Shell-shocked GM retirees react: 'This is a knife stab in the back'

[marmar]

from the Detroit Free Press:



Shell-shocked GM retirees react: 'This is a knife stab in the back'
BY MEGHANA KESHAVAN • FREE PRESS BUSINESS WRITER • July 16, 2008



After years of getting generous coverage, retirees from salaried jobs at General Motors Corp. reacted angrily Tuesday to the announcement that GM was ending their health benefits.

"I'm disappointed in the lifetime promise GM made to us," said John Fleming, 67, of Rochester Hills, a retired information system auditor. "We've been wiped off the books completely."

Fleming was among the shell-shocked GM retirees wondering about what they'd do next for health care, following the surprise announcement that is part of GM's latest cost-cutting plan.

Effective Jan. 1, GM will end health benefits for 97,400 salaried retirees 65 or older, their spouses and dependents. Retirees will receive an extra $300 a month in their pension checks that could be used to buy health care.

Salaried Chrysler LLC and Ford Motor Corp. retirees had to make similar choices in the past two years, after receiving years of coverage for medical, dental, vision, prescription drug and some rehabilitation services with modest co-pays.

Although half of American employers still offer health benefits to retirees, the trend is to drop retirement health plans for newer workers or freeze coverage for current retirees to save money, according to the Kaiser Family Foundation, a nonprofit health research organization.

Now GM retirees also must navigate the confusing world of Medicare -- a health insurance plan some find so bewildering that many settle for costlier plans without doing the research to find cheaper, more comprehensive ones. ......(more)

The complete piece is at: http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080716/BUSINESS01/807160357

[DS1]

1. Screwn

There must be another thread about this, but anyway, these people are never going to get new coverage at that age which they can afford.

[pampango]

34. From the article it sounds like the only retirees who are over 65

are having their medical coverage dropped. They should all be eligible for Medicare.

I have no idea if $300 a month is enough to purchase insurance that supplements what Medicare doesn't pay for. It would be woefully inadequate to pay for comprehensive medical coverage if the person were not eligible for Medicare.

[Tesha]

61. National, Single-payer health care would make the whole question moot.

I don't understand why the corporations aren't *DEMANDING*
that the U.S. shift to single-payer health care.

Tesha

[NC_Nurse]

2. Retiree will receive an extra $300 for health care per month instead?

Who can get health insurance for ANYONE over 65 for $300? Sounds like one of
McCain's healthcare proposals - Bullshit!

[Squatch]

4. Is that "extra" $300 taxable?

:shrug:

[NC_Nurse]

7. I doubt it matters much. You can't get squat for that, Squatch.

:D

[Squatch]

10. Oh, I know...

When I was still a civilian, in tip top health, AND using the company's shitty medical plan, my bi-weekly premium was about $300 ($600 monthly).

[NC_Nurse]

18. We are on COBRA temporarily since we're moving - $1100/month!

My husband and kids have NO health problems, I have a couple of MINOR problems.
I can't imagine what they'd want if I was 20 years older!

[Blue Diadem]

71. My neighbors, in their 70's, pay over $900 a month for their supplemental

insurance.

We used Cobra after Dh's first plant closing because we still had a child in HS. After the 2nd plant closing DH was unemployed for a year, there was no way we could afford Cobra so we went without any insurance.

[LiberalFighter]

17. If it is made part of the pension it will be taxable.

Some pensioners will be a little bit luckier than others if they live in a state that does not tax their pensions.

$3600 a year still won't be enough for health care coverage.

[notadmblnd]

42. pensions are subject to federal tax

we pay no state taxes on them though.

[northzax]

125. if they spend it on healthcare

it is deductible anyway, so that's a wash.

[high density]

128. No kidding

That is impossible, even for young healthy people unless you just want catastrophic coverage with a $15,000 deductible. My HMO costs $4,000/yr, and that is with the buying power of a megacorp behind it with thousands of employees.

[Romulox]

3. GM is the bad guy here. All the DUers who would "NEVER buy American"? Blameless. nt

[Squatch]

6. I would never buy GM...because their products are shitty.

Here's a fucking clue to American car manufacturers: make better stuff and then maybe people will buy from you.

[Romulox]

11. Exhibit A.

Dimes to doughnuts you have no clue as to the comparative quality rankings of the major auto manufacturers. :hi:

[Squatch]

15. Exhibit B

Check out this Link

[Romulox]

19. Your chart shows Chevy beating Acura, Nissan, Subaru, VW, and more in quality

Me fail chart reading? That's unpossible!

[Squatch]

29. That same chart shows Porsche, Infiniti, Lexus, Mercedes, Toyota, Mercury, Honda, Ford, Jaguar...

and Audi beating the highest-ranked GM brand. So, yes...you lose.

