS

There was a professor at our college, though, who taught him so well, that that changed. To a large extent, he know makes his living writing.

He had one of those intro to English courses, but this prof. worked them. Hard. It worked, and my husband credits the guy with teaching him to write to this day.

As an English major I had the same guy for several courses. He's really, really good, and I'm glad he's still there teaching!

[cherokeeprogressive]

76. Problem = Social Promotion. Result = Jane and Johnny Can't Read.

Too much worry about self-esteem rather than reward for learning and no reward for not.

[baldguy]

96. Not surprising, the basics of critical thinking have been actively suppressed for years.