Is it really true that oil co's keep applying to build new refineries, but

[napi21]

the EPA regs are stopping them? Some nitwit on Thom Hartmann's show is arguing that point now.

[hobbit709]

1. BS

[Ian David]

2. Keep listening. Thom will shoot him down soon.

You may have to wait until after the commercial, while Thom uses the time to do some googling.

[Hydra]

3. I haven't seen the numbers

But from what I've heard, that's pure BS.

On the other hand, were it true, it wouldn't make a difference on the US supply- exports of refined fuel are at a record high while refining capacity is only at around 85%- down from previous years.

[cherokeeprogressive]

4. Not necessarily EPA regs alone, I bet NIMBY has a huge part in it too. n/t

[Warpy]

5. It's false.

They haven't applied for permits. In fact, there was a push by Big Oil to buy up independent refineries across the country in the 90s in order to mothball them. That way they control production of refined products with no competition. Were they to need more capacity, they'd do better to retool a mothballed refinery than to find a new plot of land to buy at a still inflated price.

It's just more anti environmentalist lying from the right wing stink tanks.

[Finishline42]

6. As someone said before - BS

In the last 30 years over half of the refineries have been shut down. Some because they didn't have the money to stay up to date, but some because of the over capacity when all the oil company mergers in the last 10 years.

Refineries are running about 85% capacity.

Expansions of existing refineries equal to one new refinery a year.

[Greyhound]

7. No. In fact Janet Napolitano invited them to please build a refinery in Arizona

and they ridiculed and ignored her.

[Bozita]

8. Marathon Oil refinery approved for $1.9B expansion in Detroit

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080620/BUSINESS/80620036/1019/Business06

Marathon Oil approved for $1.9B expansion in Detroit
BY TINA LAM • FREE PRESS STAFF WRITER • JUNE 20, 2008

Marathon Oil, which operates Michigan's only refinery, won permission today from state environmental officials for its planned $1.9-billion expansion in southwest Detroit.

Detroit's City Council already approved a package of $176 million in tax exemptions and the company has already held a job fair.

The company made a number of pledges to try to reduce the effect of extra particulate matter the refinery will emit in an area already thick with factories.

The Department of Environmental Quality said it approved the necessary air permits for the expansion because of those promises, including street sweeping of paved roads in the area to keep particulates off the streets, retrofitting Detroit school buses to capture particulate matter from diesel exhaust so children aren't as heavily exposed as they otherwise would be, and maintaining four air monitoring stations near the refinery, making the data public.

Marathon has also promised that 51% of the 135 permanent jobs at the expanded refinery will be set aside for Detroit residents.

The $1.9-billion expansion will add 15% capacity, from 100,000 barrels of oil per day to 115,000 barrels, to accommodate tar sands oil from Canada.

The company acknowledged in the past that the expansion will increase air emissions by 10% over current levels, still below state and federal requirements.

At hearings on the tax breaks and air permits, some residents of southwest Detroit said no more industry should be located in their area because it's already jammed with pollution-producing factories. Others said the jobs were crucial to the city.

Marathon has said it hoped to have the expansion on line by the end of 2010.

[napi21]

10. I understand they havwe been expanding their current facilities, but

haven't been able to build any new ones.

I read a memo a few weeks ago that was an internal memo from the refiery group, released via FIA. It was from some years ago when gas prices were fairly low. They said they would never be able to increase the price of gas because refineries had way too much capacity. Not long thereafter, they shut down a lot of refineries, and of course got their wish. HIGH PRICES!

I can understand the NIMBY complaint, mainly because of the fire & explosion risks, but there are thousands of acres of vacant land, far enough away from population that that risk is negligible. I think the oil companies want to keep running at close to max just to keep making their billions!

[islandmkl]

9. old, but some info...

http://www.citizen.org/print_article.cfm?ID=11829

[ThoughtCriminal]

11. When these nitwits say there haven't been any new refineries

built in 30 years or so and that is why gas prices are high, I point out:

1. There haven't been any new states added to the USA in almost 50 years, yet somehow population has grown. Obviously, existing refineries have and can grow capacity.

2. Most of the price of gasoline is connected to the price of crude oil.

3. Republicans controlled Congress for most of 1994-2006, plus the White House since 2000. If this is the real problem, what have they done about it in all those years?

4. No, the EPA is not the problem

http://www.citizen.org/cmep/energy_enviro_nuclear/electricity/Oil_and_Gas/articles.cfm?ID=11829

"Environmental regulations are not preventing new refineries from being built in the U.S. From 1975 to 2000, the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) received only one permit request for a new refinery. And in March, EPA approved Arizona Clean Fuels’ application for an air permit for a proposed refinery in Arizona. In addition, oil companies are regularly applying for – and receiving – permits to modify and expand their existing refineries."

"Oil companies have exploited their strong market position to intentionally restrict refining capacity by driving smaller, independent refiners out of business. A congressional investigation uncovered internal memos written by the major oil companies operating in the U.S. discussing their successful strategies to maximize profits by forcing independent refineries out of business, resulting in tighter refinery capacity. From 1995-2002, 97% of the more than 920,000 barrels of oil per day of capacity that have been shut down were owned and operated by smaller, independent refiners. Were this capacity to be in operation today, refiners could use it to better meet today’s reformulated gasoline blend needs."

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

12. I heard that oil companies are investing their profits in buying back their own stock

On C-SPAN there was a Democratic congressman this morning who stated on the House floor that the oil companies are using their massive profits to buy back their own stock instead of investing it in repairing and expanding their refineries or exploring for oil on their oil-lease land.

He said that the result of buying back their own stock is to drive up prices, as it increases scarcity of oil stocks on the market and jacks up demand for high value oil stocks among investors.

Has anyone heard this argument before? Is there any proof of oil companies using their profits in this way?

EDIT TO ADD:

I did a little googling on this and found an article at Bloomberg that states that Exxon actually used more of its profits to buy back their own stock in 2007 than they did in exploring for oil or investing in R&D to develop alternative energy. And this is apparently the case with most of the world's oil companies.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601039&sid=akIQ2arQB4Qs&refer=columnist_pauly

[islandmkl]

13. a little googling...

http://www.tompaine.com/articles/2006/06/06/no_new_refineries.php

[mmonk]

14. Turn off your radio.

It's the talking point on rightwing cult radio. That's why the call from the nutjob.

[louis-t]

15. This is what I say when some idiot repeats the talking point.

"So, you're telling me that the oil companies are standing in line to get permits, so that they can spend billions on a low profit refinery, so that oil prices can go DOWN? Do you hear yourself?"

[RB TexLa]

16. There isn't a need for refineries, if there were they would have been built

we have enough refined products to meet demand.