:P

[Romulox]

38. Which is a good reason to buy a LEXUS instead of Chevy. But not a NISSAN, Acura or a VW

The point being, your chart doesn't support your assertion that GM products are "shitty".

[Squatch]

44. Dude...give it up. I think it's been thoroughly demonstrated

both through the JD Power ratings as well as through anecdotal evidence posted in this thread, that GM makes a shitty product. Additionally, GM's recent cost-cutting measures and abysmal long- and short-term market performance further back up this assertion. So, you can go back on your crusade for the lowly American worker, but nothing is going to change the fact that GM cars are crap.

[Romulox]

49. What nonsense. The JD Power chart you posted shows GM has better quality than most foreign makes

So of course, you now want to ignore that data. You're being ridiculous. :silly:

"So, you can go back on your crusade for the lowly American worker..."

LOL. I love how standing up for American workers earns so much scorn among you "progressive" types. :puke:

[Book Lover]

97. Rom, your attitude is a perfect exemplar of the problem

You are never going to win the "Buy American cars" argument with charts and harsh words. Make American cars sexy, fast, and cool, and new car purchasers will start to take a look. Make it cool to own an American car. Massage the branding strategies. Every automaker's marketing VPs' goal should be for Jeremy Clarkson to say that their car is (finally) cool.

The failure of the former Big Three to properly market and sell their superior product is their failure, not the US purchaser with an ever-tightening wallet.

[Romulox]

102. None of that was my point. Just pointing out the hypocrisy

of those who claim they will never buy a US made auto claiming to lament the fate of the workers they help impoverish.

I don't work in the auto-industry, by the by.

[Clark2008]

104. American cars are sexy.

I'm sorry, but a Mustang makes a Prius look like, well, shit.

[proud2BlibKansan]

83. I agree

Last 2 GM vehicles we have owned were complete crap.

[Clark2008]

103. Really?

I'm guessing you haven't driven one since the 1980s, when that statement was actually true.

[Truth4Justice]

126. Some American cars are OK and you cant beat a GM or FORD Pickup in quality and toughness.

[Kittycat]

12. We had 2 GM cars (only the Olds remains)

After 3.5 years of our $43K NEW SUV breakdown constantly, going through 4 batteries, electrical failures and GM not giving a shit - we traded for a $27K Honda with a 7 year warranty. Better gas mileage, better fit for our family, better price - and oh... The resale on it isn't much less than we paid 8mo ago for it. The Buick on the other hand, we were lucky that we got $14.4K for it. We had to charge it everytime we left the house, and pray that the fucker didn't breakdown before we'd need to come back home.

GM can keep their shitty cars.

The Olds is like 11 years old. It's been a great car, but is only used to go to the train station and back. We'd like to keep it running just for that reason, so we don't take it out much. When it's done - we'll get a hybrid or electric car - if it's foreign made, due to the reluctance of GM/Ford types - then so be it. Fuck them for sticking with Big Oil companies.

[Romulox]

16. Buy what you want. But quit trying to pretend that YOUR actions don't hurt US workers.

:hi:

[Kittycat]

20. If US Companies would think of US Citizens Buying Needs, and stop fucking them over...

Maybe things would be different.

And my Honda was made in Ohio. Thanks.

ETA: And I'm great about buying american whenever and where ever I can. I'm not a Walmart shopper, and I try to frequent mom and pop shops (particularly 'blue' stores). But I'm not going to take it up the ass, because some executives care more about their golden parachute than the consumer they're producing the vehicle for. There's no reason why I should have to pay overly inflated prices for a vehicle that doesn't run, and the service team denies is a Lemon issue - despite electrical recalls, etc.

[Romulox]

21. Right. You don't owe them anything. And they don't owe YOU anything, either.

You don't seem to understand the concept of a two-way street.

"And my Honda was made in Ohio. Thanks"

No it wasn't. It was "assembled" there. There's a big difference.

[Kittycat]

Like I said, Read above.

I've personally owned 5 Fords, and 1 Chevy, 1 Olds & 1 Buick and I'm only 34. I've only had a Mazda (1yr), and this Honda outside of that. The Buick wasn't my first problem US car, but it will be my last until I have confidence again that I would drive off the lot in another gas guzzling, electrical failing piece of shit.

I don't blame the workers at the plant... I blame the people responsible for ensuring that when a problem arises, it's fixed properly - not patched or reprogrammed to reroute the problem through a different system in the car. And that when something becomes an issue - that a real recall is done to ensure it doesn't happen to others.

So take your guilt elsewhere. I have nothing but smiles when I look outside and see my Honda sitting there. I know that if my son has another emergency - I won't have to worry about jumping the car, I can just put him in and go to the hospital. Of course if you're happy with an undependable car, good for you. I have a child with medical needs that I have to worry about.

[Romulox]

36. I'm glad you enjoy your Honda. You just have no room to complain about GM retiree healthcare. nt

And nobody laid any guilt on you but yourself. :hi: I just said GM doesn't owe you anything.

[closeupready]

62. Um, no. A car company owes a decent product in return for tens of thousands of dollars.

A car which is in the body shop every month or six months for one problems or another - that's not fair.

[Romulox]

67. Right. Healthcare doesn't come with that. I suggest you complain to Honda. nt

[closeupready]

72. If a corporation made them promises to do something, it is fair to complain when they renege.

Unless you live in bizarro world, I suppose.

[sudopod]

76. But GM does owe their workers.

Lifetimes don't end at 65. Yet.

[Kittycat]

82. Sorry - no guilt here.

You can keep poking, but I'm not going to have guilt for buying a car that works and has good gas mileage.

As for the Employees and their benefits - Yes I can complain, I can say/do/feel whatever I want. Those employees are retirees - I'm sure many were working when I did buy GM vehicles. They were given a promise by GM, and instead of paying massive payouts to their executives and executive retirees - they should have funded their retirement accounts. In addition, they should have stopped playing partners with Big Oil and the Bush Admin, and created (rephrase - manufactured) more Fuel efficient vehicles. They became their own worst enemy, and now the company itself is paying a price. The employees should have been taken care of though, through funded accounts that GM failed to secure.

[Romulox]

88. Guilt is a word you've used several times. Not me. I just said you aren't owed anything

by GM based on your ownership of a Honda.

[exothermic]

41. There is no difference.

All cars are assembled somewhere...
:eyes:

[Romulox]

46. Yes, there is a difference. It speaks to the percentage of US content

"All cars are assembled somewhere..."

This is bad logic. Everyone is born somewhere. That doesn't mean being "born" means the same thing as being adopted! :rofl:

[exothermic]

85. That is utter nonsensical drivel. No country can manufacture 100% of a car from raw materials.

Never could, never will. Hell, back during the cold war, exports of chromium to the US were some of the Soviet Union's most lucrative trades.

[Romulox]

87. Umm, the definitions are set out by the FTC. Please read about the subject before you lecture!

http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/buspubs/madeusa.shtm

[tchunter]

101. I'm curious about your Honda made in Ohio...

was it made by UAW workers? does Honda allow their employees to organize? I am just as guilty as i drive a camry i inherited but the last car i bought was a Saturn for my mum and she has no problems with it.

[Clark2008]

106. Hondas and Toyotas are so ugly.

Sorry - the have the "personality" of a turnip.

[Hannah Bell]

111. except us & foreign manufacturers are interconnected through

joint ventures, investment, & use of each other's platforms/parts, & have been for years. Furthermore, they manufacture all over the globe, & their profit is as likely to fund new plant in Mexico or China as worker health care here.

The Japanese first took market share on cost/reliability, esp during the first oil shocks.

Is there a purely US auto industry anymore? I don't think so.

Besides which, GM may not be doing well here, but they seem to be doing well overseas. Biggest auto manufacturer in China.

[LanternWaste]

115. Just so I know whether I'm allowed to feel sympathy...

Just so I know whether I'm allowed to feel sympathy for the lost pensions or not within the litmus test you've appeared to set up: is a person who doesn't own any car at all-- whether foreign or domestic allowed to cheer the worker and jeer the management?

Am I hurting the US workers simply by not buying a car? You haven't really addressed that option yet, and my curiosity is piqued-- you've thrown down a moral gauntlet and I'm curious as to which side of Blame/Blamless line of yours I stand on...

[Squatch]

22. I just sold my 1998 Civic

It had 135,000 miles on it, was in decent shape, and listed for $3500. I sold it on Ebay for $4600 :wow:

We are now a 1-car, 1-motorcycle family and we are SO MUCH happier.

[exothermic]

86. I still use my 1982 Civic every day. With 240000 miles.

I often play a little game on the road...look for an American car of that vintage. Ha.

[Cobalt Violet]

105. We have one.

1982 olds with similar miles.

[exothermic]

122. That reminds me, I have an axe that belonged to Abe Lincoln!

It has had 3 new handles and 2 new heads...

:D

[NC_Nurse]

27. My experience with GM cars has been just that, dismal.

I just sold my dad's Chrysler 300m. I had it for 1.5 years (got it with only 55,000 miles on it) and had it in repairs at LEAST 4 times.
Same with the GM minivans I owned back in the 80's and 90's - always fucking up.

I have also owned Toyotas and Hondas during the same years. They would be in the shop once or twice in 8-10 years of driving.
My dad always buys American (he can afford to, he has the time and the money to fix them constantly). I have learned through
experience that I cannot afford to.

[Romulox]

40. Chrysler and GM are two separate companies.

"I have learned through experience that I cannot afford to."

And GM can't afford to pay for your healthcare. It seems simple to me, but many people seem to want it both ways. :shrug:

[NC_Nurse]

50. I've had GM's too. Oldsmobile Cutlass, Chevy Cavalier...

I hear what you're saying, but a company that makes unreliable products usually goes out of business.

I do not have the funds to spend on constant repairs and they expect me to show up at work...not be stranded by a
broken vehicle chronically.

I'm sorry that this is happening to the employees, but the company needed to make changes LONG ago.

According to my dad, they make parts of a lot other manufacturers cars, like BMW's and other "foreign" brands...
also, Toyotas and Hondas are now made here by Americans. So I think the whole paradigm is changing anyway.

[Romulox]

55. Look upthread. JD Powers shows that GM quality is better than most foreign makes. nt

[NC_Nurse]

65. I know, my dad reads Road and Track and Motor Trend - he's a retired

engineer. Unfortunately, the proof is in the pudding.

He's going to give me his Cadillac DTS next, he bought a Saturn Aura...
He can afford to get new cars and loves a "performance car" (he wants the new Pontiac G8), but
I am always floored by the low gas mileage. Since I don't drive much, it won't matter at present.
I LOVE to drive the cars he gives me (Thank God he does - there is no way I could afford a new car right now.)
because they handle so well, but filling them up and repairing them costs a LOT.

Did I mention my dad is a car enthusiast?

[closeupready]

68. JD Powers says? So what? What does Toby Keith say? Carly Fiorina?

When someone says "my personal experience is this and that," they are not talking about JD Powers or other consumer rating agencies' opinions.

[Romulox]

70. Anecdotal evidence is not meaningful in these sorts of discussions. nt

[closeupready]

73. You may not be interested in anecdotal evidence, but I am.

Is it meaningful? I don't honestly care. I just like reading about people's experiences.

[Romulox]

89. Anecdotal evidence is not STATISTICALLY meaningful.

I am not denigrating people's experiences, but they are not a good indication of the over-all objective reality. In the first place, most people don't complain when things go right...

[Clark2008]

107. OK - my personal experience is that my American car is

never in the shop (it is now, but only because it was rear-ended - that's not a mechanical problem) and my husband's foreign POS has been in the shop FOUR times in the past six months.

There.

[closeupready]

108. Didn't you hear? Anecdotes are statistically MEANINGLESS!

:rofl:

[SidDithers]

74. That should be better than **some** foreign makes...

And Toyota and Honda, both rated above GM, probably have more vehicles on US roads than all other "foreign" auto makers combined.

Sid

[Romulox]

90. You didn't correct the poster who stated, unequivocally, that GM cars are "shit"

But you correct my limited statement that GM has better quality than most of the foreign marks on the JD Powers chart that Squatch offered in evidence of the fact that GM cars are "shit" (apparently without reading or understanding it)?

Strange that you take issue with my correction of his broad-bush assertion, but not the broad-brush assertion itself.

[elehhhhna]

113. JD Powers scores can be manipulated and I personally don't trust them.

[carlyhippy]

133. I have a newer Chevy with 60,000 miles on it, already had to replace the head gasket

just got it out of the shop, not impressed so far.....
I had a Camaro in the 80's, it was the worst vehicle I have owned to date as far as major repairs

The best so far, besides my Xterra, has been the 3 Dodge vehicles, a pickup and 2 cars.

[melm00se]

60. yeah

and I have a Chevy Silverado pickup truck that has 150K miles and other than regular maintenance items I have had zero problems.

[DS1]

37. Chevy don't have any cars which interest me.

This is the fault of the executives, who still vote to give themselves raises and bonus packages each and every year.

Why should I support a company I don't like by buying products I don't like in order to boost some executive's child's trust fund?

[Romulox]

39. That's fine. It just leaves you zero room to complain about GM's retiree health plan. nt

[DS1]

45. I have to buy a company's product before I can complain about it?

You're getting silly.

[Romulox]

51. You have little moral authority to complain about GM retiree healthcare, if you didn't contribute

anything to it yourself.

You "can" complain about anything you want, all day long, however. :hi:

[Name removed]

56. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

57. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Kittycat]

84. I'm beginning to think he is... Because..

Even when you've owned 8 US Made cars, and had bad experiences great enough to drive you away from them all together - he doesn't feel that you have any right making an opinion. Apparently, only happy GM Car owners have a right to complain.

Well, I still own one GM vehicle (Olds Intrigue) - and Olds is essentially out of business. I guess by default of that, and my second RELIABLE vehicle being a Honda - I don't have a right to say GM fucked up either.

[MercutioATC]

78. So if R.J. Reynolds did this, nonsmokers would have no "moral authority"?

:eyes:

[Squatch]

53. "getting"?

I think we're waaaaaaaaaay past that point.

[DS1]

63. Profile = Detroit

We're probably dealing with the GM's VP of Interior Plastics, here.

[Romulox]

66. You know, this post is beyond asinine.

Anybody from Michigan is now a suspect! Are you now, (or have you ever been) a GM VP of Interior Plastics ( :wtf: )?

THEY WALK AMONG US!!!

[DS1]

69. You're not respecting my diverse opinion!

SHAME!

[Romulox]

92. *I* didn't accuse you of having a nefarious scheme based on where you live, though...

BTW, my profile says DEARBORN, not Detroit. And GM isn't headquartered in Dearborn, though another automaker is. :hi:

[pampango]

58. At DU we have a "constitutional" (internet-based) right to complain about US corporations.

:)

Your providing a nuanced view of one such large corporation and its actions, simply makes life more complicated for all of us. ;)

It seems to me that GM is symptomatic of some large US companies that have hit hard times and are not apparently in line for a government bail-out. They are loaded with retirees who labored long and hard for the company in the "good ol' days" and who now expect the pensions and benefits promised to them by the company when the times were good. (I understand that the automobile companies traded lower wage increases for additional retirement benefits during labor negotiations in those "good ol' days" which pushed the some costs into the future (now)).

Absent some bail-out (corporate welfare, only "good" cw this time) or a reversal in GM's fortunes in the car market, the outlook for funding of all of the obligations to its retirees looks pretty grim to me.

[Romulox]

64. Point well taken. I was talking about a logical/moral "right" to complain.

"Your providing a nuanced view of one such large corporation and its actions, simply makes life more complicated for all of us. "

I've noticed diversity of opinion is not well respected around here, especially when that opinions reminds the "new Left" of all of the "old Left" that they've jettisoned.

[ForrestGump]

138. You shouldn't talk about things that you plainly do not understand.

Like logic.

[sudopod]

77. So if someone doesn't buy a GM POS they have no right to comment?

BULLSHIT.

[Romulox]

93. They have no right to demand GM supply people healthcare, imo. nt

[Indenturedebtor]

123. They absolutely do considering what GM has done with it's profits

Please don't try to legitimize the RW meme that blames the consumer and the worker for a company's failure to honor their contract with the worker.

GM has had plenty of profits over the years that could have raised worker's wages, and set aside funds for healthcare benefits etc.

Instead they've done everything possible to suck money up for their executives, offshore, outsource, dump workers into subsidiaries that they intended on bankrupting so they could "offload" pensions and other obligations.

GM produces only slightly more US content than Toyota and Nissan for example... here's a list of the top ten most "domestically produced" cars

http://www.cars.com/go/advice/Story.jsp?section=top&subject=ami&story=amMade0808

The whole "buy American buy GM" meme is utter bullshit. When GM was hugely profitable they STILL worked to screw their employees and the American public through their lobbying efforts.

When I was working for Chrysler I remember them asking me to petition congress to get rid of CAFE standards. There's your responsible Corporate Citizen for you... shortly thereafter they were purchased by a private equity firm who promptly laid off a ton of workers, "restructured" benefits, etc.

Let me ask you - what would happen to you if you signed a contract with a bank to pay your mortgage for 30 years, and in the 29th year you decided that you didn't feel like paying it anymore? Do you think the bank would listen to an argument that stated "But you could give me a job and pay me enough to pay the mortgage!" would help you? Corporations do whatever they want to us and are never held accountable. It's not the workers fault that GM was run EXTREMELY poorly, and that they squandered their profits on CEO benefits and building factories in Mexico. Let the executives and share holders suck up the losses instead of allowing GM to reneg on their contract with their workers.

Blame the consumer? Rediculous.

[fascisthunter]

48. Maybe GM should create better more feul efficient vehicles

blaming consumers for a failing business is pathetic right wing subservient bullshit. Never expect Americans to be loyal to a company... especially when their bottom line isn't loyal to anyone, NOT even their own workers.

By your way of thinking, maybe we should Nationalize GM too.

[Fading Captain]

75. GM is the bad guy, and so are people who buy foreign cars

nm

[mdmc]

81. I always buy pro-union merchandise

I don't see GM as pro-union. I can't afford any of their items anyway.

[Romulox]

94. Unions represent workers, not corporations. nt

[carlyhippy]

134. Even if every American would have bought a GM product

GM exects still would have done this, stop the bleeding so they can have more money in their pocket, so hey, cut the old people loose, no problem.

[flvegan]

135. Much of this is on the shoulders of GMAC, if I'm not mistaken.

Shitty finance company, burning through $1 billion a day...those types of thing tear you down. It's not just about the cars. My mortgage isn't with GMAC but I'm paying it, so I guess this is my fault.

[warren pease]

136. That's not the goddamn point...

The point is that these people and their former employer entered into a contractual agreement -- apparently by mutual consent, not coercion -- and one party unilaterally broke that agreement without seeking or getting the consent of the other.

And despite blatantly welshing on a legally binding contract, it's very unlikely that GM will suffer any consequences at all, even though it's absolutely screwed these people to the wall. That $300 a month isn't going to go very far when these people try to buy medical insurance on the open market as individuals, rather than as members of some made-for-insurance group.

Plus, at retirement age, most of them will have preexisting conditions that exclude them from any standard medical insurance policy. That means they'll have to try and get into one of those private insurer/state-subsidized partnerships that insure high risk clients for obscene monthly premiums, deductibles and copays. Or they can use the ER as their primary care facility -- just like most of those 50 million and climbing uninsured do in this here "greatest country in the world."

Further, the slack the law grants these "fictitious persons" is only comprehensible if you envision a gigantic river of money -- hundreds of millions of dollars of it to be given away by lobbyists and other elements of the corporate bribocracy -- flowing non-stop into the overloaded briefcases of tens of thousands of local, state and national politicians.

In return, these corrupt bastards show their gratitude by giving their corporate employers every damn thing they want -- tax breaks, privatization schemes, de facto monopolies, completely absence of regulatory oversight, freedom to violate any environmental laws that will allow them to chisel another penny's profit by ruining an entire ecosystem. You name it, corporate America gets to violate it... with complete impunity.

Hell, they can even run a massive illegal surveillance and data capturing ring at the behest of spymaster Cheney and get Congress to pass a special law immunizing them for their crimes. That's some representative government they've got. Unfortunately, to represent the corporate interests that enrich them, Congress must also mis-represent the rest of us peasants.

Corporations are pathological by nature, as is any zero-sum entity that encourages stealing, cheating, lying and then denying any responsibility for the damage they do as long as their needs are being met.

So it's not about buying a Chevy or a Honda. It's not about whether US manufacturers are shitty marketers. It's not about whether their products are sexy.

It's about honoring a commitment, putting a corrupt system in place that allows them to just flip off anybody they want any time they want, getting legal cover at all levels of government, and then doing the same damn thing time and again because they're always going to fuck people over if it increases profits and as long as they can get away with it.

That's how corporations are wired, that's what they're in business for and they stopped caring a long time ago about any human consequences -- if they ever cared at all. Kind of like the Bushies in that regard.


wp

[Batgirl]

137. Between 1993-1998, GM made a profit of $27.5 billion and cut 39,000 hourly jobs.

The American public was buying GM cars, trucks and SUVs hand over fist but that didn't prevent the outsourcing of American autoworkers' jobs.

I do remember a time though when it was quite common to encounter this notion you're espousing -- particularly here in Flint where people so desperately wanted it to be true. Yes, there was a time when you would hear that theory being recited as though it had been handed down on stone tablets -- that if the car-buying public would just line up and do their part by purchasing cars with U.S. nameplates, then U.S. autoworker jobs would be safe.

How quaint to hear it being brought up now all these years after it was proven to be so sadly incorrect. Sort of like hair bands and so many other embarrassingly silly relics of the 1980s.

[dkf]

5. Wow. This is bad. I was counting on them to be an ally in the single payer fight.

[raccoon]

13. Seems like to me this happening would make them allies in the single payer fight.

Those who still are lucky enough to have group coverage, IME, usually are lukewarm about single payer, if not downright opposed to it.

[dkf]

25. The employees yes, but GM seems to have given up the fight.

Now they just leave their retirees in the cold.

[northzax]

124. the employees already have single payer

and a very popular one at that, it's called Medicare.

[PassingFair]

8. Heard this yesterday (from a PRO-union) co-worker...

This particular bit of nasty isn't touching
the union members.

[LiberalFighter]

26. It has already touched us and likely to affect us more as time goes on.

[Libby2]

33. Yes! It absolutely has touched us

and keeps touching us.

[PassingFair]

43. Her father is retired GM union employee.

Grandfather's GM paid insurance pays
for HER daughter. (She's not sure why
they continue to do this, as her daughter
is over 18).

[mainegreen]

9. $300 dollars buys you 6 days of healthcare coverage in Maine.

[Ganja Ninja]

14. I worked for Pontiac Motors for 13 years.

I'm so glad I left them behind back in '88.

[tridim]

114. I hope you weren't responsible for the Fiero.

;)

[Ganja Ninja]

130. No I didn't work on any of those.

I worked on a machining line machining engine blocks then toward the end I was moved over to engine assembly. Screwing on the same part every 15 seconds, day after day, month after month, year after year until mercifully I was laid off. Then I moved to Florida and I've never looked back or missed it for one second.

[predfan]

23. Perhaps these retirees will shift their attention, and their anger,

to their new healthcare plan..........Medicare..........and raise holy hell with the program to make it as good as we taxpayers funding it deserve it to be.

[malaise]

24. One more reason why Social Security must not be privatized

This is unbelievable.

[BeyondGeography]

28. Maybe now they can find it in their old white guy hearts to vote for a Democrat in November

Having no doubt pulled the lever for the you're-on-your-own party for decades prior...

[billyoc]

30. Non-union workers' benefits can be taken away without so much as a "by your leave".

Why all the shock?

[Oceansaway]

31. John Deere did this crap too.....

to some of it's salaried retirees.....i was union and our contract is up Oct of 2009.....

we could get it stuck up our asses too.....

[Not Me]

32. Businesses are realizing the mistake they made in the early '90's

by not supporting Hillary's (and others') proposals for moving health care to the government. What GM is doing, in essence, is telling people to go for Medicare, and "we'll pay the Part B premium".

[Blue_Tires]

91. +1

thanks for brining that up...acutally automakers quietly realized that mistake some years ago, but no RW CEO would ever admit to being wrong, much less pushing a program that would leave some other fellow mega-corps (insurance) up the creek....Besides, at that time, gas was cheap, profits were decent, cars and SUVs were selling well, and customers were always wanting the next new model -- There was a culture of delusion in Detroit that these days would continue in the forseeable future...

[Ilsa]

35. I really don't know: how "bad" is Medicare?

Medicare is all many people have. Is it really that bad? I don't know.

[Tracer]

47. Not bad at all.

I have it, plus a Blue Cross supplemental at around $86/month.

Since the supplemental kicked in on February 1 of this year, I have paid $0.00 in medical expenses.

And I've had a lot of expenses.

[trof]

54. Here's what I pay:

Medicare - $96.40/mo.
Medicare supplemental - $138.40/mo.
(This covers the 'everyday' stuff not covered by Medicare like doctor's visits, lab work, etc. Basic Medicare is basically a catastrophic policy.)
Medicare prescription drug plan - $33.60/mo.
Plus a co-pay of $10 to $75 on each prescription. That's for a 90 day supply.

Total premium monthly costs - $268.40
Pretty good compared to the monthly cost for most other health insurance plans.
Except...my contract with TWA called for FREE medical and dental.
When TWA went under all that was gone too.

[Ilsa]

100. It's not bad, but for some, that's a pretty big expense every month.

At least the supplemental and Rx plans help some. Max of $75/drug seems high, even considering the cost of some drugs. I hope there is an annual max/cap for that.

[trof]

59. Oh yeah...$135 annual deductible on supplemental.

[fascisthunter]

52. Always the Same Shit.... always screwing the worker

then, blaming consumers.... disgusting.

[Gold Metal Flake]

79. Those retirees just need to vote in more Republickers.

That will fix it.

[mdmc]

80. Can't they all go on the public dole?

Medicaid is probably much better then their GM insurance.

Why would they expect a corporation to care about them:shrug:

[LeftHander]

95. Once off the books in a group plan...prexisting conditions

will kick in if they break continuous group coverage.

[SammyWinstonJack]

96. Is this a great Country, or what?

:rofl:

[knitter4democracy]

98. Yet another stone in Michigan's path to hell.

Thanks. We really needed that.

[book_worm]

99. Hey Romulox, I have a 2006 Chevy Trail Blazer, am I allowed to complain?

It's a piece of shit. And Yes, even though it's a piece of shit I do feel sorry about these workers. It's the management in control who make the big decisions not the workers.

[closeupready]

110. No, because your experience is statistically MEANINGLESS.

You need to get JD Power to vouch for you before we can accept your complaint. Have a nice day! :)

:rofl:

[Romulox]

117. You are being silly. Anecdotal evidence is not meaningful in assessing overall quality.

It has nothing in the world to do with whether someone has a quality problem with their vehicle or not. It's difficult to know if you don't understand this, or if you're just playing the fool. :shrug:

[closeupready]

119. I'm being a little silly, but then so were you. But let's set that aside.

If someone consumes an approved dietary supplement and later dies suspiciously, as if by poison, that may not be statistically meaningful, but it is by no means useless information. Likewise, if someone posted, "we ate at the salad bar and Restaurant XYZES at 3:00 p.m. on Saturday, and later got diarrhea," and another diner had the same experience, those might be anecdotes, but that information could be useful in establishing a cause-effect relationship.

So please don't dismiss members' negative experiences with GM cars, posted here, as "just a useless anecdote." It's an arrogant thing to respond with.

[Romulox]

120. The conversation surrounded the overall quality of the vehicles sold in the US market

Do you seriously believe there are no stories of "lemon law" recalls of Toyota vehicles? Of course there are. Do these stories prove much about the overall quality of Toyota vehicles? Not much.

"So please don't dismiss members' negative experiences with GM cars"

I'm sorry, but you absolutely must dismiss such experiences, if they are offered to prove the overall quality of the vehicles a manufacturer produces.

"It's an arrogant thing to respond with."

It's basic math/logic. :silly:

[closeupready]

132. let's just agree to disagree.

:crazy: :hi:

[Bluebear]

109. So who can they "buy health care" from if the have a pre-existing condition? SHAME ON GM. nt

[TornadoTN]

112. I have owned GM cars - horrible cars, so its no wonder - yet I still feel bad for the little guy

I feel bad for the employees, but seriously, there seems to be zero quality control at GM anymore.

4 years ago I purchased a Silverado pick-up for our farm work (my second job). Broken axle after two months and that was without even having used it off-road! (I don't take my trucks off-road or haul anything until we've hit 3,000 miles and changed the oil).Fixed that and it was plagued with transmission trouble twice, with one complete transmission overhaul. Paid it off and bought a Toyota Tundra earlier this year - zero troubles with it at all and the superior quality of the product is extremely evident from bumper to bumper.

My wife had a Saturn VUE and pretty much the same thing with it. We had transmission problems from the get-go, with one complete replacement. Beyond that, the electrical system was in complete disarray. Dead batteries galore, two alternators and a starter - you get the picture. We traded it in and bought two Camry hybrids - one for her and one for my primary job that requires me to commute several miles. We're actually saving more money now on gas and car related costs compared to years past - and that's with two car payments and a "gas guzzler" for farm/hauling work.

The workers are getting the shaft for sure, but there are some serious breakdowns somewhere in the hierarchy of GM and the "American" car makers. I just can't justify buying an inferior product (in my experience) that is going to be a pain in my side. Toyota might be a foreign company, but they still employ Americans and invest quite a bit in R&D into alternative energy solutions. Not perfect by any means, but its a compromise that I will take until someone with some sense starts running GM (and Ford for that matter).

[Lydia Leftcoast]

116. I wonder how many of these "salaried retirees" are the same people

who decided that union assembly workers were "too expensive," quality control was "too expensive," and figuring out what Americans actually needed was "too expensive."

Not to be callous about their plight, but did they ever spare a moment of regret for all the blue collar workers whose lives they ruined when they and their bean-counting colleagues decided that it would be more "cost-conscious" to manufacture cars in Mexico?

[Trillo]

118. Why weren't "health benefits" vested (in the pension plan)?

Someone on the take, even 'back then'?

[Ganja Ninja]

131. We're talking white collar here not blue collar.

Salaried employees get what ever GM decides to give them. They aren't part of the union.

[HCE SuiGeneris]

121. And the GOP continues to shun Universal health care?

WTF is wrong with these people? Our system, as it currently stands, is bankrupting the middle class, and killing those who cannot afford to even get a checkup.

[ljm2002]

127. This perfectly illustrates the unequal protection under the law...

...between persons and corporate persons.

Namely, if a person signs their name on the dotted line and makes an AGREEMENT to do something, that is a binding contract. If their circumstances change, they don't get to go back and unilaterally change the terms of what they agreed to -- for one current example, just take a look at the rise in evictions because of people unable to make their mortgage payments -- not to mention the lack of sympathy those people get because they signed up for something it turned out they could not afford. But if a huge corporation's circumstances change, then they get to rewrite the agreement to their own benefit, and simply quit paying what they promised to pay to their retirees.

Really sums it up, right there.

[tismyself]

129. and it's not just corporations either

In the town where I live, our water department is a bizarre mixture of public/private. One of the perks was supposed to be the water department employees getting a percentage of the profits and also that the department (with its private hat on) would assume the financial risks, as in, not raising the rates etc.

Well, we're in a drought at the moment, water restrictions are mandatory complete with fines and fees, however since we have all conserved too much water, the water department just raised our bills by quite a lot because they aren't making enough money. I wish I were making this up.